Ahern does McCabe Killers U-Turn

Mighty_Mouse

But it is pretty sad that the release of these people is made an issue that could hold up political progress on this island.

I feel that the DUP and SF deserve each other. Trimble and Hume won the Nobel Peace prize for compromise

Do you even listen to yourself CORK? :eek: You talk about your disgust at releasing prisoners and in the next sentance talk about compromise being the way forward!!

Explain to me how a country can move from conflict to peace without dealing with the people involved in the conflict!! Jesus Christ man!

Do you not think that there are familys both sides of the divide devastated by the release of their husband, wife, child's killers? But in the GFA we all agreed that such releases was in the best interest of the whole country.

The agreement say all political prisoners before 98. IMO these men were IRA men i.e. political prisoners and therefore are entitled to release.Full stop. It's not nice but it's what I agreed to when I voted for the GFA.

I also agreed to the release of loyalist killers who have yet to establish a lasting cease-fire. Again, not a nice situation but its in the best interest of the GFA as AGREED by all of us.

Again I believe that issues like these have to be considered in the light of the whole peace process and in the light of our history. Does anyone here honestly believe that these men should stay in prison at the cost of the peace process in the north?

Because thats what I believe the cost will be.

The same can be said for photographs. Here we have a situation where republicans are asked to lay down arms and engage a peace process. Im sorry for the Gandi's out there, but the fact of the matter is the north can always return to violence (and probably will at some stage) if we cannot establish a representative and fair society pronto.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Explain to me how a country can move from conflict to peace without dealing with the people involved in the conflict!! Jesus Christ man!

But its not a whole country Mighty_Mouse, it never was.
It was always a tiny minority with very little support on the island who were involved.

oscarBravo

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

The agreement say all political prisoners before 98.

No, damnit, it doesn't. Nowhere. Not once in the entire text of the agreement - read it! - is there a single mention of "political prisoners".

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

IMO these men were IRA men i.e. political prisoners and therefore are entitled to release.Full stop. It's not nice but it's what I agreed to when I voted for the GFA.

Neither you, I or anyone else agreed to anything whatsoever to do with "political prisoners" when we voted for the GFA, because it doesn't mention them.

FTA69

To be specific it mentions members of groups currently on ceasefire who have committed an offense prior to 1998. In other words, political prisoners. Which like it or not oscar, is what they are.

spongebob

FTA69 wrote:

To be specific it mentions members of groups currently on ceasefire who have committed an offense prior to 1998. In other words, political prisoners. Which like it or not oscar, is what they are.

I see that Sinn Féin policy is that ceasefires 1994-1998 are different to ceasefires 1998-2004.

Can you clarify further FTA please, I'd like straight answers to the following for starters

1. What is a ceasefire
2. What is a ceasefire
3. What is a ceasefire
4. Can we believe the IRA

M

Poker_Peter

Originally posted by MightyMouse
Again, the obvious question........if it was AGREED, why did they not put it in the AGREEMENT?

Can somebody here explain?

As for whether they were IRA prisoners or not. I don't remember anybody saying they actually weren't "IRA scum" before the agreement.[/I]

Well if they were paramiliatary prisoners then I would say the prisoner release provisions of the GFA apply to them. It is interesting that a few years ago the Government I think were saying that the GFA only applied to prisoners sentenced before the GFA was passed, even though the British Government continued releasing prisoners sentenced afterwards. There needs to be consistency here between how the 2 governments implement the agreement before Souther politicians start trying to score political points by arguing the GFA doesn't cover the McCabe killers.

cdebru

Muck wrote:

I see that Sinn Féin policy is that ceasefires 1994-1998 are different to ceasefires 1998-2004.

