The other bidder

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635083#Comment_122635083

Not in my case anyway. I can see why. Mortgage approval is a huge hassle and then if you go Sale agreed you have to do it all again.

But it would be interesting to know at how far expired would cause an EA to reject your bids.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122634818#Comment_122634818

I've had to satisfy a few EAs over a twelve month period on updating the date of my AIP or they wouldn't take my bid.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635193#Comment_122635193

Perhaps but there was no phantom bidder bidding it up. It was also 2012 and it eventually sold for less a year later.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635137#Comment_122635137

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635193#Comment_122635193

It was too low given the vendor's expectations. But the property was subsequently sold at a still lower price, suggesting that the vendor may have adjusted their initially unrealistic expectations.

The estate agent's reaction when alias no. 9 declined to submit a higher bid might suggest that he, too, thought that the vendor's initial expectations were unrealistic. So, though the bid was low relative to the vendor's expectations, it was not necessarily low relative to the market value of the property.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635431#Comment_122635431

Your bid was probably right for the value you put on the property, but too low for the value the seller put on it.

How does one tell the difference between a genuine bidder and a phantom bidder?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635530#Comment_122635530

If you're bidding against them, you generally can't; that's the point. If the estate agent tells you he has received a higher bid than the one you put in, he could be gambling that by lying to you he will elicit a higher bid from you, but you have no way of knowing that he is. Or, that he isn't.

In this particular case, however, there was no phantom bidder because there was no suggestion that there was another bidder; alias no. 9 was simply told that his bid (which was below the asking price) was too low and the seller wouldn't accept it.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635530#Comment_122635530

You don't, but that's the point. It was wide open for a phantom bidder but none materialized.

It was a blessing in the end, I'm sure it would have made a fine home but we bought a bigger home in a better location.

Bid based on what you think it's worth and leave others do their own thing. If it looks like a bidding war, back out, bidding up the price of this one creates expectations for the next one but there'll be one less bidder for that.

Bobson Dugnutt

Estate Agents aren’t making up phantom bids. It’s simply not worth their while. They are working on behalf of the seller and not the prospective buyer though. They are there to get the best price for the seller. That doesn’t involve making up fake bids though. Urban legend.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635661#Comment_122635661

Indeed, Just because the highest bidder pulls out doesn't mean it was a phantom bidder or the agent "taking bids off the wall". They could have gone a bit over, but lender computer say NO.

magicbastarder

The thing is, it's near impossible to prove the other bidder was phantom. But the experience I mentioned above, I'd be more than probably 50% confident there was a phantom bidder given how much the EA managed to undermine his own credibility.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635738#Comment_122635738

It didn't happen me that a winning bidder pulled out and I was offered Sale,

But my plan in that scenario was to revert to my offer at the point where it was higher than all other bidders apart from the "pull out" bidder.

Bobson Dugnutt

There isn’t a phantom bidder. You could lose your psra licence, your business or franchise could be taken off you, the seller could sue you. For what? A couple of hundred quid extra in commission? It simply does not happen. An estate agent wants lots of stock and for sales to close quickly.

magicbastarder

How do you prove there was no other bidder? How many cases have there been where an EA lost their license through such malpractice? I'd be curious as to the mechanism whereby the PRSA can investigate an EA and revoke a licence, based on the complaint of a would be buyer.

And lastly, why would the seller sue?

Bobson Dugnutt

You can’t prove there is no other bidder. The agent isn’t making up fake bids. He might be in contact with the seller who is looking for more, or for a bidder who isn’t part of a chain. But an agent isn’t making up fake bids. It makes no sense. Say a house goes up for 600k and reaches 700k. That’s a difference of 1000 quid in commission for the estate agent business. Or approximately 100-120 quid for the agent themselves.
There is no business who is going to threaten their livelihood, reputation, franchise for a thousand quid. Or an agent who is going to do it for a couple of hundred quid.

A seller would be entitled to sue you for making up fake bids on a property you are acting as a sales agent for. You might jeopardise their own purchase etc.

