Kicked out of Gloria Jeans

Coffee Lover

Hi, My wife and I went into Gloria Jeans in Cork on Saturday. We had a pram but are concious of not causing obstructions, so we carefully parked it at a table well away from causing one. I can honestly say that we took up no extra space than if we didn't have a pram at all.

But then a member of staff came to us to tell us that it was manager's policy that there were to be no prams in the shop and we had to leave. This was very upsetting especially for my wife, and she felt very discriminated against.

We did not kick up a fuss, as the staff member was only the foot soldier, but I want to know if they can actually legally do this, and is there somewhere I can find out what I can do about it.

Would appreciate any comments.

Regards

Coffee Lover

Nukem

Ah thats horse sh*t :mad:

Granted buggies thsi time of year there are loads in cafes and all that but everyone has an equal right.I would have freaked if that had been me.

Did you ask for names or ask to see the policy,was it on the wallbehind the counter?id write some letter do you know that.Really annoyed by this.

Dead sorry to hear about this in Cork :mad:

dahamsta

I doubt it's against the law, but you could still go the trial by media route. First thing is to check if it's signposted, then tell someone in De Paper your story, highlighting how discriminated against you felt, and the fact that whereas in the old days you could just leave the pram outside and carry the child in, those days are gone. They'll lap it up as a human interest story and the shop will get embarassed and probably change their policy or offer you a freebie. At the very least it'll get them to put up a prominent notice.

You'll have a better chance of getting this in the Echo, but it's worth trying the Examiner first. Don't email, call now while it's fresh in your mind. Ask for the newsdesk and explain the story quickly to the person that answers the phone and they'll put you through to the right person.

adam

maccydoodies

I wouldnt have that. No way. Was there a sign up anywhere in the shop? I would write a complaint to them and demand an explanation. They will probably say "insurance blah blah blah" but thats not right. What if you were wheelchair bound. Would they kick you out then? Ive never heard of this Coffe shop but are they part of a Chain? If so contact the head office first and ask them whats the policy on prams in shops. hth

Nukem

Do as the lads said.Honest man fair does to ya i would have gone skits.
Did they even ask you to put the pram down?

Coffee Lover

Thanks for the quick replies folks.

On a quick look on exit, I didn't see a sign preventing prams.

Yes they are part of a chain, international.

Very valid point on the wheelchair access as well, this will strengthen my argument. I think I will write that letter.

Chad ghostal

You should get on the radio, thats the most rediculous thing iv ever head,
im sure Neil Prendiville would give this some air time.

that really is just idiotic.. :mad: :mad:

dahamsta

Chad ghostal wrote:

thats the most rediculous thing iv ever head

"Ridiculous" has to be the most misspelled word on Boards.ie. Unbelievable how many people spell it with an 'e', which is bizarre cos it doesn't even sound like "red". But I digress...

im sure Neil Prendiville would give this some air time.

Yeah, because you really want that ignorant dick supporting your cause.

Seriously though, the ultra sneaky would pop into the store first to see what they're listening to. Although if it's a chain, it's prolly musak...

adam

Chad ghostal

dahamsta wrote:

"Ridiculous" has to be the most misspelled word on Boards.ie. Unbelievable how many people spell it with an 'e', which is bizarre cos it doesn't even sound like "red". Bit I digress...

i spel bad. :rolleyes:

dahamsta wrote:

Yeah, because you really want that ignorant dick supporting your cause.
Seriously though, the ultra sneaky would pop into the store first to see what they're listening to. Although if it's a chain, it's prolly musak...
adam

he is a dick, but non the less alot of people listen to him.. but any radio station would do.. just a suggestion.
i find it hard to believe having a pram is a reason to be refused admission to a frickin coffeeshop..
especially if people went to the trouble of putting it out of the way.

dudara

That's a wee bit harsh. If they had a sign up, in a prominent position advising you of this policy then they'd have a leg to stand on. As it is, I'd definitely kick up a fuss.

