For those of us that can't recharge an EV at home, what's the point of an EV?

Jon Doe

I've been running some numbers and it seems that driving an EV in Ireland based of public chargers only isn't that much cheaper… Combine that with range anxiety and 'refuel' time and I don't see the appeal… What am I missing?

https://esb.ie/what-we-do/ecars
0.47 €/kWh

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Nissan/113234/Nissan-Leaf-2-40kWh.html
17 kWh / 100 km

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Ireland/gasoline_prices/
1.71 € / L

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Nissan/122699/Nissan-Micra-K14-I-GT-92.html
5.4 L / 100 km

(1.71 * € * 5.4 * L) / (1 * L * 100 * km) ? (0.47 * € * 17 kWh) / (1 * kWh * 100 * km)

(1.71 * € * 5.4 * L) / (1 * L * 100 * km) ? (0.47 * € * 17 kWh) / (1 * kWh * 100 * km)


9.234 * € * L / (100 * L * km) ? 7.99 * € * kWh / (100 * kWh * km)


9.234€ / 100km > 7.99€ / 100km

You save 1.25€ for your hassle… :(

Buddy Bubs

I love EVs, have 2 of them now and never going back

However, you are correct. You're not missing anything. They're not worth it without your own charger

Zurbaran

Yeah I wouldn't recommend one to anyone that doesn't have off street parking. Would be a major inconvenience and more expensive because of that inconvenience.

kabakuyu

You need home charger,oh has ev 6 weeks,saved alot on fuel,approx 10e to fill battery,gives 330km range,large ev.

Jon Doe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678573#Comment_122678573

That's just over 3€ / 100km! That's very good! I take it you don't live in the city center?

65535

For me it's the low component count - I don't have to look at the road under the car every morning to see if I have another oil leak or listen out for weird engine noises.

The service interval is fabulous as well - minor things like extended brake pads due to the motor slowing the car down depening on your regenerative braking choice, quieter on the road and instant torque.

Is there a way to bring a charging cable over to the car at night ?

Flinty997

EV is easier to drive, especially in traffic and around cities, faster, cleaner, less complicated to fix, quieter. No need to go to petrol station. There are disadvantages also.

But if your main goal is to save money on fuel then not having home charging makes that pointless.

But fuel economy is not everyone's primary reason for choosing a car.

yermanthere

The only way public charging would work is if there's multiple " plugs" within a 10 minute walk of your home. Or you have guaranteed charging at work, but what about holidays? Anything else is bonkers.

No cost saving and hassle.

Buy a hybrid.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678744#Comment_122678744

plug in hybrid would be completely pointless if it can’t be plugged in.

I had to do a rare fuel refill in our other car this week. God I hate smelly fuel stations.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678744#Comment_122678744

What about holidays?

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678744#Comment_122678744

I charge both EVs in work all the time (once a week each car) and don't have a home charger.

On holidays, I am either away and car is at home or I am away in the car in which case I am public charging anyway

ELM327

DONT DO IT.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678634#Comment_122678634

How is an ev easier to drive than an ice car ? If you compare a basic spec manual ice with an average ev then I can see why but not if you compare cost with cost.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122678579#Comment_122678579

Located in suburban area,off street parking.You need home charging,I wouldn't consider an ev without home charging.

yermanthere

I never said plug in hybrid. Because it needs a plug. Just a regular hybrid/ hev/ whatever they are calling it. But ok, object to something I never said .

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058371665/for-those-of-us-that-cant-recharge-an-ev-at-home-whats-the-point-of-an-ev

Its 1.48 a litre, if you subtract the savings from the fuel cost, if a petrol station was selling fuel for that price imagine the queues, another point is the short journeys will not return 5.4l/100km, cold engine etc. Urban is around 6.7l/100km using that its a saving of 3.46 or 1.20 a litre.

I have a phev, I would charge out and about, but only if I am at a place where there is a charger, the hassle for me is about 30 seconds, boot, charger, plug in and swipe.

I would not like to be depending on public charging.

liamog

You get a lot of people who have never tried operating an EV without home charging who well tell you how they wouldn't consider it, and that it doesn't work.

