Ahern does McCabe Killers U-Turn

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

Firstly it is nice to see you admit that it was a robbery. If the IRA feel that they have a good cause then why don't they hold collections and let people choose whether or not they deserve their money.

As for whether or not the men who did this bank job did it for their own personal gain, it was either for personal gain or else it was an ego trip.

The IRA's own rule book states that under no circumstances are their members to attack members of the Garda Siocana. maybe that had more to do with why their maverick bank job wasn't sanctioned until it became convenient for the IRA.

I'm confused here, if the IRA don't sanction a bank heist then why would they want to claim it as an operation. that is like claiming credit for other people's work isn't it. The fact of the matter is that the IRA didn't claim credit for the robbery in adare until they felt that they had something to gain by it, which they don't. proof in the pudding is that not a single sinn fein person caim to my door canvasing during the last election, why, because it will be a cold day in hell before they get a seat in Limerick east while there is a chance that these murderers will get released.


actually the IRA are an embarrasement to the republican movement. I would love to see a united ireland, but only when the majority of the people in the north would be happy to do so, I cannot see it happening in my lifetime and it will only happen if it is accomplished through diplomacy.



the fact that they cannot stick to their own rules proves that they are dishonorable.

You say I am wandering off topic, the points I made on a variety of topics above eg 1916, 1969 etc were relevant to the discussion myself and gandalf were having and you will see that if you scroll back a few pages.

Of course I will admit that the operation was a robbery, but that is simply "a process of theft using force", the IRA frequently and often committed bank and post office robberies to fund their war effort, the motives behind the Adare incident were no different. In the context of prisoner release under the GFA the fact they either shot a guard or robbed a post office van is entirely irrelevant when you consider the killers of Tom Hand were released as were numerous other IRA POWs convicted of armed robbery. Furthermore the only stipulation the GFA has regarding prisoner release is that the offence had to have taken place before 1998 and that the person considered for release is currently a member of a group on ceasefire. Perhaps you could point out how the Castlereagh 4 don't come under that explicit directive? Also, considering the Dublin government have full signed up to the GFA they cannot hide behind the fact that Adare is a seperate jurisdiction to the 6 Counties.

As I said before, do the Standing Orders outlined within the IRA's Green Book have any bearing on the above prisoner release scheme? No, they do not and as such what IRA rules are on the matter are again irrelevant to the point at hand.

Finally, I can't see how the IRA are an "embarrasment to the Republican Movement" considering they form a part of it.

Metrobest

billy the squid wrote:

whether or not that is the case is not what is being debated here though, some of what the IRA did whether it be offensive to some people is dealt with in the Good Friday Agreement.

The debate here is whether or not the bank robbery in adare should be covered by the good friday agreement.which I personally think it should not be. for the reasons stated above.

My point is that if the killers of RUC officers have been let out - which they have been - then so too should the killers of McCabe. Bottom line is, they come from the same organisation: the IRA; and if we are serious about playing our part in bringing a final settlement to Northern Ireland, then unpalatable pills have to be swallowed.

marco murphy

Ms McCabe is expressing her outrage to that though.

Sand

if we are serious about playing our part in bringing a final settlement to Northern Ireland, then unpalatable pills have to be swallowed.

Let them be swallowed by the IRA for a change then. Up until now the two amazing concessions they have made is that they shouldnt be murdering people, and they ought to respect the wishes of the majority in Northern Ireland - which according to the clear views of our Republican contributors isnt based on respect, but rather a poltical calculation. Some bitter pill to swallow.

If they want to go back to war over it theyll be campaigning for the release of far more than the Castle'ra scumbags.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Regards decommisioning, continued UVF pogroms and attacks should not be dismissed as "Loyalist this and Loyalist that",

The murder in Adare (and murder it was) was not committed by the "Loyalists" so the only decommissioning that concerns me is IRA decommissioning

neither should the continued British Army activity eg helicopters and patrols through peoples' gardens that effects peoples' lives adversely. They may seem a non-issue to you but to many they are of the utmost urgency and the removal of racist death squads and the repatriation of an occupying army are of more importance than IRA decommisioning.

