French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595073#Comment_122595073

And they accuse others of lying.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595089#Comment_122595089

no i definitely agree that an outright ban would definitely be circumvented one way or another and look the internet being the internet those who want it will find it. Of course porn like what the husband in this case was watching isn’t available on pornhub like!

I can’t comment on how people find it attractive or get off to a woman suffering though, I suspect it’s because the porn industry seems to be framing women as objects for men’s desire. If you think about it that’s sort of the message they try to portray in the videos.

I think any effort to limit the exposure to young teenagers especially is vital. When you imagine a developing brain being exposed to that sort of behaviour and ideas is not good. Like you said yourself (and same goes for myself) the scenes are at times truly horrific but when you’re an impressionable young lad, well you’re sort of fcuked then? Not to excuse it but I think more needs to be done to remind young people especially that this is not real and shouldn’t be reenacted or expected of anyone!

porn is a bit like the WWE of sex, it’s meant for entertainment but unfortunately some people view it as the bar to reach. If my sex isn’t like porn then it’s wrong— but it’s actually porn that is wrong

also I’m definitely familiar with the sexy mags you mention 🤣 in fairness those were often just women in sexy clothes (or none) and being provocative right, they were not subjected to physical torment or abuse like we see today.

Like you said porn has evolved from a fairly harmless thing to quite violent and aggressive depictions of sex.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595090#Comment_122595090

Here's what you said:

I would also like to finish off by asking anyone who’s been the victim of or suspects an incident of sexual assault towards another please contact the gardai and don’t let the perpetrator get away with it as that further emboldens them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594330#Comment_122594330

Can you really not see that when a woman who has been raped decides she needs to go to the police in order to protect other women, that's one thing, but that someone telling her, as you suggested, that if she didn't go she was "further emboldening" rapists, that's quite another?

The former is a very brave and worthwhile thing to do. As long as it's her own decision. The latter is an attempt at guilt-tripping/manipulating her by literally telling her that if she doesn't put herself through all that, it will be her fault if another woman is raped.

I think it comes from not understanding just how retraumatising rape cases can be for the victim.

I'm not entirely sure if the faux-outrage from some posters on here - not you TBF - busy pretending that I said I'd tell women NOT to report it (which TBH if another woman told me that's what she'd do, I'd understand her, and would not criticise) is because they really would be that tin-eared when faced with a close family member who'd been raped, or whether they just have some point to win on the internet. I hope it's the latter - for the women in their lives.

Raichų

@volchitsa

I won’t edit the post again to add this but it would be fair to say porn is little more than legalised prostitution.

I remember a family guy (of all things) clip where two people were about to have sex, the man hands the woman money, cops burst in and the guy points to a video camera and says “no we’re shooting a porno” cops just say oh sorry, carry on.

The whole “joke” as it were being of course that in the absence of a video camera paying a woman to have sex is illegal, but if it’s recorded then it’s just making porn. Fcuking wild but alas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594988#Comment_122594988

As a subsequent step, maybe anonymous access to the internet in general needs to be limited in some way. Not perhaps posting one's real name (although I remember that that was commonplace initially) but perhaps that one's real identity needs to be available somewhere for instances where crimes are suspected.

This should be the primary goal of any framework designed for online safety going forward, if they can engineer AI bots to deliver human like responses in any scenario maybe it's time they developed digital fingerprints for humans. I don't mean an IP address which can be easily overridden by a vpn but in a non fungible token unique digital identifier kind of way.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595120#Comment_122595120

I can appreciate it might come across as guilt tripping however unintentional.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595170#Comment_122595170

Thanks for that. I realise it was unintended, but I think it's important for people (men in particular) to acknowledge just what it requires of a woman to go through a rape trial and that it's not something that anyone else should push her into. Her own mental health has to come first.

I'm concerned for example that Gisele Pelicot will be destroyed by the coming four months of trial - especially as I'm not at all certain that the accused, other than her husband, will get very severe punishments.