The reality is much more nuanced, OP is somewhat correct the per km operating cost isn't there when relying on public charging, but like most people my motoring purchases are not purely economic decisions on the minimal costs for me to get from a to b.

We're at a point in the EV transition where the upfront purchase premium has disappeared when you compare similar specs and capabilities, this means that a given individual is much less likely to need a per km saving to justify their purchase on total cost of operation grounds.

That leaves the two major criticisms as range anxiety and charging time. With the massive improvements to Irish charging networks over the last 18 months, and the battery sizes of current models I think that range anxiety is like a scary monster under the bed, it's an issue that lives in your mind until you start driving a recent EV at which point you realise it's massively overblown and based on people's experience of cars in 2016 and the dismal charging networks of that time.

Charging time when relying on public charging is the place where you may need to make some adaptations to match your new car purchase. Instead of driving to a petrol station and filling up your car every other week, you are going to plug in the car whilst doing other stuff. I lived in an apartment in Knocklyon I'd take the car down to Supervalu and plug it into the DC charger whilst doing my shopping. That would generally do me for the week of travel. At other points during the week I'd plug into AC chargers at destinations. Often this would be enough to make the supermarket charge redundant but wasn't critical to my week.

The main things a person should consider before operating an EV without home charging is the local charging situation, there's a huge difference between living in South Dublin where there's multiple options for DC charging and living in the middle of nowhere where there's no chargers, though it's far more likely for property in the middle of nowhere to have off street charging access.

To OP, buy the car you want to drive at a price you are willing to pay, don't worry too much about choice of drivetrain and be wary of the people without experience telling you what does and doesn't work. It's ok if don't want to move to an EV today, charger availability is getting better all the time, car charging capabilities and battery sizes improve every year. You'll only be forced to buy a new non-combustion engine car starting in 11 years, decent quality used ones will still be on the road well into the 2050's. The situation by then will be very different.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679184#Comment_122679184

Instant response, instant high torque, one gear (mostly), smooth as silk, one pedal driving. In traffic it's night and day. Automatic ICE isn't in the race. Getting out at junctions, gaps in traffic, or lanes on motorway is so easy.

I still like driving a manual, but only on a empty twisty road. In traffic it's a real pita.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679125#Comment_122679125

I could see how someone could make an EV work if you don't have a home charger. But it will depend on your local infrastructure. These a decent amount of chargers near me.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680823#Comment_122680823

I take your point. I would like the sharp instant power for sure. It's a great safety feature.

however, I still think that if you compare a reasonable spec and power ice with a similar cost bev then its not such a severe comparison.

As an example my previous car, 192 kodiaq style awd 190bhp auto was very comfortable, well specced and never held me back at roundabouts. To get the same spec on a bev and avail of extra performance costs more I would think.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680873#Comment_122680873

Cost is an entirely different subject. You asked me how is it easier. It just is.

Fundamentally an electric motor has utterly different way of working. No ICE can compete with it.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680829#Comment_122680829

Yeah it could be done alright. There's a good few chargers near enough to me too including the 2 ionity sites in kill plus a few decent apple greens. There's probably a load more around I don't know about.

I still wouldn't recommend it, you won't save money so you'd really want to be environmentally conscious or really enjoy the drive of an EV, both of which could very well be true

Flinty997

For me the convenience of home charging is a major part of it. Not so much the cost of fuel. That's just a bonus. Also the pre heating.

If I had no home charging, but was doing a lot of mileage I wouldn't get an EV. If it's was mainly local then maybe.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680933#Comment_122680933

Cost is always important if you consider a fair logical comparison.

However, throwing cost aside then I'll accept that an EV6 for example is easier to drive than a Dacia Sandaro but I'd still rather be in an ice Porsche. Also, no range anxiety, so therefore even more pleasant in the ice.

Cilar

No point if you cannot charge at home. We specifically moved house 7 years ago as old one was a townhouse, anticipating the need for a driveway

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122681156#Comment_122681156

You specifically asked about how its is easier. Cost is not factor in why its easier to use. It like a feather is never going to be a better hammer, no matter how much more is spent on the feather. I'm not throwing cost aside. Its just irrelevant to that discussion.

You conflated that with performance. I wasn't talking about performance. Just ease of use. You also conflated that with bang for buck, and now personal preference and range anxiety. I don't really have range issues for my city driving.