Can you clarify further FTA please, I'd like straight answers to the following for starters

1. What is a ceasefire
2. What is a ceasefire
3. What is a ceasefire
4. Can we believe the IRA

M

The IRA were not on ceasefire when Garda Mccabe was killed

can you believe anyone that is a judgement call
I would not believe everything the iRA says nor would i suggest that blanket disbelieve is a good idea

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

No, damnit, it doesn't. Nowhere. Not once in the entire text of the agreement - read it! - is there a single mention of "political prisoners". Neither you, I or anyone else agreed to anything whatsoever to do with "political prisoners" when we voted for the GFA, because it doesn't mention them.

your right it does not say political prisioners

however it does say prisioners belonging to groups maintaining a ceasefire who were convicted of scheduled offences in the north or the equivalent in the south
prior to the GFA

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

The IRA were not on ceasefire when Garda Mccabe was killed

I stand corrected

M

cdebru

Muck wrote:

I stand corrected

M

not to worry it is a common misconception that Fine Gael continue to spout in the media without any check

Sand

however it does say prisioners belonging to groups maintaining a ceasefire who were convicted of scheduled offences in the north or the equivalent in the south

Important phrase there is scheduled offences. You accepted that previously when you from your highest horse decried any attempt to consider child abuse as a scheduled offence as being sick or word to that effect - though allowances have to be made for balaclaved men beating 14 year old children with iron bars to within an inch of their life. That isnt child abuse obviously if youre in the IRA.

But a bank robbery and murder arent scheduled offences because theyre armed robbery and murder. To be schedule offences they have to be committed by terrorists in the pursuit of some terrorist cause. The IRA denied even knowing who these scumbags were, let alone sanctioning the robbery. Now there are two explanations - the IRA is some anarchic flag of convenience for crinimals to wrap themselves in the flag - or this robbery wasnt carried out at the behest of the IRA and thus isnt a scheduled offence. Or there is a third, P O Neill has a tendency to rabbit off to the press without checking his facts first. Given your hilarious rundown on IRA SOP Im sure this will be your preferred avenue of defence for the CastleRa scumbags.

The GFA doesnt cover the adare killers because being a member of the IRA isnt enough to grant you immunity from crime. End of. Though I dont expect you to reply, because the last time I pointed this out you got all quiet and retiring.

spongebob

Is Bird Watching in Columbia on the schedule Sand ?

M

cdebru

Sand wrote:

Important phrase there is scheduled offences. You accepted that previously when you from your highest horse decried any attempt to consider child abuse as a scheduled offence as being sick or word to that effect - though allowances have to be made for balaclaved men beating 14 year old children with iron bars to within an inch of their life. That isnt child abuse obviously if youre in the IRA.

But a bank robbery and murder arent scheduled offences because theyre armed robbery and murder. To be schedule offences they have to be committed by terrorists in the pursuit of some terrorist cause. The IRA denied even knowing who these scumbags were, let alone sanctioning the robbery. Now there are two explanations - the IRA is some anarchic flag of convenience for crinimals to wrap themselves in the flag - or this robbery wasnt carried out at the behest of the IRA and thus isnt a scheduled offence. Or there is a third, P O Neill has a tendency to rabbit off to the press without checking his facts first. Given your hilarious rundown on IRA SOP Im sure this will be your preferred avenue of defence for the CastleRa scumbags.

The GFA doesnt cover the adare killers because being a member of the IRA isnt enough to grant you immunity from crime. End of. Though I dont expect you to reply, because the last time I pointed this out you got all quiet and retiring.

dont let the facts get in your way
"
[font=verdana, arial]In Northern Ireland judges can sometimes sit alone in 'diplock' court. The diplock court is used when the offence that has been committed is listed as a scheduled offence under Schedule One of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996. These were introduced in an attempt to prevent terrorist intimidation of jurors. [/font]


[font=verdana, arial]Scheduled offences are the main types of offences associated with terrorism - murder, attempted murder, assault, hijacking, robbery and firearms offences. [/font]


[font=verdana, arial]If a scheduled offence is committed but not as an act of terrorism, the DPP may issue a certificate de-scheduling it and the trial will continue in the normal way." [/font]
[font=verdana, arial] [/font]
[font=verdana, arial] [/font]
[font=verdana, arial]now there are no shceduled offences in the 26 counties the act refers to the equivalent[/font]
[font=verdana, arial]ie those tried in the special criminal court[/font]

No i wasn't shy and retiring it just gets bloody boring answering the same question day after day especially since you are never going to believe it.

