Devaluation, Work Overload and Pressure

MinistryOfMagic

Hello all,

It's been 5 months since I started working at a county council. The council's opportunities and support are invaluable... and I'm really happy to be a part of that organization. I also love my department and my team. My seniors are also really supportive and understanding, even incredibly encouraging people.

However, I am having some issues with my line manager. He said that I should stop bringing innovative ideas to the office, that I am just a CO and that I should not share my ideas in meetings. He told me to share my ideas with him and that he would forward them to the team if he deemed them appropriate. On the other hand, He expects me to do the same things over and over again in different formats in the same day and to do it in a very limited time. In just one day, I prepared six different format files with the same theme and none of them were used. Will not be used. He doesn't have clear and concise assignments, so I have to guess most of the time, and if I'm wrong in my guess, he speaks in a tone of great disappointment and accusation, as if humiliating me in front of the whole office.

Finally, with the support of my seniors and the council, I was provided with a scholarship for a course. However, the course guide was not released until the last week of September. The timetable was released on the first day of the course. I only had a guide for 2023 and my seniors had approved that I would be on the course in-person one day a week. The remaining two days of the course are online. So, only one day per month is in person - two days online.

My line manager told me that I had to be in the office on online days and that I had to go back to work as soon as the course was over, which the course is 9-4pm and is quite intense. Moreover, there is flexi time, so I think it is my natural right to want to digest what I have learned at the end of the course and leave the office.

The first module of the course is almost over and I can clearly say that I feel like I'm committing a crime because of the pressure and stress he puts on me. And as if that wasn't enough, he also sends me emails for no apparent reason, saying things like "Thank you for your patience, you're doing a great job." Which one? Angry or happy or what? I feel battered, helpless, and alone. Moreover, I am on probation and I really don't know how much longer I can stand this. What I learned in the course is not just personal, but also information that I will carry to the organization, and since it is causing so much trouble, I wish they hadn't approved it. I even had to apologize for that.
My head aches, my chest feels tight, I am not in a good financial position and I am under constant pressure. However, I love the organization I work for and I really want to advance my career there. But I can't stand that person anymore physically. He said he didn't want me to talk to my seniors without him knowing. Everyone I ask says that if I go to HR they will fire me.

I just want to work, produce, and contribute to my organization along with this amazing team I have. But I can't. I feel worthless and inferior regularly throughout the day. When I get home I get emails saying, "You worked hard today, thanks for your patience. Keep up the good work."

Would you have any suggestions for me?

Mrs OBumble

You're a CO.

Keep your mouth shut and fit in. Stop overthinking stuff.

Ninthlife

Hi OP..well done on getting the position, embracing it and taking on the additional scholarship, it will stand to you in the future.

Couple of things, your line manager is just one step above you, you said your seniors which will be his seniors are supportive, remember that. He doesnt want you speaking to them as it will show up his managememt style which Im sure most are aware of already.

Flexi is flexi and if core hours are the normal 10 til 4 you are within your rights to finish at 4.

You will NOT be fired for approaching HR. Whoever told you that is an idiot.

Reading work emails after youve finished is not a good habit. You have a right to switch off.

You come across as pretty capable person so you could start by discussing the issues directly with your line manager if not skip over him and speak to his manager.

Look after yourself and try unwind and get out of the cycle of building up the anxiety

Ninthlife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686701#Comment_122686701

Terrible advice and attitude

the14thwarrior

you are over thinking I believe

if a manager sends you an email like this, he is doing so for a few reasons, and none of them really mean too much at the end of the day to you, or your work. IN fact, if a manger sends you emails to say well done, you save them in a separate folder so that when something comes up like a review, you say oh, my manager thinks I'm doing a great job.

using flexi is a benefit, which you could use if it suits you. Going back to work after studying / training / on line course is quite normal for some county councils its the overall policy. If the course finished at 2 you might see that it would make a difference.

the manager obviously runs a tight ship. But in fairness, if you have ideas and contributions, you should respect in most cases, the chain of command that exists in these cultures. You should be able to see that; there is a knack to suggestions, and a knack to discussing first with your manager. Until you are a manager, you may not fully realise that. And its not always a negative thing.

with this type of manager, you should explore, read and study the many books that are out there in dealing with these personalities. You should learn how to ask and receive clear instructions, with p**ssing him off, to respond to emails in kind that demonstrate you have heard, etc. Do the grunt work and use this a learning experience, because you will need his reference at some point.

