Ahern does McCabe Killers U-Turn

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

two questions.

Was blowing up that pub in birmingham necessary, especially when it was packed with people who were only only out having a drink. could they not keep their trigger happy little hands off it until at least it was empty if, as you say, the target was infrastructural rather than civilian.

other question is, and I mean no offence, but are you a "volunteer"

and there are many amongst the brittish establishment that will tell you that bloody sunday was a mistake but that has little to do with five men robbing a bank in Co Limerick.

No a chara, I am not an IRA Volunteer and if I was do you think I'd be telling a faceless individual unbeknownst to me on a public internet forum? I am however, a member of Sinn Féin.

Regards the pub bombings, the bomb in Birmingham was aimed at British soldiers who regularly frequented the pub. By stating this I am not attempting to justify the bomb, I am clarifying the intention behind it. Needless to say, it was a crude and bungled attack that had an unjustifiable risk to civilian life attached to it. It was a mistake.

Regards Bloody Sunday, I don't where that came out of as I never mentioned it, I was refferring to the SAS shoot-to-kill policy in Ireland. Besides, you are the one who brought up the IRA's military designation, not me. If you want to keep the discussion about prisoner release that's fine.

gandalf

Poblachtach wrote:

Canary Wharf was a very effective bomb.

I am sure the families of the two innocents murdered by that act would agree with you wholeheartedly :rolleyes:

Out of curiousity what age are you?

FTA69

They weren't murdered, they were killed accidentally as a result of a bomb exploding in an economic target in which an appropriate warning was given. Civilians death is an awful thing, but what do you expect people to do? Surrender because of it? Should the Republican side in the Spanish civil war have thrown in the towel because to oppose Franco would have led to casualties among the innocent? Blame the situation that caused the war in the first place instead of simply selecting a microcosm of the conflict and ignoring the politics surrounding it.

gandalf

What actually interests me is that it appears these "Freedom Fighters" carried out this Bank Raid without the sanction of their Chuckie masters. Therefore it was them doing this as individuals using IRA property to carry out this illegal (both in the terms of the law of the Republic and the so-called IRA laws as well) act, yet they are being supported and campaigned for by Sinn Fein.

Now if they cannot keep to their own laws how the hell can we expect them to keep to ours.

Then again these types have shown their true colours here using terms like Freestaters its quite obvious that they feel our laws do not apply to them when it doesn't suit their needs.

You mention decommissioning to them and they constantly whinge about "loyalist this loyalist that" or "British Army this or British Army that", keep your end of the agreement and put your arms out of use and if the other sides do not keep their side of the bargain you will have the high moral ground and they will be forced to comply. As for looking for the early release of these men I suggest you give that up as well, they went outside the law for both the Republic and the IRA, let them rot they will be out soon anyway.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

Blame the situation that caused the war in the first place instead of simply selecting a microcosm of the conflict and ignoring the politics surrounding it.

Problem with that logic though, is that if you go down to the nitty gritty and had asked the people of Ireland at the time, did they want to blow Britain asunder,or anybody for that matter they would have said no.
For obvious reasons they were never asked.Irish people gave their mandate to politicians that were and still are firmly against the IRA campaign.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

They weren't murdered, they were killed accidentally as a result of a bomb exploding in an economic target in which an appropriate warning was given.

Sorry your idea of an accidential death is totally and utterly warped !!!

Maybe in your view these two dead peddlers of Newpapers was a victory against the propaganda of the tabloids.

A bomb was placed and people were killed because of it directly, they were murdered plain and simple.

Civilians death is an awful thing, but what do you expect people to do?

Ah not to explode bombs in areas where cilivians, schoolkids, INNOCENTS can get killed would be a good start !!

Surrender because of it?

Maybe they should have heeded the wish of the majority of people in Ireland and gone to the negotiation table around then insteard of having "one last fling".

Should the Republican side in the Spanish civil war have thrown in the towel because to oppose Franco would have led to casualties among the innocent?

Irrelevant we are talking about Ireland and the situation here not the Spanish Civil War.

Blame the situation that caused the war in the first place instead of simply selecting a microcosm of the conflict and ignoring the politics surrounding it.

Typical response from a Republican sympathiser, or any of the so-called sympathisers from up North, "It’s not our fault we blew some one up it’s the situations". Never take responsibilities for their actions!

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

Regards the pub bombings, the bomb in Birmingham was aimed at British soldiers who regularly frequented the pub. By stating this I am not attempting to justify the bomb, I am clarifying the intention behind it. Needless to say, it was a crude and bungled attack that had an unjustifiable risk to civilian life attached to it. It was a mistake.

It was a mistake that SF/IRA leant little from.

Just as today. little concern is being shown for the victims of violence.

Linking its websites to online stores for 'Sniper at Work' and other IRA paraphernalia is also wrong.

Giving those who where involved in the murder of a Garda in Adare early release is wrong & what now of the proceeds of such activity?

As part of a comprehensive settlement - What is to become of this loot?

Are they going to hand it over to the state or are the IRA going to devide the spoils among their supporters?

