URC and English Premiership Merger Rumours

legendary.xix

I'm trying to figure out how the rumoured URC and English Premiership might look. The URC currently has 16 teams. The English Premiership has 10 teams. If all were part of a merger, you'd want to retain the Irish provinces playing each other home and away.

The Champions Cup could be squeezed into 4 or 5 knockout rounds.

The current URC has 18 league rounds and 3 playoff rounds, taking 21 weekends in total. URC and English Premiership merger could take up to 24 or 25 weekends if the Champions Cup is reduced to 4 or 5.

If Irish Provinces have 6 games home and away against other provinces, they potentially can only take on 14 of the remaining 22 teams. That enters Swiss Model territory like the current UEFA Champions League.

Further Rumours suggest a British & Irish League formed, with the South Africans and Italians excluded.

That would be a currently more manageable 20 clubs. Tommy Bowe has long argued that Wales should probably have only two professional clubs like Scotland. Possibly 18 clubs in a British & Irish League would be more sustainable?

In an 18 team British & Irish League, Irish provinces could play a manageable 20 league games. 6 interpro games and 14 one off games against the others.

The knockout stages for a British & Irish League should be a straightforward top 8 of 18 into quarter-finals.

Between the British & Irish 18 and the French 14, 16 clubs could enter a knockout European Cup.

The poor Italians might have to join the French pyramid. The South Africans on their own unless they link in with their Southern Hemisphere counterparts again.

pickarooney

This is not happening. Why waste time on it?

OldRio

Old news which is kite flying by the EPL.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638118#Comment_122638118

Possibly. Is there a mutual financial benefit in a merger however?

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638040#Comment_122638040

Time will tell, rugby finances are a mess, things once considered unlikely may now be a possibility.

icdg

This article from RTE gives a bit more credence, partially on the basis of an “exact words” approach to the URC statement mind.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/united-rugby-championship/2024/0919/1470930-talks-of-merger-show-just-how-urc-has-grown/

From an English point of view it’s the gap losing Wasps, Worcester, London Irish and (a couple of years back) London Welsh has done to the home gate.

You’d have to think the English would support putting the Champions Cup back to six pool games in such instance though - it’d be a far quicker fix. I guess the French and their 26 game regular season probably are the bigger opposition there though.

legendary.xix

Leo Cullen didn't seem too impressed by the journey to South Africa towards the end of last season. If the South African financial boost can be replaced by the English instead, logistically it is better.

10:10 is probably a better split so that the league isn't swamped by English clubs.

The English clubs would probably want 18 games plus 10 opponents. Irish, Welsh and Scottish then would have 18 games between each other and 10 one off games against English opponents. That will require 28 league rounds and possibly 3 rounds of playoffs.

The European Rugby Champions Cup will be completely squeezed out. It would only really be feasible as a one off final against the Top 14 winners as a curtain raiser for the next season.

tmc1963

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639016#Comment_122639016

Had to chuckle at this in the article:

"In Connacht’s case, that’s three more games against Leinster, Ulster and Munster, while Glasgow - for example - face Edinburgh, Benetton and Zebre for a second time."

It's a bit different with a more like-for-like comparison:

Zebre have to face Glasgow, Benneton and Edinburgh for a second time.

legendary.xix

If the Celtic Nations 10 clubs can merge a league with the English Premiership 10 clubs, there should be greater travelling support.

If Connacht and Munster are hosting 5 English opponents, there should be a decent travelling support. Likewise then for any of the Irish provinces going across to England, it is more accessible for travel.

I'd have sympathy for the South Africans and the Italians but if the Celtic Nations and England can agree a more logistically pleasing professional league, they are quite right to explore that possibility.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642447#Comment_122642447

But rugby can't afford to eat itself. We have few enough countries represented in top tier leagues. We have to look further or we will have more issues down the line. The sport needs to look wider or else it will struggle even more and we already have plenty of issues in top tier sides as it is.