Really really hope I'm wrong in that. She wouldn't be the first though.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240827-french-rugby-players-rape-accuser-suicide

https://theconversation.com/suicides-show-how-justice-system-fails-rape-victims-23677

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594536#Comment_122594536

Fcuk yourself OP to be honest.

I hadn't seen this before. Really?

And there was me thinking maybe you were one of the OK ones on here. 🙄

OK I'll remember that.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595239#Comment_122595239

I wouldn’t take it too personally, but I’ll concede that was unnecessary nevertheless. I became quite annoyed indeed when it appeared you were expecting everyone but yourself to “fix” the problem.

Evidently that’s not the case and I was wholly mistaken. I apologise for the comment above.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595278#Comment_122595278

Apology accepted. This is what happens when posters who are posting in bad faith deliberately misrepresent what is being said.

Maybe next time read what the person has said rather than what another poster says they've said? 😁

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594995#Comment_122594995

There is nothing in my post personally abusing you, and if you think that report the posts. If anything I said is of the standard of personal abuse to you, you would have a lot of things to explain to how you have spoken to and about me in this thread.

Ohh Overheal…

The other poster wasn’t guilt tripping stop deflecting because you can’t handle criticism dear the only one guilt tripping here is you, guilt tripping men everywhere the world over

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594535#Comment_122594535

Bold emphasis my own. volchista might have missed it, or overlooked it, and I might be (almost) blind as a bat, but there's nothing wrong with my ears. Even still I had to check three times to be sure I'd heard that correctly. It's the kind of dismissive epithet I'd expect from one of the "equal rights and equal lefts" crowd, certainly I didn't expect it from a guy who I always imagined would never stoop that low. That earlier sad indictment of men I mentioned? That's an example of it - the attitude that comes out in retaliation when you've been dealt what volchista has to be commended for in the opening post - a frighteningly accurate blow delivered to the male ego. volchista has many times cut the legs out from under me before, and not once, ever, would it occur to me to be so thoughtlessly, let alone deliberately condescending when I knew I had no answer. Your condescending response was a reminder of what volchista would call a "pick-me" girl - portrays themselves as a supporter of women, until their performative nonsense hits close to home and they actually have to support a woman; then the mask doesn't just slip - it flies right off.

And then they go into PR disaster recovery mode -

She added: "It's painful to realise that, while I thought I was self-aware, I had actually internalised the dominant male agenda that asks us to defend it no matter what, protect it no matter what, baby it no matter what."

Lena Dunham says defending accused writer was 'a terrible mistake' (bbc.com)

It's exactly for this reason that volchista worded the opening post the way she did, because it flips the accepted narrative of responsibility for committing rape on its head - instead of the thousands of discussions there have been in the last 20 years on this site alone, focussed on holding women and girls responsible when they are raped by a man, and pretending it's women and girls' responsibility to shield themselves from men and limit their participation in public life, never share a space as equals with men cos you just never know, that looming threat is always there the closer women get to being perceived as a threat to male dominance in civilised society - they will be put back in their place through being kept fearful. That's why I said fair play to volchista for the opening post - because it was necessary, and it could only come from a girl or a woman because they are the only people who are capable of describing it from their perspective, and putting the responsibility for the commission of rape back where it belongs - on the men who choose to commit rape.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595016#Comment_122595016

The false narrative in this line ^ is that there is an either/or: preventing future rapes implies comprehensive strategies for doing so, which will invariably include reporting rapists (men or women rapists) who commit rape, so they are prevented from becoming repeat offenders.

