Boxster or S2000…?

MarkN

Rather than boring old pensions, I’m trying to look at other ways to at least track inflation with something you can enjoy and look at on the driveway… (I’ve convinced myself of this anyway)!

If you could buy either, which and why? Not against 986 or 987. S2000 I’d rather an AP2 (mid-ish 00s version).

Someone said to me you’ll never have to explain what a Boxster is to someone, the S2000 you will. I’ve lusted after both for a long time and in some ways, the Honda actually excites me more but a Porsche will always be a Porsche.

Ideally I’d buy in NI to avoid all the additional charges but that can be difficult particularly in the case of the Honda due to a limited market.

Two examples of the cars…

kdevitt

You'll get into a tidy 987 Boxster for less money than the S2k these days. I'm still a bit of a Honda fan-boy at heart, but the Porsche is where I'd be putting my cash. My Cayman was sublime - Boxster won't be much different. The Honda is also renowned for putting people into hedgerows, backwards - its part of the appeal I suspect!

w124man

Honda all day long! Cheaper Porsches are overrated and common as muck and a good standard S2000 is a rare beast. If you have to explain what an S2000 is then you're talking to the wrong people!!

MarkN

Yeah the Honda really has gone to dizzy heights. The time to buy was probably a few years ago from a price perspective. The Boxster does not seem to have gone that way - yet!

Justjens

BMW Z4 3.0L coupe, or roadster? Not many around, bomb proof engine, all the fun you need 😉

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122605647#Comment_122605647

Yeah they're probably slightly overpriced for what they are - I was considering one a while back but I think I'll go NSX now, or something cheaper - like a Ferrari 360 :D .

On the flip side, the Boxster is probably still slightly underpriced - prices are definitely stiffening up now though. You still get people suggesting they're not a real Porsche, or they're overrated - but frankly thats completely and utter BS - normally spouted by someone who saw Clarkson slag them once. I would take a Boxster or Cayman over the equivalent periods 911 all day long - might not beat them in a straight line, but they're a far better handling car imo. Was talking to one of the instructors at Mondello a while back and he said similar - they're so well set up out of the box.

MarkN

Ah anyone who slags off cars like the Boxster is just a moron. Same with the MX-5. I've had one or two mates make hairdresser comments… the way that thing turns into a corner or even takes a full on corner, there's nothing like it for the money!

Z4 - maybe a few years ago. I sort of get my fill of nice BMWs through work now. An S2000 or a Boxster are both a thing of the past for me which adds to the appeal.

w124man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122609119#Comment_122609119

So people are morons for expressing their opinion? That makes you a moron then!

Whatwicklow

Dont role out a Japanese inport, both the porker and s2000 will have plenty of choice available over there.

Any of the sourcing companies will locate your reffered colour milage condition and spec and find the car you want.

MarkN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122610723#Comment_122610723

Yeah fair point.

kdevitt

Get some insurance quotes before hand too - last I worked with had 2 S2000s, both off the road for a good while because he couldn't insure them. Think he finally got sorted with a classic policy - but also bear in mind that some classic policies don't cover JDM cars.

daithi7

This is such a lovely choice - well done OP!! As life is about choices, we should all make more choices like this one imho. :)

I've also lusted after both of these cars for a long time tbh. I test drove both back in the day, when they were current models, but ended up buying a Mercedes SLK instead back then, which I simply adored tbh.

So S2000 or Boxter, I see what you're saying about the Porsche being a 'Porsche', but it's S2000 the for me by a whisker....

What a car,what a gem, what a choice!!!

Enjoy!!!

P.s. the S2000 is/was also more reliable I suspect (check the reviews) which becomes even more crucial with a classic.

P.p.s. Let us know which you go for & your experience with it. (I would like to live vicariously on this one)

MarkN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122620603#Comment_122620603

Altered my Aviva policy online with a Boxster and it was fine, didn't try the S2000. Also, I'm now old at 42… :)

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122623137#Comment_122623137

Likewise, I had no issues insuring the Cayman S - was with allianz fully comp for €500 or so - I don't see any issues insuring a Boxster as you said. Point was more about importing an S2K - some companies just won't touch them. I was adding my CRX to my classic policy in and around renewal time, and some companies refused to insure it if it was an import (it is!) - a UK one was fine.

