Zoning Laws

User1111

This is a bit of a rant so forgive me if it's long-winded and feel free to tell me I'm stupid or whatever, this is just my opinion so take it lightly.

Considering that we are in the midst of a housing crisis, that young people are the ones who are disproportionately affected by this and that the big and obvious regulatory difference between the pre-crisis era and the crisis era is that someone decided to sign a piece of paper saying that for some reason you can only build houses where the government tells you to. If people want houses to be built in towns and cities they should make the land in towns and cities cheaper, and there are many options for how to do this (tax it, buy chunks and sell it back to first-time buyers, state/council-run construction), not ban it in the countryside.

The lack of backlash about this has made me really cynical and it's hard not to feel that the voting behaviour and attitudes of the older generation, while believing themselves to be in the right are ruining the lives of the youth and that the youth seem somehow oblivious to the fact that at the end of the day, Everything Is About Land. You can earn as much as you like, but if you don't have land to live on you have nothing. The older generation already own the houses they live and so are enriching themselves immensely of the work of the new generation. Not that I resent the older generation, at the end of the day, I don't think they know what they're doing, but I do think this kind of restrictive planning benefits existing homeowners at the expense of incoming homeowners and to me it seems really wrong.

I don't want to live in a housing estate, I'm happy to live in a city, but not in a house that's built by some big large corporation that built 200 other houses just like it. There's nothing wrong with small developers developing houses, and I feel we need to somewhat go back to that.

Just a little anecdote to really highlight the problem. Back during one of the RTÉ election debates, I think it was the leaders debate, an audience member told his story about how he was living in a mobile home because he couldn't afford a house. Despite this, he was told he would not be able to continue living in a mobile home as he had no planning permission for it. The thing is, not a single one of the parties made any negative comment about the planning system in response to this and how a grown man, woman and I think an approaching child required planning permission to live in a mobile home in what I think I recall was their parent's backyard during a so-called crisis. I'm not someone who greatly loves cars, and I understand there can be negative aspects to one-off housing, but one-off housing is first and foremost a protective measure against a system that does not provide the required housing for the population in the urban centres, getting rid of it could only ever make sense in a dynamic and vibrant housing market that was outputting at least as many if not more houses than people need. I get that people are sensitive about the price of housing since the recession and that for a lot of Irish people, their wealth is tied up in their home, but I and many other people, young people in particular want a home, and it is in my opinion that it is wrong to try to make your house more valuable by banning me from building mine.

I don't want any restrictions on building other than actual building safety or environmental regulations and maybe at a stretch a tiny smidgin of regulation to stop people from ruining other people's views, light etc.

I've lived in America, Germany and the UK and I do not like or want the top-down planning laws that clearly exist in those countries. Give me Donegal any day, where just by looking at any town or driving down any road you can clearly see that the place wasn't designed according to some glorious plan but evolved naturally and was driven by the people of the place. That's why it looks so beautiful. Supposedly people come to Ireland for the unspoilt countryside, but this is clearly nonsense, Ireland is probably one of the most spoilt countries in the world. Literally every centimetre has been thoroughly touched many many times by human hands. Even countries like England and Germany are more "unspoilt" with their larger national parks and forests. Ireland isn't beautiful because it's "unspoilt". It's beautiful because it's free (or at least was), and you can tell that just by looking at it.

muffler

Put your point or question into a few lines and people might read it.

Seth Brundle

Planning is required for proper development. Without it, you lose any control over what kinds of development can go where. Without planning you would have a landfill in the middle of a park and the likes of Intel standing between housing and a school or shops.

There's nothing wrong with small developers developing houses, and I feel

If you're referring to one-off housing, there are issues from a sustainable planning perspective

User1111

You make a good point Seth, let me clarify that I am referring more towards residential development side of things, but yes, I would like a loss of control over development because I think uncontrolled development tends to look better e.g. Donegal for example, compared to well planned as you might call it development. Also for all the other reasons I outlined and considering the existence of the so-called housing crisis. I'm not saying to completely scrap planning permission as a concept, far from it. I just want to see it significantly watered down. And yes I am talking about one-off housing in particular, but also other types of development.

In response to muffler, you make a good point but preferably I would prefer if less people read it as long as those that do get a comprehensive overview of my opinion on this.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123035127#Comment_123035127

This is a very uninformed post.

