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Dealing with this wave of "validate my feelings, don't offer advice" mindset being adopted by women.
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17-09-2024 5:52am#1
I feel like the notion of fighting mansplaining has evolved into something more than that and I have noticed multiple women in my life really buying into the idea that men (and also women) should just validate and offer support and never give advice or help.
I've listened to my partner and my a female friend of mine (in two twosomes) talking about this stuff over beers and it is absolutely wild to me. The belief seems to be that all of a woman's feelings are valid and should be respected and supported. They say they would only ever support each other, and if they ever fell out over, they wouldn't get over it. They wouldn't really offer advice or criticism and men absolutely should not ever offer advice.
This stuff is absolute horseshlt. Feelings that come from hatred, or jealousy etc. are not valid and these things should be worked on by the person instead of embraced by them and others. And advice is important sometimes, regardless of whether or not it is unsolicited. They admit a lot of this is coming from Tik Tok and I swear it feels like there is an operation underway to break society apart.
In rock climbing, my partner has fun but has stalled technique-wise for a long time because I just don't bother helping her. After something like a year without help, a few days ago I tried and she started to get furious within seconds. I was simply giving her technique advice to engage her core better because she wasn't doing that. A normal friend or climbing partner would point this out within days and even a minute before, another woman in the gym was giving her beta advice no problem. Technique advice is like telling someone how to do a crossword while beta advice is like giving them the answer.
I feel like she is being radicalised in the most absurd way because she used the word mansplaining for this one technique thing I did for the first time in a year. I have consciously avoided giving any advice in any way because I know her shlthouse feminist reaction will wreck the day. She also seems to never work on her emotions and feelings and is a passenger on a wild ride through life where a bad moment can turn into a bad afternoon because all feelings are valid and feeling anger etc. is ok and should be embraced.
Is anyone else dealing with this nonsense? It seems so toxic to never be critical of one's own feelings and to expect others to fully support every single thing.
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Id probably bail
Tiktok is a red flag anyhow
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I tend never to offer advice or help myself. Rather I try to represent myself in the best ways possible and if someone comes to me asking for advice or help - I absolutely go all out to give it. And the more you are "on the path" the more people tend to seek your input. And you can find ways to signal your openness to be approached and asked.
Other solutions can be to try to offer advice in the guise of seeking it yourself. So to run with your climbing example I would probably approach that situation by saying "Can you show me how you do this I want to try it" and then explain why their way is not working for you and in turn say "I do it this way - can I show you how and get your feedback on how it works for you?"
I am not a fly on the wall though. I have simply no idea how you offer your critique or advice. You might be doing it in a way you are not self aware is not landing well. Two sides to every story and all that! That said though the partner you describe and her attitudes and reactions are not sounding like a person I would stay in a relationship very long with.
The term "mansplaining" has lost utility. When I hear it used these days it seems to mean ANY situation where a man is explaining something to a women. Which is just patently ridiculous.
What the phrase is MEANT to mean is situations where men explain or pontificate on specifically women's issues or women's experiences - or explain a topic to a woman that assumes her being a woman means she has no knowledge or experience of the subject. And women can be just as guilty of this in reverse too.
However I would not agree with you that feelings of hatred and jealousy are not valid. Or that feelings should not be validated, respected and supported. I think all feelings and emotions are equally valid. Hatred and jealousy as well as love have led people to do both wonderful and awful things.
So I am more concerned not with what people are feeling but what they choose to do WITH those feelings. The feelings are absolutely valid and respectable. But so too is the support or push back we can offer when those feelings are acted upon and expressed.
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Anyone who expects others to validate their every waking thought and feeling with no respect for the other persons perspective is becoming one of those other tik tok buzz personalities (a Narcissist).
But on the other hand, if you're in a relationship with someone, you should empathize with them. This means first listening to and trying to understand their point of view, and backing their decisions because you respect their judgement.
If your partner respects you, and confides in you and asks for your advice, then you should offer it if you feel it can help.
If your partner is so resentful of perceived criticism from you, it could be that she's being overly defensive, or maybe you're being overly critical or maybe there's just a communication breakdown and there's a bit of walking on eggshells because of some other unresolved conflicts...
If she's acting this way with everyone not just you, she might have attachment issues
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to be fair to OP he said that feelings of jealousy should be worked on , not embraced (which I fully agree with). He didn't say they weren't valid. Jealousy can be dangerous and toxic and it takes a great deal of maturity to work on your inner feelings around it as they usually reflect on oneself. TikTok is unlikely to help in that regard.