I'd love a Porsche but not for driving in heavy stop city traffic. I'm also not going to squeeze a family of 5 into a Porsche for a family holiday. I'd love one for weekend trips, or simply a weekend drive. Horses for courses. If someone is happy with a Dacia Sandero, then thats the right choice for them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oo_tALmc0QI

If you don't want a EV don't buy one. Its that simple.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122681413#Comment_122681413

You stated that EV cars are easier to drive than ICE cars. You have not proven that in any way. It's just a broad and misleading statement. A lot of ICE are very easy to drive, many are easier to drive than EV.

Cost is a factor in every purchase of any product and by connection any recommendation or review. It does not suit your arguments to acknowledge that so you start mentioning hammers and feathers.

I like EVs and may still buy an EV next time when I replace the current car but I'll be looking at the facts before making that decision. EV advocates constantly air dropping additional reasons to buy EVs that don't stand up won't change that anymore than anti-EVs over-stating the downsides.

Getting back to the OPs original point about needing a charger at home. I think anyone that would do that unless they have some consistent reliable scenario at work would seriously regret that decision. Effectively there are hundreds of thousands of people who will never be realistically able to run an EV because they live in apartments, terraces or other areas where they cannot link to a charger unless they go to a public facility. That's not going to change this year, next year or anytime soon. I'd advise the OP to think really carefully about where they might regularly charge any EV they buy and will that scenario be permanent into the future. Definitely don't listen to any arguments about EVs that just glorify them for the sake of it.

Ir3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058371665/for-those-of-us-that-cant-recharge-an-ev-at-home-whats-the-point-of-an-ev

Think I'll head off to the motors forum and start a thread saying " I dont need the range of a Diesel so whats the point of one?"🙄 Honestly baffles me that people need this explained to them.. Different fuels suit different peoples needs and you should be able to figure out which one suits you best, if someone buys an EV and it doesnt work for them well then that just means that individual person wasnt able to work that out, doesnt mean theres no point to them.

Diesels for example are awful in my opinion but I get that for some people they are great and I wouldnt judge someone for that choice but in this country people are so brain washed they cant see that EV's are a great option for certain people. Its a really stupid mentality.

I ran a Diesel for 7 years before buying an EV and it was a terrible choice as our useage case as a family does not suit this type of car so it blew 2 turbos in that time, I dont blame BMW for that, I blame myself for running a Diesel when I shouldnt have.

Also just to state the obvious, EV's are also a really poor choice for some people, like those without a home charger.

Flinty997

I gave you a technical explanation why. You either understand that or you don't.

If cost is the big issue why you taking about Porsches, or new car for that matter.

Most of those with an EV on this thread have said they wouldn't get one without home charging. Not entirely sure how that's glorifying anything.

Flinty997

Found this stat.. From the US

"…survey queried 500 EV drivers in the United States, revealing a key finding: While 86.0% of EV drivers now have access to a home charger, 59.6% still use public chargers weekly…"

Also the uk

"...The findings reveal that 84% of EV drivers have access to a charging point at home (a figure which has remained relatively constant since 2019). The vast majority (90%) of EV drivers use the UK's public charging network on a regular basis, with most utilising it more or less monthly..."

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682535#Comment_122682535

What EV were you daily driving when you didn't have access to home charging? Your experience can vary greatly depending on the car and where you live so it would be good to dig into the details that have led to you providing such strongly worded advice to OP.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682535#Comment_122682535

No idea why you are so fanatical about cost. If cost is such a big decision of your purchase, buy a cheaper car.

Fuel choice is irrelevant. Buy what suits you.

EV is no “easier” to drive than any other car, in the same way an ice is no “easier” to drive than an EV as you state. But an EV is most definitely a more enjoyable driving normal circumstances.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682657#Comment_122682657

Monthly, yes I'd use public chargers. AC chargers really, top up when parking anyway. But I would never ever consider an EV without home charging.

