Amazon WFH Policy

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638684#Comment_122638684

As long as the company replaces those roles with someone more Dublin based, they probably arent too concerned.

The situation probably worked out well for everyone.

Those that made the leap early were probably more likley to get a fully remote job than people trying to do the same thing now, as the RTO movement gathers pace.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636116#Comment_122636116

I think this is an unspoken reason for companies wanting staff in the office.

Managers will say they are not sure what Jimmy is doing and they are online/offline all day. Kids arent in creche anymore....hmmm.

You cant have one rule for Jimmy because he has little kids and another for everyone else, sure just bring them all back into the office and problem solved.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636149#Comment_122636149

Where were all these staff based up until 2019 or even early 2020?

Companies do have a responsibility to support the well being of their employees, of course. But that doesnt mean they have to accommodate requests to work from home, when such an arrangement is not stipulated in the contract that the employee signed.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639175#Comment_122639175

They actually haven't filled all those roles yet. Can't get staff.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637367#Comment_122637367

firstly tone down your language ,

Secondly just because whatever outpost of the civil service you work in has adopted them doesn’t mean they work in all scenarios, we do business in a lot of southern European countries and they require wet ink , notarised and apostilled documents for certain things , try doing that from home.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638244#Comment_122638244

The poster listed some of the positives of office work, better collaboration on projects, team bonding and so on.

If they were fully WFH they would miss out on those benefits and so would the employer.

Company loyalty is a big factor in RTO. If someone is hired and is WFH full time from the start, they don't meet colleagues and may not really feel part of the team. Equally, the rest of the team may not bond with them either, because they have never met them.

That employee is probably more likley to move jobs than someone that felt a connection to their team and had built personal relationships with colleagues.

Employee churn is a big cost to business, so having a whole team of folks that aren't invested in the company is a major risk.

It's easy to become a mercenary if you are fully WFH and that's a risk to the employer.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639210#Comment_122639210

They will in time.

And once the roles are filled, they don't have the problem again as anyone applying thereafter knows the office time expectations.

Makes for a smoother ride in the long term for the business.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636459#Comment_122636459

Scanning, print and sign. No sign of the paperless office there.

techdiver

I've always said that companies that do this simply want to reduce staff numbers and this is a cheap coercive way to do so without redundancies.

Second to this, with the loss of good will from workers who do stay they will not get this magical "improvement in productivity" that they yearn. You think staff that are forced to commute 3 to 4 hours a day will be as productive as they were at home? Complete myth.

My company implemented the same full return this year with no evidence of any issues in productivity. It was simply the ego maniacs at the top who feel uncomfortable not seeing their vanity project office space filled with miserable people. The stupidity of forcing people as part of a global team into an office to then attend virtual teams meetings the same as they did at home. All whilst being more miserable and more tired. Genius management!

It's dinosaur thinking from dinosaur managers.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639184#Comment_122639184

If you don't know what you staff are doing unless your standing over their desk watching them the problem isn't WFH.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639194#Comment_122639194

I also wonder how many of the employees are commuting 90mins each way to the midlands?

They must live miles away. Again, not the fault of the company if an employee chooses a job with an unmanageable commute.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639296#Comment_122639296

I understand your point but If they are working in the office, you dont need to stand over them. You know they are not minding the kids.

SuperBowserWorld

There are going to be a lot of miserable dogs howling and barking all day all over the country, and driving the neighbours mad, if people have to go back to the office full time.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639248#Comment_122639248

Similarly it's easier to change jobs than deal with a dinosaur management culture. Might find somewhere with an easier to commute to also.

SuperBowserWorld

I don't really care so much for AWS workers as they get great benefits, salary, share options etc ... it's just the rest of us plebs who might have to go back full time if this becomes a precedent.

One huge advantage of covid for me is that I can work from home and also the company actually started cleaned the office properly and regularly since covid. But the 3+ hours per day, especially in Winter is a complete depressing waste of time and money and health.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639221#Comment_122639221

Cyrus, on every single thread I've seen you post on relating to WFH you are always completely negative. You look for trivial reasons to argue why more people should be back working from offices, and why employers should make them go back. It gets tedious.

If, in whatever role you do, there is a need to send paper and ink documents abroad, that still does not mean someone needs to be physically present in an office five days a week to do it. Maybe you need to look into modernising your practices.

And before you try to throw shade at my "outpost of the civil service" again, (and by association, all civil servants) I also deal with international companies on a daily basis. I was also involved in developing DPER's Blended Working Framework for the entire civil service, so you'll be disappointed to hear that a return to 5 days a week in the office is not going to be happening with this employer, (unless full time WFO is something the employee wants, and asks for themselves - then they will be facilitated.)

