Finance commercial vehicle in someone else's name

Jamescfc

Hi all, couldn't see if this was discussed here already but here's my query:

Can I purchase a commercial 4x4 on finance from a garage and register it in my brother's name for example? So he can register and tax and insure it for use on farm? But I want to make the payments on it myself. I am not a tradie or farmer, I am employed privately. Would there be an issue with it being financed by myself but registered and insured by him. No issue paying for it moneywise

Calahonda52

What's the play here , the bro can't raise the finance but needs a 4 by 4?

Could he not be a named driver?

Jamescfc

Hello,

Something like that yes. But I cannot register a commercial vehicle and tax/insure it commercially myself. Only he can do that

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202142#Comment_123202142

I would imagine that the intention is to write it down as a business expense for tax reasons. Which would be fraudulent

goochy

If u get motor finance u would have to remain / be registered as owner as. Otherwise it would be same as selling to someone else

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202207#Comment_123202207

That wouldn't be possible unless the person claiming is actually making the payments. By your reasoning, anyone could claim an expense without actually incurring it.

ferg01

You’d have to tell the insurer that he’s the legal owner and there’s an issue with fronting I believe? If he’s insuring more than one vehicle that might be more expensive. Some counties are far more flexible than others so.

goochy

If the vehicles on finance it has to be registered to that person and you csbt claim vat on something you don't legally own

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202522#Comment_123202522

Self assessment.

Learn the hard way if you get an audit.

You'll note I used the word "fraudulent"

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202541#Comment_123202541

As I said, you could do this with anything. There's no suggestion the OP has any such stupid idea in mind. It's not even slightly subtle. Just making up expenses out of thin air.

But it doesn't need an audit to discover. Putting through large payments not being reflected in your bank account would show up in the tax return.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202559#Comment_123202559

What makes you think payments can't be put through the bank?

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202567#Comment_123202567

Not much of a tax fraud otherwise. You might as well make the car payments yourself.

goochy

I don't believe it's possible if being bought on finance

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202578#Comment_123202578

Do I really need to spell out explicit examples?

You are a PAYE taxpayer. Receipts are irrelevant to you. I'm your best buddy with a part-time sole trader enterprise on the side on top of my own top-rate-tax PAYE employment. You want to buy a new 4X4 with repayments of 10k a year over 6 years. I buy it in my name and register it etc. Maybe claim back VAT if I am registered. I repay the 10k loan from my business account. You give me 8k cash which I spend on coke and hookers. You have the use of the vehicle and can save up diesel receipts for me too. You can similarly reimburse me in cash for tax and insurance every year.

How would that not be fraudulent in your considered opinion? Will you get away with it? Maybe, maybe not. You'll have some sort of paper trail though

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202592#Comment_123202592

Yes, but that's not the case here. It's the opposite. The PAYE guy is paying off the loan and the farmer (sole trader) is getting the car.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202619#Comment_123202619

Read it again.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202623#Comment_123202623

Maybe you should?

But I want to make the payments on it myself. I am not a tradie or farmer, I am employed privately.

Jamescfc

Theres no VAT being claimed back. It would just be bought by myself on finance and registered in someone else's name so they can tax and insure it then.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202663#Comment_123202663

I've no doubt of that. Some people seem to want to make unfounded accusations for reasons known only to themselves.

Cushtie

If its new vehicle you usually need to send a copy of the VRT cert to the finance company to show whose name it was registered in.

If used it would be a matter of the garage agreeing to do the transfer of ownership into the brothers name.

However, I'm pretty sure there would be some terms and conditions in the finance agreement that the owner is the person taking out the finance agreement.

Having said that I just realised my wife's car is in her name and the loan is in mine. 😁

Jamescfc

It would be a second hand vehicle

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202657#Comment_123202657

Have another go.

I'll help you. The OP (Mr. Employed Privately) wants to buy it for himself but have it on paper as being owned by Mr. Farmer/Tradie brother even though the OP will be the actual beneficiary and user of the vehicle.

You can read between the lines for after that

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202731#Comment_123202731

Except he doesn't say that (use it himself). Maybe he will, but that's not what he says.

And if so, it's much more likely that he's doing this to have it taxed as commercial and save on road tax.

Cushtie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202731#Comment_123202731

I think the op said the opposite. That it was to be used on the farm by the brother.

"Can I purchase a commercial 4x4 on finance from a garage and register it in my brother's name for example? So he can register and tax and insure it for use on farm? But I want to make the payments on it myself"

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202758#Comment_123202758

Well only the OP can answer that.

Scenario A: The OP wants to buy his farmer/tradie brother a 4x4 for the brother to use and the OP wants to pay for it

Scenario B: the OP wants to buy a vechicle for his own use, but wants to put it in his brothers name and have the brother tax and insure it for him.