When was the last time you experienced a BA patrol in the Independent Socialist Marxist Peoples Republic of Free West Waterford ?

jbkenn

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

You say I am wandering off topic, the points I made on a variety of topics above eg 1916, 1969 etc were relevant to the discussion myself and gandalf were having and you will see that if you scroll back a few pages.

But this is not a discussion about 1916, it is a discussion on whether or not the Good Friday Agreement should cover these castlerea murderers.

FTA69 wrote:

Of course I will admit that the operation was a robbery, but that is simply "a process of theft using force", the IRA frequently and often committed bank and post office robberies to fund their war effort,

But, and I will say it again.

These men BROKE THE IRA'S RULES BY ATTACKING A GARDA! If IRA rules were broken by IRA members then why do they choose to sanction what they did.

My own opinion is that the IRA are using any excuse to slow down the process to protect their little cash cow that is their campaign of bank jobs and protection rackets.

as for whether this is a "war effort," there are rules of engagement which the IRA have never followed. which are required to describe a war.

FTA69 wrote:

IRA POWs

It is easy to glorify a bunch of criminals when your sitting pretty in waterford when there are people up north being forced to hand over money to stop these "heroes" from burning their house to the ground.

I always was under the impression that the term POW was allocated to individuals who were captured by an opposing force during a war.

1. this is not a war

2 These men are being held by the country the IRA wants to join, that being the republic of ireland, being governed by Dublin. The IRA shouldn't be "at war" with the people of Adare

3 This is not a war as defined by the Geneva Convention.

FTA69 wrote:

Furthermore the only stipulation the GFA has regarding prisoner release is that the offence had to have taken place before 1998 and that the person considered for release is currently a member of a group on ceasefire. Perhaps you could point out how the Castlereagh 4 don't come under that explicit directive?

The IRA only recognised the bank heist in adare as one of their "operations" when it became convenient for them to do so, even though it broke the IRA's own rules.

if this were a real army, any officer who broke the rules would be court martialled and dishonorably discharged.

FTA69 wrote:

Also, considering the Dublin government have full signed up to the GFA they cannot hide behind the fact that Adare is a seperate jurisdiction to the 6 Counties.

the IRISH government is not hiding behind the fact that the north is a different juristiction to the south. the IriSH government is making the point that this operation was not originally sanctioned by the IRA

FTA69 wrote:

Finally, I can't see how the IRA are an "embarrasment to the Republican Movement" considering they form a part of it.

If they were then you would think they would aquiesse to the wishes of the majority of the people in the republic and decommission, quickly.

Metrobest wrote:

My point is that if the killers of RUC officers have been let out - which they have been - then so too should the killers of McCabe. Bottom line is, they come from the same organisation: the IRA; and if we are serious about playing our part in bringing a final settlement to Northern Ireland, then unpalatable pills have to be swallowed.
Yesterday 17:20

Producing photographic evidence of IRA decommissioning for the DUP is a bitter pill to swallow too, if the IRA don't have to swallow that one then why should Anne McCabe.

Mighty_Mouse

Remember how the killers of Garda Jerry McCabe were not to be allowed early release under the GFA or as part of a deal?

I think Sinn Fein has always had a different reading on that. I suppose it depends on what who remembers.


I haven't read the thread but I'm presuming it's re-hash. (or maybe a little more emotive re-hash?)

IMO the government had no right to make any promises to Mrs. McCabe which completly contradicted the GFA.

At the end of the day I have huge sympathies for Mrs McCabe and respect her right to fight against the release of the Castlerea prisoners. I respect her right as much as I respect the right of republicans to feel anger when UVF/UDA men are released, families of RUC men when IRA men are released.....................
BUT at the end of the day these families are only parts of a larger picture. Are we gonna hold up the prospect of peace in the north for an emotive argument?

I believe that we only have another 8-10 years to get this sorted before the next generation of catholics feels the anger of oppression.Are we really gonna start wasting opportunities for the sake of a couple of months early release?

