Primary school admission during the school year

hometruths

I have a query about school admissions I'm looking for any teachers experience of or views on. Apologies for wordy post!

Next month we are moving back to an area we previously left, and hoping to get our two kids back into the same primary school starting again at beginning of summer term.

Still in touch with other parents in school etc, so knowing their year group was not full and oversubbed - probably room for at least 3 pupils in each of the relevant classes - we didn't make the application for the places until we were sure if/when we would be back in the area. Having read all the relevant admissions policy/notice/guidelines our understanding was that in the middle of the school year as long as the classes were not full the school would confirm the available place on receipt of the application.

Just been told that in both kid's cases there are "about 5 or 6" ahead of them on the list, and school is waiting to hear whether those parents are going to accept the offers of places or not, they'd no idea of timescale, and we may not hear one way or another until immediately before term starts at end of April. They also recommended applying to other schools in the area.

I was a bit taken aback, and last thing I want to do is get all bolshy with the admissions officer, hence asking on here how common or likely a scenario is this?

Everything we've read and everybody we've spoken to (apart from the admissions officer!) led us to believe in this scenario if you move to an area and apply for a school place, if it is not oversubscribed there is no waiting list, it is either definitively full or it is not, so the application and offer or refusal is fairly instantaneous.

Unlike the start of a school year you wouldn't apply to a number schools in the area, it seems unlikely that there are a number of parents applying to multiple schools in the middle of the school year in case they need the place, and then take time to consider whether or not they want it?

Does anybody have any idea if this is common occurrence?

derb12

So is the school saying that those 5or6 are hoping to start in the autumn? That’s the only thing that would make sense. I’m in secondary and getting a new student mid year is really unusual ( 700 students and no midyear additions this year for example) but we do get a handful of new students at the start of each year (maybe 3 or 4 per 120 in a year).

Most schools would take a definite student now ahead of the promise of a new student in the future. And if they have offered a place, they would have to have some commitment from those parents with a deadline for acceptance.

Your situation sounds fishy. Sounds like they are just being difficult. Maybe they resent that you left?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123311259#Comment_123311259

I thought it sounded a bit fishy too, hence the post. I don't think they would resent us leaving, nor can we think of any other reason we might have annoyed them, and there was never any problem with the kids behaviour etc.

I'd agree it sounds like the 5 or 6 are September starters, and we know there is a wait list for Sept as we are on it and have been since last November. But we were also told that these Sept places would not be offered until late May at the earliest, so they should not have offered them prior to receiving our application in March for summer term start.

I also triple checked in the conversation to make sure we hadn't got our wires crossed - asked specifically to clarify she was talking about admission for summer term and not new school year start in September.

Just keeping our fingers crossed that we hear something before start of Easter holidays, which is very soon.

CraftySue

deleted

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123311259#Comment_123311259

I think we've realised what has happened in at least one of the classes which actually has 8 on the waiting list.

These people are not mid year applications, they have been on list since pre September 24 term start - we withdrew our child in first week of term, and they did not fill the place now think because the class was deemed to be full even with our in child in it.

We thought that because three kids had already left the class and not been replaced, it would not be an issue. We've only been away for a little over 6 months.

They obviously knew that we would not get back in, so we're very angry that they didn't tell us that, but not much we can do about it.

byhookorbycrook

If you left before Sept. 30th, it may have had repercussions for the school in terms of staffing .Schools can’t “ hold” places either . Did you give the school a timeline for a return ?

Most schools would jump at receiving additional numbers, so it’s unlikely it’s a ploy to deny your child a space .

byhookorbycrook

I’d also add that a school can be considered oversubscribed, even if there are seeming “ spaces” in one room . The numbers are calculated by the number of children in the whole school.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123338573#Comment_123338573

We actually notified them exactly on 30th September, late in the day as it happens, and probably late enough that it was not processed before early October if that makes a difference?

We are well aware that they cannot, and should not "hold" a place, which is why we didn't lie and tell them we'd be back in October! We said we thought most likely return was Sept 25, possible mid year re entry summer term 25.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123338587#Comment_123338587

Yes, thats makes sense, but there were no additional teachers added to the staff in March, nor a drop in pupils. So the ratio did not change from October to March, and we're wondering the places were not offered to others until after we made the application.

One of the classes was less than the minimum number required to be considered to be oversubscribed as per guidelines specified by the department.

glack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123338852#Comment_123338852

Which guidelines are you talking about here? You also mention an 'Admissions Officer'…. I don't know of any school that has such a person employed. Is this the secretary, the principal, a teacher (possibly with a post of responsibility for admissions), the deputy??