What is the SF position? Maybe along with the politics or condemnation - they may wish not to comment.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

What actually interests me is that it appears these "Freedom Fighters" carried out this Bank Raid without the sanction of their Chuckie masters.


You mention decommissioning to them and they constantly whinge about "loyalist this loyalist that" or "British Army this or British Army that",

How do you know what orders were given within the IRA and what orders were not? The IRA have claimed the operation was unsanctioned, but they also recognised the Volunteers were IRA members using IRA equipment and as such the IRA were responsible for them. They almost immediately came under the auspices of the Republian Movement through the prisoners' support group Coiste na hÍarmhicí.

Regards decommisioning, continued UVF pogroms and attacks should not be dismissed as "Loyalist this and Loyalist that", neither should the continued British Army activity eg helicopters and patrols through peoples' gardens that effects peoples' lives adversely. They may seem a non-issue to you but to many they are of the utmost urgency and the removal of racist death squads and the repatriation of an occupying army are of more importance than IRA decommisioning.

FTA69

Cork wrote:

What is to become of this loot?

Are they going to hand it over to the state or are the IRA going to devide the spoils among their supporters?

What is the SF position? Maybe along with the politics or condemnation - they may wish not to comment.

It was seized by the police, who probably divided a lot of it between themselves so put your question to them.

BuffyBot

are the British Army not then considered an army owing to the fact plain clothes SAS soldiers riddled unarmed combatants without warning

It's a simplistic notion, but none the less holds a lot of water: Two wrongs do not make a right.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

How do you know what orders were given within the IRA and what orders were not? The IRA have claimed the operation was unsanctioned, but they also recognised the Volunteers were IRA members using IRA equipment and as such the IRA were responsible for them. They almost immediately came under the auspices of the Republian Movement through the prisoners' support group Coiste na hÍarmhicí.

So you are saying that eventhough they carried out an illegal operation with weapons taken without authorisation they will still get the support of the IRA. Interesting value set there. Then again what do you expect from an organisation thats main purpose these days is to smuggle, carry out protection rackets and beat people it doesn't agree with.

Regards decommisioning, continued UVF pogroms and attacks should not be dismissed as "Loyalist this and Loyalist that", neither should the continued British Army activity eg helicopters and patrols through peoples' gardens that effects peoples' lives adversely. They may seem a non-issue to you but to many they are of the utmost urgency and the removal of racist death squads and the repatriation of an occupying army are of more importance than IRA decommisioning.

How did I know you were going to say that, the people most at risk at the moment from the loyalist death squads are the loyalists themselves.

As for the British Army, the UK Government are just itching to get them out of there to reduce their costs further.

Oh and kneecapping and punishment beatings effects peoples lives adversely as well :rolleyes:

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

Ah not to explode bombs in areas where cilivians, schoolkids, INNOCENTS can get killed would be a good start !!



Maybe they should have heeded the wish of the majority of people in Ireland and gone to the negotiation table around then insteard of having "one last fling".



Irrelevant we are talking about Ireland and the situation here not the Spanish Civil War.



Typical response from a Republican sympathiser, or any of the so-called sympathisers from up North, "It’s not our fault we blew some one up it’s the situations". Never take responsibilities for their actions!

As I said, during the course of a war civilians are going to be killed, that inevitable consequence does not undermine the legitimacy of the cause being fought for in my opinion. That was the root of my analogy regarding Spain, that even though your cause is justified do civilian deaths make it wrong?

Regards negotiating etc, the IRA declared a cessation in 1994 which was a brave attempt to initiate a meaningful discussion and negotiation of a deal that could secure a lasting peace in Ireland. Republicans were instead presented with a list of impossible hurdles they had to complete (with no British reciprocation) before they could even be included in talks of any substance. That was an unacceptable position on the part of the Conservative government and as such the IRA were forced to end their cessation.

Taking responsiblity for our actions? We have been doing that for years a chara, tens of thousands of years in prison and many deaths have been suffered by Republicans over the years, we of all people know the consequences of a war. Besides, the IRA did apologise to all innocent civilians who died as a result of their actions over the years.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

So you are saying that eventhough they carried out an illegal operation with weapons taken without authorisation they will still get the support of the IRA. Interesting value set there. Then again what do you expect from an organisation thats main purpose these days is to smuggle, carry out protection rackets and beat people it doesn't agree with.

How did I know you were going to say that, the people most at risk at the moment from the loyalist death squads are the loyalists themselves.

As for the British Army, the UK Government are just itching to get them out of there to reduce their costs further.

Oh and kneecapping and punishment beatings effects peoples lives adversely as well :rolleyes:

Carried out an "illegal operation", both the Free State and the brits consider the IRA's very existance "illegal", therefore any operation carried out by them is judged by the above to be "illegal". The IRA has never worked in those constraints so the Adare incident is not contrary to any historical precedent. Many IRA operations are planned and executed at local level without above "authourisation", it doesn't make it less of an IRA operation though.