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Well actually yes they did say they were not valid. Explicitly. Here is a direct quote. Bolding from me:
"Feelings that come from hatred, or jealousy etc. are not valid and these things should be worked on by the person instead of embraced by them and others"
I think all ways are true. I think feelings can be valid AND can be embraced AND can be toxic AND can be worked on AND self reflection is almost always a good thing.
The word "instead" is not useful there I think. Nor is saying the feelings are not "valid".
I have always believed there are no "Good" or "Bad" feelings. "Love" is not automatically a good thing. "Hate" is not automatically a bad thing. Love can cause a lot of pain. Hate can cause a lot of good.
It's what the feelings do to us - or how we act on them - that is either good or bad. You say it well when you say jealousy "can" be dangerous and toxic. The word "can" is the important one there.
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As a woman the way you spoke here, both about her feelings and her reactions would also have me weary of how I approach talking to you and most certainly be walking on eggshells.
If someone asks for advice, give it. If they just are in need of a listening ear, then listen. Its not hard to figure out the difference.
Im also not a fly on the wall and dont know how its been previous to the past year but it reads like you're refusing to say anything as a throw your toys out of the pram and thats not going to help things either.
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You could simplify this post down to "As a woman, I support your girlfriend who is also a woman.", which is fittingly, exactly what this thread is about. If you knew her in real life, you would validate her reaction and statements, even though she herself has since apologised for them. Like be honest, would you ever tell her she was wrong? Have you ever straight-up told one of your girlfriends that were out of line with their reaction to something?
If you accuse your partner of mansplaining for telling you to keep your back straight while squatting, or to use both feet while cycling, or to use your core while climbing, or to be careful with a knife while chopping, that is entirely 100% on you and it doesn't matter what came before. Climbing is a dangerous sport. I was watching her flailing at a hold in a dangerous manner instead of doing it controlled with body tension, so I had to step in to offer advice in case she hurt herself.
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I mean we could simplify your post to "Men, support me as a man" what exactly are you looking for? I have absoluetly given my feedback and advise when its been looked for and welcomed. unsolicited advice when someone is upset or venting has a knack of pushing people away. I have also myself being told i over-reacted to something or someone. You've given a 2 person example and have pushed this as some mad feminist agenda.
Honestly do you think your partner needs to be told to be careful when chopping, or use both feet when cycling?? If she did the same (and with the same tone you're using here) to you would it be welcomed. Id hazzard that no it wouldnt. This isnt mansplaining either, its treating her like a child and that type of advice is grinding.
Is this potentially not her wild new feminist ways and perhaps her being fed up of you being overly critical?!
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Indeed. Like the old saying "Most arguments about the washing up actually have nothing to do with the washing up" I get the feeling that the extreme reaction to the offered advice perhaps has nothing whatsoever to do with the advice in that moment.
Rather it is somewhat likely there is some other deeper issue or resentment going on for which the offered advice was only a flash point. The OP has indicated staying stumm on offering advice for over a year now. Which means this was below the surface brewing on his side for at least a year. Perhaps something else is also brewing on her side too similarly expressed in only passive aggressive "toys out of the pram" levels.
Again we do not know. Even the OP probably doesn't know. But its the feeling I got from reading the OP and certainly warrants some OP introspection and communication.
That said though - while I do not think there is any right or wrong way to offer advice or lessons - over my years in teaching and guiding roles I have certainly learned methods that land better more often than not. I know how I would have approached the "engage your core while climbing" lesson for example. I had a very similar interaction very recently in fact.
Generally going over and blunting indicating someone is doing it wrong tends towards the "not" end of that spectrum for many people. From my youth I recall Harry Enfield had an amusing sketch character based on that: youtube.com/watch?v=eH56UOjDQ4A
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I myself would also not "straight up" tell my girlfriends they were out of line with a reaction to something either. So this is not just a "woman supporting women" thing at all. Because I myself am not one. I suspect you may in fact be viewing everything through the lens of your having lost patience with what you view as "feminist reactions".
What I tend to do more often than not with all humans - male female or children - is explore where their reactions are coming from without going down the "you are out of line" route at all. Because that approach tends to have the same effect of telling someone to "relax" or telling someone who is not talking that loud to "stop shouting". It's gasoline on the flames.