Phantom bids do not happen. Some people simply won’t accept that, but that’s their issue.

magicbastarder

that was my point; if you can't prove there was no other bidder, the threat of losing your licence based on doing that does not exist. i.e. you can't say an EA wouldn't do it, for fear of losing their licence; when that fear does not exist. because the PRSA would need to prove there was no other bidder to take action.

like i said, i've had an experience with an EA where they've behaved shadily enough that the existence of phantom bidders almost becomes logical.

but whatever the truth of the matter, you're turning absence of evidence into evidence of absence. i can't argue against that because it's not an argument.

FWIW we did try to complain to the IAVI (this was in 2003) about the behaviour of that EA. they offered no assistance, and in fact seemed confused by the notion of someone wanting to make a complaint.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636065#Comment_122636065

The prospective buyer can't prove three was no other bidder. But the seller can, and it's to the seller that the estate agent owes his fiduciary duty

The main risk of disciplinary action against an estate agent is if his own client complains. The risk, if the agent fabricates a higher bid from a non-existent buyer, is that the sale falls through as a result. If the seller later gets to hear that the top genuine bidder pulled out when told about a higher bid that was never put to the seller (because it was fictitious) the estate agent is in serious, serious trouble.

How likely is it that a seller would hear about this? This is Ireland; it's a small country; it's not at all unlikely that through social or other connections a seller will come into direct or indirect contact with someone who was a prospective buyer for their house. Not every time, of course, but it only has to happen once, so an estate agent who made a habit of this would likely be detected sooner or later.

FWIW, I've owned two houses and, for both of them, I have come into contact with former owners — in one case, the owner that I had bought from, but never actually met during the transaction; in the other, an owner one step further back. So an estate agent employing a strategy that he has to conceal from the owner and whose success depends on owners and prospective buyers never meeting — well, that's a crazy risk. I can't see many estate agents doing that for a couple of hundred euros each time the strategy is pursued successfully.

Is it possible that an estate agent tells a buyer about a fictitious bid with the knowledge and agreement of the seller? This is also risky since it is improper for the agent to do this even with his client's agreement. So if they do this and it works out badly, the estate agent is again in a sticky situation — his client may regret pursuing the strategy, blame his agent for getting him into it, argue that he was badly advised, and complain about the agent. If that happens, the agent is cactus, because "my client agreed" is not an exculpation in this situation.

So, yeah, I'm not saying that no estate agent would ever take a stupid risk for a trivial amount of money. But any agent doing this would be taking a stupid risk for a trivial amount of money, and the notion that this happens regularly but is somehow never detected is not very plausible to me.

Former Former Former

The estate agent is obliged to keep a record of all offers received.

If anyone genuinely thinks they have been suckered by phantom bids, they can complain to the PRSA who can ask the agent for the details of the bids.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636440#Comment_122636440

This, and any bids over the phone, follow up with an email.

o1s1n

I'll give you a great example of the opposite happening.

When I was buying my current house, we'd viewed 50 properties over 4-5 months, had been in bidding wars on about approx 10-15 and were at our wits end with the whole process. Close to giving up.

We viewed our current house, really loved it, was in the exact location we wanted, but after all of the above assumed there was no point even trying to win a bidding war. There were also about 10 other people viewing the house with us. Not a chance would we get it.

For the sake of it, we just threw in our maximum bid which was 30k over the asking price just to be outbid quicker and then move on.

The EA came back, told us we were being silly bidding so far over asking and to just offer the asking price. So we did that instead.

They came back with a counter offer from the seller that was 5k over the asking price and we went sale agreed.

We were more than happy to pay 30k over asking just to secure the house and be done with the whole house buying process and in the end ended up paying just 5k over, all down to the EA being a decent human being. They saved us 25k.

That was three years ago this month and I'm still in shock to this day.

SupaCat95

It is near impossible to prove. However you do call the EA out, its simply going to be they solt in their buddies name, phone number and bid. They are a tight knit social circle and they dont rat eachother out.

You know the market you are bidding in. You know the property price register exists? You know what has sold for the last 2 years and comparible properties.

Watch for lines, where they try to tug at the heart strings. "The doctor at the hospital is bidding on it" but when you question them on it they withdraw, why tell those details in the first place? The family are in a chain and need to move soon. Another "N" should do it.