Regards Loyalists, I'm sure the young man hacked to death by the UDA a few months back share your opinion, as would the family of Gerard Lawlor who was killed for wearing a Celtic jersey... :rolleyes:

Regards punishment activity, it affects the lives of thugs, death riders and drug-dealers adversely and as such I say GOOD! Curtailing crime and anti-social behaviour in a vacuum with no police force is not akin to disrupting and lowering the quality of innocent peoples' lives.

marco murphy

The ''Police'' force is an insult anyway.
Going round taking down irish flags,when clearly,UVF flags and worse are on chimney tops.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

Carried out an "illegal operation", both the Free State and the brits consider the IRA's very existance "illegal", therefore any operation carried out by them is judged by the above to be "illegal". The IRA has never worked in those constraints so the Adare incident is not contrary to any historical precedent. Many IRA operations are planned and executed at local level without above "authourisation", it doesn't make it less of an IRA operation though.

Actually I meant "illegal operation" in terms of the IRA, nothing to do with the Irish Republic which we live in or the British. But judging from the rest of your explaination there are no real controls over the IRA at all. For a so called military organisation its all very haphazard, it seems to follow a more mafioso model, which is very apt as these days that is all they are. They have nothing in common with the heroes of 1916 at all.

Regards Loyalists, I'm sure the young man hacked to death by the UDA a few months back share your opinion, as would the family of Gerard Lawlor who was killed for wearing a Celtic jersey... :rolleyes:

Well the numbers are down an awful lot on previous years, no more tit for tat killings. Then again if Sinn Fein and the IRA allowed Nationalists to take part in the Police Force without fear of intimidation then things could be sorted alot quicker.

Regards punishment activity, it affects the lives of thugs, death riders and drug-dealers adversely and as such I say GOOD! Curtailing crime and anti-social behaviour in a vacuum with no police force is not akin to disrupting and lowering the quality of innocent peoples' lives.

You see heres where your logic breaks down again. Consider most of those carrying out these so-called "justice" acts are in themselves thugs who in reality are answerable to no one then this cannot be called justice. Maybe allowing your people take part and change the Police Force from within as I have suggested above is the best answer.

Then again your endorsement of these kind of actions really says an awful lot about you.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

As I said, during the course of a war civilians are going to be killed, that inevitable consequence does not undermine the legitimacy of the cause being fought for in my opinion. That was the root of my analogy regarding Spain, that even though your cause is justified do civilian deaths make it wrong?

We are not going to agree on casulties but I am sure you would even question the riddling of two gardai in their car with an AK47. The cause is not legitimate imho as the majority of the Irish People have been against the violence.

Regards negotiating etc, the IRA declared a cessation in 1994 which was a brave attempt to initiate a meaningful discussion and negotiation of a deal that could secure a lasting peace in Ireland. Republicans were instead presented with a list of impossible hurdles they had to complete (with no British reciprocation) before they could even be included in talks of any substance. That was an unacceptable position on the part of the Conservative government and as such the IRA were forced to end their cessation.

So can we expect the same "ticking toys out the pram attitude" when Sinn Fein don't get their way here in the "Freestate" as well :rolleyes:

Taking responsiblity for our actions? We have been doing that for years a chara, tens of thousands of years in prison and many deaths have been suffered by Republicans over the years, we of all people know the consequences of a war. Besides, the IRA did apologise to all innocent civilians who died as a result of their actions over the years.

One thing do not call me your friend for that I am not!

They served time for crimes and rightly so. The majority of these men have besmirched the good name of republicanism with actions in some cases were just as bad as those of the "loyalist death squads" you keep harping on about.

Yes an apology brings back someones father, mother, son, daughter, husband, wife. Everything is ok again :rolleyes:

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

Actually I meant "illegal operation" in terms of the IRA, nothing to do with the Irish Republic which we live in or the British. But judging from the rest of your explaination there are no real controls over the IRA at all. For a so called military organisation its all very haphazard, it seems to follow a more mafioso model, which is very apt as these days that is all they are. They have nothing in common with the heroes of 1916 at all.


Well the numbers are down an awful lot on previous years, no more tit for tat killings. Then again if Sinn Fein and the IRA allowed Nationalists to take part in the Police Force without fear of intimidation then things could be sorted alot quicker.


You see heres where your logic breaks down again. Consider most of those carrying out these so-called "justice" acts are in themselves thugs who in reality are answerable to no one then this cannot be called justice. Maybe allowing your people take part and change the Police Force from within as I have suggested above is the best answer.

Then again your endorsement of these kind of actions really says an awful lot about you.

The IRA is nothing like the Mafia in any sense at all, would a mafioso starve himself to death for an ideal? Or dedicate his life to a cause for which he was prepared to die or be killed? Save your snyde comparisons, they are entirely devoid of any logic whatsoever. The IRA is a guerilla army with an organised structure and leadership but the nature of guerilla war dictates that operations sometimes have to be carried out or provided for on a local level.