… the big and obvious regulatory difference between the pre-crisis era and the crisis era is that someone decided to sign a piece of paper saying that for some reason you can only build houses where the government tells you to.

Planning law s and zoning have existed for much longer than the housinf crisis. You seem to mistakenly believe this is a recent thing.

If people want houses to be built in towns and cities they should make the land in towns and cities cheaper, and there are many options for how to do this (tax it, buy chunks and sell it back to first-time buyers, state/council-run construction), not ban it in the countryside.

are you really suggesting that the state should remove land from private individuals and sell/give it away. That's far far more crazy than not letting people build what ever they want

Everything Is About Land. You can earn as much as you like, but if you don't have land to live on you have nothing. The older generation already own the houses they live and so are enriching themselves immensely of the work of the new generation.

If there were no planning laws, how would this allow young people to build one-off houses? They wouldn't suddenly on land

I don't want to live in a housing estate, I'm happy to live in a city, but not in a house that's built by some big large corporation that built 200 other houses just like it. There's nothing wrong with small developers developing houses, and I feel we need to somewhat go back to that.

You want a one off house in a city?
If you can afford that, you have no issue getting a house somewhere.

getting rid of it could only ever make sense in a dynamic and vibrant housing market that was outputting at least as many if not more houses than people need.

If poeple don't need houses. then there is little point in building them. You seem to think that builders would go nuts and build like crazy is planning was removed.

Give me Donegal any day, where just by looking at any town or driving down any road you can clearly see that the place wasn't designed according to some glorious plan but evolved naturally and was driven by the people of the place. That's why it looks so beautiful.

Have you not considered that one of the reasons that Donegal retains its natural beauty is because that there are planning controls in place?

Supposedly people come to Ireland for the unspoilt countryside, but this is clearly nonsense, Ireland is probably one of the most spoilt countries in the world. Literally every centimetre has been thoroughly touched many many times by human hands.

Comparing the density of ireland to countries like England and Germany highlights the huge flaw here.

User1111

Hi Mellor,

Planning law s and zoning have existed for much longer than the housinf crisis. You seem to mistakenly believe this is a recent thing.

I understand how this may seem silly, but I am merely making an observation as a new person about how the housing that seemed to exist prior to my entry into the world appeared to be subject to less stringent planning regulations. This is merely from observation of the houses themselves.

are you really suggesting that the state should remove land from private individuals and sell/give it away. That's far far more crazy than not letting people build what ever they want

No I did not suggest that, my three suggestions were, 1. taxation of the land, 2. purchasing chunks of land near cities and reselling to first time buyers, 3. state-run construction. None of those options would require compulsory purchases.

If there were no planning laws, how would this allow young people to build one-off houses? They wouldn't suddenly on land

Agricultural land is quite abundant in Ireland. I understand that it can be a good idea to maintain a level of separation so that the price/value that is being stored in non-agricultural land doesn't leak too much into agricultural land and make it harder to trade, however acquiring land for housing is not too difficult in the countryside due to the distributed land ownership patterns (a legacy of the land war). Planning laws restrict the land that is available for housing meaning those who wish to buy land for housing are forced to buy it off of a smaller pool of owners, typically those who own land near urban areas. This is also the most expensive land because people want to live near cities anyway but this is just making it more in demand.

You want a one off house in a city?
If you can afford that, you have no issue getting a house somewhere.

I understand the confusion here. Yes, I am a proponent of traditional style One-Off housing in the countryside. In the cities, what I mean is that I prefer individually constructed houses. I was not suggesting that we should all have big huge houses with spacious gardens in the cities, I was suggesting that we need more of a focus on single-unit construction projects because that way we don't have copy+paste housing estates everywhere. It is quite obvious to me that in most of the country, the number of houses built per construction project is larger than it typically was historically, which can be verified by looking at any batch of old houses in cities throughout Ireland which seem to have been built in much smaller batches than is the case today.

While there are economies of scale, big companies are always notoriously riddled with inefficiency, and uniform housing estates that are built to a plan always look less nice than an equivalent amount of development built by a multitude of different companies. This last point is a matter of taste so I don't intend to argue with you about that, it is understandable.