FTA69

jbkenn wrote:

The murder in Adare (and murder it was) was not committed by the "Loyalists" so the only decommissioning that concerns me is IRA decommissioning


When was the last time you experienced a BA patrol in the Independent Socialist Marxist Peoples Republic of Free West Waterford ?

jbkenn

IRA decommisioning is not intrinsically related to the Adare incident, and as I said to billy above, I never pretended 1916, arms beyond use etc were relevant to the topic. They were issues discussed between myself and gandalf in a series of exchanges we had.

Regards the British Army, I was reffering to the hardship that the military occupation causes for the people in South Armagh, East Tyrone, West Belfast and South Derry as well as many other areas in Ireland. I never mentioned Waterford so spare your snyde remarks. Besides, the 6 Counties are as much a part of my country as Kerry or Dublin and as such I don't like to see a foriegn occupational army stationed here.

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

My own opinion is that the IRA are using any excuse to slow down the process to protect their little cash cow that is their campaign of bank jobs and protection rackets.

as for whether this is a "war effort," there are rules of engagement which the IRA have never followed. which are required to describe a war.

It is easy to glorify a bunch of criminals when your sitting pretty in waterford when there are people up north being forced to hand over money to stop these "heroes" from burning their house to the ground.

I always was under the impression that the term POW was allocated to individuals who were captured by an opposing force during a war.

1. this is not a war

2 These men are being held by the country the IRA wants to join, that being the republic of ireland, being governed by Dublin. The IRA shouldn't be "at war" with the people of Adare

3 This is not a war as defined by the Geneva Convention.



The IRA only recognised the bank heist in adare as one of their "operations" when it became convenient for them to do so, even though it broke the IRA's own rules.

if this were a real army, any officer who broke the rules would be court martialled and dishonorably discharged.


the IRISH government is not hiding behind the fact that the north is a different juristiction to the south. the IriSH government is making the point that this operation was not originally sanctioned by the IRA

Well done billy, you managed to ignore every point made in my post as well as the crucial question. That being; The only stipulation the Agreement has regarding prisoner release is that the event must have occured before 1998 and the person(s) considered for release must be a member of a group currently on ceaefire.

Do the IRA's internal rules affect the Good Friday Agreement? No they do not.

Does the Agreement refer only to "sanctioned operations"? No it does not.

So again I ask you, how don't the Castlreagh Four come under the Good Friday Agreement? And please, this time actually refer to the institutions of the GFA, which is after all the issue at hand.

Regards IRA fund-raising and POW status, if they were not political prisoners as you alledged how come the government to which you owe your allegiance recognised their right to political status? Why did both they and the British Government recognise said right with every other IRA member? Even those convicted of armed robbery etc?

Your comments about extortion barely warrant a reply since I usually don't address fantastical accusations. However, manybe you could tell me how many IRA members have been convicted of racketeering? And while you are at it you can give me the massive list of those who suffered arson attacks as a result of failure to pay imaginery protection money.

Finally, there is no need to debase yourself by making petty references to my home county. The Republican Movement is alive and well down here and the work we do is substantial, unlike some we don't loiter around all day on internet chatrooms, we actually act on our position. Also, Republicans in Waterford have suffered the beatings from your beloved Guards as well as the imprisonment and harrasment. So keyboard warrior, you tell me who is "sitting pretty".

Rock Climber

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

IMO the government had no right to make any promises to Mrs. McCabe which completly contradicted the GFA.

Well it's an ill informed opinion as you should know, that in the referendum campaign for the GFA in the 26 counties the Government that negotiated that agreement stated to the Irish people several and many times that the McCabe killers were not to be included as part of it's early release terms.
The people voted in that full knowledge and therefore the government were fully entitled to promise the Mcabe family that Garda McCabe's killers will serve their full sentence.

Whats going on here really, is that SF are in tandem with their good bank robbing and Garda killing buddies in the IRA insisting that there will be no deal without this release.
It's quite contemptable really.

FTA69

What right had Bertie Ahern, John O Donoghue or anyone else have to make statements that contradicted an internationally-binding agreement that they signed unreservedly?

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

What right had Bertie Ahern, John O Donoghue or anyone else have to make statements that contradicted an internationally-binding agreement that they signed unreservedly?