Regards Loyalist killings, just because sectarian killing is down from previous years doesn't mean it is a non-issue or that the UVF/LVF/UDA do not remain a potent threat. The UDA broke their British government-recognised ceasefire after a week, the continued pogroms over the past few years, months and weeks also speak for themselves.

Regards punishment activity, they are not undertaken by "thugs", it seems you suscribe to the tabloid-fuelled stereotype of skinheads foaming at the mouth etc. Do you even know any IRA Volunteers? These actions occur as a result of necessity and as a result of communities calling on the IRA to act on drugs and anti-social behaviour. The IRA is the only thing preventing places like Belfast from developing a similar heroin scourge to Dublin, and people are thankful for it.

Regards policing, the PSNI remains unacceptable to Nationalists as it is simply the old RUC with a shiny new uniform. Do you honestly expect people to join a para-military force that remains in collusion at local level with Loyalist death-squads who are still killing? This is the same force that beat Paul Devenney (an innocent member of the public) into a coma in the Short Strand 18 months ago while they were facilitating a UVF mob descending on the area. Policing in the 6 Counties still serves the state as opposed to the people (a huge difference) and until the reforms outlined by Patten are introduced we will not encourage anyone to take part in it. It is rotten to the core.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

We are not going to agree on casulties but I am sure you would even question the riddling of two gardai in their car with an AK47. The cause is not legitimate imho as the majority of the Irish People have been against the violence.

They served time for crimes and rightly so. The majority of these men have besmirched the good name of republicanism with actions in some cases were just as bad as those of the "loyalist death squads" you keep harping on about.

Yes an apology brings back someones father, mother, son, daughter, husband, wife. Everything is ok again :rolleyes:

The killing of McCabe was a mistake but so was many other incidents that occured throughout the war, we had to suffer the release of Lee Clegg and Michael Stone, what makes Ann McCabe any different?

You might turn your nose up at an apology, that is your opinion but remember that we are in a new era of Irish politics where peace and reconciliation are supposed to be paramount. The IRA were right to apologise for the civilians they killed and the British Army are wrong to have not apologised for the innocent people they killed throughout the war.

Regards Loyalists, again we see you dissmiss them as somehow irrelevant when they have killed hundreds of people in the past and remain to do so. Maybe if you had actual experiance of them you wouldn't be so flippant.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

The IRA is nothing like the Mafia in any sense at all, would a mafioso starve himself to death for an ideal? Or dedicate his life to a cause for which he was prepared to die or be killed? Save your snyde comparisons, they are entirely devoid of any logic whatsoever. The IRA is a guerilla army with an organised structure and leadership but the nature of guerilla war dictates that operations sometimes have to be carried out or provided for on a local level.

Devoid of any logic LOL !! If it looks like a criminal, talks like a criminal and acts like a criminal therefore there is a very high probability that it is ! As for the Mafioso comment, well the are involved in smuggling and protection rackets like the Mafia. Their only saving grace is they haven't gotten involved in drugs unlike the Loyalists and INLA, so far.

Regards Loyalist killings, just because sectarian killing is down from previous years doesn't mean it is a non-issue or that the UVF/LVF/UDA do not remain a potent threat. The UDA broke their British government-recognised ceasefire after a week, the continued pogroms over the past few years, months and weeks also speak for themselves.

Well then all the more reason for the IRA to carry out their side of the bargain and move the pressure on the British to carry out their side of the agreement. Do you really think the British want to pump the millions, billions into NI, they want to be shut of there asap unless there is a secret pile of Natural Resources they have hidden from us all.

Regards punishment activity, they are not undertaken by "thugs", it seems you suscribe to the tabloid-fuelled stereotype of skinheads foaming at the mouth etc. Do you even know any IRA Volunteers? These actions occur as a result of necessity and as a result of communities calling on the IRA to act on drugs and anti-social behaviour. The IRA is the only thing preventing places like Belfast from developing a similar heroin scourge to Dublin, and people are thankful for it.

Well actually I form my opinions myself as I do not read tabloids. Anyone the blows someones kneecaps off no matter what their crime is scum, anyone that beats another human being with a studded baseball bat is a thug of the lowest order.

No I don't know any IRA Volunteers I thought they kept their identities secret, why is it "adopt an IRA Hero week?

Regards policing, the PSNI remains unacceptable to Nationalists as it is simply the old RUC with a shiny new uniform. Do you honestly expect people to join a para-military force that remains in collusion at local level with Loyalist death-squads who are still killing? This is the same force that beat Paul Devenney (an innocent member of the public) into a coma in the Short Strand 18 months ago while they were facilitating a UVF mob descending on the area. Policing in the 6 Counties still serves the state as opposed to the people (a huge difference) and until the reforms outlined by Patten are introduced we will not encourage anyone to take part in it. It is rotten to the core.

Well the main reason it remains unacceptable is because the Chuckie Mafia says it is. The only way you will change the police force is by allowing the Nationalist community engage with it fully something that I am sure they cannot do at the moment.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

Devoid of any logic LOL !! If it looks like a criminal, talks like a criminal and acts like a criminal therefore there is a very high probability that it is ! As for the Mafioso comment, well the are involved in smuggling and protection rackets like the Mafia. Their only saving grace is they haven't gotten involved in drugs unlike the Loyalists and INLA, so far.