You have only been there five months, so you've a way to go. Play the game, get your studies and qualifications in, and make good friends in other departments, and be that person that looks and sounds like they are going places. You can only do that if you manage to out smart your manager.

if a manager is smart enough to send meaningless emails outlining how happy he is with your work, and all that nonsense, he has played this game many times.

Ezeoul

He told me to share my ideas with him and that he would forward them to the team if he deemed them appropriate.

Do not do this. Any manager who would tell you do to that, wants to take your ideas, present them as his own, and also take the credit for them.

Also ignore anyone who would imply that because you are a CO you should "keep your mouth shut and fit in".

They obviously need some updated people skills training, and some "Dignity in the Workplace" training wouldn't hurt.

griffin100

Ideally you don’t rock the boat if you’re on probation, especially if the sign off on your probation sits with your current line manger. No matter how good you are if you start to appear like a troublemaker during the probationary period chances are this could impact on your permanency.

That said asking a very junior person with 5 months experience of the organisation not to contribute to some areas in meetings wouldn’t be unusual, you might think your ideas are great, but they may not be suitable for the organisation. That said your line manager should be explaining this to you and not trying to stifle you. It’s a sign of insecurity on his behalf, as is a lot of his behaviour.

On the plus side the fact that the organisation is happy to invest in your development already is a good sign of a progressive set up. Don’t let your managers behaviour get to you. Document the behaviour and once you’ve been made permanent then bring it to the attention of your manager for addressing informally or take it further with HR if you have to. It’s much harder than it sounds I know but don’t let one person ruin what could be a good career.

MinistryOfMagic

Thank you all so much for your responses.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686701#Comment_122686701

I would prefer to be part of a team and have a positive atmosphere that benefits the team and the organization we work in. And of course, the results of this would also be reflected positively in the regional community in which we work.

But I see you are overlooking the fact that the world is changing and we are getting ready to enter 2025. With employees wanting to maintain this ridiculous "hierarchy", there can never be innovation in the public sector, no matter how much the Irish government invests in innovation.

According to what my line manager told me, he also wanted to take a course in the past, but his department did not approve. Also, my seniors granted my blendid working in my second month, which my line manager clearly stated that this was also an unusual approach.

He said that the opportunities provided to me were many, that he had not been asked for the course I had started at the moment, and that for this reason, the course days would have to be deducted from my annual leave, but that he would negotiate this with me… :)

He also called me in the middle of class on two of my course days.

And no matter how successful I am, he is never happy and no matter how many people around him, he never hesitates to humiliate me.

And all of this is verbal. He emails me at midnight or around 4 in the morning and says, "You did a great job today, thank you for your patience."

My mind is being played with, plain and simple. I feel like I'm paying the price for everything that went wrong in his personal life.

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687610#Comment_122687610

Were the timings of his emails an exaggeration?

If not that's wildly inappropriate.

MinistryOfMagic

I'm not really exaggerating, I'm just saying this because it's so specific. :)

the14thwarrior

You are not obliged to answer any emails after work. the fact they come in at that time doesn't mean too much. He is probably using a timer for whatever reason. it happened to me with one manager, and when I said it to him, he went on a bit of rant saying his work schedule is his business, and he never expects employees to answer emails at that time……. and if you think so….. and basically it gave him an excuse to have a go at me.!! So i said no, I was just expressing a concern and apologised. (for doing nothing wrong). I later found out he did this a few times, to lots of colleagues. uses a timer on the system. looks like he is working late, crazy hours etc nonsense of course.