I converted my Dad to the EV life last year and he got a 231 MG5. He does a fair few km per year, he's retired but runs a couple of societies/clubs etc and travels all across the country following the county GAA. He still hasn't even downloaded the ecars app. AFAIK he has only public charged once, at a circle k (so, tap contactless debit card), just to check it works! 25-30k per year, all on home charging.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682695#Comment_122682695

Which is easier to drive manual or automatic. If you giving it to someone with difficulty driving.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682862#Comment_122682862

Both similar IMO.
There’s pros and cons to both.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122677749#Comment_122677749

Thanks for the honest post.

I've been saying this for years and often met with hostility from EVs owners (mostly online because in my family,work,friends,neighbours,friends of friends group of say 200 people I only know one person who has a BEV)

I'm not a fan of EVs in general,aside from crazy money cars like the Etron or some of the super cars they all look horrible to me.The Fiat 500 and MINI are nice enough as they're the same to look at as the ICE versions,some of the BMW saloons aswell but again nothing special.When you consider the range and the price tag of the MINI for example it's a bit of a joke.

Anyway,that's my opinion and it's subjective so have no problem with people disagreeing with that.

What can't be denied at this point in time is that for the about 2 million people in this country,myself included who dont have dedicated off street parking an EV makes no sense.

This is where ideology and reality meet.

quokula

So in the original comparison, it's comparing a Nissan Leaf, which is a decently sized C-Segment family car, with a Nissan Micra, which is a very small B-Segment supermini. And even then the Leaf still comes off cheaper. And the Leaf is just about the most technically outdated EV on the road so it isn't as efficient as many rivals. Take something a little closer in size to the Micra (though there are far too few properly small EVs), like an electric Mini or Corsa, and you increase the efficiency and knock another 20% or so off the charging costs.

I have home charging in a two EV household would never go back to an ICE if you paid me considering the far inferior and less refined driving experience, the noise, the increased unreliability and servicing requirements, the toxic fumes my children are forced to breathe in, and the inconvenience of regular trips to queue up at petrol pumps.

All that said though, I've only had to publicly charge maybe 5 times in 4 years, it was always painless but having to go do it every few days would be pretty frustrating so I'm not sure what I'd do if in that position to be honest.

From a government planning perspective they should make more cheaper, slower charging available in parking spaces - i.e. you may not have a dedicated driveway but you obviously have somewhere to park nearby and there's no reason you shouldn't be given the option to charge there. I've seen this in some other countries where whole roads have a small charging post at every single space.

oinkely

A few observations -

If you don't have home charging then don't buy an EV for cost savings - the main saving day to day comes from having cheap electricity (night rate) to run the car. That's coming from someone who has had EVs in the house for 8 years or so and who's main considerations when buying a car is cost to run and within my cash budget. I, rightly or wrongly, ignore depreciation and assume that the car will be effectively worthless at the end of my ownership and anything above that is a bonus. The EVs were cheaper to run by along shot than our previous ICE vehicles.

There are lots of other reasons to buy an EV though - comfort, ease of driving, instant acceleration, all the tech in most models.

Ease of driving - you can't compare a new model EV with a manual petrol or diesel - the EV wins hands down every time for ease of driving. Especially if it has active cruise and lane assist etc. Changing gears is a chore, watching that you are not speeding is a chore, having to actually steer is also a chore. I try and commute in our 2020 leaf if at all possible because all the driver aids makes it a much less onerous task. If my wife wants to use it then the next pick is the bicycle, then our electric Czero with no driver aids and last option is a 2011 diesel Renault trafic which is just horrible for an hour in stop start traffic on the N11.

So yeah, IMO there is no comparison in ease of driving. Now if you were to compare the EV to a modern auto ICE with all the same driver aids then the difference would be vastly reduced. But you woudl still have to visit a petrol station which is a horrible experience - especially if it's diesel you are buying!

Red Silurian

Range anxiety and refueling time are largely a thing of the past because batteries are bigger and can charge faster than they could in years gone by, the cost of cars with these features has also significantly come down. A better comparison to the Leaf would be the pulsar, would be less fuel efficient than a micra. But otherwise you have a valid point on price.

A better rough estimate a 3:1 ratio of electricity to liquid fuel because per 100km the average car will consume 15-18kWh of electricity or 5-6L of liquid fuel.