Podge_irl

20 teams is too many for a league anyway and frankly, I just don't think the URC celtic teams would trust the Premiership ones.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642921#Comment_122642921

20 teams won't be too much if such a league is played over 28 regular league rounds and the Champions Cup is squeezed out.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643528#Comment_122643528

That sounds absolutely **** tbh.

Ben Bailey

There is also a possibility that some type of 'financial fair play' rules might have to underpin any British-Celtic league. This might prove a sticking point for some.

Any competition between unequally funded groupings will be reflected in final league standings, with top clubs winning more prize money, at least in the early seasons. How long before the Welsh & Scots clubs begin grumbling ?.

Each of the Unions involved plus Prem rugby might establish a working group to continue discussions but I can't see such a competition replacing the URC quite yet.

AbusesToilets

The biggest sticking point for a B&I league would be Union funded teams vs private funded ones. There's no easy way to square that circle and I wouldn't be in favor of compromising our system to appease the shower of Premiership team owners

icdg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643793#Comment_122643793

This will be a big one, I think. Although there have always been privately owned teams in the URC (Benetton Treviso the obvious example, but I think there have been private sector dalliances in Scotland and Wales as well). I think though it’s different with PRL where private ownership is the ethos and they’ve actively spoken against union ownership.

That said, they’ve always worked together in terms of ERC/EPCR , so perhaps not the obstacle at first glance?

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122644145#Comment_122644145

The English teams would want a salary cap, which would be a fair bit under what Leinster spend. The IRFU is not going to compromise on player development for the national team to appease the Premiership owners. At the same time, the English teams would be rightly indignant at having to compete on an wildly uneven playing field with the Irish teams.

The Premiership has been a disaster financially since its inception, teams have never been profitable. A unified TV rights deal for a Lions league would be a great start, but fundamentally there would need to be a massive restructuring to get on the path to sustainability.

If the Welsh bolt when their current deal is up, it could leave us in a tough spot. Hard to know how well the URC would survive sans them, despite how shite they've been lately.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643528#Comment_122643528

Absolutely zero chance any league of 28 regular rounds is sanctioned, that's madness.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122644438#Comment_122644438

It's delusional to think it would even be considered. Players unions would say no as well. Which puts a stop to it.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122644438#Comment_122644438

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122644450#Comment_122644450

The URC currently has 18 regular rounds and 3 knockout rounds. There are 8 weeks for the Champions Cup. That's 29 weeks already. In an environment where the Champions Cup is squeezed out, more weekends are freed up if that's the direction things moved.

Thrashssacre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646822#Comment_122646822

So just to be clear you want *checks notes* less games against worse and more financially dubious opponents? nah your alright.

Thrashssacre

This either works as a 14 team league with 2 Divisions (possibly 16 if the league wanted to take the cheetahs back and possibly a club from 3 growing nations Georgia, Spain, Portugal) or the irfu should tell the premiership where to go.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643583#Comment_122643583

Why though?

The Champions Cup is fairly shite ever since the English and French lost serious interest, it would be no real loss right now.

AbusesToilets

Champions Cup should move to a straight knock out comp, run after the leagues finish. Group stages are a waste of time these days from a rugby perspective, just serve as revenue generators now.

bilston

The Champions Cup is pretty much dead. The TV rights alone are evidence of that.

It could be salvaged with good governance and management (4 pools of 4 playing home and away followed by quarters, semis and final would work IMO), but there seems little appetite for that. It's eaten itself up just like Super rugby did.

Less is more!

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647276#Comment_122647276

It largely isn’t though - it’s still the competition that the biggest teams most want to win, and throws up the best games between the best teams.

It’s funny how the French teams have simultaneously lost interest and yet won the last four on the bounce.