You are there five months, and not sure how you might define success, if you'll excuse me, i think you are overeaching in your definition of success. Perhaps you are fitting in and doing a good job;

and for the record, team work and hirearcy excuse spelling must work together and to assume otherwise is a bit silly. lots of successful and enterprising work going on in public service but someone needs to lead the team. lead and manage are not the same. But someone can also manage well…….. maybe not this guy but time will tell. You should hang in there, its so very early days

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687816#Comment_122687816

That's definitely a HR issue and they won't be impressed.

Ted222

welcome to the public sector. Dealing with people like this is part of the work experience.

Other opportunities will arise. You won’t be working with this person indefinitely. It’s an issue that perhaps should be endured rather than solved. You will encounter people you don’t necessarily like or respect over the course of your working life and the trick is to make the best of it rather than treating everything like a dealbreaker. Dig deep. You’re in the world of work now.

It sounds like you’re piddling this person off because you’re acting above your grade. Don’t take the bait. Keep going as you are and you’ll eventually find your best place. It’s good that you like the organisation as a whole.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688109#Comment_122688109

ItWith remote working it's much more common for people to send emails out of hours. HR aren't going to tell a manager that they can only sent emails during working hours.

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688359#Comment_122688359

HR in a County Council are certainly going to tell a Manager that they can't email people after midnight and at 4am to send one line creepy emails.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688109#Comment_122688109

He still should not approach HR until after probation. In fairness though once probation is done he can then stand up for himself.

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688371#Comment_122688371

Agreed, it'll be easier to deal with once you've passed probation.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688369#Comment_122688369

I have received emails from people at odd hours, but there is usually a disclaimer as part of the signature along the lines of …

"I am currently working from [location] so you may receive emails from me outside of normal working hours. Please don't feel obliged to reply outside of your working hours".  

If such a disclaimer is not included, it's poor etiquette, but I wouldn't make an issue of the delivery times of the emails.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688369#Comment_122688369

As I said, HR aren't to tell someone you can only email someone during work hours.

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688646#Comment_122688646

"the duty to respect another person’s right to disconnect (for example: by not routinely emailing or calling outside normal working hours)"

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/6b64a-tanaiste-signs-code-of-practice-on-right-to-disconnect/

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688809#Comment_122688809

The OP right to disconnecg is not being violated though. They don't have a work phone and there is no expectation that they need to reply outside of their normal working hours.

The Code of Practice needs employers and employees to work together to determine the appropriate working arrangements and policies. Because the Code is flexible, employees will have more options to work outside of traditional hours, which many people have availed of during the pandemic.

MinistryOfMagic

At this stage, email sending and hours are just a drop in the bucket...

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687610#Comment_122687610

If an organisation wants innovation, they aren't going to hire a Clerical Officer to think it up!

You may see hierarchy as "ridiculous" but every organisation in the world has more senior people who have experience, authority, responsibility, sometimes even individual legal accountability. That's why others get more money than you (and yes, the starting CO rate is ridiculous, hence your financial state). Learn to work with the structures you are in, watch for a good while to see what suggestions would work actually, and work out how to sell them to people in authority. Blathering things out at general meetings is rarely successful.

Your situation is unusual (I'm guessing a graduate programme) to have "seniors" who can approve a course that takes substantial working-hours without your line manager being consulted, much less approving. If you were allocated to the manager to enable him to get something, and you went around him to get on the course, then he has good reason to be annoyed.

Humans have two eyes, two ears and one mouth: this is good indication of the time you should spend talking vs looking, listening and learning. Until you pass probation, keep your head down, and prove that you can do the job.

I say that as a person who's done a number of temping contracts well "below" my skill levels. Managers didn't hire an admin person to tell them they were doing stuff wrong, they hired someone to do specific tasks. Sometimes I could see ways that would make things faster. Sometimes I was right, but sometimes there stuff I didn't know and I was wrong. Bottom line, as a "clerk" you do what you're told.

The time your manager sends emails is irrelevant. For all you know their job could include after hours call outs: many CC jobs do things that need non-standards hours .

And I think the advice to not approach HR is sound: it's probably some from someone who sees how you are being viewed in the organisation. HR are NOT your friend: their job is to minimise the company's legal exposure.

I'd suggest talking to other people in your own team, for suggestions on how you can work more effectively with the manager.