MarkN

https://youtu.be/0H_a_dOU1D4?si=OmjNyJz47BIZVSDZ

If anyone wants a nice MX-5 anyway…. Cough!

unkel

@MarkN - in your video you seem to say that you like the car to be a bit under the radar. If you want to have fun driving an S2000, you would need to be high up in the rev range. This would make the car very loud, attracting attention. I've never driven one, but they seem overpriced for what they are. Not sure if they are a wise investment. Not sure either if they would add much to the driving experience you have had with the MX-5

I owned a 986 for 5 years, the base 2.5l and it wasn't particularly fast (0-60 in a bit over 6s iirc, which is probably similar to S2000) but it drove superbly. I was lucky to have bought at the very bottom of the market in 2016, but they haven't gone up that much really, you can still get a decent one for 4 figures. When I was looking for a car at the time (after selling my totally boring to drive Audi TT), it was a toss up between a Z4 and a Boxster, which won the contest on pretty much all counts. Always hanging over your head is the IMS issue on the M96 engine (of all Porsches of the late 90s and 00s really). It didn't bother me too much at the time, but I got the car cheap.

Or keep most of your money in your pocket and buy an MG-F? A few around on DD in the €2k range. Don't worry about a thing and drive it like you stole it. A bit slow like your MX-5 but these are great wee drivers with the mid rear engine setup and RWD if you push the rev happy K-series 😁

Or for something completely different? Lotus Elan turbo from the early 90s. These use an engine and turbo from Isuzu which are very reliable. The €56 vintage motor tax is a nice benefit too and the car has aged quite well imho. Here's a pic of mine taken last month at Newcastle Aerodrome classic car show

MarkN

Interesting to hear your thoughts with your car history, Unkel.

That Lotus is gorgeous! I think it’s hard to beat the all roundness of the Porsche to be honest. Low down torque, gorgeous noise, timeless looks, probably a bit of an investment too. There’s some really mint S2000s in the UK but rust is also a concern with them.

I had the chance to buy this a few weeks ago. I was too slow and was overthinking it. Rang to put a deposit on it and it was gone 30 mins earlier.

unkel

Are Porsches on the VRT calculator now? Back when I bought mine, they weren't. So I would be very careful on a car like that or be prepared to bring the lube when you go to register it.

I also wouldn't have a lot of appetite any more for paying €1808 motor tax for a weekend car. I paid full whack year's tax up front on the Boxster once, just a 2.5l but still €1080. When the year was over, I reckon I took it out maybe 6-7 times 🙄 Getting a dog soon after who gets nervous in a loud combustion engine car didn't help, but you get my point - things in life rarely work out as you plan them

And maybe I read you wrong but you seem to be interested in the investment part of the car? If that's the case and you could afford that 987, you could also afford a half decent 996. The Boxster will be marginally better / more fun to drive, but it will go down in value. The 911 will go up.

I agree with you about the all roundness of the Porsches, be they any Boxster, Cayman or watercooled 911. All superb cars and better than anything else really

MarkN

Investment is a bonus I suppose but I certainly don’t want to lose a chunk hence only a handful of models are on my radar. I much prefer the 997 to 996, there’s a few in the high 20s sterling but as you say, it’s an unknown with VRT. Neither are on calculator or S2000, they know what they’re at. I figured the Boxster would be a less painful experience if something goes wrong compared to 911 and also the fact that they are that little bit better to drive but a 911 is always going to be just that. Fully agree on the road tax, if a 993 was going, that’s around an extra €18,000 in the budget versus road tax at the full rate for 10 years…!

There’s always the S&P 500 I guess but I can’t drive / admire that :)

unkel

Boxster and 911 have the same engine. If something goes wrong it will likely cost the same. Also you do not want to play the VRT lottery. Say you buy that late 20s sterling 997. Revenue says value here is €55k, so that'll be €20k VRT please thank you very much. You can fight it after you pay, but do you really want to go down that route?