As co-signee's and negotiaters, they made it clear to the other negotiaters that the McCabe killers were not to be covered by the GFA.
They made this clear to voters prior to the referendum.

As you may or may not know the GFA and the legislation to impliment it left the early release list to be at the discretion of the minister for justice of the time.
He's been democratically elected and by virtue of that given the right to act on behalf of the Irish people.
If you do a headcount in the Dáil,I'm sure you'll probably find all Fine Gael T.D's,labour T.D's and FF T.D's ie the very vast majority of our democratically elected representatives are all in agreement that the mcCabe killers should serve their sentence in full.
Couple that with the fact as I stated in my last post that it was being made perfectly clear to the 26 county voters at the time of the GFA referendum that the McCabe killers were to be excluded- then it's perfectly clear where Bertie and John got the right to reassure Mrs McCabe.

The only thing that has changed is that SF want to use the McCabe killers release as part of their bargaining chips in the latest negotiations.
They want their Garda killing mates free and it's as simple as that for them.

Now that said, I can understand how they need this carrot to appease the more extreme members of the IRA but I still think its comtemptable.
Thats my view and I'm far from alone in it.

FTA69

So Ahern and co are not obliged to act on their commitments just because they declared their breach ahead of signing? You cannot take an a la carte approach to the GFA in what you feel like implementing and what you don't. As full signatories to said Agreement they are obliged to implement all its aspects, regardless of what falseties they sold either the public or McCabe's widow.

Also, just because it takes McDowell toa ctually sign the papers of release does not equate with the men not coming under the GFA, because as that agreement states, the Ministers for Justice are obliged to sign those papers.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

So Ahern and co are not obliged to act on their commitments just because they declared their breach ahead of signing? You cannot take an a la carte approach to the GFA in what you feel like implementing and what you don't. As full signatories to said Agreement they are obliged to implement all its aspects, regardless of what falseties they sold either the public or McCabe's widow.

It's interesting that you use the word commitment there.
The voters of the 26 counties werent sold a pup when they voted to endorse the GFA.
They were given a clear commitment that what they were voting for, excluded the release of the McCabe killers.
They were a criminal gang on a criminal job, disowned intially by the IRA untill they realised that, píssed off with them though they may be, they'd better claim them or they'd get prison.
People down here recognised that and still do and democratically voted accordingly
I'm wondering what part of democracy you disagree with, is it all of democracy or just when you dont get your own way?
I'm not surprised with that attitude after all it was the cornerstone of the IRA campaign, ie we'll bomb and shoot all round us, against the wishes of nine out of ten of the Irish people.

Now that said, your mindset and my mind set plus that of the majority of people are never going to agree on the merit of the IRA campaign.
We may agree on a pragmatic settlement though.

Arguing for the release of Criminals on a criminal job in one of the 26 counties, well removed from or connected to a campaign against the Crown forces and who killed a Garda in the process-well to be perfectly frank, that is contemptable and shows bad judgement.

But then, SF have no choice really, they are their mates.
It doesn't add to SF's street cred in the South but maybe some good will come out of that as it further portays them down here as dodgy customers.

FTA69

I don't recall seeing a tag on the ballot paper saying "PS, this agreement excludes those held in Castlereagh", like it or not the people voted for the GFA overwhelmingly, and in its entirity. Neither Bertie Ahern, nor anyone else for that matter had or has the right to make statements contrary to that agreement. "Commitment" was the wrong word to use above, "obligation" is more correct considering the Agreement is ultimately binding.

I notice you refer to the men as "criminals" on a "criminal" job, in all fairness, how could you possibly know the motives of those behind the incident? It was part of a fund raising intiative and as IRA Volunteers the men had the authority to fund-raise. Just because the operation was not sanctioned does not make it less of an IRA operation, and besides whether the operation was sanctioned or not is entirely irrelevant considering the Agreement makes no such reference "sanction".