FFeel free to add more. EA's are pond scum. Trust your gut. If you are bidding beyond the market value you are against a phantom bidder.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636440#Comment_122636440

But that FACTUAL comment and the FACT that the PRSA have taken action against agents and fined them substantial amounts just doesn't cut it with the narrative of a type of person that says all agents are crooked - same type of person tends to believe covid didn't exist, 5g causes cancer and the earth is flat and its all the gubberments fault.

They're best ignored

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122624509#Comment_122624509

this is completely correct. They want to sell your house quickly, not for the best price.

arctictree

When the other bidder pulls out though, why should you honour your last offer when it was made based on the fact that you were bidding against someone?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636686#Comment_122636686

Well I suppose they have the house, you want the house.

In a market with a massive supply shortage, the ones with the 'thing' are the ones in control. They can just refuse to sell it to you at any price lower than your most recent offer.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636686#Comment_122636686

This is a fair point.

But bidding on houses is one of the most stressful things you'll ever do.

If an estate agent phones you to tell you the other bidder is out and the house is yours, very few people will look to reopen the process, you'll jump at the chance to lock it down.

Bobson Dugnutt

There is no phantom bidder.

There just isn’t. I know getting out-bid on a property is very disheartening, as is seeing the market go even higher when you are struggling to purchase, but it isn’t some estate agent trick. The other bid is real, will come with initial proof of funds, a good agent will also keep everyone who has put in a bid informed of new bids.

The highest bidder can fall through for a whole host of reasons and then they will go back to the underbidder seeing if they want to match the offer. They will also talk with the owner about timelines. Some folks can hold on for months waiting for a higher offer, while others might need a quick call as they themselves have a bid in on a property.

There are no phantom bidders. Estate agents want lots of properties that sell quickly and close even quicker.

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636882#Comment_122636882

What annoys me is that in a normal fair auction, the highest bidder wins. But in this case, you bid to your max and then are told that the other bidder cant complete. So why were they bidding in the first place. How is that fair?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636440#Comment_122636440

Has that been in place long? Like I mentioned, my negative experience was in 2003 (and I ended up buying the house anyway after the other bidder(s) pulled out); and the lack of professionalism I saw back then was stupid at times. E.g. on another house at an open viewing, the EA 'outing' me in front of a bunch of other people as being the person with the current highest bid. Being cced on emails with other bidders details, etc. The market was hot at the time and I got the impression if you could tie a tie, that was enough for some EAs to hire you.

We sold that house in 2012 and bought our current one that year too, and dealt with far less incompetence. By then the fly by nighters had probably gone out of business.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636943#Comment_122636943

why were they bidding in the first place

People bid and pull out for all sorts of reasons. I did it myself, we were sale agreed, had done the survey, measured for furniture, put my own house on the market… and then just decided it wasn't the right move after all. There was nothing dishonest about it.

Again - you aren't obliged to agree to the sale at your last bid either. You're free to revert to an earlier bid, and if you know the seller is in a chain, maybe you know they're in a hurry to sell and will agree. But most people will snap it up rather than risk yet more buyers entering the fray for the sake of a grand or two.

magicbastarder

Ina rapidly rising market you're under even more pressure to close when you get the chance - because pulling out and delaying an eventful purchase by another few months can easily see what you'll need to spend on a house rise by five figures.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636887#Comment_122636887

It is amusing that in one single paragraph, you stated three times phantom bidders don't exist. You seem very passionate about defending estate agents. Are you an estate agent yourself Bobson?

Bobson Dugnutt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638106#Comment_122638106

I am not an estate agent. I just know that phantom bidders do not exist. It’s not something that happens.

Has it ever happened? I’m sure it might have back in the Celtic Tiger, but not worth it these days in a regulated industry. It’s not worth it financially, you could lose your livelihood for literally 200 quid extra, it could jeopardise the sale, Ireland is a small country where things get found out eventually.

Estate agents want a market where there is lots of stock, people ready to go, quick sales, preferably no chains. It’s a volume game.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632918#Comment_122632918

Been going on for years, over 30 years ago I remember going to visit a farm with my father, found out years later it was because my father was bidding on it, because it was owned by a brother of a work colleague of his. Was only doing it to force a neighbour to pay more. My father would not know one thing about farming !