The variety of playing different teams is a novelty in and of itself. This proposal is half baked, completely unattractive to the Irish sides and unpalatable for the players.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647541#Comment_122647541

it’s still the competition that the biggest teams most want to win

It's not really, the English and French clubs have prioritised their leagues over Europe for quite a while now.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647544#Comment_122647544

Some of the poorer teams have, without a doubt, but the biggest teams have tried to win it. There is nothing to support a statement that the likes of Toulouse, La Rochelle etc prioritising their league over Europe.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647544#Comment_122647544

With France requiring 26 rounds before playoffs, a straight knockout Champions Cup might be more preferable for them.

England with only 10 clubs currently aren't in a position to squeeze out European Rugby.

Fair points were made in some earlier posts about privately owned clubs in England in comparison with more union centric clubs in the URC.

A key move for England though might be trying to lure the 4 Welsh clubs. A 14 team Anglo Welsh Premiership might attract better broadcast revenue. Such a league over 26 rounds like France, would see them in a stronger position to possibly only require a knockout Champions Cup.

If both the French Top 14 and an Anglo Welsh Premiership 14 wanted knockout Champions Cup only, it could be hard to stop.

The URC then would be left with 12 teams. The URC could run over 22 league rounds though, an increase from the current 18 to 22, with all teams playing each other twice. The extra 4 rounds can take the place of the Champions Cup group stage being shelved. The URC playoffs would have to be top 6 like the Top 14.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647549#Comment_122647549

Sure there is. The English and French clubs have literally fought to ensure the format of the European competition doesn't interfere with their league season, it's exactly why we have this weird and whacky format we have now. Even ROG admitted when he went to La Rochelle the first thing he had to do was convince them that it was worth even bothering with the Heineken Cup.

It's not that they're not trying to win it, they are obviously trying to win it, but the pinnacle of their season is a league win. The European cup is the very-nice-to-have thing on the side.

The competition has absolutely fallen off a cliff. As I said, it's mostly shite now and would be no real loss to the rugby calendar.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647276#Comment_122647276

Yeah, they've only won the last 6 trophies in a row between them…

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648748#Comment_122648748

So what?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648763#Comment_122648763

So it's more accurate to claim that countries whose teams haven't won it in years (or the teams themselves) have lost interest.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648813#Comment_122648813

Not really, winning it isn't indicative of the French maintaining a high level of interest in this competition, literally every decision they have made has been the opposite of this for a number of years now.

Leinster haven't won it in 6 years yet their interest in the competition is sky high. There's no correlation between winning it and the importance of it to a club.

It's not that they don't care about it, it's just that it's obviously not the main focus of their season and as a result they have pushed for the format to be adjusted to allow them to focus better on their league.

I get that it means a lot to a section of Irish rugby supporters but in reality the competition they loved is long dead and the current incarnation of it is pure shite with a nonsense format, zero jeopardy with disinterested teams.

I maintain that it would be of little loss to rugby if it disappeared, which it will surely do eventually if it doesn't have a turnaround in fortunes. TV revenues are plummeting.

OldRio

The main reason in the failure of the European competition was the interference from the French and English. I think we all can agree in that.

Therefore why would we entertain any thought of letting the English anywhere near the URC.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648855#Comment_122648855

You’re free to keep pushing this narrative all you like but it isn’t the case. The largest French clubs, the ones who are contenders to win Europe, go all out to win it.

They select their strongest sides in all games and fight to the end to win it. They rotate much more heavily domestically.

Who are the disinterested teams?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648855#Comment_122648855

Bit of a joke to say that, tbh. How can you support a team whose last games against English and French opponents look like
14-53 L
40-17 W
19-47 L
24-48 L
31-15 W
14-37 L

and claim that they're the ones that don't take it seriously?

How are you going to demonstrate that Munster take the Champions' Cup more seriously than the URC? Or Connacht?

PMC83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648908#Comment_122648908

Castres for one, seldom send a full team even at the start of the pool matches. Stad Francais didn't send a first team over to Leinster last either. I think its fair to that the few French teams who have a history of winning it tend to be teams that will go all in on it.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649036#Comment_122649036

Right. The only French teams that take the competition seriously are Toulouse and La Rochelle.