Well actually I form my opinions myself as I do not read tabloids. Anyone the blows someones kneecaps off no matter what their crime is scum, anyone that beats another human being with a studded baseball bat is a thug of the lowest order.

No I don't know any IRA Volunteers I thought they kept their identities secret, why is it "adopt an IRA Hero week?

Well the main reason it remains unacceptable is because the Chuckie Mafia says it is. The only way you will change the police force is by allowing the Nationalist community engage with it fully something that I am sure they cannot do at the moment.

To address a point you made in a previous point, you stated the IRA campaign was unjustified because the "majority opposed their violence" but you then reffered to those who fought in 1916 as "heroes". The vast majority of the Irish people disproved of the Rising when it occured and the Volunteers who fought in it were even stoned by members of the Dublin public. Out of curiosity, how to you resolve that contradiction in your argument?

Regards criminality, a criminal is one who commits a deed for personal gain. Robbing a bank or smuggling petrol for use in a political movement is not a "crime" and both the Free State and British governments acknowledge that by recognising the right of Republican prisoners (even those convicted of robbery) to political status. Regards the INLA, unsavoury people were part of that movement in the past but I believe that is well behind them by this stage. However, I am not a member of either the INLA or the IRSP and am not 100% sure on anything I heard about them.

Regards the concept of "thuggery", much worse injuries have been inflicted on people throughout politically unstable situations in the past. The actions undertaken by the IRA are the only options available to them, they can hardly imprison people can they? Out of curiosity, do you condemn those who engaged in the same activity during the War of Independence? What penalties to you think the Sinn Féin courts imposed on people back then? HINT; it wasn't community service!

IRA Volunteers and ex-POWs are an important part of many communities and while it is an underground army it is not so clandestine as to where people haven't a clue who's who.

Finally, just because people of a Nationalist persuasion join the PSNI/RUC doesn't mean the force will somehow change. The raison d'etre of policing in the Six Counties is to serve the state against Republicans, not to serve the people against crime. The whole ethos of policing has to be changed before any real difference can be made and that can only come about with the full implementation of the Patten reforms, something which the brits, and only the brits can do. Once this has been performed Nationalists can be encouraged to join the police, any less than the above all we will have is more Nationalists in a rotten police force, and that will serve nobody's interest except those in MI5.

BuffyBot

Regards criminality, a criminal is one who commits a deed for personal gain

Actually, a criminal is one who commits a crime. Full stop intentional.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

To address a point you made in a previous point, you stated the IRA campaign was unjustified because the "majority opposed their violence" but you then reffered to those who fought in 1916 as "heroes". The vast majority of the Irish people disproved of the Rising when it occured and the Volunteers who fought in it were even stoned by members of the Dublin public. Out of curiosity, how to you resolve that contradiction in your argument?

Quite simply actually. Initially they did not have the backing of the Irish people but right after the executions in Kilmainham peoples opinions changed and the country was awoken that Ireland had been promised Home Rule by 1914 which hadn't happened (the excuse was WW1) and when people saw that Irishmen were good enough to be fed to the cannon in the Somme but not good enough to have Home Rule something snapped. Also I do not remember reading that Padraig Pearse or the Volunteers shot women in the back of the head for "the cause", blew up school children or newspaper sellers. They were different men they stood up like men and fought like men. As did Collins and the IRA in the War of Independence. The men that died back then must be spinning in their graves with the actions of people who claim to be decendents of their ideals.

Regards criminality, a criminal is one who commits a deed for personal gain. Robbing a bank or smuggling petrol for use in a political movement is not a "crime" and both the Free State and British governments acknowledge that by recognising the right of Republican prisoners (even those convicted of robbery) to political status.

No last time I looked smuggling and robbery is a crime in THE IRISH REPUBLIC (that is our official name you know, use it or emigrate please!) or NI or Europe or most civilised countries in the world. Talk about deillusion of the highest order, what we are hearing now is because we have a cause we can do what we want. Not exactly the kind of people I want to see in government.

Regards the INLA, unsavoury people were part of that movement in the past but I believe that is well behind them by this stage. However, I am not a member of either the INLA or the IRSP and am not 100% sure on anything I heard about them.

I believe they are just as bad as they were. Weren't they involved in a little turf war here in Dublin back in 2001 where one of their number was killed.

Regards the concept of "thuggery", much worse injuries have been inflicted on people throughout politically unstable situations in the past. The actions undertaken by the IRA are the only options available to them, they can hardly imprison people can they? Out of curiosity, do you condemn those who engaged in the same activity during the War of Independence? What penalties to you think the Sinn Féin courts imposed on people back then? HINT; it wasn't community service!

Here you go again with the classic playground attitude "they did it in the past we should be allowed do it too" . Different times, different values they do not transfer to todays society, unless you and your ilk want to turn the clock back. Oh look that woman can talk in tongues burn her she is a witch.

