French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607147#Comment_122607147

No not making a comparison on the topic, just an aside comment about UK's lack of a law recognizing women are capable of rape.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607172#Comment_122607172

Hmm. Cos that’s absolutely the most urgent thing that needs to be done here. After the hours and pages you spent trying wrongly to prove that these rapists were such a rarity that they had been coming from all over Europe, you move straight on to the massive problem of female rapists. FFS

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607198#Comment_122607198

Just made a lone comment about it no need to blow up about it. Nowhere did I even suggest it was an urgent thing nevermind the most urgent thing, nice strawman argument you got there. I’d leave it at that.

You tried to prove wrongly all the perps in this case came from the same 20 mins of the victim, in the same village and we know that’s false. I know that’s a a sore point of contention for you, and your thesis about rapes all over everywhere etc., but it’s true that they come from farther around than you made out originally. Complain about the length of the argument if you like… but it sounds like you’re eager to relitigate it all over again, weird.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607172#Comment_122607172

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-64919747

There was a woman jailed in Northern Ireland last year for it and the judge said there was no distinction between male and female rape. Perhaps the actual word wasn't used when she was charged (I'm not sure what she was charged with) but according to this other article (behind a paywall)

On the day her trial was due to start last December, Lord, from Derry Lodge Manor in Lurgan, admitted that on June 23, 2020, she caused a man “to engage in sexual activity” when he did not consent.The charge sheet indicated the sex was penetrative intercourse and that Lord did not reasonably believe that he so consented.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/courts/lurgan-woman-jailed-for-sexual-attack-on-sleeping-man/1720711226.html

volchitsa

Tanya Lord.

https://armaghi.com/news/lurgan-news/co-armagh-woman-who-had-sex-with-sleeping-man-jailed/203244

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607287#Comment_122607287

So you were lying earlier when you said that women cannot commit rape under UK law.

For how quick you are to accuse others of lying on this thread I expected you to hold yourself to a higher standard.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607218#Comment_122607218

How many local men would have to be involved for you to be shocked and and make you think?.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607301#Comment_122607301

To think what, that there was a rape ring of this ilk in every village and hollow the way the OP has made out? I'd have to see a lot more evidence than that displayed here, for a single crime ring, and for which we still don't know all the facts to support such a sweeping assertion.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607300#Comment_122607300

I believe the charge was 'causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent', not rape.

The judge did refer to it as rape though.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607309#Comment_122607309

The judge did refer to it as rape though.

QED.

Judge Lynch said if the myth about male victims “needs to be disabused, it can be disabused now by the contents of the victim impact statement I have just read out” and warning that “there’s no distinction between male and female rape – the fact that a male is the victim doesn’t make it any less serious than the rape of a female victim.”

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607307#Comment_122607307

No, not a rape ring specifically.

But how many locals would have to have been involved in that one rape ring for you to start to think that there are a lot more monsters than people think in their local areas?

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607310#Comment_122607310

I specifically pointed that out to you myself.

Because I presumed if I didn't then you would say oh she raped him but they just didn't call it rape under the law because of double standards.

But you found a way to pick anyway 🤣

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607300#Comment_122607300

No, it’s just a fact that because of the way UK law is written, a woman can not be charged with the committing the offence of rape. They can however, be charged and convicted of causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/1/crossheading/causing-sexual-activity-without-consent

On the day her trial was due to start last December, Lord, whose address was given as Derrylodge Manor in Lurgan, entered a guilty plea that on June 23, 2020, she caused a man “to engage in sexual activity that he did not consent to”.

https://www.northernirelandworld.com/news/crime/woman-jailed-by-northern-ireland-judge-for-raping-a-man-in-what-is-believed-to-be-first-case-of-its-kind-in-uk-4059879

And there’s nothing that says a Judge cannot opine that there’s no distinction between male and female rape - the fact that a male is the victim doesn’t make it any less serious than the rape of a female victim.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607300#Comment_122607300

Not a lie. Doesnt matter what the judge called it. Rightly or wrongly, women cannot be charged with rape under UK law. Fact. You're looking more and more petty now with your vendetta against the OP. Imagine being more offended by her posts than at the actual topic of this thread, the drugging ,raping and filming of at least 2 women by dozens of men in over the course of years. Very strange indeed.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-7-key-legislation-and-offences

• Section 1 Rape involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by a penis, therefore a woman can only commit this offence as an accomplice.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607314#Comment_122607314

[do] you to start to think that there are a lot more monsters than people think in their local areas?