No, that's where you keep going wrong - introducing all sorts of whataboutery, strawman argument, goalpost shifting nonsense, all because you can't address the premise of the proposal in the opening post. It's really doing a number on your cognitive processes to think about the issue from anything other than the perspective which portrays women and girls as being responsible for the behaviour of men who choose to commit rape, and women and girls must simply accept simplistic nonsense narratives like:

• "there are bad people in the world!" (well thank you Captain Obvious for that astute observation)
• "!f women and girls don't want to be raped, they shouldn't behave like <insert whatever the fcuk you like here, because the rationale defies all logic and reason> because that's why X was raped (thank you, Captain Hindsight)
• "if girls and women who are raped by men don't report it, they're responsible when other girls and women are raped" (thank you, Captain Ársehole)

Annnd then there's the George Hook defence - (the one that doesn't just shift the responsibility onto the victim, but keeps the man who commits the offence of rape, out of view at the same time)

“But is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?” he said.

George Hook apologises for comments about rape case – The Irish Times

George Hook doubles down on rape comments that got him sacked as he hits out at 'cancel culture' - Irish Mirror Online

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595156#Comment_122595156

Be very careful of the potential unintended consequences of what you are looking for.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595756#Comment_122595756

As dystopian as it is I think we're already in that place.

volchitsa

I see Hadley Freeman wrote an excellent article about this yesterday:

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/the-french-rapist-began-small-they-always-do-w7wkcklh3?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_conversation&spot_im_redirect_source=notifications&spot_im_comment_id=sp_nNNHCgsN_53b8d22d-6350-4b97-b28e-798cece4ab0b_c_2lnVl74QejKM9mvcjxiFf4nPplU_r_2lpg10MQw3QecUwAu61r79VEo7V&spot_im_highlight_immediate=true

A couple of points that some on here are still denying about the uncomfortable reality that, as Freeman says, "The Pélicot case is akin to an iceberg."

 if you think “Without Her Knowing” is a one-off example of online sexual fantasies coming very off line, ask any twenty or thirtysomething woman if she’s ever been choked during sex.

And this:

The extremes of it have grabbed the attention, but beneath the surface are far more common and deep-rooted problems. Much has been made about the seeming normality of the rapists: civil servants, nurses, a firefighter and so on. Gisèle even knew one from her local bakery, where she often waved hello to him. “I never thought he’d come and rape me,” she testified last week. And yet, he did.

Men who insist that it is only a minute minority of men who are prepared to rape women if they think they can get away with it are part of the problem. There is a real problem with men who commit "minor" abuses against women, and a FAR bigger problem with millions of men, their friends and families, who ignore or dismiss that as minor, instead of seeing it for what it is, namely men who are actively abusing women and who will go farther and farther if they feel that other men are happy to ignore their behaviour or even secretly admire them for it.

volchitsa

An interview in a newspaper this weekend with the partner of one of the accused describes how he doxed her on the same site, telling men where to turn up to attack her as she came out of work or near her home. She of course put it down to an ex wanting revenge, but it wasn't. This was her partner, not an ex. Because it turned him on.

https://twitter.com/JennlaMeuffin/status/1832780091434160368

Here's the article:

Procès de la soumission chimique : « Dominique Pélicot a donné à mon conjoint la recette pour me violer »

Just some of it: the police come into their home at 6 am, seize all the electronic devices, question her about her sex life, her health etc. They show her a photo of an old man she's never seen before (D Pelicot).

The only thing she does know is that for 8 years she's been the victim of multiple instances of harassment on social media. Someone's been pretending to be her, giving out her name, her photo and her address, causing her to get threatening messages including threatening her children if she doesn't send more pictures etc. One day someone attacks her in a car park as she's leaving work. She fights back, he seems nonplussed but leaves, but comes back the next day, even more aggressive, convinced that she does want him to attack her, because he's been told that what she wants is to be forced. She reports all this to the police, to no effect - has to even prevent her husband from physically attacking the ex that she suspects must be behind it all.

Instead, the police inform her that the person behind the stalking and harassment is none other than the man she shares her life with.

La police envahit l’appartement … interpelle son compagnon, mène une perquisition. Marie (ne) comprend rien aux questions qu’on lui pose sur son couple, sa santé, ses habitudes alimentaires… Ni pourquoi on lui présente la photo d’un retraité qu’elle n’a jamais vu.