IRA Volunteers and ex-POWs are an important part of many communities and while it is an underground army it is not so clandestine as to where people haven't a clue who's who.

Well they are an important part of communites also because people haven't got much choice about them being part of the community either. These people tend to force themselves upon the community. Then again without their "status" as a "hero" they in most cases have nothing else going for them.

Finally, just because people of a Nationalist persuasion join the PSNI/RUC doesn't mean the force will somehow change. The raison d'etre of policing in the Six Counties is to serve the state against Republicans, not to serve the people against crime. The whole ethos of policing has to be changed before any real difference can be made and that can only come about with the full implementation of the Patten reforms, something which the brits, and only the brits can do. Once this has been performed Nationalists can be encouraged to join the police, any less than the above all we will have is more Nationalists in a rotten police force, and that will serve nobody's interest except those in MI5.

All the more reason to get people into the organisation of the Police and change it from within. To the best of my knowledge the majority of Patton is being impliemented. Maybe you can give me details of the parts that aren't. Or are you looking for a separate police force? All I am seeing here is paranoid drivel but I am prepared to listen to you spell it out.

FTA69

BuffyBot wrote:

Actually, a criminal is one who commits a crime. Full stop intentional.

Nelson Mandela broke South African law numerous times, as did Martin Luther King? Were they criminals? The concept of criminality is far more complex than that of simply "breaking the law".

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

Nelson Mandela broke South African law numerous times, as did Martin Luther King? Were they criminals? The concept of criminality is far more complex than that of simply "breaking the law".

LOL how pathetic, what next pissing on Mother Theresa's grave maybe, then again if it had a Republican outcome I could see you argueing that the Holocaust was justfied.

As for criminality if you break the laws of this country, thats the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND (for example riddling a Garda with illegal rounds from an illegal gun while trying to gain control monies from a bank illegally) you should expect the full penalty of the law without a get out of jail quick card just cause your a member of club chuckie !

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

Quite simply actually. Initially they did not have the backing of the Irish people but right after the executions in Kilmainham peoples opinions changed and the country was awoken that Ireland had been promised Home Rule by 1914 which hadn't happened (the excuse was WW1) and when people saw that Irishmen were good enough to be fed to the cannon in the Somme but not good enough to have Home Rule something snapped. Also I do not remember reading that Padraig Pearse or the Volunteers shot women in the back of the head for "the cause", blew up school children or newspaper sellers. They were different men they stood up like men and fought like men. As did Collins and the IRA in the War of Independence. The men that died back then must be spinning in their graves with the actions of people who claim to be decendents of their ideals.

No last time I looked smuggling and robbery is a crime in THE IRISH REPUBLIC (that is our official name you know, use it or emigrate please!) or NI or Europe or most civilised countries in the world. Talk about deillusion of the highest order, what we are hearing now is because we have a cause we can do what we want. Not exactly the kind of people I want to see in government.


I believe they are just as bad as they were. Weren't they involved in a little turf war here in Dublin back in 2001 where one of their number was killed.

Here you go again with the classic playground attitude "they did it in the past we should be allowed do it too" . Different times, different values they do not transfer to todays society, unless you and your ilk want to turn the clock back. Oh look that woman can talk in tongues burn her she is a witch.


Well they are an important part of communites also because people haven't got much choice about them being part of the community either. These people tend to force themselves upon the community. Then again without their "status" as a "hero" they in most cases have nothing else going for them.


All the more reason to get people into the organisation of the Police and change it from within. To the best of my knowledge the majority of Patton is being impliemented. Maybe you can give me details of the parts that aren't. Or are you looking for a separate police force? All I am seeing here is paranoid drivel but I am prepared to listen to you spell it out.

Regards 1916, make no mistake, many civilians died throughout the course of the Rising, not only as a result of British shells but from misdirected machine gun and rifle fire from the Volunteers as well. They weren't firing water pistols at the British Army and as an inevitable consequence innocent people died as a result of their actions. The period in time after which the Rising was supported is inconsequential, the fact was that despite the wish of the vast majority of Irish people the Volunteers took it upon themselves to initiate a rebellion that cost many lives, both innocent and combatant. Republicans were right to do it then and they were right to do it agin in 1969.

Regards fund-raising, I never denied that it took place in either the Free State (whoops sorry, load up the repatriation boats!) or the 6 Counties. What I did say is that it was done to fund a political war of liberation and as such is not criminal. I also pointed out that the state which you support does not consider it such either owing to their recognition of political status.

Regards the INLA, I believe Paddy Bo Campbell was killed by a gang member wielding a sword during an INLA operation against a drug-dealer in Dublin, despite what 007 Paul Williams of the Sunday World says, it was not a "turf war".

Regards the War of Independence, you are the one who brought up the subject of 1916 heroes not me. I am simply telling you how your "heroes" operated back in their day, much the same way as the IRA of today. I'm only pointing out your own hypocrisy on the subject of punishment activity.