Write a letter to management outlining your grievance. Contact 96fm (Much as i hate Prenderville, this is what the man is here for)

Fysh

Personally, I think that they do have a point in that many prams/buggies these days are massive and take up much more space than they need to. I can see the parallels with disabled access but I don't really see why a small premises should be obliged to provide space for customers to place these buggies. I'm not sure what the legal position on this would be, but I don't think that discrimination is really a valid description - it's not like they said you couldn't come in because you had children. I mean, if you had somewhere to stow the pram (car?) you'd have been allowed back in. It's not really any different to nightclubs being allowed to "reserve the right to admission", i think. Thus I'd expect it to be down to the store to decide, although if you do feel strongly about it, you can start some sort of public awareness campaign, or even just go to another coffee shop that doesn't do this.

It's interesting to see some places implementing policies about this. I find that walking through shops or even streets in town on weekends is made a far less pleasant experience due to the ubiquity of huge prams everywhere - I'm not saying that you are one of these people, but policies that make people reconsider the use of such outsized devices are surely to everyone's benefit.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

couldn't one of you have taken the pram outside for a few minutes while the other shopped?

deRanged

Mordeth wrote:

couldn't one of you have taken the pram outside for a few minutes while the other shopped?

not really - it's a coffee shop.


I had a quick look in passing today and didn't see any signs about prams. If I've time in the morning I'll check in by the counter. I'm sure I've seen prams/buggies there before - at the table by the front, almost out of the place.
I think it's a disgrace. It's a narrow shop with very little space but still there's no call for discriminating against people with kids.

Tiriel

I had a similar experience with Gloria Jeans on Patrick St. Went in for a coffee with my Mum on a break from work during the summer.. she had coffee and I had tea and a bagel with cream cheese. A member of staff came over to the table and advised us to hurry up and leave or order something to eat.. aimed at my mother.. as it is their policy to only allow customers with food sit at tables between 12pm and 2pm.

It was a lousy situation. I felt like throwing the stupid bagel in her face and saying stuff it!!! We left pretty quickly as we were being stared out of it.. but have never gone back in there since.

simu

The place sounds like a slickly-oiled money machine. It wouldn't kill them to be a bit more considerate towards customers. :mad:

JohnK

I understand your frustration but at the same time I can see the point of view of the staff. If the place filled up, which would be easy due to the size of it, you would be causing a major disruption trying to get passed with a buggy. That’s not entirely fair on the other customers. After all, they are there to relax not play "musical chairs" every few minutes because someone else wants to get in/out. That being said however, that policy should be posted very clearly on the door of the shop.

PowerHouseDan

I am not surprised.I work there for almost a year.it was shocking.The owners wife is a right old cow.but he is sound out she makes all the rules thats why i left.The worker was only covering his ass because she would make ya feel this(.) small.She just stuck up driving aroung in her 03 lexus jeep.The staff are grand just everyone is afraid of her.she monitors the cctv system all the time.they made me kick out a load of people one time there was hardly any people in there and about 4 girls walked in 3 of which bought a drink.(all very hot)i had to tell the other one if she doesnt buy something she has to leave.They pay crap there was a american girl working there they paid her 1.50 under minimum wage for under 18and she was 22.

MidnightQueen

I'm really shocked to hear that my locals would do something like that. :mad: They should be shot!!

L!aM

I avoid the place like the plague. Was kicked out once when I was 16 and refused to return since. Gingerbread House may not have mocha triple decaf double espresso frappucinos with sprinkles but they have friendly staff and a nice relaxed atmosphere. A lot more important imo. Ooh and doughnuts.

frodi

I'd check with the equality agency, no buggies is discrimination on family grounds, not allowed. Do they ban wheelchairs, they take up about as much space. All in all i reckon the publicity route is the way to go.

Nasty_Girl

I dunno if you can call it discrimination in a legal sense, it's like when bouncers say they can't let you in with runners on. there's no reason for it (if there is could someone fill me in?). If you ask me the place is just a snotty dump and I wouldn't bother me hole with it. I know of a restaurant down my side of the country that just doesn't allow kids full stop. Some places are just like that.

parsi

The G.J. in the Savoy Centre has such a notice up . Or I seem to remember seeing it there one days and striking it off the list of places to go that aren't McDs when the kids are with you and you're gasping.