i never said that membership was the only qualifying criteria

you have to have been convicted of a scheduled or equivalent offence and be a member of a group maintaining a ceasefire
look we have gone over this time and time again its just boring there was no deal so they are not getting out when and if there is a deal they will be released even if enda kenny is taioseach god help us

billy the squid

you have to have been convicted of a scheduled or equivalent offence and be a member of a group maintaining a ceasefire
look we have gone over this time and time again its just boring there was no deal so they are not getting out when and if there is a deal they will be released even if enda kenny is taioseach god help us

if FG stick to their promise to keep these thugs locked up then it is just another reason to vote for them at the next election

true

if FG stick to their promise to keep these thugs locked up then it is just another reason to vote for them at the next election

Well said. There is a great groundswell of opinion that it is time that we stood up to the IRA. We were soft on them for too long, and look what they done.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

To be specific it mentions members of groups currently on ceasefire who have committed an offense prior to 1998. In other words, political prisoners. Which like it or not oscar, is what they are.

political prisoner
n. A person who has been imprisoned for holding or advocating dissenting political views.

What they are, FTA, is terrorists and criminals.

Cork

true wrote:

We were soft on them for too long, and look what they done.

We have been far too soft on SF for far too long. We accept bland assurances from SF that republicans are not involved in criminality. We seem not too bothered about survalance on democratically elected TDs.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

. We seem not too bothered about survalance on democratically elected TDs.

I take you are including the 5 TDs whose every move is under surveillance?

billy the squid

It is common practice for any police force to survey the associates of suspects of criminal activity, just because some criminal's buddy is a TD does not exclude that TD from being watched also.

and besides, The gardai are not surveying these TDs with the intent of doing them or their families any physical harm.

cdebru

true wrote:

if FG stick to their promise to keep these thugs locked up then it is just another reason to vote for them at the next election

Well said. There is a great groundswell of opinion that it is time that we stood up to the IRA. We were soft on them for too long, and look what they done.

Except the reality is that Fine Gael if in power would do the exact same as what FF/PD are doing now.
They are simply playing politics with this issue.The proof of this is that if they really cared about Garda McCabes widow they would not have asked the question to which they already knew the answer in the forum they did ask it.

Sand

ie those tried in the special criminal court

Actually, the Special Crinimal Court doesnt deal with "scheduled offences" alone, but any trial where it is considered jurorers are at risk of being intimidated/coerced - a belief that was bourne out. As such, just because a trial is held in the Special Crinimal Court does not make the offence in question a scheduled offence. As youll recall, another scumbag known as Gilligan was tried by Special Crinimal Court. Whilst that drug dealing scum may be the moral equivalent of the Adare killers that doesnt mean Gilligan also committed his crimes for some terrorist cause, does it?

No i wasn't shy and retiring it just gets bloody boring answering the same question day after day especially since you are never going to believe it.

Why should I? Your stated opinion is rubbish. The grounds for considering this a scheduled offence are extremely poor, and amount to little more than wishful thinking. The archived link I noted above also mentions Bertie Ahern swearing to the Irish public that the Adare killers wont be covered under the GFA, which indicates he believed acceptance of the GFA would hinge on that - otherwise why lock himself into that position? The GFA doesnt cover them, either in theory or reality.

cdebru

Sand wrote:

Actually, the Special Crinimal Court doesnt deal with "scheduled offences" alone, but any trial where it is considered jurorers are at risk of being intimidated/coerced - a belief that was bourne out. As such, just because a trial is held in the Special Crinimal Court does not make the offence in question a scheduled offence. As youll recall, another scumbag known as Gilligan was tried by Special Crinimal Court. Whilst that drug dealing scum may be the moral equivalent of the Adare killers that doesnt mean Gilligan also committed his crimes for some terrorist cause, does it?.

actually there are no scheduled offences in the 26 counties

the GFA refers to the equivalent of scheduled offences the equivalent would be people convicted in the special criminal court of offences similiar to scheduled offences in the North
of course they also have to be a member of a recognised group maintaining a recognised ceasefire.
so that rules out criminals such as gilligan I would have tought that was obvious and did not need to be pointed out

Sand wrote:

Why should I? Your stated opinion is rubbish. The grounds for considering this a scheduled offence are extremely poor, and amount to little more than wishful thinking. The archived link I noted above also mentions Bertie Ahern swearing to the Irish public that the Adare killers wont be covered under the GFA, which indicates he believed acceptance of the GFA would hinge on that - otherwise why lock himself into that position? The GFA doesnt cover them, either in theory or reality.