MinistryOfMagic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689207#Comment_122689207

So, something outside and above the role description should not be asked of someone who is a CO, am I understanding correctly?

I also value my organization very much and am very happy with the opportunities it provides me. The problem here is not the organization.

Innovation has no degree, Welcome to 2024.

NiceFella

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689914#Comment_122689914

OP your line manager might not be the best manager, but you're coming across as more than a little entitled. This comment "innovation has no degree, welcome to 2024". Lol You're not even probation yet!

Do you honestly think these people who probably worked there years haven't had some of the ideas you thought up at the top of your head?? I've met plenty of people in jobs that thought they had great ideas which were completely devoid of understanding basics of the actual job.

The smart thing to do here is get past probation and then try work on getting recognition from higher ups. Do not go to HR if you want to stay in the job.

I understand that many new employees are eager to get recognition but sometimes the job environment isn't too kind to people who are looking for a golden star. You can decide yourself if it's appropriate for you, but making an impact on many cases requires a bit of social savvyness.

And just to note, seniors in many jobs are often good to talk to, but if they're managing you directly they might behave differently.

My advice is keep your head down and pass probation, rome wasn't built in a day.

MinistryOfMagic

Thank you for your suggestions.

And yes, thanks to the ideas I put forward and thanks to our team effort, we have resolved a very critical issue.

I have no claim or desire to be a star, to be in the spotlight, etc. However, a true leader evaluates and appreciates teammates based on their contributions, not their "degrees" As a team, we are doing really successful work. And if hierarchy enters into this team awareness - for no reason at all - then our problem-solving skills are restricted. I have not heard any complaints from anyone on the team about me not being a good fit for the team, standing out, etc. On the contrary, they always and openly appreciated this in every meeting and emphasized our harmony as a team.

Being on probation does not mean that my ideas will not contribute to the team and the organization I work for. At the end of the day, what matters is the team's goals, the interests of our department, and how well we serve the community we serve.

Hierarchy and grades can wait in the corner. As a team, we have a lot to contribute to ourselves, our organization, and our community. And if we can do this with the awareness of lifelong learning and purification of egos, we will only achieve success.

Thank you so much for your support and responses. Every comment on this topic was very enlightening and inspiring for me.

jackboy

Remember if team mates do not think you are a good fit or doing a good job then they don't need to complain. Simply, you will be out the door when probation is up.

You should be 100% focused on getting through probation. The other things you say are what matters actually do not until probation is over because unless that is successful you will be serving nobody, not the team and not the community.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686730#Comment_122686730

Ye because 5 months into the job making all sorts of suggestions on how the team can do better past your manager is going to be appreciated where exactly?

Yes it may come across as enthusiastic but equally will attract rolleyes. Like nobody ever thought of how we can do better, thank god we got the newbie to tell us.

It's perfectly normal to share ideas with manager first. If manager is any good at all they will not 'steal' your ideas. Seriously.
In any case to some degree it is your job to make your manager look good. Like they make their manager look good etc. You make your manager look good happy manager. You go persistently surprise your manager in front of others maybe superiors or peers not a happy manager.

The reality is 5 months in you're still in learning the lie of the land territory. An important skill is to read situations and characters and not to be 'Miss, Miss, Miss' like you're still in school or something. Workplace doesnt work like that because line of command doesnt work like that.

NiceFella

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122690621#Comment_122690621

"A true leader appreciates team mates based on their contributions, not degrees"

You don't get to decide who manages you OP or how they operate. Managers are humans too, they aren't perfect and in many instances very very far from it. A big part of every job is having the savvyness to negotiate people you find difficult. Your not in the job 6 months, and you probably don't know some of the finer parts of the job so rushing to do good can often backfire.

If you like this job as much as you say you do, keep your head down and get past your review period. Then you can go about trying to get up the ladder. I will add that many who've commented here, sound like they've never worked in the CS. It's a completely different animal than a private company. If you want recognition faster then I suggest going working for a private company as that dynamic might suit you better.

spuddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686800#Comment_122686800

"…if a manager is smart enough to send meaningless emails outlining how happy he is with your work, and all that nonsense, he has played this game many times."