During the summer on a sunday I used walk into town pushing the youngest guy in his buggy, wander around and then go in G.Js on Pana for a frappacino, take it outside and sit on the stone block..

frodi

Nasty_Girl wrote:

I dunno if you can call it discrimination in a legal sense, it's like when bouncers say they can't let you in with runners on. there's no reason for it (if there is could someone fill me in?). If you ask me the place is just a snotty dump and I wouldn't bother me hole with it. I know of a restaurant down my side of the country that just doesn't allow kids full stop. Some places are just like that.

Bouncers can discriminate on the grounds of the look on you face if they like (and they do) but it is against the law to discriminate on the grounds of family status. Generally speaking it is only people with small children that use buggies. If they claim that iot is for insurance reasons then let them produce a letter from their insurers saying so.

DukeDredd

Just wondering - if you just told them to F-off when asked to leave what would happen then? There's no way in hell i would get up and leave in that situation - but then again i have no problem kicking up a fuss in public if i know i'm being treated unfairly.

frodi

DukeDredd wrote:

Just wondering - if you just told them to F-off when asked to leave what would happen then? There's no way in hell i would get up and leave in that situation - but then again i have no problem kicking up a fuss in public if i know i'm being treated unfairly.

They would have to call the guards, otherwise it's assault esp. if you are not creating a disturbance or such. I'd love to see McDowells troopadors escort somebody out just beacuse they had a buggy.

Fysh

I don't mean to defend Gloria Jeans here (having only been there once and finding it ok although expensive) but if the policy is regarding buggies rather than children then it's not discrimination based on family status. Believe it or not, humans have gotten by for thousands of years without buggies. It's an inconvenience and a good reason to avoid the place, particularly if the management are arsey about it, but not against the law as far as I know. And if it's for insurance reasons then, yes, they probably should have a letter or announcement to that effect up on display, but if it's not they're still within their rights to do so. (That said, I'm no lawyer so don't take me as gospel).

Like I say, I don't want to defend them - I'm no fan of corporate coffee chains, and would gladly see the feckers chucked out of the country and replaced by local cafes. I'm tempted to say "just don't go there" as a response, and it certainly is one course of action. While I disagree with people on this particular situation, I'd still say that voicing your concerns is a good idea. Places like Kafkas or Fellinis (or even Cafe Gusto on Washingont street) are tight for space but do not (to my knowledge, at any rate) have a blanket ban on buggies or anything else.

But it'd be much better to do so while also getting some sort of wider awareness of this, so that people can make a choice on the matter - try and get papers involved (probably start with the Echo and the UCC student paper, once you find out the finer details on what sort of legal standing these policies have), possibly radio as well. Personally, I wouldn't stop going to a coffee shop because they banned buggies, but then I don't go to Gloria Jeans anyway. Perhaps other people who do go there would think twice in light of this.

Blitzkrieger

I think it's a bit of an over-reaction. There could be any number of reasons for buggies not being welcome in the place and IMO it should be up to the owner to decide. Even if it is a stupid reason and completly unfair it should still be the owner's decision. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. It's hardly cause for a moral crusade.

[inviting a torrent of abuse]They probably just didn't want kids in there. The place is tiny and the buggy probably would take up a lot of space even if it was parked neatly. Can you imagine if a lot of people started bringing kids there and they were looking for a changing room? The place is tiny so children and all there paraphernalia would take up loads of space. A lot of the people they target as customers would probably be put off by having kids in there. The merest suspicion of a dirty nappy/bawling child and I wouldn't go near the place. I've nothing against kids and usually wouldn't really notice any noise/smell, but if I'm looking for a quiet cup of coffee......[/inviting a torrent of abuse]

I've only been in there once but if the staff are as bad as you say I doubt the place would last long. I went in about 1:30 and sat down with my (lovely) cappucino. I wasn't asked to buy something to eat or get out. I even got half a smile when handed my cup - a very rare thing at any place in Cork.

L!aM

Actually, there is nothing worse than a baby crying, especially if you're trying to drink a cup of coffee. Even so, the place is snobby and overpriced, just avoid it. Kick up a fuss just to spite them for being assholes.