Durant huit ans, la jeune femme a été victime de harcèlement sur les réseaux sociaux. «Quelqu’un se faisait passer pour moi sur coco.fr … Mon nom, mon visage, mon adresse y étaient régulièrement diffusés. »

« Je recevais ensuite des messages sur mes réseaux sociaux où l’on m’insultait, on me réclamait plus de photos, sous peine de s’en prendre à mes enfants. … Un jour, un homme s’est jeté sur moi alors je reprenais ma voiture après le travail, témoigne-t-elle. J’ai hurlé et il m’a lâché… Mais il ne comprenait rien, il était persuadé que c’était moi qui lui avais donné rendez-vous. Je lui ai dit que non, mais il est revenu le lendemain, encore plus agressif. Visiblement, son interlocuteur lui avait dit d’insister en se faisant passer pour moi et disant qu’en réalité j’aimais qu’on me force. »

Marie dépose plainte, en vain. Tente de traquer l’auteur du faux profil sur coco.fr, sans succès. Et finit par se faire une raison, persuadée qu’il s’agit de la vengeance d’un ex, qui finira bien par se lasser. « Quand j’y repense… J’ai même dû retenir mon conjoint, qui menaçait d’aller lui casser la gueule », se souvient-elle, amère.

Ses ordinateurs, saisis et analysés, vont en effet révéler que cet usurpateur malveillant, prêt à organiser un guet-apens pour faire agresser Marie dans un parking sombre, c’était lui, l’homme dont elle partageait la vie.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597474#Comment_122597474

That's the awful thing about this case. For Gisele, as horrific as the multiple rapes must be, the fact that the whole thing was orchestrated by the man she was sharing her life with must be shattering. How can she trust anyone again? Yet she has the bravery and fortitude to trust the French justice system - incroyable!

And now, another woman is having the same realisation…

Former Former Former

Much has been made about the seeming normality of the rapists: civil servants, nurses, a firefighter and so on

The Times article cited above suffers from the same fallacy as the OP and many subsequent contributions - that a man's "normality" is defined by his profession or some other meaningless descriptors. A dangerous sicko who progresses to raping women does not become a "normal" man by virtue of being an accountant or a dentist, he is still a dangerous sicko, he just has a front to hide behind.

I'd love to know what sort of job a rapist would be expected to have? What does an "abnormal" man do for a living? Answers on a postcard please.

The central thrust of this thread is, and has always been from the moment it was started, that if rapists are "normal" men, then it follows that "normal" men are rapists. And that is what has turned this thread into the absolute sh1tshow that it is, people just can't help themselves from turning everything into division and hate, that we can't discuss this absolutely nightmarish case without 50% of the population being accused of being complicit in it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597337#Comment_122597337

Men who insist that it is only a minute minority of men who are prepared to rape women if they think they can get away with it are part of the problem.

I'd be very interested to know what % of men you think are prepared to rape women. You obviously have a very clear view on this so don't be shy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597500#Comment_122597500

I'd say the fact that she pressed so hard for a public trial probably means that she has no faith in the system behind closed doors.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597607#Comment_122597607

"Seeming normality", not that they were actually normal, but seemed to be to others. This absolutely was the case. Not sure what's so offensive and controversial about that?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597640#Comment_122597640

Maybe but I think it might be more hopeful than that: she says "The shame needs to change sides", and I think/hope she's right.

There have been photos of the men sitting in court hiding their faces (I won't post them as unlike the names which are posted up publicly outside the courtroom door, I think thaking photos inside the court is probably banned: I notice that journalists covering the case only seem to be providing drawings from inside the courtroom, not photographs.)