I also stated the IRA are part of their communties, this is not a case of Republicans "forcing themselves" on people gandalf, and now you are really sounding like a tabloid! People in Republican areas are not fools, they realise the role the Movement had in defending them and they support them as such. If the IRA are simply bullies who people are too afraid to challenge how come Sinn Féin record a massive vote in Republican strongholds? I suppose the ballot papers intimidate people as well do they? :rolleyes:

Regards policing, as I stated above, only the brits have the power to implement Patten, it will not come about as a result of Nationalist participating and the fact the Stoop Down Low Party are willing to accept the meagre changes made undermines the pressure on the brits to implement their full responsibilities. At present between 10% and 20% of the PSNI/RUC are involved in intelligence, that is a massive percentage for any police force and it sums up their current position ie not about being a police service for people but of being an arm of the state. The most crucial part of Patten is the curtailing of the Special Branch, an area on which no moves have been made.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

LOL how pathetic, what next pissing on Mother Theresa's grave maybe, then again if it had a Republican outcome I could see you argueing that the Holocaust was justfied.

As for criminality if you break the laws of this country, thats the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND (for example riddling a Garda with illegal rounds from an illegal gun while trying to gain control monies from a bank illegally) you should expect the full penalty of the law without a get out of jail quick card just cause your a member of club chuckie !

Club Chuckie? I liked the films myself gandalf, they were very funny, but I think you need to let it go and stop including it in half the posts you make. Unless of course you have Turetts' or OCD and are compelled to say it!

Your developments on Mother Teresa are intriguing but nevertheless entirely irrelevant. By the way, if you break the laws in the Free State for a politically motivated purpose you need not expect "the full rigours of the law" etc because your right to political status and (possible release under the GFA) is recognised. That is the case in both English and Irish states, both north and south. Deal with it.

My point was that the subject of criminality is more complex than simply "breaking the law", to follow buffybot's simplistic logic Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi would all be considered criminals.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

Regards 1916, make no mistake, many civilians died throughout the course of the Rising, not only as a result of British shells but from misdirected machine gun and rifle fire from the Volunteers as well. They weren't firing water pistols at the British Army and as an inevitable consequence innocent people died as a result of their actions. The period in time after which the Rising was supported is inconsequential, the fact was that despite the wish of the vast majority of Irish people the Volunteers took it upon themselves to initiate a rebellion that cost many lives, both innocent and combatant. Republicans were right to do it then and they were right to do it agin in 1969.

Yes in open battle. What you choose to ignore was the reference to shooting women in the back of the head, does the name Jean McConville mean anything to you, blowing up schoolboys and toddlers, Warrington anyone.

Regards fund-raising, I never denied that it took place in either the Free State (whoops sorry, load up the repatriation boats!) or the 6 Counties. What I did say is that it was done to fund a political war of liberation and as such is not criminal. I also pointed out that the state which you support does not consider it such either owing to their recognition of political status.

Sorry I am a citizen of this country and the actions of these heroes imho and the opinion of the majority is illegal and when caught they should be punished to the fullest degree of the law.

Regards the INLA, I believe Paddy Bo Campbell was killed by a gang member wielding a sword during an INLA operation against a drug-dealer in Dublin, despite what 007 Paul Williams of the Sunday World says, it was not a "turf war".

So now they have reformed from their drug dealing days of the 1980's eh :rolleyes:. And as I said before I do not read the tabloids.

Regards the War of Independence, you are the one who brought up the subject of 1916 heroes not me. I am simply telling you how your "heroes" operated back in their day, much the same way as the IRA of today. I'm only pointing out your own hypocrisy on the subject of punishment activity.

Naw its people that live in this state and think that its laws do not apply to them that are the hypocrites. And I do believe there is an ocean of difference between the men & women that fought to form this state and the gangsters that exist today.

I also stated the IRA are part of their communties, this is not a case of Republicans "forcing themselves" on people gandalf, and now you are really sounding like a tabloid! People in Republican areas are not fools, they realise the role the Movement had in defending them and they support them as such. If the IRA are simply bullies who people are too afraid to challenge how come Sinn Féin record a massive vote in Republican strongholds? I suppose the ballot papers intimidate people as well do they? :rolleyes:

IMHO they probably do. After all you have stated that Sinn Fein and the IRA are not afraid to break the law as they believe it doesn't apply to them. So why should we expect them to follow the rules in an election.

Regards policing, as I stated above, only the brits have the power to implement Patten, it will not come about as a result of Nationalist participating and the fact the Stoop Down Low Party are willing to accept the meagre changes made undermines the pressure on the brits to implement their full responsibilities. At present between 10% and 20% of the PSNI/RUC are involved in intelligence, that is a massive percentage for any police force and it sums up their current position ie not about being a police service for people but of being an arm of the state. The most crucial part of Patten is the curtailing of the Special Branch, an area on which no moves have been made.