I would concentrate on Irish reg cars. Or wildcard - an aircooled '94 or older (so just €200 fixed VRT) via the new NI route (skipping VAT / duty) if your budget is high enough to consider the above car.

But that is investing quite a lot of money altogether. Personally I would play it safer with a 4 figure 986 already on Irish plates. There is simply nothing much to lose there. Agree with @kdevitt that these are still probably undervalued. Have your cake and eat it. My own 986 over 5 years cost me less than nothing total cost of ownership, including a good bit of maintenance and all tax, insurance and fuel…

MarkN

Problem is just the selection here is so low. I should probably look at a few Porsche club forums etc to see. 993 would be the dream but as you say, big money now. Did spot a gorgeous 986, again in the UK but was 13k.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631682#Comment_122631682

It's not too bad, you need to be patient and give it a few months to see what comes up. Look on DD every day. Good ones for reasonable money sell very quickly! This was different when I bought in 2016, even the good ones were for sale for quite some time back then. Despite the market for buying and selling being a lot healthier back then than the tough market we are in now. Another sign that the 986 Boxsters are undervalued

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631541#Comment_122631541

The 2.7 Boxster is its own thing really though - as in not prone to bore score, and less likely to have IMS bearing issues - and its probably the sensible choice. Lower tax, close enough on power to the S, but a good step up from the 2.5 (222BHP for the last 2.7 986's v 258BHP in the 986 S and 205BHP in the 2.5, and 242BHP v 295 in the 987).

Think over 90% of VRT appeals are successful by the way.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632868#Comment_122632868

Yeah I did a good bit of research at the time and the smaller the M96, the less chance of IMS bearing failure. With my 2.5l at about 2-3%, to put things into perspective. It's not like of all these engines are failing at all. Also average mileage is good. Low and high mileage are bad. And it helps if the car has been tracked.

The figure of 90% successful VRT appeals is meaningless unless we know original demand vs settled value. It's hardly any better if your €20k bill is dropped to €18k, is it? A car bought on Irish plates would turn out to be much cheaper.

MarkN

I did hear of someone who appealed and won and then received a tax audit.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633014#Comment_122633014

I appealed VRT and won (got every cent back) on my first Tesla Model S, but never got a tax audit thankfully 😀

MarkN

don’t know why they just can’t have these cars on the VRT site, they were present for years.

flyer_query

s2000 and rust, advise googling it

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633014#Comment_122633014

Haha - so do I - was a big ticket item Porsche afaik.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633137#Comment_122633137

Were they? I regularly had a look at the VRT calculator for many years until I bought my 986 in 2016 and no Porsche had ever been on it until then.

MarkN

Yeah, M3s, S2000s etc … then they all disappeared so they can pluck numbers out of the sky!

MarkN

A 2.7 987 popped up over the last few days, looked ok in the pictures. Went to view today and absolute dirt in reality and looking for strong money. Corroded alloys, faded headlights, filthy interior with wear and tear marks all over it. Damn Brexit.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122695260#Comment_122695260

Sorry you wasted your time. You'll be paying big tax on a 987 for a long time. Would you not aim for a 986 instead? The early ones will go vintage tax in just 2 years time, this will very likely raise their value too.

MarkN

Not against a nice 986 at all. In fact I kind of like that they’re the first Boxster ever.

MarkN

https://oldcolonelcars.co.uk/listing/porsche-968-sport-preview-advert/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAab2a0lKvLvDcgn2uANm5eEgokTDFW0X3LSeiE-zj7W9B06JV_6DhNdz0Xw_aem_uxWAjXNP-HQlyLCtvrrHxA

hmmm…

Won’t be 30 until Feb 2025 so the €200 VRT wouldn’t apply until then.

MarkN

interestingly, this was first reg in NI. Presume that would suffice for no customs etc albeit currently in England…

https://www.dukeoflondon.co.uk/product-page/2001-porsche-boxster-s-manual

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698940#Comment_122698940

You could pick these up 10 years ago for half nothing. I think they are now overpriced. They are basically a further developed 924 with half the engine from a 928. Also the VRT might be a flat €200 fee when it hits 30, but you still owe 10% duty and 23% VAT on top of the invoice value. Unless you go the new NI route

MarkN

On the revenue doc is says previous owner but I wonder would the fact that the 986 was first reg in NI supersede that..

unkel

Finding a copy of the V5C with the previous NI owner on it will be tricky methinks. And you would still owe VRT, which can be substantial. I would primarily look for Irish reg cars if you want a Boxster

MarkN

rang VRT, only the most recent owner counts anyway.