For my part I have a pretty good idea of that already. It's 20 in a 3 mile radius.

None of this shocks me anymore tbph I've already grown up in a culture that treats the issue with a healthy degree of street smarts, without building mine or my family's persona around an unhealthy/paranoid idea that everyone we meet is a rapist/rapist waiting to happen, it's just the practice of stranger danger. In a 3 mile radius of me live 20,000 people. 1 in 1,000 is still not a great statistic but it's not something we can lose our lives worrying about - nevermind while there are some really bad people in that list of 20, real monsters, a couple of these perps are child rapists, and many of them in 20 are also on the lower end of the sex offender spectrum (3rd degree sexual conduct, lewd display (eg. public urination repeat offender), etc), and all of them are known to police and have to maintain registration incl. keeping up to date photo ID. I know where each of them live by street address.

There are also so many other varieties of crime we could still be the victim of, like assault, home burglary, etc. that we don't have a registry for and a registry wouldn't protect us from. We'd be more worried in the current political climate, truly, from the attitudes around here, of having our car or home attacked or vandalized for having the 'wrong' electoral stickers or signage on display. But no, unlike OP, we do not treat the majority of men as people just waiting for an invitation to commit a rape, we do not 'assume the worst of men in general' from the actions of 1 in 1000 men, that is not rational.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607317#Comment_122607317

There was nothing 'picked' at, it was just pasted in for people reading thread so they won't have to click on through the link to pickup the same context.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607339#Comment_122607339

It's not just 20 in a 3 mile radius though, that's only the ones who have been caught and convicted? There are many, many multiples of that who aren't reported and have no record.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607341#Comment_122607341

That's an assumption. And 'many many multiples' of 1/1000, or even 1 in 500 if you want to exclude women from the population, even if 'many many multiples' is an accurate estimate (it's a subjective phrase, not a figure but anyway), would not come close to concluding one should assume the worst of men in general. Go on and assume the worst of 1 in 50 why not, since we're making up the figure anyway, let's just say 10x more. That's still not an indictment of men in general.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607333#Comment_122607333

Droll. I don't have any 'vendetta' against the OP, I am however challenging the messaging in the OP's posts, such as eg. to assume the worst in men. This does not mean I don't find what the perpetrators of the crime did to be extremely offensive, one can be true without the other. Their crimes being heinous has already been established from the outset, and nobody disagrees with that, the presence of more conversation about things people disagree on is not indicative that they are more offended by that than what they already agree upon. Were that the case you may as well argue the OP is more offended at my posts than offended at the crime under discussion, which would be as ludicrous as your logic makes it sound.

A woman can commit the offence of section 1 rape according to the text you just cited. As an accomplice. QED.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607350#Comment_122607350

Yes, an accomplice, a separate charge. Doesn't change the fact that women can't be charged with the crime of rape in the UK so volchitsa wasn't lying as you falsely claimed.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607355#Comment_122607355

It is still section 1 rape. It’s not a separate charge it’s in section 1.

99nsr125

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607333#Comment_122607333

You're incorrect, a woman with a penis can be charged. Such is the discussion that is relevant

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607380#Comment_122607380

If I was ever raped by a man who claimed to be a woman and the state tried to pander to that nonsense and make out that a woman raped me I would fight that to the very end.

Someone who is born male and rapes someone with his penis is not a woman 😤

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607380#Comment_122607380

Well that explains your earlier 40% nonsense. Any suggestions at all that are relevant to the discussion as to how to prevent men from committing rape? Anything at all that would reassure anyone that they shouldn’t perceive men as having the potential to commit rape?

So far all you’ve done is a bang-up job of confirming everything the OP has every right to be concerned about.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607414#Comment_122607414

Yes, with the proviso that it's not actually the "rape/don't rape" option that makes someone male or female.