If poeple don't need houses. then there is little point in building them. You seem to think that builders would go nuts and build like crazy is planning was removed.


People do need houses though, there is a significant shortage of houses. I think that there would be more houses built if planning regulations were lighter, so yes, exactly as you said but without the craziness and the nuts, I think they would simply build "more", not a "nuts/crazy" amount more.

Have you not considered that one of the reasons that Donegal retains its natural beauty is because that there are planning controls in place?


I wasn't referring to the natural beauty of Donegal. I was referring to the architectural beauty of Donegal.

(However, it should be noted that I am strongly in favour of planning restrictions for the protection of actual natural beauty. e.g. no ugly estates/multi-dwelling developments in truly beautiful locations like dingle or crookhaven, and no construction on monuments of natural beauty and natural parks, e.g. the Burren or on top of Croagh Patrick).

Comparing the density of ireland to countries like England and Germany highlights the huge flaw here.

There are less people in Ireland but there are also less protected spaces. Germany and England have more natural parks which are untouched by human hands. Ireland is mostly farmland. Anywhere that isn't a city or a bog is a farm. There are some natural parks that are completely untouched but less than in Germany and England. A key point is not whether something has been touched by human hands but how it has been touched. Because Ireland is mostly owned by relatively small farmers compared to the previously mentioned countries, most of Ireland's farmland is beautiful and human. This is in comparison to England/Germany where lots of land in the hands of less people mean the farms are more corporate/brutal than Irish farms and this is why these countries look more spoilt.

I appreciate the response though! Thanks for taking the time to read my message! I hope more people read my message and we create a truly great housing market like Estonia!

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123091775#Comment_123091775

I understand how this may seem silly, but I am merely making an observation as a new person about how the housing that seemed to exist prior to my entry into the world appeared to be subject to less stringent planning regulations. This is merely from observation of the houses themselves.

As I says, planning controls exist much longer than the recent housing crisis. Most of the houses you are refering to were subject to planning.

No I did not suggest that, my three suggestions were, 1. taxation of the land, 2. purchasing chunks of land near cities and reselling to first time buyers, 3. state-run construction. None of those options would require compulsory purchases.

For the government to purchase land near cities. It would have to be complusory purchased, or held to random on price.

Yes, I am a proponent of traditional style One-Off housing in the countryside. In the cities, what I mean is that I prefer individually constructed houses. I was not suggesting that we should all have big huge houses with spacious gardens in the cities, I was suggesting that we need more of a focus on single-unit construction projects because that way we don't have copy+paste housing estates everywhere.

One-off housing typically has a much higher construction and land cost. This approach would increase the cost, abd reduce the supply of houses to the market.

I wasn't referring to the natural beauty of Donegal. I was referring to the architectural beauty of Donegal.

Which is still a product of the planning control you want to abolish.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123091775#Comment_123091775

No I did not suggest that, my three suggestions were, 1. taxation of the land, 2. purchasing chunks of land near cities and reselling to first time buyers, 3. state-run construction. None of those options would require compulsory purchases.

1. taxation of the land.

Interesting suggestion. From 1st february 2025 we will have Residential Zoned Land Tax for the first time, which will do what you are suggesting. We already have derelict site tax which taxes brownfield derelict sites within urban areas. so in effect, this is already happening.

2. reselling to first time buyers

Youre talking here about offering serviced sites to first time buyers to build their own houses?? If so, we already do that in many local authorities as part of their social housing provision responsibilities. However there are very few 'first time buyers' who are on social housing lists and can afford to build their own homes. If your talking about simply provision of social housing, then that happens through Part V housing, but the biggest glaring issue with that is, if theres a reduction in private housing supply, theres a reduction in public housing supply.

3. state run construction

EU rules have very tight reins on capital expenditure. good explainer here https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-spending-rules-5787593-Jun2022/

essentially a state run construction project would push debt beyond the allowed rules (3% of yearly GDP). The state woudl have to borrow the money (we are talking about 100's of billions of euros here) We (the state) currently fund housing each year to the tune of about €7 billion per year on the provision of homes, with about €5 billion of that on housing.

not only can we not afford to pump €100 billion into housing, we arent allowed, as if there was a another global crises we'd be completed Fcuked.