And since as I said above many reactions are not reacting to what you think they are in the moment - I find it's better to explore the roots of the reaction rather than hit the reaction itself head on.
I teach a dangerous sport myself. Not climbing but a sport that is just as prone to horrific injuries. But I rarely rush in with blunt "that way is wrong this way is right" advice. And that's even though I am there explicitly as a teacher and not just offering unsolicited advice in the moment. My specific role in the moment is to give lessons and advice. And even then I have learned over the years ways to go about it that land better on average.
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"Is this potentially not her wild new feminist ways and perhaps her being fed up of you being overly critical?!"
I'm not critical. Trying to help someone engage their core is not "critical". She knows this is what she should do, watches all the Youtube videos talking about, thinks she was doing it, but wasn't doing it. So I spent a few minutes showing her a way to help engage it.
I typically cheer her on and haven't said anything in ages. Once she sees another guy giving their female partner any advice, she is on edge. She tells me she's glad I don't do that. When she sees women or men give each other advice, or when another woman give her advice, she doesn't care. It's specifically when it's a man giving advice to a woman.
I prefaced the advice by saying that beta is different to technique and she should try this thing because it's important. I knew it was risky but felt it had to be done. It didn't matter and she reacted horribly. I pointed out that another woman gave her beta advice minutes before on a different climb and she just said "That's different."
It's obvious from your posts that you subscribe to the same ideas she does, thinking that any help is somehow parental and makes a woman feel like a child. I've seen the memes she sees and they follow the same idea where any input by a man is negative and demeaning. It's toxic and I'm posting here asking how to deal with it. In my previous seven-year relationship, there was nothing like this. For the first three years of this relationship, there was nothing like this. I'm 100% convinced it's coming from the internet because it's in the last year, I've heard her talking to other women about this topic, and also the "bear or a random man in the woods" thing where both her and my friend said they'd rather be eaten by a bear.
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If you can imagine it, you have a hold above you and in front of you for your right hand and foot. The way to do the move is to engage your core and straighten your leg so you raise your body slowly and reach the higher hold with your left hand. She had just been jumping using her left foot and kept falling.
The way I taught her to engage her core was on nice big holds next to that move with the same motion. First, just holding her position, then raising her body a bit which requires the core, then raising the body higher, and finally also raising that left hand. I could see her start to simmer through this but she went back to the climb she had worked on and instead of flailing with a wild jump, she did it by engaging her core.
Success. Except, a while later, she let it out and was seriously angry. She said the thing ruined her entire evening and I should just let her climb for fun.
I'm not even sure how to proceed. We haven't climbed since and I'm not even sure we should anymore. We climb outdoors, where it's actually dangerous, and now I feel like I just cannot say a word that could be construed as me giving input. A day at the crag with an angry partner is a nightmare, but someone getting injured is a lot worse.
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Never give advice to anyone who doesn't want it or won't appreciate it-you're wasting your time and energy, let them make their own mistakes.
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OP I'm going to say something radical here - all feelings are valid. They may not be good but they're valid. It's ok to feel things & someone trying to shut down your feelings to give advice on the topic is not going to end well. For years boys were told not to cry & girls not to get angry. However both of those are valid feelings and emotions & shouldn't be quashed.
In terms of validating them (which is different) & women not wanting advice - just ask the question if you're unsure "do you want advice, or do you just need to vent?". Sometimes when I'm talking about something that is annoying me, I'm not looking for a solution to it (as I'm working through that myself) but I need to get my frustration out.
Now in relation to the rock-climbing thing, that does sound a little different. You said that she reacts when she sees a man giving a woman advice - this could be down to something from before in her life where she was belittled by a man & is now reacting. I'm not saying that it's correct but it is valid if she's a background with something like that. In that case, how you frame the advice might be the most important thing. The example in #13 genuinely sounds like she was getting frustrated with herself & maybe your advice & input came at the wrong time & got her annoyed. Maybe she thinks your pushing her to do more than what she wants to see as a bit of a fun hobby. I'd just be honest & say that you're worried about getting injuries if you're both not doing things correctly & away from the safety of indoor climbing place.
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I don't think it's actually limited to women at all, I've had male aquitances come to me and complain about their financial situation and/or their health.