Lemming

The use of the "bouncer/nite-club" analogy is *really* inappropriate to arguing the case against buggies. Nite-clubs are by definition "invitation only" and can thus discriminate (to a certain degree) although can have their licensed premises status revoked.

A coffee house is not "by invitation only" and therefore the argument holds about as much sway as arguing that Mickey Mouse is a real talking, walking mouse that lives three doors down and is a supreme court judge .....

My own personal opinion is that if this coffee house seems as bad as some of you say, then stick it to them for the all the crap treatment they've dished out over the years.

Fysh

Lemming wrote:

The use of the "bouncer/nite-club" analogy is *really* inappropriate to arguing the case against buggies. Nite-clubs are by definition "invitation only" and can thus discriminate (to a certain degree) although can have their licensed premises status revoked.

"By invitation only" maybe, and I presume you're making reference to the use of "Right Of Admission Reserved" policies (usually denoted by two huge bouncers who'll eat you alive if you try to get in wearing runners, and a sticker saying R.O.A.R. on the wall by the door).

Nonetheless, the comparison stands. Why? Because the kind of selection applied by a bouncer when choosing who is acceptable for the club cannot be based on ethnic, sex-based, or sexual-orientation-based reasons, according to the law. And banning buggies within the store does not fall under any of those descriptions.

Meaning that, as originally intended, the actions of Gloria Jeans are, much like the actions of many a bouncer, annoying and symptomatic of the establishment's attitude to its customers, but not actually illegal.

jhegarty

try sending an email to neil@96fm.ie

he is the only man for this sort of thing... if he gets up on his high horse he won't let it go for days...

DukeDredd

jhegarty wrote:

try sending an email to neil@96fm.ie

he is the only man for this sort of thing... if he gets up on his high horse he won't let it go for days...

Wouldn't trust that fecker - it's really difficult to know which side he will take! Maybe in part of the email tell him how great he is or something to up your chances...

seamus

As Fysh says, it's not discrimination based on family status. That would only come into play if you were refused because you had a child.

You can see why they'd do it, but based on what others are saying, the place sounds like a hole. The media route would be good craic.

A coffee house is not "by invitation only" and therefore the argument holds about as much sway as arguing that Mickey Mouse is a real talking, walking mouse that lives three doors down and is a supreme court judge .....

Are you sure? Public houses are not "by invitation only", yet they have the right to refuse admission/service. Exactly the same as a shop has that same right.

Dingatron

Interesting to see the different points of view. I wonder how many defending them have young children in buggies/prams? I think a lot would change their view if they did. Sure they may have a policy but if it's not displayed on view it's not much use. Most people with buggies are aware of the space they take up and park them accordingly. On the otherhand, people without them give you no leaway in shops and on the street. What do you suggest people with buggies do? Maybe shop in buggie friendly shops and only bring your kids for a walk outside of shopping hours.

nesf

Fysh wrote:

"By invitation only" maybe, and I presume you're making reference to the use of "Right Of Admission Reserved" policies (usually denoted by two huge bouncers who'll eat you alive if you try to get in wearing runners, and a sticker saying R.O.A.R. on the wall by the door).

Nonetheless, the comparison stands. Why? Because the kind of selection applied by a bouncer when choosing who is acceptable for the club cannot be based on ethnic, sex-based, or sexual-orientation-based reasons, according to the law. And banning buggies within the store does not fall under any of those descriptions.

Meaning that, as originally intended, the actions of Gloria Jeans are, much like the actions of many a bouncer, annoying and symptomatic of the establishment's attitude to its customers, but not actually illegal.

As far as I am aware, and it has been highlighted above, any shop/pub/coffee place etc, has a right to reserve admission, only public areas to the best of my knowledge are open to all. If a shop decides it doesn't want buggies in their that is the managers right. It will lose them customers, ie ppl with buggies and those that disagree strongly with such a rule. I don't see why people get so worked up about it. There are alot of coffee shops in Cork, with varying levels of whats acceptable. Some put bouncers on the door after a certain time of night (which I agree with).