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

FTA69

Except when one does it for a political motive, then their right to political status is recognised and they become eligible for release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

BuffyBot

It was part of a fund raising intiative and as IRA Volunteers the men had the authority to fund-raise

You know, the most amusing thing about it is that you make it sound like they were taking part in the parish cake-sale, not an armed robbery

FTA69

I never stated that the men were engaged in anything else other than an armed robbery. I make no attempts to sanitise war, I simply recognise it for what it is and acknowledge its restraints, inevitabilities and necessities.

BCB

W ankers like Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbite seem to be obsessed over this topic..the bottom line is these men SHOULD be released under the terms of the GFA ragardless..

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I don't recall seeing a tag on the ballot paper saying "PS, this agreement excludes those held in Castlereagh",

In fairness, it was well flagged at the time, one would want to have been in a deep sleep not to have seen the coverage during the referendum campaign regarding the government stating the McCabe killers were not to be released under the agreement.

It was part of a fund raising intiative and as IRA Volunteers the men had the authority to fund-raise.

I'll have to be pedantic with you there and suggest that you could have phrased that to more accurately reflect the situation.
What you should have said was that these men, had the authority of the IRA to act only on their behalf fundraising which may or may not involve armed bank robberies
They certainly had no authority whatsoever in the legal sense to go out doing armed robberies, no one has that authority, its both an illegal act and a socially undesirable act to put it mildly.

Just because the operation was not sanctioned does not make it less of an IRA operation, and besides whether the operation was sanctioned or not is entirely irrelevant considering the Agreement makes no such reference "sanction".

Do armed bank robberies often occur by members without the sanction of the IRA? I didn't think and doubt that they were that poorly disiplined.
If disipline within the ranks of the IRA is so poor, how on earth are they going to police a disbandment and a completion of the process of putting their guns beyond use?
Your comment in answer to my last post seems to suggest such a lack of disipline.I'd be inclined to think the opposite and that disipline in there would be rock solid and that these guys were probably on a maverick operation-who knows what the loot was destined for-we'll never know.

It's all immaterial now though in that its all but certain that they will be released as part of the bigger deal but for what its worth, imho theres enough baggage around what they did to make their release the most questionable and least deserving of any that will have been released.

I have one question though for the IRA supporters here though...
I have heard that it is the intention of the IRA to give its active service members a medal for their duties during the troubles.

Will these guys be getting one aswell for killing a Garda??

originally posted by BCB
W ankers like Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbite seem to be obsessed over this topic..the bottom line is these men SHOULD be released under the terms of the GFA ragardless..

40% of the electorate( a conservative estimate of the FG and LAB support) (and lets see by that logic all the FF supporters as well ) in the South of Ireland are W ankers now are they?
8 out of 10 people in Ireland then must be w ankers....
Here we go again with the contempt for democratic opinion...

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

I never stated that the men were engaged in anything else other than an armed robbery. I make no attempts to sanitise war, I simply recognise it for what it is and acknowledge its restraints, inevitabilities and necessities.

isn't pillaging a war-crime under the Geneva Convention?

billy the squid

BCB wrote:

W ankers like Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbite seem to be obsessed over this topic..the bottom line is these men SHOULD be released under the terms of the GFA ragardless..

these W ankers have a bigger mandate than SF/IRA so how do you like them apples.

Alex27

Greetings folks,

Have to agree with Rock Climber, looks like the goverment is considering their release in exchange for the final act of completion. Release if any most likely will be linked to the latest round of negotiations and results that follow, not to the GFA. Talking about GFA Article 29 part 6 of Irish Constitution states - No international agreement shall be part of the domestic law of the State save as may be determined by the Oireachtas.

Here is the quote from the O'Neill & anor -v- Governor of Castlerea Prison & ors

The Oireachtas enacted the 1998 Act in the knowledge that persons convicted of offences arising out of the killing of Detective Garda McCabe would not be considered for release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and that therefore the Minister would not be specifying them as qualified prisoners.

FTA69

Rock Climber wrote:

In fairness, it was well flagged at the time, one would want to have been in a deep sleep not to have seen the coverage during the referendum campaign regarding the government stating the McCabe killers were not to be released under the agreement.