And I would suggest something like, well have you tried this support to stop vaping (the same person drops over a hundred euros a week on vapes and can't breath going up stairs). But I'll then get called names for daring to suggest such a thing.
I've another one who complains about how emotionally abusive his partner is, I've suggested the obvious solution, I.e. leave but again, a torrent of abuse.
It's just that you're exposed to more female narcissists than male ones based on your social circle.
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I am in a rather unusual relationship different to nearly everyone else in Ireland. Because of this I decided early on that communication would be the absolute priority in all things with them. The entire relationship revolves around communication. So reading your post(s) here feels quite alien to me. That you would choose to spend a year holding your tongue for example. That you feel you now can not give any input too. And most of all giving up something you enjoy doing because of it.
These things are all the exact opposite of what I strive for. So it is hard for me to relate. I need effort to get into that head space to empathise your situation. So I am trying.
In your position I would be sitting down with a "mea culpa" opening followed by inquiring into where her reaction was coming from. As much of the time as possible using "me" and "we" language rather than "you" language. So I could open for example with a "Ok I understand my input was unwelcome the other day - my bad I am sorry about that - but I was quite taken aback by your reaction to it and I need help to understand where that was coming from. Can you help me with this so we don't screw this up again in the future?"
Compare that to for example another possible approach of "By the way the way you reacted the other day was completely out of line. You were in a dangerous position and doing it wrong and I was just trying to show you the way!"
One approach is an openness to learn, to be wrong and does not "you" anything. The other is a "I was right and you were wrong" approach. It is not a "feminist reaction" in me that suggests one approach might land better regardless of whether you are engaging with a woman, a man, or a child. Or even an adult acting like a child.
And if you were to take the approach I would take - be prepared that the answer MAY be that how you land your advice might bear some critique. As I said before I was not a fly on the way so I not only do not know what you said - but I do not know how you said it. And self awareness is not a strong point of our species. It is quite possible how you landed it was awful and you do not realise it yet.
You also said to a user above that you are not critical. But you also said you spent a year intentionally not helping and keeping quiet. It is entirely possible that in your silence you were communicating your critique and judgements silently without you knowing you were doing it. Facial expression, noises, gestures, and more. By the time you spoke up after a year you MIGHT have been doing it on top of a year of her feeling all this coming off you. Again - without communication working out where she is coming from with her reaction you will never know.
Thanks for the description though. I know next to nothing about climbing really. I am more into martial arts and martial arts dance. I teach a lot of it too. So learning how to present and land advice, and teachings, and critiques has been a years long growing for me that is and likely always will be ongoing. There is always more to learn about teaching and guiding others.
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Reminds me of a date I went on where she (a garda) was giving out about an instructor that suggested she avoid or step back from certain situations given the risk of harm - she was calling him sexist. She proceeded to imply I was sexist when I asked an innocuous question. Life is definitely too short to be spending time with people like this.
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I think it's quite possible that how men are talked about by some and some other feminist-type discussions could negatively influence male-female interactions of various types, both platonic and romantic.
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my god the length of the posts- sorry don't have time to read them all .
If it hasn’t been said already @OP- try coaching - ask don’t tell - in terms of the rock climbing gig - get her to tell you where she’s struggling /doing well - ask her does she want some guidance-
But eh considering she’s your partner I would have thought she’d be used to you at this stage and would be more open to some helpful suggestions without going off on some rant
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To me, your idea of "mea culpa" and "opening to learn" is apologizing to a flat earther for telling them that the earth is in fact round. Apologizing when you did nothing wrong is just going to perpetuate this nonsense.
OP, if it was me I would be seriously considering escaping this relationship, this would be a deal breaker for me, having to bite your tongue all the time for the most benign of comments is ridiculous.
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One point being we do not actually know if the OP did or did not do something wrong. I have said it 2 or 3 times now but I will say it again. None of us were a fly in the wall. We do not really know what advice was offered, how it was offered, how it was worded, what tone, what attitude and much more.
Another point being that the "mea culpa" I describe is not just for the single moment here. But for whatever part the OP has played in what sounds like a year or longer of a break down in communication in the relationship. Again we do not know. But there is two sides to every story as they say. And my point is that if one simply charges in shouting how right they were and how out of line the other person was in that single moment - then progress may tend towards the unlikely.
Finally though if you see being "open to learn" in any relationship as some form of a weakness or a perpetuation of nonsense then I can only say we have very different head spaces on relationships to each other.