Give your constant negativity a rest.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639335#Comment_122639335

What you're inadvertently admitting is you've no productivity or output metrics. People can be sitting at a desk doing nothing.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639363#Comment_122639363

I don’t actually , I have a blended set up myself 3 days in the office 2 days wfh, works great. I take issue with people advocating for fully remote roles because it happens to suit them and their reasons are largely self serving. So you have misrepresented me again.

If you understood my post around documents that need to go abroad you’ll understand modernising our practices wouldn’t matter even a little bit to a civil servant in Spain or Italy would it ?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639263#Comment_122639263

lot of exaggeration about people’s commute in this thread , 4 hours a day ? That’s an outlier

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639248#Comment_122639248

On the contrary. Two of the roles I mentioned were technical specialists and all attempts to replace them have failed. Admin staff have left and not been replaced.

There is a difficulty recruiting and retaining staff, especially in the more junior admin grades. Living costs in Dublin are expensive, and WFH at least allows staff to minimise the impact on their pocket if they can live/rent in another county and only have to commute into Dublin once/twice a week.

Off the top of my head, we currently have staff commuting in from Wexford, Waterford, Cavan, Galway, Leitrim and Limerick…. to mention a few.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639372#Comment_122639372

They can, but I think most companies accept that if people are doing nothing in the office, it will be noticed.

If nothing is being done from home, they wont necessarily notice.

I agree with you that some companies have better ways to monitor productivity, but many do not.

I am not a manger personally, but i have heard various people question "what does Jimmy or Mary actually do from home, i'm always doing the work" etc.

The perception is real that some people dont work well from home and if employees think it, you can be sure the managers are thinking it also.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639263#Comment_122639263

In my experience the vast majority of places have no metrics on productivity. This thread has many examples where it's obvious people are locked into obsolete work and management processes, because they reveal them constantly.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639388#Comment_122639388

I don't agree. Because if they are asking the question "what does X do" they don't have metrics. Equally saying I know if X is in the office they are working is also saying you don't have metrics. It's the same flaw in logic.

Kurooi

I hope the leadership in companies that go against WFH and flexibility realize that they're cutting out a significant portion of the talent pool, and the better talent at that. Good people with strong CVs have better options, they can work for companies that give them better terms and generally more autonomy.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639380#Comment_122639380

You don't have assume anything. You can look at the census and see average commutes by county. In my section we have about 10% of people 2hrs or more away from the office. The census is one thing, but you should know your people.

Mine is about 2 hrs there and back. And I really notice how more tired I am on those days. Because most of it is standing on a train, clinging to a handle playing sardines, and trying not to catch anything.

And it's going to take time to recover when I get to the office, and I'm not taking a call or opening up the laptop when commuting. So the office has lost that flexibility from me on those days.

I'm sure we'll be replaced by AI without these issues. But good luck getting your ai to fix your printer for your paperwork lol.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639334#Comment_122639334

The company has no choice but to hire them due to the housing crisis.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639375#Comment_122639375

I don't have to misrepresent you, anyone can read your posts and tell by your attitude.

On another point, when I was working in a Dublin City Centre location 18kms away from my home (also in Dublin), I routinely endured a 2 hour a day return commute, but 3 hours was not at all unusual or infrequent, especially if it rained! And amongst my colleagues, I certainly wasn't an outlier at that. But I guess we must have all been collectively exaggerating.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639451#Comment_122639451

4 hours a day or 1 hour there and 1 back ?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639385#Comment_122639385

We are the same. It's very hard to get people. Even when you do, it's left huge gaps in business knowledge and experience that we've never got back with the new people. Lot of churn also. Obviously easier for people to get new jobs, than it is for organisations to hire people.

When you dealing with other organisations we hear the same back. Lack of resources. It's a real struggle to maintain contacts with them because they also have a lot of churn.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639466#Comment_122639466

If you mean me I missed a comma, 2hrs total, there and back.

I have in the past done 1:30 each way and for a while 2 hrs each way. But I'll never do it again. In hindsight it's never been worth the reward. Theres always been a better return for my time doing something else. It's along the 80:20 rule.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639459#Comment_122639459

My worst 2hr was crossing Dublin city. It's was slower than commuting from Dublin out to Meath or Wicklow.

People don't count the door to door. Time wasted getting to train station early, waiting on the platform. Waiting for the next train because this one is full or late. Or a convoluted parking system for the car or bicycle that adds 10-20 mins to exiting or entering a building.

Used to save chunks of time using a folding bike. Of course can't beat saving 2hrs working from home.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639454#Comment_122639454

I would imagine it's rare for a company to hire employees who cannot practically come into the office, then enforce a back to office mandate.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639410#Comment_122639410

I'm not saying they have metrics.

A lot of companies dont have metrics and its easier for those companies to monitor work in the office.

Not saying its right or wrong, but thats how it is.

antimatterx

I was in the office on Wednesday and literally couldn't work. The setup is ****, having to fight for meeting pods and room is painful and inevitably people take calls at their desk. It's such a distraction.