The biggest charging network in the country is ESB by a very large margin and with a €5 subscription they charge 47c, 52c and 54c/kWh for AC, DC and HPC respectively which works out at €1.41, €1.56 and €1.62 per Liter. Is it worth changing from ICE to EV at those prices? Probably not, would be my answer in fairness

I remember as well when the gas prices went sky high a few years ago after Russia invaded Ukraine and all the chargepoint operators were very quick to increase their prices. ESB alone saw 2 increases in the space of 9 months which doubled the price paid by motorists. By comparison the cost of liquid fuel increased by about 30% and started falling shortly after that.

Today liquid fuels are roughly where they were before the invasion and ESB are still about 50% higher than they were at that time. With carry on like that it's no real surprise that EVs have depreciated so badly and sales have fallen off a cliff

Ionity have a plan that allows you to charge for 42c/kWh which is equivalent to €1.26/L for a €12/mo subscription. This is probably the best price you could achieve without home charging but Ionity stations are few and far between so unless you live near one there isn't much use in it for a large swathe of the population. Also nothing to stop them jacking the price up considerably tomorrow if they want to

While cost is an issue just remember that every km driven in an EV is carbon free at the point of use. Much like people who shop in those eco shops I'm sure there is a market of people who will be happy to pay the extra to do their bit for the environment

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682695#Comment_122682695

We agree on some things it seems.

I'm not fanatical about cost. Current car cost 62k new and when I change it will be for one slightly more than that, most likely not a cheaper car as i want a certain spec. Thats a lot of money for some and peanuts for others.

However whether you spend 6k or 60k or 160k then cost is a factor or I suppose more clearly what you are getting for that cost.

Like a lot of buyers I'll be comparing what's on offer ICE, PHEV, BEV. Rash statements made earlier like EVs are easier to drive simply detract from logical discussion on the benefits of EV, which are many.

Fuel choice is irrelevant but the majority of car buyers don't buy what suits them. They buy what suits them within what they can afford so cost is always a factor.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682882#Comment_122682882

If they are similar why can you drive an automatic on the manual license but you can't drive a manual on a automatic license.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682922#Comment_122682922

If someone keeps meeting hostility perhaps it's because they keep asking questions but refusing to listen to the answer.

Definitely don't get an EV. Then there's no need to ask questions.

If cost and range is all important get a cheap diesel. No hybrid or petrol is going to beat diesel for range. There's far more used diesels around due to motor tax charges in 2008.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683391#Comment_122683391

You’ll have to talk to the RSA about that 🤷

You asked me for my opinion. I gave that.

Buffman

OP, you're not missing anything, without access to 'cheap/free' charging their is no financial incentive. You're actually being a bit 'generous' in those calculations using the Ecars subscription rate of 0.47€/kWh without factoring in the €57.48 annual subscription charge. Back in my PHEV days it was cheaper (and still is) to run on petrol than the cheapest non-subscription public rate of 0.52€/kWh.

I don't think there are many if any on this forum who will recommend to anyone to get one to save money on fuel if they are 100% relying on paid public charging, because they won't with the current high prices.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683455#Comment_122683455

Hey,I'm all for getting a car that you want/like/can afford/ suits your driving etc.

It becomes a problem when it's decided you can only have an EV.Only EVs to be sold from 2030,put back to 2035 and will be put back again or abandoned altogether.

I don't spend a lot of time on these threads as it's not of great interest to me but I was making the same points years ago.

I couldn't understand how some people couldn't see the same issues.I guess now that they're coming to pass it's more obvious.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683317#Comment_122683317

Range anxiety is a mindset that isn't going to be easy to change. People are locked into their habits and their opinions.

MojoMaker

Depends what you're moving from. For me the break-even cost per kwh was 1 euro.

Flinty997

The question should you get an EV without a home charger is quite subjective. Depends not simply on the practical side but also does the person like change, do they just like manuals. Do they like technology. It's not simply the price of fuel.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683509#Comment_122683509

How would you suggest we change the mindset? There are more chargers in Ireland now than there has ever been. Driving the motorway network, with the exception of the M1, nearly every petrol station has EV chargers as well

Cuddlesworth

I'd love a entire thread dedicated to Gumbo explaining why he thinks manuals are harder to drive then automatics.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684054#Comment_122684054

Where did I say that?