In any case, if there are other children on a waiting list they are well within their rights (and required) to offer those students on the waitlist a place, if it exists, first. If those on the waitlist are hoping for September places, they could in theory be offered places for summer term before your children. And you would have to wait to see whether or not each family ahead of yours accepts or declines. That is assuming the school has places they are willing to give out. Just because a child left the classroom, doesn't mean the school has a place they are willing to fill. Schools have different policies on what their "full" number is. My school, for example, last year only accepted 23 in any class. Pupil teacher ratio is 23:1 so we were well within our rights to do that. This year we took 24 max. Only increased as there is a huge pressure for places in the area. Some schools will take over 30 in classes, particularly if they are the only school serving the area. Some schools may only take 20. There can be many factors and I'm not sure whether the school is required to detail out their reasons.

My one piece of advice is to make sure you have actually applied for a place. Fill that form even if they say they are full. Email and ask for a decision/when a decision will be made. Create a paper trail! Schools might say one thing in person or on the phone but may not be willing to put that on paper. Be nice, be polite, but be annoying!

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123338926#Comment_123338926

Guidelines of minimum number deemed full being 23 being guidance issued by the school patron in question, who state "Department guidelines" which presumably is the Dept of Education.

One of the classes had 21 in it.

Sorry, admissions officer probably a misnomer - one of two secretaries in the office deals with applications and offers etc.

In any case, if there are other children on a waiting list they are well within their rights (and required) to offer those students on the waitlist a place, if it exists, first. 

Agreed, we don't have an issue with that. We have always understood that school was legally required to offer the places if there are children on a waitlist. But we also understood they were legally required to offer them as soon as they became available - six months ago - but school appear to have only offered them in March after we submitted our application.

That was the query in the OP, how can there be a valid waiting list since start of Sept if places weren't offered in October when school knew they were available.

If those on the waitlist are hoping for September places, they could in theory be offered places for summer term before your children.

We think that's a plausible scenario that has happened. But they have not yet officially offered the places in writing for September 2025 - for years other than the intake year, they only offer the places in late May.

And in any event a wait list is only valid "for the school year in which admission is being sought". So if you have sought admission for school year 2025/26, you can't be pulled forward to take the place up mid year 2024/25. It is governed by a totally separate annual admissions notice. They'd need to have another valid application in place for current year.

Just because a child left the classroom, doesn't mean the school has a place they are willing to fill. Schools have different policies on what their "full" number is…….
……Some schools will take over 30 in classes, particularly if they are the only school serving the area. Some schools may only take 20. There can be many factors and I'm not sure whether the school is required to detail out their reasons.

Yes, understood, and if they'd sorry we're full to the brim we cannot take any more, we'd understand that. But what has us scratching our head is what changed between October and mid March, that places became available. No teachers added, and no pupils left.

What we think has happened, discovered by chatting to other parents who have already gone through post JI intake year admissions process in previous years, is this, certainly at the very least for the class of only 21.

Some applications for following school year Sept also apply as late applications for the current year. In this if there is only one or two applicants for a class with space for one or two, they have got into the habit of rather than notifying in writing within three weeks, informally telling the parents that there are spaces available but they don't need to make up their mind until such time that any further late applications are made.

If none are made they can accept the place for Sept when the offer is issued in late May, but if a few of months after the initial application somebody else applies to start summer term, which will fill the class, the original applicants are informed they will need to accept a formal offer now for the summer term or else they won't get a space.

It seems a plausible explanation, because it sort of seems fair enough, but it is still totally against the admissions policy etc and we'd feel a bit sore about it.

They're definitely not great at emails, and prefer the phone! We're remaining polite at all times, but persistent.

glack

So in a way, your application is forcing their hand. I would stand firm and await a formal decision.

You also mention no new teachers added - schools get new teachers in most cases at the start of the school year but based on the previous school years numbers. So the number of students they had on Sept 30th 2024 will dictate how many classroom teachers they have for 2025-2026 school year - which is stupid but it's how it works. It's possible they are due to lose a teacher so don't want over full classes for next year. Without knowing all the details it's hard to know if what they're doing is fair or not.

hometruths

Thanks @glack

So in a way, your application is forcing their hand. I would stand firm and await a formal decision.

Yes definitely hand is being forced one way or another.

But what happens if we don't get a formal decision, i.e we are just verbally told by phone that places have been filled and they will not be offering any more for that class this year?

glack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123342099#Comment_123342099

That's when you have a decision to make. How badly do you want a place in this specific school?

I'd probably look for a written decision. With that you can decide if you want to appeal or not. There is a process called a Section 29 appeal that, should the school be found to be in breach of procedure or school policy, they may be required to offer a place to your children. It is essential that you follow protocol to the letter to have a chance at being successful. Please also be aware that it would be unlikely that this process would be completed before end of the school year.

Also be aware that if you are successful, depending on the school culture etc you could be the first ever family to go down that route and the school may not take that well - it shouldn't matter, but it could! Unfortunately sometimes schools can hold grudges.