MarkN

not really a classic but the search has taken a slight twist… maybe. I can insure a 2007 Boxster S fully comp with Aviva for €486 but now that a 997 911 has been thrown into the mix, Aviva won’t provide a quote online and the cheapest I’ve found this evening is Axa at €1600!! Anyone any experience of insuring them? I’ve a clean record, no points, max NCB etc

Barrett still covering them do you know @unkel ?!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715624#Comment_122715624

You know the answer to this Mark. You have just got to ring them all, brokers included. For non-classic insurance of performance cars, for years I got the best deal through Glennon's

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715624#Comment_122715624

Autoline insured any Porsche over 10 years of age as classic a few years back - assuming they still do, it might be an option if you have another car there.

Never went through the full process of getting a quote on a 911 - the cayman was easy to insure online, nowhere would offer an online quote on a 911. Didn't really understand it myself - no major difference in value or performance at the time.

MarkN

got €1300 through the crowd Unkle mentioned.

Went to view a 987 Boxster with 15,000 miles on the clock also today.

The 911 certainly feels the more special of the two compared to the Boxster, the latter feeling much lighter but for the use it will get, I’m not sure if the 911 is worth the extra outlay. A better investment perhaps though. Boxster is a much fresher car but I did love the 911 also.

Head is quite wrecked to be honest 😀

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720002#Comment_122720002

From my research into the IMS bearing failure issue, it is more prevalent the bigger the M96/M97, the more likely the failure. Also happens more on very high and very low mileage cars. And far less likely on cars that have been tracked. The oil must have splashed around beautifully on those 😁

Mine was an average mileage (90k miles) 2.5l car, which only had a chance of about 2-3% of developing the issue, so I did not bother getting the preventative maintenance done

MarkN

yeah it’s a bit of a maze - this particular Boxster anyway. The 911 has endless receipts and history and is an Irish car from new. IMS has been done, checked for scoring and is not present.

The Boxster is aesthetically a brand new car. I actually can’t believe the condition of it. There is not one single receipt or inch of paperwork to document a service but it cannot have not been serviced since 2007! I’ve driven it and there’s no metallic tapping, engine and exhaust sound exactly as they should. It had some water damage in a UK Porsche dealership when it was a brand new car so is Cat D/N. Current owner barely drove it from the MOT paperwork mileage.

It would be a car that if I did decide to buy would be going straight to a specialist to have perishable items replaced and a full service carried out.

A lot of the above on the 987 would make me just say it’s not worth the gamble but there’s just so little wear I can’t help but wonder…

a very helpful link for anyone else considering one

https://www.hartech.org/images/downloads/Hartech%20Buyers%20Guide%202021.pdf

unkel

A Porsche is not precious or delicate. They are built well and they are meant to be used hard. I personally would prefer a car with average mileage and a more normal history to that one.

As for an indy, go to Ken Bolger of Specialist Cars in Chapelizod

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720928#Comment_122720928

Yeh, but you'd rather start with a very tidy one than an average one that needs some tidying.

I used Ken too - would recommend.

MarkN

my head says 911 and so does my heart so that makes zero sense but I wish I could get more on the Boxster in terms of paperwork. I was thinking about asking Porsche Belfast if they do pre purchase inspections but it’s probably not their bag…

And I think I’ll keep thinking about the 911.

kdevitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722682#Comment_122722682

Sounds like you should get a 911!

This crowd comes up as a recommendation for a PPI up north

Car Sales & Service, Repairs & Parts in Antrim from McMillan Specialist Cars - 028 9335 4911

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722800#Comment_122722800

Agreed. Just get a 911 Mark. It will likely be a car you will keep for a long time, it's kinda end game. It will likely also hold its value well