She and her children have appeared openly, heads high, whereas the accused are doing everything to hide their faces. If the case had been held behind closed doors, who would that suit best?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597685#Comment_122597685

Like I said, it's the repeated corollary that men who seem normal are therefore rapists that is problematic. It's utterly irrelevant what any of them do for a living. I set off on my career path when I was 17, it's got little or nothing to do with the man I am today, thirty-odd years later.

I'm not personally offended by it, I just hate the way some posters have to use everything as a platform for their own agendas. Like, this is a case that should have had everyone absolutely unified in their disgust but the thread was taken down a different path.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597731#Comment_122597731

These particular men who seemed normal were rapists though. I'm not seeing anyone saying that all men who seem normal are rapists?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597337#Comment_122597337

So if my partner asks me to choke her during sex, I’m a rapist waiting to happen? is that the kind of impression you’re trying to make with that cherry pick from that article?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597607#Comment_122597607

LOL it's the Times that's suffering from a fallacy.

Remember @Overheal spent pages and pages trying to prove that there weren't nearly a hundred men apparently within easy driving distance of the Pelicots, and the vast majority from the same department where they lived, at least one being an actual neighbour in the same small village, all prepared to either rape or stay silent about rape of a 60 year old woman. Not one ever even made an anonymous call to denounce what was happening.

What are the chances that not one of them was decent enough to do that?

And yes I know they were all on that site - but that proves nothing. Most women probably don't know what sites their partners go on. It's like saying "they were all on a porn site" - I mean, yeah, but how many men are not? What we do is that enough local men were on that site looking for women to rape for there to be 72 that went through with it, and not one to denounce it.

So no, I don't know the numbers - but I have to acknowledge that it's clealy FAR more than I ever imagined before this.

And I see people (women) saying that the Nth Room scandal from South Korea is infitely worse. Thousands of men providing photos of their wives and underage daughters, and organising rapes for each other.

And then someone else has mentioned another case in France that got very little notice a few years back, internationally anyway, where a JUDGE, no less, advertised his 13 year old daughter for rape on one of those sites. He didn't even get a prison sentence: two years suspended.

https://www.ladepeche.fr/2022/10/04/juge-en-appel-lex-magistrat-qui-proposait-de-violer-sa-fille-mineure-nira-pas-en-prison-10709855.php

But yeah, I'm the one who has a male hate agenda. FFS

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597757#Comment_122597757

now it’s “nearly” a hundred. I believe a few days ago you tried to say it was “over” a hundred? You’re all over the place. Like the men in the story, some who came from perhaps as far as 917 km away.

I’m not sure why you rationally expect these rapists and rapist-adjacent individuals would have gone and told on themselves. I get your disappointment is immeasurable, but it’s not reasonable given their nature.

Don’t tag me in your sniping in the future thanks.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597756#Comment_122597756

Seriously that's your best argument?

Well I don't know your partner nor your relationship with them, but I do understand from talking to teens and young women that they are led to believe that they should allow the man to choke them, and that they are frigid if they don't.

I'll put it another way: women are risking death by being choked. Several have died. No men have ever died from being choked by their female partner - in fact women choking males doesn't really seem to be a thing. I notice you didn't say what if your partner wanted to choke you. At most there's auto erotic asphyxiation for men. But being pushed into accepting being choked? Nah, that's very much a one-way thing.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597769#Comment_122597769

72 plus 3 out of every 10 who didn't follow up. That's 100, more or less.

(I'm fascinated, in a "gives-me-the-creeps" kind of way, that this constant trying to nitpick the origins of the men, then the numbers involved, etc etc, and always in order to diminish the scope of the events, is what you find truly important to do/say in this case.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597757#Comment_122597757

wtf😕 just a "normal guy". That's horrifying.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597777#Comment_122597777

I'm the one who has a male hate agenda.

You keep telling on yourself

I notice you didn't say what if your partner wanted to choke you. At most there's auto erotic asphyxiation for men. But being pushed into accepting being choked? Nah, that's very much a one-way thing.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597757#Comment_122597757

Most women probably don't know what sites their partners go on. It's like saying "they were all on a porn site" - I mean, yeah, but how many men are not?