I'll have to be pedantic with you there and suggest that you could have phrased that to more accurately reflect the situation.
What you should have said was that these men, had the authority of the IRA to act only on their behalf fundraising which may or may not involve armed bank robberies
They certainly had no authority whatsoever in the legal sense to go out doing armed robberies, no one has that authority, its both an illegal act and a socially undesirable act to put it mildly.

Do armed bank robberies often occur by members without the sanction of the IRA? I didn't think and doubt that they were that poorly disiplined.
If disipline within the ranks of the IRA is so poor, how on earth are they going to police a disbandment and a completion of the process of putting their guns beyond use?
Your comment in answer to my last post seems to suggest such a lack of disipline.I'd be inclined to think the opposite and that disipline in there would be rock solid and that these guys were probably on a maverick operation-who knows what the loot was destined for-we'll never know.

It's all immaterial now though in that its all but certain that they will be released as part of the bigger deal but for what its worth, imho theres enough baggage around what they did to make their release the most questionable and least deserving of any that will have been released.

I have one question though for the IRA supporters here though...
I have heard that it is the intention of the IRA to give its active service members a medal for their duties during the troubles.

Will these guys be getting one aswell for killing a Garda??

What Ahern etc stated at the time of the negotiations is entirely irrelevant when compared with the fact they signed up to the Agreement in its entirity, the Agreement that outlines prisoner release guidelines for the which the Castlereagh Four are eligible, you might feel that parties to the GFA have the right to ignore the obligations placed upon them by their signature of that Agreement but I do not.

Regards "authority" and sanction, many people on this thread have stated that since the men breached IRA regulations that is a good enough reason for their continued incarceration and I was simply pointing out the hollowness of this claim. You are however right in saying that what IRA rules or regulations are on the matter are entirely irrelevant.

You also question the discipline of the IRA, I put to you a hypothetical situation; if an IRA ASU shot up a passing British Army patrol (as did frequently happen) on the spur of the moment and happened to kill someone would you consider that an IRA operation or not? In a war it is not possible to have every operation "sanctioned", least of all in the case of a guerilla army such as the IRA.

Regards medals etc, it was the media rags who first peddled this notion so I personally wouldn't set much store by it. Then again, who knows? Some sort of celebration/ceremony would be probable.

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

isn't pillaging a war-crime under the Geneva Convention?

Out of curiosity Billy, do you regard the IRA of the 20s as "terrorists"? Do you seek to deny the War of Independence was a "war"?Remember, the IRA back then were a fan of train robberies.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

What Ahern etc stated at the time of the negotiations is entirely irrelevant when compared with the fact they signed up to the Agreement in its entirity, the Agreement that outlines prisoner release guidelines for the which the Castlereagh Four are eligible, you might feel that parties to the GFA have the right to ignore the obligations placed upon them by their signature of that Agreement but I do not.

I'll answer that if you don't mind.
I voted for the GFA and many like me on the clear understanding that the mcCabe killers were excluded.
Thats democracy for you.
Its what was understood at the time,it was well publicised and debated too and is clear and un ambigous.

Their release now if agreed has nothing whatsoever to do with the GFA, it would be as part of a new deal.
In effect their release would be a condition negotiated by SF on this occasion as was stated earlier as a bargaining chip for that new deal.

You seem to have avoided two points here mentioned above
1. Alex's point regarding the contitution which I'll re-quote for you:

Talking about GFA Article 29 part 6 of Irish Constitution states - No international agreement shall be part of the domestic law of the State save as may be determined by the Oireachtas.

The constitution is final on the matter, and the laws passed to give effect to the early release were democratically put in place.
I'm ill at ease with anyone advocating stuff against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of people.

2. Is it appropriate these McCabe killers be getting a medal for killing the Garda?
If they do, thats rightly described above as contemptable.
On a side note, SF t.d Caomhin o Caolain praised the IRA in the Dáil today.
I can understand why he did so, as no doubt he was fully in favour of its 30 year campaign.
But do you think its wise for a senior member of SF to appear on evening news bulletins saying stuff like that when the overwhelming majority of people disagreed with it?
It wouldn't be something that I'd think would be wise anyway as it draws attention to a Grá for the bombing and shooting and thats not a vote winning association.