I think to an extent, that it is unreasonable for people to complain and to get upset about such rules, I can understand why such a small shop would ask that buggies not be brought in there. Especially when the shop does not aim at attracting a family customer base. Now personally I'm not a fan of G.J., I think the place is overpriced and lacks atmosphere, so I don't go in there. I don't think that by choosing an alternative coffee shop that you're going to miss out on much to be honest.

seamus

ding wrote:

Most people with buggies are aware of the space they take up and park them accordingly.

Maybe it's me, but most people I've ever seen with buggies are inconsiderate, obnoxious and just plain rude. Great, you have a kid, and you have to ferry them around somehow, but that doesn't give you a right to force your way down a busy shopping street, hitting people's ankles, leaving the buggy in everyone's way while you browse, glaring at people who you ram into. If you're going shopping, don't bring the child. If it's unavoidable, give yourself some extra time and space - you can't shop the same way that you used to - or else get one of those chest harnesses.

People with buggies get less consideration, because on a busy street, buggies kind of have no place. Unlike wheelchairs, there are viable alternatives to carrying a child in a buggy. I understand that some people are on their own, etc etc, but that's their burden. It doesn't confer any rights on them. By the same token, people who have to take the bus because they can't afford to drive, don't get the right to come into work later, they have to adjust their lifestyle to suit their burden.

Lemming

Fysh wrote:

"By invitation only" maybe, and I presume you're making reference to the use of "Right Of Admission Reserved" policies (usually denoted by two huge bouncers who'll eat you alive if you try to get in wearing runners, and a sticker saying R.O.A.R. on the wall by the door).

No. I'm not making reference to the "right of admission reserved" policies. Nite-clubs are technically "clubs" and therefore admission is by "invitation only". There is a legal difference between the two.....

So, the comparison is about as good as claiming Mickey Mouse is the property of Warner Brothers ......

Apples & Oranges.

Fysh

Ok. So, clarify this for me. Any coffee shop, restaurant, shop or other commercial premises is technically private premises, either owned by the retailer or leased from the owner, with the attendant rights that this confers on them. Yes? This means that it is private property that the retailer is choosing to open up to the public, or sections of the public, in accordance with the license received from the city or county council (or, depending on applicability, other state body).

Now, such commercial premises are bound by law to not discriminate based on age, race, gender, or sexual orientation, unless there is some valid legal requirement to do so (eg under-18's can't buy alcohol, cigarettes or porn). There is no requirement that I'm aware of for them to accept all members of the public purely because the law doesn't specifically require them not to.

And this is the point that I and others have made here. It's not discrimination because of children being present (which would indeed be discrimination based on family status); it's the presence of the buggy that caused the problem. So far there's been no convincing evidence to suggest that the store manager was outside the law by enacting and enforcing a policy against having buggies in store.

So. Legally speaking, nightclubs may indeed be considered differently to normal shops - although that in itself is a bit of a joke, since they don't require membership and have no published charter or rules for membership; moreover, you point out that legally nightclubs are "by invitation only", but generally it's only the very popular nightclubs that enforce a guest-list or members-only policy. So in terms of practical implementation, the difference is negligible - and I do think that in any court case, this would be seen as pertinent to this consideration. The legal requirements on both types of establishment in such general cases are thus very similar, if not the same, insofar as discrimination is concerned.

beer enigma

Remind me never to try Gloria Jeans for Coffee !!

I went into Brown Thomas, cafe Partrick Street yesterday & there was a clothes rail just slightly blocking my pram's entrance to the cafe area - without even asking, two people fromt the cafe shot out and moved it out of my way.......

Guess which one I'm gonna be using next ??

Gloria Jeans should really be highlighted - I not a great Prenderville fan, but I'd love to hear him on the phone to the manager...

parsi

seamus wrote:

Maybe it's me, but most people I've ever seen with buggies are inconsiderate, obnoxious and just plain rude. Great, you have a kid, and you have to ferry them around somehow, but that doesn't give you a right to force your way down a busy shopping street, hitting people's ankles, leaving the buggy in everyone's way while you browse, glaring at people who you ram into. If you're going shopping, don't bring the child. If it's unavoidable, give yourself some extra time and space - you can't shop the same way that you used to - or else get one of those chest harnesses.