Sorry no, it's not like that.

Lots of men - and women - look at porn, and have done since the invention of paper and ink. That is not remotely comparable to going onto some anonymous chat room and planning (and executing) the most heinous sex crimes imaginable. It's just not.

So again, you're trying to create this false equivalence between "normal" behaviour and these crimes, with the express intent of tarring us all with this pretty horrific brush. Hence my disgust at you hijacking this case for your own ends.

What are the chances that not one of them was decent enough to do that?

Again - you are talking as though these are "normal" men with a functioning moral compass. They were not. Decency was never on the agenda, and definitely not when it comes with a significant risk of exposing their own behaviours.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597800#Comment_122597800

What’s fascinating is you don’t care about getting the facts right when making such serious claims about the wider population of men, and exclusively men, your misandrist agenda.

Serious claims require serious adherence to fact. Yet you don’t even want to get the arithmetic correct. That’s what’s fascinating.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597824#Comment_122597824

We don't have the exact arithmetic, only approximations. They don't even know for sure how many men exactly raped her. Fewer than the number of rape videos because some men came back several times, the man with AIDS came back SIX times. So 83 rape videos and the number 72 men has been suggested by the police. Of which 50 are in court, some others are dead and, AFAICT, about a dozen still free and unnamed, and no longer being looked for.

So the approximations I've been using are those the journalists covering the court case have tweeted as various experts and others have testified.

That you think that is a failing on my part just shows your unhealthy obsession with me. You should probably go for a walk.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597837#Comment_122597837

there not only 83 rape videos. You seem to be going out of your way to willfully distort what was reported in a link you yourself shared to suit an agenda. Can you go read it seriously. It is 20,000 videos and photos

“Over the course of their investigation, the police found more than 20,000 videos and photographs, many of them dated and labeled, in an electronic folder titled “abuse.” The timeline they built began in 2011. The list of suspects grew to 83”

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597820#Comment_122597820

So again, you're trying to create this false equivalence between "normal" behaviour and these crimes, with the express intent of tarring us all with this pretty horrific brush. Hence my disgust at you hijacking this case for your own ends.

I think this is how you're reading it. The fact is that many of them were just regular guys, in regular jobs with wives and families and community involvement but that appearances can be deceptive. The second case of one of the men trying to have his wife assaulted and stalked in the aftermath really demonstrates that these women were completely oblivious to the double lives their partners were living, because for all intents and purposes they were just 'normal' men.

The case of the judge offering his daughter and wife for rape online is just highlights the fact that even those we trust in the highest positions can betray our beliefs. We've seen this closer to home with the recent sentencing of Gerard O'Brien, the sequences of garda being charged with domestic abuse and harassment and in our recent history episodes of clerical abuse on a scale to make the eyes water.

Normal as in, people we wouldn't think any less of.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597997#Comment_122597997

Well, it seems the detectives who unearthed this crime were men....

You wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a man...

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597819#Comment_122597819

If I've made mistakes in my calculations as you've tried to gaslight here without any evidence, show us the evidence.

You can sit there and vapidly claim that 'everything I said was wrong' but clearly you cannot show empirically how that is. I cited evidence from the investigators, from the daughter of the victim, showing there to be 83 suspects of which 72 raped her, yet you continue to make wild claims of larger numbers, '30 men who didn't rape her' and 'a hundred men, give or take,' your choosing to wildly distort a comment made by the husband rapist in this case doesn't hold any weight against the empirical information provided by investigators and the woman's own daughter, telling us there are 83 suspects, of which 72 raped her.

This is as ridiculous as you choose to continue to make it, now for example having outdone it again to distort 83 suspects as 83 rape videos.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597997#Comment_122597997

remove men?

Where do we put them?