And I don't know whether you already know this, but several rape victims in the UK have been taken to task when giving evidence at the trial of their rapist to oblige them to call the rapist "she", and to say "her penis".

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/12/whats-current-woman-required-judge-refer-male-charged-assaulting/

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4724015-to-object-to-having-to-call-a-man-accused-of-rape-she-in-a-criminal-court-trial

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607300#Comment_122607300

Lying, no less? Interesting. You really have a knack for picking out what's important here -women raped by multiple men over a period of years, rapes set up by the man they most trusted in their lives - and you think a misogynistic judge going off the ranch with his personal opinion is what matters.

There is a real MRA flavour to this. He says men are susceptible in exactly the same way as women to the consequences of sexual assaults by someone of the opposite sex. I disagree. They would have some of the same psychological reactions - but not for example the fear of being overpowered. She tricked him by claiming to be a lesbian but he was at least able to push her off when he woke up. And men can't get pregnant.

Also:

Highlighting that he could find no similar cases, he submitted the court should take guidance from sentencing in rape cases.

So, apparently the only case ever in U.K. legal history. So I'm lying because of a single instance with comments from the judge that are personal opinion rather than law. Sounds more like they decided to make an example of her, to prove how egalitarian they are. If only they took the rapes of women half so seriously, there might actually be a reduction in rapes.

The victim has my sympathy and I am glad this assault was taken seriously by the police. But the reality is that women who have been in this situation don't even bother reporting it to the police because they know what the result will be for a woman.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607339#Comment_122607339

How would "a healthy degree of street smarts" be a protection when someone's life partner drugs and rapes them, or drugs them and brings in other men to rape them?

Are you saying these women are just poor judges of character?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608149#Comment_122608149

That’s not what you’ve argued for at all, you’ve argued to assume the worst of all men. If you want to give your partner a second look sure maybe that would be a good idea. I don’t think you’re suggesting women shouldn’t reconsider their partners for red flags knowing that some of them may be getting drugged for sexual violence. Nor would suggesting so victim blame them as “bad judges of character.”

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608315#Comment_122608315

instead of remaking my argument into something else - which you and several others have been doing all along - why don’t you keep to making your own points?

Goodness knows your argument needs working on.

You could, for instance, consider whether the suggestions I’ve made in the thread have any value.

But that’s not what interests you on this is it?

For some reason what matters to you is finding a single instance of a rapist recruited from a bit farther away than the others, which you seemed to think would totally discredit me for some reason.

(Did you ever manage to find one by the way?)

Or a single instance of a misogynistic MRA style judge finding the only case in UK legal history of a woman raping a man - which again you seem to think proves I was actually lying.

But you totally don’t have a vendetta against me.

Absolutely not. 😏

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608403#Comment_122608403

There’s a lot of deflections and your personal vendettas here I will just ignore, none of this addresses the post you quoted. Your argument was “I'm struggling to know how women are supposed to be able to continue to assume the best of men in general in light of it” ie why shouldn’t I assume the worst of men in general (the answer to which is the numbers don’t add up even if you assume serious under reporting, and the main perpetrators of rape are someone the victim knows very well such as their romantic partners or close relatives, trusted acquaintance etc not 9 in 10 men buying beans at the grocer)

Regarding women re evaluating their partners in light of new information about potential criminal pathologies such as gang rape drugging I don’t see why you would assume women re evaluating their partners implies they are poor judges of character.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608427#Comment_122608427

Overheal I think you’re completely missing the point of the proposition. The example given in the opening post is just that - an example, which highlights just how unaware people are about what may be happening right under their noses, and that is the fact that men who are of a mind to commit rape will create the opportunities for themselves to do so, or avail of the opportunity when it presents itself to commit rape in the belief that they will be able to avoid any negative consequences of their behaviour.

The point is that we don’t know how many of that type of man there are in society, but what can be done to prevent them from being able to commit rape - ie before they commit rape, not what can be done to prevent those men who have already committed rape from committing rape again. The point is that already there are numerous examples where men have committed rape because they either created the opportunity for themselves, or the opportunity presented itself, and the case used as an example in the opening post is an extreme example which highlighted the fact that these men can operate with relative impunity unknownst to even those people closest to them. In that context it’s perfectly reasonable to posit that women have something to be concerned about that they may or may not have previously considered, and it’s perfectly reasonable to ask men who wish to contribute to the discussion - how can men be prevented from committing rape?