You think it's A, I think it's B

goochy

Insurance will definitely be a problem

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202762#Comment_123202762

It is admittedly open to that interpretation as it is left ambiguous, and I would guess deliberately so. Nothing wrong with that. But I take it to be that he can tax and insure it through the farm as if it were to be used on the farm - but that in reality it will be for the OPs use.

Many people who have a sideline such as that basically run it at breakeven or a loss. They will put things though the books of the sideline. So that rather than buying yourself that new car from your after tax income, you buy yourself a 4X4 for "farm use". The conditions of commercial tax is that the vehicle is to be only used for commercial purposes, but the insurance will also normally cover you for private use so issues would never arise in practice.

If you have a high paying PAYE job, you can even offset your losses from your sideline against your PAYE income. But you cannot do it year-after-year. I think you can only run a loss for 2 out of every 3 years.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202767#Comment_123202767

You thought he was buying it so that he could defraud the taxman.

I would imagine that the intention is to write it down as a business expense for tax reasons. Which would be fraudulent

I think it's either A or B. But the discussion started because you had a completely different idea because you hadn't read the OP correctly.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202793#Comment_123202793

What do you think the OP is asking about that couldn't be interpreted as trying to "save" tax (to use less inflammatory words)?

Scenario A is not believable. Not impossible but not believable as it makes no sense unless the OP won the Euromillions. In which case they wouldn't be financing the car.

Even if scenario A were correct (which it isn't), technically the brother would have a gift tax liability if beyond allowed limits.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202802#Comment_123202802

What's your point? It's one or the other. You've admitted as much yourself.

And it's completely irrelevant to the multiple posts we've been through to eventually get to the point where we could actually discuss what the OP wrote and not what you thought they'd written.

I'm tired of this pointless nonsense. I'm sure everyone else is too. Bye.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202810#Comment_123202810

Yes, you are wrong. It is pointless alright. Bye

User1998

Anyway.. A garage can register the car in your brother’s name, meanwhile invoicing the car and finance agreements to you. Its no different to a father financing a car for his daughter etc etc

paddysdream

Can't see any issue really. Car here is in my wife'e name although the finance payments came from my account which is a farm account. People overthink this stuff sometimes. The finance couldn't give a hoot as long as you pay, the taxman couldn't give a hoot as long as he gets his rightful due.

From a comprehension point of view the OP is clear; he intends to purchase a 4x4 and his brother will insure, tax and presumably upkeep it and have the use of it. As his brother is a farmer its very unlikely he is vat registered (its possible but very few are as its not financially viable for reasons) so therefore the only taxable deductible spend by the brother is diesel, repair, plus tax and insurance which I imagime is legit as you could claim those on a rented/ leased vehicle.

The OP is a PAYE employee I assume so unlikely to be able to offset 4x4 finance payments against his income.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123206731#Comment_123206731

The finance couldn't give a hoot as long as you pay,

I'd imagine that the finance do give a hoot in case you don't pay and the asset used to secure the loan is now in someone else's name.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123207576#Comment_123207576

The registration name is not proof of ownership. There are many scenarios where it's necessary to have a different name on their than the beneficial owner. Insurance policy for one.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123202731#Comment_123202731

That's your reading of the original post or assumption. Its not stated.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123208769#Comment_123208769

Yes it is.

1. The Op said "Can I purchase" and "I want to make the payments on it myself"
2. The OP said "he can register and tax and insure it for use on farm".

I think your issue is a naive assumption/extrapolation that point 2 is actually saying "so the he can use it on the farm". It doesn't say that. He wants the brother to tax it as if it were to be used on the farm (to avail of commercial tax) and to insure it as if it were to be used on the farm (i.e. to put it through the farm books).

Putting a 4x4 through the books of a business operation would be quite common for business owners once they can justify it. A PAYE payer buying a vehicle for a business owner as a gift makes zero sense. Using it for personal use is somewhat of a grey area depending on the mix of business/personal use. If there is no actual use by the business, then it wouldn't be allowed, but the chances of being caught are slim to none.

It seems that yourself (and some other posters) are under the impression that the OP is asking something akin to "is there a law preventing me from giving someone else a gift of a vehicle".

Kaisr Sose

@Donald Trump

But you are the one putting additional facts into the mix and taking them as gospel, in the absence of any facts to support your assumptions.

The OP in their second post, and in answer to a question about whether it's a case that the brother cannot get finance but needs a 4 x 4, answers "yes, something like that". If—and in the absence of clear answer to the question asked—that is the reason, it makes total sense for someone else to buy the vehicle.