This x1000. He'll have a long list of emails showing how supportive he was of you, if you escalate to HR. It's not fair, but that's the reality of the situation.

As others have said, in any job (public or private), you're going to have managers you don't see eye to eye with from time to time. You have 3 choices:

1. Accept it, play the game too. Once you've got your probation done and dusted, start looking for a new job/boss in the council. This may take some time, but ultimately your boss may see it's in his interest too to move you on.
2. Quit, take the lesson on the chin. Find somewhere you feel better valued
3. Confront him, call out his behaviour. This is the riskier option. He'll either respect you for it, or it'll be the end of your relationship, and you'll more than likely be forced to opt for option 2.

Before you do any of the above, take a long hard look in the mirror. Is there anything that you're doing that may be unintentionally getting his back up? You mentioned you had direct contact with his superiors for instance. Whenever I spoke to my manager's manager, I always told my manager what happened, so they were fully in the loop. That was me showing respect for my manager, it helped built trust, and it was always reciprocated in kind.

Good luck!

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122690621#Comment_122690621

Thanks OP, this bit really says it all.

Hierarchy and grades can wait in the corner. As a team, we have a lot to contribute to ourselves, our organization, and our community. And if we can do this with the awareness of lifelong learning and purification of egos, we will only achieve success.

I wish you well in your career, and suspect you will be a better fit in a private sector organisation where there are fewer rules to follow.

(Contributing to ourselves … Purification of egos 😀😁😂 )

That said, I think the whole thread is probably a windup: I've never met anyone quite so passionate about the services county councils provide: sewerage, roads, fire-fighting, environmental protection, urban planning, libraries, social housing etc are all really important. But they don't inspire "what a great organisation, we've got so much to contribute". (Social housing might. But even five months doing it would be enough to bring an idealist sharply down to earth!)

the14thwarrior

Ironically those in public service, and there are many many great workers and true "civil servants" manage to play the game and get good things done. Whilst working in a good team, mentoring others, watching others lead and go onwards and upwards, and to be honest, we need those people.

after five months if you can't see that vision, those people, those services, respect management, acknowledge experience and learn, you'll end up stupid like the rest of them.

dennyk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688809#Comment_122688809

Email is inherently an asynchronous form of communication; it matters not one single bit what time an email was sent if you aren't reading it until your normal working hours the next working day. Maybe the manager is a workaholic, or is a chancer trying to look like a workaholic by sending overnight emails on a timer, or maybe they're just an absent-minded insomniac who woke up at 2AM and realised they forgot to send an email that day, but either way it isn't the recipient's issue. The recipient has the ability to refrain from checking their work emails after hours, so they will see the message the next time they log in whether the manager sent it at 3AM or one minute before the worker's shift began.

Now, if the manager starts demanding (or there is an implied expectation) that a worker immediately responds to those emails at any hour of the day or night, that would be a clear violation of the right to disconnect. Doesn't sound like that's the case here, though.

ongarite

The OP sounds and reads like a LinkedIn lunatic post than a real person & not the way an Irish person would talk or interact IMO.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122697345#Comment_122697345

Agree. Thread gives chat GPT / troll vibes

nearby_cheetah

Are you Irish OP? There is something off about your attitude in an Irish workplace, especially an Irish public service workplace.

I agree with Mrs OBumble. For God's sake don't come into a new workplace spouting ideas and suggestions all over the place. Your wasting everyone's time and will earn the label as just a loud "upstart".

Be quiet and get on with your work.

PreCocious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686726#Comment_122686726

Without discussing the post in questions it should be noted that Flexi is a privilege and not a right. Managers can/will/should ask for people to work outside core hours in order to provide services within the organisations normal working hours.

I'm finding the term "my seniors" curious. I've come across it before but can't quite place it

Flinty997

Regardless of the origins of the OP posts.

They describe some very poor work culture in their organisation, verging on toxic. I certainly wouldn't be so closed off to a new persons new ideas, fresh experience might bring with them.

Certainly new guy wanting to change everything is very common, and isn't always appropriate, but still I wouldn't be shutting them down so hard.