If that is so then why to save any confusion was that one event not mentioned in the GFA as being specifically not covered by the GFA
what we voted on was the wording of the GFA not what Ahern Adams Trimble
Blair or Paisley said it meant or would wish it meant
the GFA can not be changed by one party to the agreement after it had been negotiated

I dont think it was a scheduled offence as there is no such thing in the 26 counties
but it is the equivalent of a scheduled offence in the North
ie they were charged with murder and attempted armed robbery and possesion of illegal firearms.(convicted of manslaughter)
all are scheduled offences in the 6 counties
they were tried in a non jury court as they would have been in the 6 counties
all are acknowledged members of an organisation which is maintaining a recognised ceasefire.
the events for which they were convicted took place before the GFA and while the IRA was not on ceasefire.

whether you think my opinion is rubbish or not I couldn't give a flying **** what you think

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

what we voted on was the wording of the GFA not what Ahern Adams Trimble
Blair or Paisley said it meant or would wish it meant

OK, so. I'd like you to demonstrate conclusively that these men are covered by the Agreement. You can quote from the text of the Agreement itself, or from any of the directly relevant acts of Parliament or Oireachtas. No interpretations please, just facts.

When you've done that, I'd like to see you reconcile it with the fact - as you've pointed out yourself - that any prisoner's release under the GFA is at the discretion of the Minister for Justice.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

that any prisoner's release under the GFA is at the discretion of the Minister for Justice.

AFAIK, the Minister has decided to release these men under the GFA

Cork

I think the DUP and SF won't be compromising any time soon. This is what you get when hard liners are elected.

Those convicted in relation to the McCabe muder will not be released untill agreement is reached.

After the Belfast Bank rais - the Irish government will insist that the IRA will gaurentee it will not be involved in criminality.

I personally - would like to see these men serve their full sentences & as SF/IRA & the DUP are quibbling over issues like criminality and a few photographs - this will probably be the case.

These people will not compromise before the UK election - these 3 will not be released any time soon.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

OK, so. I'd like you to demonstrate conclusively that these men are covered by the Agreement. You can quote from the text of the Agreement itself, or from any of the directly relevant acts of Parliament or Oireachtas. No interpretations please, just facts.

When you've done that, I'd like to see you reconcile it with the fact - as you've pointed out yourself - that any prisoner's release under the GFA is at the discretion of the Minister for Justice.

it has already been proven by the high court and later the supreme court that these men meet the crtieria for release under the GFA
However under the legislation enacted by leinster house to give affect to the prisoner release section of the GFA the release of any prisoner is at the discretion of the minister of justice.This discretion is derived from legislation enacted by leinster house not from the GFA.
that is the whole point now the minister of justice is going to use his discretion if there is an overall agreement.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

I think the DUP and SF won't be compromising any time soon. This is what you get when hard liners are elected.

Those convicted in relation to the McCabe muder will not be released untill agreement is reached.

After the Belfast Bank rais - the Irish government will insist that the IRA will gaurentee it will not be involved in criminality.

I personally - would like to see these men serve their full sentences & as SF/IRA & the DUP are quibbling over issues like criminality and a few photographs - this will probably be the case.

These people will not compromise before the UK election - these 3 will not be released any time soon.

yeah I cant see them being released in the short term but once an agreement is reached presuming they have not finished their sentences by then
they will be released no matter who is in government even if it is FG (god help us)

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

the release of any prisoner is at the discretion of the minister of justice.This discretion is derived from legislation enacted by leinster house not from the GFA.

The legislation forms part of the implementation of the GFA. The Agreement is a framework for enabling legislation.

cdebru wrote:

that is the whole point now the minister of justice is going to use his discretion if there is an overall agreement.

I'll be outraged if he does, and I'm not alone in that.

I'm not going to argue this any further. I'm sick to my stomach at murdering criminal thugs holding a peace process to ransom (having already gotten away with murder); I'm sick of two-faced politicians betraying the people they're supposed to represent; and most of all I'm sick of apologists glossing over the realities of violent crime, terrorism and murder for a so-called political agenda.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

. I'll be outraged if he does, and I'm not alone in that.

.

No your not alone but that is the way it it is

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

No your not alone but that is the way it it is

If these scumbags are released then every tom dick and harry in portlaoise prison will be entitled to release under this agreement.