I literally get all of Thursday and Fridays work done on Friday morning in the peace of my home office. I've been getting meets and exceeds expectations for years and I guarantee I wouldn't if was in the office.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639660#Comment_122639660

Sounds like your place needs a bigger office!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639579#Comment_122639579

But what you described (and twice) was monitoring not the work, but someone sitting at a desk. It's not the same thing. Even if you think it is.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639660#Comment_122639660

One of our managers pushed hard to get their team in, pushed the whole social aspect, then complains bitterly about the noise in the office. To the point that everyone in that area walks around on egg shells. It's ridiculous.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639527#Comment_122639527

Looking at the commuting statistics it's the opposite.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639380#Comment_122639380

Go to a train or bus station/stop in Mullingar, Athlone, Tullamore etc and you'll see hundreds of people at a time commuting to Dublin (source I've done it myself).

A commute is not the journey time of the initial train/bus either. You need to travel from your home to the mode of transport. Then in many cases once you reach Connolly, Heuston, Bachelors Walk etc, you still need to travel to your place if work. Many of which are not close to the travel hubs. So you need a second bus, dart etc. For me and countless others the best case scenerio for getting to an office in Ballsbridge for example is 1.5-1.75 hours and depending on delays in public transport (spoiler, happens more regularly than not in Ireland) it can be longer. Then repeat again in the evening and you will not be too short of a combined 4 hours travel time.

Once again I stand by my assertion that there is weak managers who want people under their thumb on a daily basis. I've seen and read all the excuses and none if them wash with me. "Collaboration", "Office Dynamic", "Culture". I picture all these types as the typical Bill Lumbergh types. An impediment to productivity rather than what they would like to think themselves. If you think someone is unproductive at home it's laughable to think they'll be any better in the office.

Flinty997

Its utter bs.

That said a company can do what they like. People have to vote with their feet if they are unhappy with it.

Charlo30

I find the idea that somebody must be busy just because they are sitting at a desk in an office totally laughable. Someone could be pretending to read an important work document but in reality is day dreaming. But to any line manager they look busy.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639844#Comment_122639844

If companies dont have productivity metrics, they cant monitor work output remotely.

Most companies do not have digital productivity metrics, therefore they believe that they can monitor office work productivity more effectivley than they could via a WFH arrangement.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639987#Comment_122639987

Realised this years ago when started putting metrics on things. Quite often the person or manager who gives the impression of being under pressure or busy is the least busy person in the office.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640073#Comment_122640073

What is productivity anymore anyway for at least 25 percent of roles, if not more. Lots of very fluffy 'work' out there nowadays.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640043#Comment_122640043

Saying you can't work remotely because you don't have any mean's to monitor it. Is admitting they don't do it in the office either. Moreover that you've NEVER done it in the office.

They said a company doesn't have to justify it's decisions to staff. So they don't bother.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639895#Comment_122639895

Yep, people don't include the total journey time from door to door. It's easily 1.30 to 2 hours for me each way. I can "hack" it by getting a very early express bus so I don't get stuck in school traffic or cycle to the railway station.

Then the agony of adults and kids listening to the phones on speaker or standing most of the way, especially on the return journey. And the panic of trying to get to a bus or train to get to work on time, and get home. Every ******* day.

Then 8 hours in the office. 9-6 (hour for lunch), 40 hour week. When I work from home I often do extra time because I don't notice it and I don't have the ******* mad rush to get out of the office and try and get a standing position on the ****** train.

What a waste of a life.

I'd even work 2 extra hours per day for free to avoid my commute. Hell it is.

That's happy path scenarios above, Oh, it gets worse when it rains, and when trains/buses are cancelled, strikes, ... I ******* hate Brendan Ogle ...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640080#Comment_122640080

Isn't that the truth.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640119#Comment_122640119

This is it in a nutshell. If I'm forced into the office it's physically impossible for me to be as productive. Add to that, if I'm forced back in those 11pm customer issues an get fucked. That extra mile to get a release out the door, not my problem. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would think like that. The amount of extra work I do as a result of working from home is massive.

If feeble minded upper management want to ruin that goodwill I would make it my mission to only do the minimum of what's required for the company (without **** on my other team members) and I would encourage everyone else in the same boat to do likewise.

Let them calculate "the metrics" of staff who go above and beyond then.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639895#Comment_122639895

The statistics on average commute times would suggest otherwise.

The threads are also full of people who think da management haven’t a clue, strange that. Yet these posters aren’t management but amongst some of the most productive individuals in Ireland, I can’t quite square it.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639459#Comment_122639459

You interpret things how you want to but that doesn’t make you right. Look at the average commute time stats , commutes of that length aren’t the norm. Just seems like most posters in this thread have them, hence the fear of a return to office mandate. Curiously everyone is far more productive at home as well, one can only assume there has been a spate of long overdue promotions in the last few years!