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638146#Comment_122638146

I just know that phantom bidders do not exist.

this is an absurd statement. absurd as in, it violates the most simple laws of logic. you are stating that (taking an arbitrary time frame, say the last three years), you know that not a single EA in the country has invented a fake bid.

you have referred to a regulated industry - again, i'd ask; has the PRSA ever taken any action against an EA? especially over something as difficult to prove over something, which by definition, does not exist?

a single case of the PRSA taking punitive action against an EA (which i assume would be public information) would be informative.

the lack of any such action would also be informative.

magicbastarder

in short - what i am saying is that we don't know if fake bidders exist. but if someone knows (in the sense that they do actually know), we can say that in theory their knowledge is trustworthy. but someone cannot claim to know that they don't exist; so i immediately distrust someone who claims that they know they don't.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638297#Comment_122638297

Schrodinger's Estate Agent.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636487#Comment_122636487

well that agent breached its duty to its client!

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638146#Comment_122638146

you assume that phantom bidders exist only to pump up prices, in some cases, I can imagine some agents might use the prospect of another bidder to push a single bidder to the price which a vendor will accept rather than the lowball they might ignore.

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638297#Comment_122638297

You are correct of course but I’ve seen this thread, or a version of it, popping up every now and again over the years and I’ve yet to see any actual proof of it happening! I’m sure it does occur occasionally but I would be very surprised if it’s not just isolated incidents!

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640236#Comment_122640236

It's a weird one, isn't it?

To this day I still don't understand why they didn't bite my hand off at 30k over asking.

I mean, I'm glad they didn't, but I cant figure out their motivation beyond wanting to be 'fair'. (which goes against everything I've ever experienced with estate agents previously)

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636487#Comment_122636487

Something similar happened us… though not as many properties than you…

We were even sale agreed & contracts signed (on our side) in an area/estate we really liked before the seller decided to not sell!!

had almost given up on the area after viewing another house that wasn't suitable (back garden severely overlooked), and when we were leaving saw the For Sale sign going up on another house in the same estate.. submitted a bit €5k under asking (same estate agent we had for the above sale that fell through), and the EA came back and said if we offer asking, the house is ours and it's off the market the same day…..

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633332#Comment_122633332

I can back this up, I'm from outside the town and know well the tramps you were dealing with.

SupaCat95

Ohhhh this guy was real special. Dumb as a bag of hammers and cock sure as the king of Siam. Another Clown declated, "I am just back off holidays and I cant believe this place is still available". The good lady was terrified the stairs was going to come off the wall.

TThe incest in the industry is unreal, cant wait to see it two generations later.

Hontou

'The incest in the industry is unreal'. Very true @SupaCat95 And the solicitors and surveyors are all part of it too. They know the real buyers out there, they let each other know when this buyer or that buyer has bought or if they can be pushed for more money. In fairness though, it is also part of them being able to find real buyers amongst the messers and tyre kickers in the market, so they can do their job of actually finding their clients the best buyer that will follow through with the purchase. The fake buyers, dreamers, and those who cannot keep up with their paperwork on mortgage applications probably cause more 'fake bids'.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646925#Comment_122646925

When I bought my house, the EA who sold it to me was a cousin of the vendor's solicitor.

MacDanger

The whole system of buying/selling/bidding on houses is fairly sh*te - I can't think of a single other thing that's sold in the same way. For most things, you either know the price (with or without room for haggling) or it's a straight up auction.

Wouldn't it benefit everyone in the long run if the process was faster and involved either less (e.g. sealed) bids or more transparent (e.g. online portal for a fixed period) bidding?

Is the process simpler in other countries?

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648775#Comment_122648775

Yes process is simpler in other countries and the quality versus price is superior.

People bid like looneys out of desperation.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648546#Comment_122648546

Is there any issue with that? The solicitor has no role in the bidding process, and they're both working for the vendor.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649401#Comment_122649401

It wasn't, but I would prefer a little bit of separation between them.