So the fact special branch still exists means that Nationalists cannot join to perform community policing eh. No point doing anything until all your demands are met eh. Get in there and change them from within.

gandalf

FTA69 wrote:

Club Chuckie? I liked the films myself gandalf, they were very funny, but I think you need to let it go and stop including it in half the posts you make. Unless of course you have Turetts' or OCD and are compelled to say it!

For the intelligent it is a play on words Chuckie = Tiocfaidh ar la. Do you understand now or do I need to draw a diagram

Your developments on Mother Teresa are intriguing but nevertheless entirely irrelevant. By the way, if you break the laws in the Free State for a politically motivated purpose you need not expect "the full rigours of the law" etc because your right to political status and (possible release under the GFA) is recognised. That is the case in both English and Irish states, both north and south. Deal with it.

Not really just making the point that lumping Nelson Mandella and Martin Luther King in with murders, thieves and smugglers was highly disrespectful.

Well if that is the case maybe I should use your logic and form "punishment squads".......

My point was that the subject of criminality is more complex than simply "breaking the law", to follow buffybot's simplistic logic Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi would all be considered criminals.

Yeah that Gandhi was one hell of a child killer or a mother wacker eh :rolleyes:

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

Yes in open battle. What you choose to ignore was the reference to shooting women in the back of the head, does the name Jean McConville mean anything to you, blowing up schoolboys and toddlers, Warrington anyone.

Sorry I am a citizen of this country and the actions of these heroes imho and the opinion of the majority is illegal and when caught they should be punished to the fullest degree of the law.

So now they have reformed from their drug dealing days of the 1980's eh :rolleyes:. And as I said before I do not read the tabloids.


Naw its people that live in this state and think that its laws do not apply to them that are the hypocrites. And I do believe there is an ocean of difference between the men & women that fought to form this state and the gangsters that exist today.


IMHO they probably do. After all you have stated that Sinn Fein and the IRA are not afraid to break the law as they believe it doesn't apply to them. So why should we expect them to follow the rules in an election.


So the fact special branch still exists means that Nationalists cannot join to perform community policing eh. No point doing anything until all your demands are met eh. Get in there and change them from within.

Regards 1916 and the War of Independence, so you are now denying people were harmed at close quarters are you? What about the women collaboraters who had their buttocks branded with pig irons for "walking out" with the RIC/ Black and Tans/ British Army? You made a point about the Volunteers in those days who "fought like men" thus implying the IRA of today are cowards, make no mistake, being an IRA Volunteer is no easy task and they faced death, harrasment and imprisonment. Also, were the men who starved themselves to death in Long Kesh cowards or any less "manly"?

As a citizen of the Free State you are indeed entitled to your opinion, but the majority of citizens in that state elected a government that enshrined political status as well as passing a referendum that enshrined the early release of prisoners.

Regards the INLA, what I am saying is that they are an organisation which has done much to shake off the stigma of criminality which was attached to them. I am not a member of the IRSM, nor a supporter so I feel no obligation to defend them resolutely, however, I am in as much a position as you to comment on what they do and what they don't do.

Regards hypocrisy, the IRA did not fight in 1916 and 1920 to establish a 26 County state that executed Republican and facilitates partition, remember, the majority of the Army rejected the Treaty in 1922. They fought for a united Irish Republic and that is what Republicans are fighting for today. Also, the IRA are not in the slightest bit hypocritical in breaking the laws of the Free State as they do not pretend to adhere to them. You however, are being enormously hypocritical in supporting the IRA of the 20s although they committed punishment activity while denigrating people who do the same today.

Regards elections, oh yes of course, we have no support anywhere. :rolleyes: Even the British Army general in Ireland admitted Republicans enjoy a lot of popular support in his famous pamphlet on IRA reorganisation in 1979. Keep dismissing our mandate all you want, that is what Fianna Fáil have been doing and look where it is getting them.

Regards policing, to reiterate myself, Patten cannot be implemented "from the inside", the only way it can be is through a comprehensive reform package and only the British Government can initiate that. To join it now simply gives a bad force credence and enables the brits to weasel their way out of progressing real reform.

FTA69

gandalf wrote:

For the intelligent it is a play on words Chuckie = Tiocfaidh ar la. Do you understand now or do I need to draw a diagram

Not really just making the point that lumping Nelson Mandella and Martin Luther King in with murders, thieves and smugglers was highly disrespectful.

Well if that is the case maybe I should use your logic and form "punishment squads".......

Yeah that Gandhi was one hell of a child killer or a mother wacker eh :rolleyes:

Believe it or not when reviewing your posts I don't bother my arse searching for bad, humourless puns. But whatever floats your boat...

Is this the same Nelson Mandela that formed a guerilla group called Umkhonto we Sizwe that launched attacks on a variety of targets as well as planting numerous bombs which had civilian casualties? Umkhonto was also not adverse to knocking over the odd bank, can you see the similarities?

Gandhi did not use armed struggle but he did break the law, thus making him a criminal thus making him deserving of prosecution and subsequent incarceration in which his release should not come about until he served his full sentence. The above statement is simply a progression of your logic regarding criminality, and for me it exposes the shallowness of that brand of thinking.