12kVA to 16kVA upgrade

feruta9

I paid for and received an upgrade in supply from the ESB from 12kVA to 16kVA. New tails of 25mm2 were run from the consumer unit to the meter.

This was done in advance in various works and upgrades (solar, EV, heat pump etc).

However when I went to check the meter and plan for an EV charger install I notice there's a 63A MCB overcurrent isolating fuse in the meter box, indicating 12kVA. I asked the electrician about this and he said he wanted to protect everything from overheating (?).

I haven't gone into it in detail with him but before I do just want to be absolutely certain as per the photo uploaded I absolutely should have a 80A isolating fuse in the meter box to give me 16kVA for the house supply? There are no other issues to consider?

Because otherwise why did I pay money for upgrading everything.

JL spark

you should have a 80amp over current device in the meter box ,

Expensive breaker too ,

feruta9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122601828#Comment_122601828

It's not the ESB fuse in the black box, it's the isolation fuse beside it with the switch. That should be 80A?

JL spark

yes , the breaker in the bottom right hand side of meter box should be 80amp

drury..

Rec must be clueless or nervous about something

Not sure what

Afaik the standard boards are rated for 80A and the earthing conductor should be 16s for 16kva

JL spark

16kva will also need a enhanced fuse board

drury..

I forgot at minimum the existing main isolator needs uprating to 80A if not entire main board

When I checked a standard 63a domestic board the "current rating" is shown as 80A

The rating would presumably be the busbar and flexible cabling

Wonder has the rec even done anything at main board aside from tails

JL spark

OP post up some pictures of works

feruta9

Thanks for the replies. I'll look more closely at it and get pics.

To be clear there was very extensive discussion with the electrician about the new power supply and it was 10000000% clear we were getting an upgrade to 16kVA and the house supply was supposed to be redone to accommodate that. New tails and new consumer unit was put in with all this in mind.

If it has been specced only for 12kVA (assume busbars + grounding as above?) I'll be beyond angry.

feruta9

This was on the door of the consumer unit.

Assume it refers to both the plastic frame I'm looking at and the internal busbars?

63A there, which I assume it means it's only suitable for 12kVA?

I know there's a tendency to blame the customer here but trust me when it was discussed extensively, it was the whole point of getting the work done in the first place.

feruta9

Here is the actual new consumer unit and isolating fuse.

Tbf the main fuse for the house in the consumer unit is 80A, the 63A to the right of it runs to the old consumer unit (which we agreed as the EV charger and heat pump and another part of the house are being run from the new consumer unit and working at the old consumer unit was messy, so it saved work) which is still there.

But the busbar, cabinet and isolating fuse all say 63A.

JL spark

that board is not suitable for 16kva ,

Bus bar and panel wiring are too small , board should be rated @80amp , physically bigger busbar and panel wiring would be 16sq ,

feruta9

Thanks for the info.

feruta9

Sorry just one other question, is the panel wiring indicative of 16mm tails for 12kVA or can you tell from pics?

Because if the 25mm tails aren't there and they're 16mm CSA tails for 12kVA it's a question of ripping up either ground outside or run around the house to the metro or half the downstairs ceiling to run new ones.

It was all plastered in after new tails were run. As angry as I am the problem is of a completely different order if I still need to run new tails, we could have just used the existing ones in any event.

JL spark

it’s in the regs , 16kva requires 25ml tails , 16sq earth rod , enhanced fuseboard to terminate the 25sq tails , along with busbar and panel wiring ,

Is this a small company or a big company that done the installation

feruta9

I mean are you saying above he didn't even run bigger 25mm tails and the panel wiring you can see is from a 16mm tails? Was practically the whole point of the job.

I'd say a medium sized company, has a few guys working for him, they came recommended, they do some industrial installations too, solar projects and so on so assumed they were clued in.

Boss wasn't an idiot or oblivious to what we needed, discussed 1 EV charger, in the future needing 2 EV chargers, new 16kW (so 4-5 I suppose in reality) heat pump that was coming, demand diversity, import from ESB, whether we should even go for 20kVA, settled on 16. Just took it on trust something so elementary we went over in such detail would have been done as we discussed.

Not sure what to do now. Have a receipt but not sure 16kVA is written down anywhere, wasn't itemised, again took it on trust. No text messages, all done by phone or face to face. May well just deny any responsibility at this point.

drury..

Job is a dogs dinner of an upgrade if its even an upgrade on the REC side at all.