People with buggies get less consideration, because on a busy street, buggies kind of have no place. Unlike wheelchairs, there are viable alternatives to carrying a child in a buggy. I understand that some people are on their own, etc etc, but that's their burden. It doesn't confer any rights on them. By the same token, people who have to take the bus because they can't afford to drive, don't get the right to come into work later, they have to adjust their lifestyle to suit their burden.

Hmm.. see this is the thin end of the stick - which group of people are the ones to get everything their own way ?

On roads - motorists want it their way and so what about bikes, pedestrians and motorbikes ?

In Ireland Offline - everyone wants broadband in their back-hole of nowhere even if that infrastructure cost is paid by all users,

In Dublin they want loads of roads even though they are paid for by all of us,

In Knock they want a rail link to Dublin paid for buy us all,

The Dail want longer holidays to take a rest from their hard work,

Before I had kids buggy people drove me spare. Now that I have kids buggy people still drive me spare - they and the old ladies with their trolleybags seem to be the ones who get in my way most of the time. Of course you also have the strollers who seem to think that manners shouldn't be extended to the buggy pusher who is trying to get past.

Somehow I don't think that town should be the preserve of a monocultural, mono-caste, mono-familial situation (made that one up) group of people. People with kids shouldn't have to take on purdah just because other people can't deal with them or realise that for every buggy-pusher who is ignorant there is an unencumbered person who is also ignorant...

parsi

L!aM wrote:

Actually, there is nothing worse than a baby crying, especially if you're trying to drink a cup of coffee.

especially if its your baby and your coffee..but seriously we tend to avoid places if there is a good chance that the kids could be active and brown off other people - so small places are usually out - bigger places where you can hide in a corner but still feel you're in a grownup place (i.e. not McD) are ideal...

GJ LOVER

GLORIA JEANS ROCKSI LOVE GJ .I GO THERE EVERY DAY. AND BY THE WAY THERE IS A SIGN UP CLEARLY SAYING THAT THERE IS A NO BUGGY POLICY. PEOPLE WITH BUGGIES R NOT ASKED TO LEAVE BUT THEY ARE ASKED TO FOLD UP THERE BUGGY IF THEY WANT 2 STAY . I THINK THIS IS REASONABLE AS THE PLACE IS TINY. THE STAFF R NOT TO BLAME THEY R ONLY DOING WAT THEY ARE TOLD AS PART OF THERE JOBS. IF U WANT COFFEE AND HAV A BUGGY WIT U DONT GO THERE . THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER COFFEE SHOPS IN CORK THAT DO ACCOMIDATE 4 BUGGIES.

simu

GJ LOVER wrote:

GLORIA JEANS ROCKSI LOVE GJ .I GO THERE EVERY DAY. AND BY THE WAY THERE IS A SIGN UP CLEARLY SAYING THAT THERE IS A NO BUGGY POLICY. PEOPLE WITH BUGGIES R NOT ASKED TO LEAVE BUT THEY ARE ASKED TO FOLD UP THERE BUGGY IF THEY WANT 2 STAY . I THINK THIS IS REASONABLE AS THE PLACE IS TINY. THE STAFF R NOT TO BLAME THEY R ONLY DOING WAT THEY ARE TOLD AS PART OF THERE JOBS. IF U WANT COFFEE AND HAV A BUGGY WIT U DONT GO THERE . THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER COFFEE SHOPS IN CORK THAT DO ACCOMIDATE 4 BUGGIES.

Right... what are they putting in your coffee?

dahamsta

simu wrote:

Right... what are they putting in your coffee?

Caps Locks.

kensutz

text talk too

M&MsGer

GJ Lover - Are you the owner of the place or something? In regards to folding the buggie up does that mean that people in wheelchairs have to fold up their wheelchair??? I'd love to hear their response to this.
This crap sickens me. I have a four year old and never realised how discriminating so many places (shops, cafes, restaurants etc.) were until I started going out and about with him.
The thing I found was that the majority of places that say “no buggies allowed” sell baby/children’s clothes i.e. Gymboree and/or are "trying" to be family oriented. A buggie takes up less space than a wheelchair so I can only imagine the crap wheelchair bound people have to put up with everyday and to be honest it really p*sses me off.