But even then, I guarantee you if either had to choose between winning Europe or winning the Top14 it wouldn't take them very long to make up their mind.

It is hard to argue that the French (in general) really care about this competition when they along with the English have been directly responsible for gutting it as a competition.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649021#Comment_122649021

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Are you seriously asking me to demonstrate that Munster take Europe more seriously than the league?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649119#Comment_122649119

Yes. You can do the Bulls as well while you're at it. If the teams picked and the results obtained aren't indicative of how a team takes a competition seriously you presumably have some other formula.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649036#Comment_122649036

Nobody needs to take the ridiculous current version of the competition seriously until the knockout stages. Win one of your 4 matches and you'll probably qualify. Win two and you've a good chance of a home last 16 game. There's very little jeopardy.

thePigeon_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647563#Comment_122647563

The URC then would be left with 12 teams. The URC could run over 22 league rounds though, an increase from the current 18 to 22, with all teams playing each other twice.

This would mean all the European teams doing 4 week tours of SA unless they go down twice. Big enough ask logistically.

PMC83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649294#Comment_122649294

Nobody has to, but some certainly do and some certainly do not. What your saying is true, but thankfully the Irish teams still go all in on the pool stages. I think any club sending a weakened team because there's a good chance of getting out of the pool is taking a punt, it tells you pretty quickly where their priorities lie.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649390#Comment_122649390

I'd agree, but I'd flip the phrasing - often times it's clubs sending a weakened team because there's a chance of them getting relegated domestically, while still a chance of them getting out of the pool, but ya definitely indicative of where their priorities lie. (That's obviously something the URC teams don't have to contend with. But even then you had Bulls putting out a weakened team in Europe last season).

But even for, say, La Rochelle who do play their strongest team in Europe, I'd be hard pushed to be convinced they'd prefer to win Europe this season than the Bouclier.

Enzokk

You have to ask what problem they are trying to solve by proposing this league. If it is to help out the English teams as they are suffering financially then you have to ask whether they are able to sustain 10 clubs in whatever league they are playing in. We saw with the recent clubs going out of business there does not seem to be enough demand for 12 clubs. Now they have 10 clubs, but is even that too much? They may need to get used to the fact that they should only have 6-8 clubs that are actually financially viable and then move on from there.

Rugby has a financial problem, international unions all looking for outside investment to stay afloat and then clubs going bankrupt but player salaries going up? Seems like everyone needs to realise you cannot sustain high salaries as the revenue is not limitless. Add in the pain of compensation that will come for retired players and concussions, there will be pain ahead.

I could see a proposal work, but you cannot have 10 English teams when their level is not that high and some of their clubs are struggling financially. So less English teams and you cannot just get rid of the Italian teams unless you resign yourself to destroying the progress of Italian rugby in being competitive.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649459#Comment_122649459

The La Rochelle example is a bit driven by their own unique situation - they won back to back European titles and have lost a few Bouclier finals.

Other posters suggesting teams like Castres sending out weakened sides as indicative of overall French rugby attitude to it is meaningless. Castres would have no hope of winning the competition.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649685#Comment_122649685

But then by what measure can we say "it’s still the competition that the biggest teams most want to win"?

It is for Leinster. It's not for LAR. It's debatable for Toulouse (probably leaning towards the Top 14).

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649749#Comment_122649749

You have no idea what Toulouse’s priority is - and there is nothing to suggest they haven’t always gone all out to win the European Cup and will continue to do so. Same with LAR.

Splitting hairs or calling it debatable which competition teams most want to win is a far cry from the initial statements that it is a “shite tournament that no one cares about” that I originally took exception with.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649808#Comment_122649808

…is a far cry from the initial statements that it is a “shite tournament that no one cares about” that I originally took exception with.

Nobody made this statement, dude… sigh.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647276#Comment_122647276

Yeah, absolutely no one said anything like that.