Many relationships hit a rock or travel down the wrong creek necessitating a new navigation. Abandoning ship is always an option as you describe. But its the blatantly obvious option. There are others and I am writing my posts above under the assumption the OP doesn't just want the obvious one parroted at him only.
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My experience is that when a woman (wife, sister, friend) comes to me with a problem, they generally just want an ear to listen to them rant. My instinct is to listen to the problem and propose a solution, but that is not what they are looking for. They just want to be heard, to get it off their chest.
So forget all the stuff about validating etc. The question is, do you want to provide something useful for this person or do you want to satisfy your own thirst for problem solving? If you want to be useful to a woman, in general that means listening to their problems and empathising. You don't have to validate what they have done, but you can empathise with the situation "that must have been really stressful" etc.
In general though, this is why women need girlfriends, because this kind of thing doesn't come naturally to men.
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So the OPs "partner" is, for whatever reason, incapable of taking well meaning, constructive advice from the OP and has done so for the past year.
Your advice is that the OP apologise for this and ask what they can do better?
Should the OP also get "Welcome Home" tattooed across their forehead, just to complete the door mat look?
The fact that you describe bailing as the "blinding obvious" solution should tell you something about this situation. This would be a toxic relationship in my opinion, akin to coercive control. If it was me I would be having some frank conversations with the other half and laying out exactly how I was feeling.
No one mentioned shouting about how they were right, but there are a world of options between that and bending over.In a true partnership, both side should be equally able to talk to each other, partners disagree and fight all the time, but it should never be that you have to hold back from basic, civilized conversation.
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While I agree in part with this, it must be possible to offer advice or criticism in a relationship for it to succeed. So even if your partner does not approach you with a problem, you should be able to offer unsolicited advice to a partner, or at least in my opinion you should.
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You've somewhat misrepresented the OP there and added fantasy of your own. When you said the OPs partner has been incapable of taking advice for a year. We do not know that. You've made that bit up.
All we know is that the OP for whatever reason has NOT given advice for a year because the OP - not the OPs partner - decided this was the way to go. The OP themselves wrote they "just don't bother" helping.
You do not know why. I do not know why. But for whatever reason communication in that relationship broke down on that issue and maybe others for all we know too. And I unlike you do not assume this is all one sided. It usually takes two to tango but I minimise all assumptions when I write posts like these.
So the "mea culpa" I myself would use in that scenario is to assume that I have at least some part in that break down. Whether it is 50:50 or 40:60 or 10:90 or even 1:99 I do not care. Some part of it is likely me. And if I genuinely want to resolve an issue then going into it assuming I have some blame in the equation and embracing that humility is likely to offer a better resolution than charging in claiming to be right and that the other person is "out of line". Or to charge in just telling them how their actions made me feel and make it all about me.
That latter approach has a tendency to make people put up walls and defenses and double down.
That you see such humility as "door mat" and "bending over" says everything about you and nothing about me. Humility is not a weakness. And expression of humility is not a defeat or a "bending over" but can be part of an aggressive go get 'em approach to life. And it is entirely compatible with the other things you listed such as laying out exactly how you were feeling. You appear to think what I suggest is mutually exclusive with the things you suggest. The exact opposite is true. They go together perfectly.
And what I meant about the "blindingly obvious" comment is that this is the internet. Go through the "relationship and personal advice" forums on this site. There is almost always someone who comes into each thread saying "ditch them and move on". It's practically the internet knee jerk response almost regardless of what the OPs topics are about.
So I tend to write my posts with the assumption in mind that this advice is obvious and default and that the OP has already consider it so the writer of any thread is hoping for something a bit more nuanced and different. This is not always true of course. Sometimes OPs just want to echo chamber their already held conclusions and have their already made decision validated. But I still write under the opposite assumption all the same.
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To offer unsolicited advice for what ultimate purpose? Because the partner's behaviour annoys the person offering advice?
If the motivation for giving advice is the wellbeing of the person to whom it is given, then the fact that the person reacts negatively to the advice means that it is counterproductive and will not achieve the stated aim. In that case, he needs to find another way to help his partner.
If the motivation is because the person offering the advice finds the behaviour of their partner annoying, then they probably need to find a partner whose habits are more in line with their own, or a partner for whom they have more respect. Would he offer the same advice to a respected friend, or to a boss?
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