Your earlier post, posts, have consistently tried to shift responsibility for men who commit rape onto women who have been raped, whether it’s suggesting that they’re responsible when a man again chooses to commit rape, or your latest attempt at suggesting that ‘street smarts’ offers some kind of protection from men who choose to commit rape - it doesn’t address the fundamental question of the opening post which is concerned with how to prevent men from committing rape in the first place? It’s not a straightforward question, but the purpose was to get people to think about the question, as opposed to just diving straight in to deny, defend, deflect, distract, undermine and ultimately dismiss the question entirely as though it’s irrational or irrelevant.

aero2k

Here's another famous case which never went to trial as the alleged perpetrator absconded. I might post it over on the Spiritan thread to show notallpriestsorbrothers etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manacled_Mormon_case

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608559#Comment_122608559

it doesn’t address the fundamental question of the opening post which is concerned with how to prevent men from committing rape in the first place? It’s not a straightforward question

And what would be your answer? I’ve provided my thoughts which I feel you mischaracterized but leaving that all completely aside and moving on id like to know your answer to the fundamental question.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608839#Comment_122608839

I've posted a couple of suggestions in the thread while you've been busy remaking my comments into straw men, so you can stop pretending that you're actually interested in suggestions.

Or perhaps you're just illustrating this old old male habit again?

Not all Mormons? 🤨

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608584#Comment_122608584

no crime of rape was deemed to have been committed since the victim was male; however, indecent assault of a man did apply.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122609195#Comment_122609195

It's been clear what your suggestions have been, besides things like women should be 'well advised' to be assuming the worst of men, popularizing kink-shaming, banning or de-anonymizing access to porn and curtailing internet privacy rights, it has ultimately been to foist the responsibility to address the problem on to men and wash your hands of it, so I find it just a tad ironic this is your (misandrist (- something you hardly deny and instead practically self-justify)) response while butting in to my asking someone else for their own (not yours) opinion/take on it. You solicit the discussion to happen among presumptively male posters to address the issue… then when they try to have that conversation you jump on their backs about it. Please kindly, pick a lane.

IOW would women be well-advised to be suspicious of all men, just in case, or should they continue to give men the benefit of the doubt, even if that necessarily leads to a certain number of them being abused in the way this woman has been?

I'm struggling to know how women are supposed to be able to continue to assume the best of men in general in light of it.

So maybe the idea that people shouldn't be judged for their sexual "kinks" is turning out to be a mistake, as is the claim, that one still sees being made sometimes, that men having access to porn reduces sexual offending?

Maybe "kinkshaming" is actually a good thing?

I think given what we know about the women in porn films, who as you say are often drug addicted or even just trafficked, an outright ban should probably be considered.

So, it's not going to be the only solution, but I think all anonymous access to porn needs to be stopped. Urgently.

I'd say that as a woman, it's not up to me to propose solutions to male abuse. Isn't that a problem for men to deal with?

Another point about this constant "It's misandry!" whinge is that even if it were, the consequences for men are just not on the same level as what women put up with - even from men who claim to live them.

As I forget now who said, When a woman says "I hate men" she just goes ahead and lives her life, avoiding men to the best of her abilities. When a man says "I hate women", it often means he will shout and abuse random women in the street, if not far far worse - hurt, rape or kill them.

And yet men seem to think the two "hates" are mirror equivalents. They're not.

this train wreak thread should have stopped at post 2….or better still deleted.

Post 2 is not quoted enough. For ever time that mega long signature appears. Post two should appear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583214#Comment_122583214

post 2

Candlel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122607380#Comment_122607380

What does that mean? Women can’t have a penis?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122610083#Comment_122610083

nope, nice try. See post 2.

The thread is a mess because of posters that have deep hate & anger. Clue = not poster 2

Beasty

There are a lot of reports that need to be reviewed, but I will not get time until tomorrow. Another mod may get to them beforehand but I am closing the thread in the meantime