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598039#Comment_122598039

Not all men obviously. But lock up the criminals for good and only let men be in public places if several women can vouch that they aren't abusive or violent or misogynist. The rest either under curfew or tag them like sex offenders so they can no longer terrorise women and other innocent men

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598103#Comment_122598103

lol.

The men can just identify as women to circumnavigate that.

Isn't it odd that people can diferentiate easily between the differences between men and women when it suits them?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598070#Comment_122598070

I hear Elon wants to go to Mars…

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598045#Comment_122598045

Oh boy. The OP references the chief suspect admitting that for every 10 men he invited to rape his wife, 3 didn't go through with it. So, for 72 rapists, there were 30 would-be rapists who got cold feet at the last minute.

I might be reading it wrong but the 20,000 videos refers to a much wider investigation?

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598110#Comment_122598110

That's a completely separate issue. In this case biology will define men and women, not what they "identify" as

aero2k

@rogber

Lovely idea, but who vouches for the women who are vouching for the men?

And, in this case, it seems that the victim would have vouched for her husband until she was made aware of his crimes.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598291#Comment_122598291

You're right of course and I'm exaggerating for effect but the basic point is valid. Just imagine what laws men would introduce against women if, say, women constantly poisoned men or stabbed them in their sleep or whatever. And I mean with deaths every day the way men kill hundreds or thousands of women every day. Men would reduce them to the status of mere slaves (as they've often done in history). But basically men regard the vast majority of violent male crime with a mere shrug of the shoulders, unless it's committed by immigrants.

Men ARE the problem and just saying "not all men" is not good enough a response.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598335#Comment_122598335

I can’t really begin to discuss the matter seriously with you when you are using such hyperbolic examples.

I’m sorry but there is no way that 100’s of thousands of women are killed daily by men on purpose let alone including accidental death.

I think to have this discussion and to be taken seriously there needs to be a certain level of responsibility in what is being claimed. To suggest women are being slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands per day is ludicrous and just not true.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598178#Comment_122598178

Indeed. As would the partners of several of the others accused too, it seems. Yet heaven help any woman who dares suggest on here that maybe plenty of men who seem to be decent and normal actually aren't that decent at all, and that therefore women in general should perhaps learn to be a lot more sceptical of "normal-seeming men" - right?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598402#Comment_122598402

Skeptical to what end?

Even if the victim had recognized several, many, or even all of these men, even been skeptical of them and kept them at arms length it was the husband, whom she trusted (regrettably), who drugged her then let them into the home. That's what's so shocking about this case, it required no trust by the victim be placed in the majority of the perpetrators, she didn't place herself in a position of trust with any of them the same way as might be the case if eg. we were discussing abuses by the priesthood through confessionals or 'private counseling' sessions in the back offices of the church etc. or even to trust a stranger to hold one's drink in a nightclub. I would encourage practice healthy skepticism in those examples of course, I just don't see how skepticism of men more broadly would have helped or prevented something here.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598335#Comment_122598335

In a lot of the world, women dont need to be commiting heinous crimes for their freedom to be restricted. Look at the taliban, they just banned women from speaking in public at all. God forbid though that anyone acknowledge the fact that most male rapists often seem like normal guys, that's the worst kind of discrimination and misandry

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598439#Comment_122598439

I think it's a given that countries that are overtaken with the taliban, shariah law etc. are not part of any solution on discussion.

I don't think it's been disputed rapists in civilized society seek to blend in, even seek out positions of trust within the community.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598039#Comment_122598039

Well, I'm sure the poster is using hyperbole for effect, but just on this: you may be overstating the detectives' role a tad. It was actually women who reported the upskirting to the security guard.

Now I have been the first on here to give credit where it's due to the police, but to be perfectly frank, one could equally say that I'm giving too much credit to the police just for doing their job, and that the fact that so many police forces would NOT have done as much is really not the same as saying "Oh it took a man to solve the crime for you". I think that's not a fair comment. Apart from anything else, do you know whether the security guard and the police officers were all male? I don't.