A 80A isolator in (new ?)board and a 63A mcb

Main Board is showing as only 63A rated

63A main protective device in cabinet

As said above there's only a few main elements to a 16kva upgrade on the REC side

..80A main mcb in cabinet

..80A main board

..16sq earthing conductor

..25sq tails

drury..

Is there 25sq tails i can't tell from pics

And you don't normally series 2 63a mcbs like that( one at cabinet and one in main board) whatever he's at I don't know. It's hard to tell from pics of main board

drury..

Confirm that the 80A isolator on the left turns off the entire installation will you

Turns off everything , the whole house, new board and old board cos i can't see what's going on there ?

To confirm that you actually have main isolation fitted

JL spark

for 16kva , the main isolater in the board should be a double pole 100 amp rated isolater , not a mcb , this will break both conductors neutral and live ,

I don’t think that mains cable is 25 sq , you would never get the main earth connection into the earth bar in that board , The enhanced board for 16kva has larger connections for the bigger cables ,and the rcd is also upgraded to 80amp too
show a picture of the meter box where the mains cable comes in ,

drury..

..

drury..

So looks like possibly the tails weren't upgraded to 25 then and that explains his reluctance to uprate the 63A main protective device at cabinet ?

Main Board not upgraded either from 63A

For some reason he's fitted 80 A single pole main isolation(assuming there is main isolation there , hard to tell)

2 B63s for main overcurrent protection and sub-board in series , not ideal either.

JL spark

I’d say a new cable was pulled in , but only a 16sq , hard to confirm all this from pictures,

It’s a mess either way , client has paid for 16kva upgrade, and contractor has cut corners,

drury..

Ya .Looks like not much done on the contractor end.

Not familiar with Enhanced Boards . Didn't realize they were available off the shelf like that. As you said above then the existing 63A board should be replaced with a new Enhanced Board

When I was a rec doing enhanced it was all new installs and I made up my own boards in those days.

Didn't know they had 100A DP main isolator either but it makes sense alright on 80a main overcurrent protection . RCD also rated at 80A like you said.

feruta9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616833#Comment_122616833

Yes. Tried it there it turned the entire house off.

JL spark

I don’t like the Garo boards. We use Hager vaga range , the enhanced one is a joy to use , loads of room and big connection points

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122617391#Comment_122617391

Ya school day for me

I saw a standard 12kva garo board had an "80A current rating" in the spec and thought fitting an 80A isolator would do for an upgrade in that case.

63A rcds are not adequately rated either even if not overloaded

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122617370#Comment_122617370

Looks like the contractor probably hasn't done any of his side of the work on the upgrade

Can't see any brown 25s there I don't think

All that's definitely been done is an 80A single pole main isolator fitted in an existing 63A board which isn't correct.

That should be 100A double-pole as part of a new enhanced board as outlined by JLspark above

lightup111

Doesn't look like 25sq to me either.

There's a brown and blue 16sq , and a smaller earth just taped up and left floating in the DB. I hate seeing that. Plenty of space for a few dinrail connectors.

drury..

Looks like probably 2 10s earths and a 16

So maybe 3*16 tails ?

JL spark

OP do you mind me asking what did you pay for the install , was the whole tested ? Have you a cert and test record sheet

feruta9

There was some other work (fairly straightforward work, new sockets and lights and running cable for EV charger and whatnot) mixed in so the exact figure for that work specifically isn't itemised. I'll go back check exactly what I paid him.

I recall seeing those docs alright when he was here going through it but I'll have to check my folder later to see if I retained a copy or just saw it on the counter.

But the cert and test record sheet was done and submitted to Safe Electric which I'm 100% certain about as the ESB asked me to remind the RECI to send it into Safe Electric, as without it they could not go ahead with the upgrade. Once the ESB got those docs from Safe Electric they gave me a date for the upgrade to the meter. So that part was definitely done and I assume I can get a copy from them if I don't have one.

drury..

That 80A isolator looks like a con tbh if i'm being sceptical

Stuck in there to give the appearance of 16kva to the customer

All the major sections of the installation supply side except ESBN look to be 12kva so it's out of place by the look of it

meercat

agree with previous knowledgeable posters here

It doesn’t look like 25mm mains cables

It doesn’t look like there’s a 16mm earth cable to earth rod

Should be a double pole main isolator

Distribution board incorrectly rated for 80amp

is there surge protection in your distribution board

can you post a photo of complete board

Can you post a photo of complete meter cabinet

It’s also a requirement that you receive the certificate and test records