FTA69

I also voted for the GFA that stated that demilitarisation would take place after a period of a few years but here we are also. You cannot sign up to an agreement in its entirity and then renege on obligations you undertook just because they don't suit you, the people voted for the GFA under whose auspices the Castlereagh Four come under. End of Story.

Regards the Constitution, so you believe that the killers of McQuaid and Hand should never have been released? Or anyone convicted of armed robbery for that matter? Why bother releasing any prisoners?

The GFA should be implemented IN IT'S ENTIRITY regardless of what the constitution of either state says.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Regards the Constitution, so you believe that the killers of McQuaid and Hand should never have been released? Or anyone convicted of armed robbery for that matter? Why bother releasing any prisoners?

Finally, you are getting the message

p.s in future, please do the courtesy of referring to members of an Garda Siochana by their rank

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

p.s in future, please do the courtesy of referring to members of an Garda Siochana by their rank

Why is considered discourteous to refer to their surnames?

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I also voted for the GFA that stated that demilitarisation would take place after a period of a few years but here we are also. You cannot sign up to an agreement in its entirity and then renege on obligations you undertook just because they don't suit you, the people voted for the GFA under whose auspices the Castlereagh Four come under. End of Story.

Regards the Constitution, so you believe that the killers of McQuaid and Hand should never have been released? Or anyone convicted of armed robbery for that matter? Why bother releasing any prisoners?

The GFA should be implemented IN IT'S ENTIRITY regardless of what the constitution of either state says.

I sense three things in your post...
1.A disregard for the democratic will of the people of Ireland.
2.A disregard for the constitution of Ireland
3.A disregard for what was made clear to SF during the negotiations ie that the McCabe killers weren't covered, they being criminals on a criminal act only conveniently to coin a phrase umberella'ed by the IRA after the crime they committed so as to make the extremely shakey case for their inclusion coupled with a lets ignore the fact that this was also made clear to the voters at the time and the basis for their exclusion was enshrined in the accompaning legislation and implemented by the democratically elected government.

Any one of those three things amounts to hypocrisy, alltogether, they amount to extreme hypocrisy but then that doesn't surprise me from a movement that speaks all the time of a free Ireland when right during their terrorism campaign the free will of the majority of the people of Ireland which was so against the IRA's murderous campaign was so blatantly ignored.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

Out of curiosity Billy, do you regard the IRA of the 20s as "terrorists"? Do you seek to deny the War of Independence was a "war"?Remember, the IRA back then were a fan of train robberies.

doesnt answer my question

is pilaging outlawed by the Geneva Convention yes or no?

sceptre

FTA69 wrote:

The GFA should be implemented IN IT'S ENTIRITY regardless of what the constitution of either state says.

Even someone with a half-arse notion of the extent to which the State[1] is bound by international agreements (see Article 29) that don't fall in line with constitutional restrictions would know that anyone (even Chris McGimpsey) would be up like a shot to challenge that. And assuming there's a contradiction in there, they'd win. I assume you've at least a half-arsed notion of this so you know damned well your proposal above won't wash if there's anything in our constitution that disallows anything listed in the GFA.


[1]Ireland. In the UK obviously an Act of Parliament can ride over almost any previously existing contradiction

Cork

The GFA should be implemented IN IT'S ENTIRITY regardless of what the constitution of either state says.

You left out the courts?

But the laws on this country also need up holding. That is no illrgal armies, no kangaroo courts, punishment beatings or criminality.

cdebru

these men are in prison because they were in the IRA

they were carring out a bank robbery to raise funds for the IRA

these men have to my knowledge never been in prison or charged with anything other than stuff that relates to their membership of the IRA and activities undertaken on behalf of the IRA

if the IRA are going to wind up and go out of business it could not do so while it had prisoners still in prison for offences related to the conflict

the high court and the supreme court ruled that these men were qualifying prisoners under the GFA but that the courts did not have the authority to order their release

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

these men are in prison because they were in the IRA

Hello?! They are in prison for killing a garda while robbing a post office.

they were carring out a bank robbery to raise funds for the IRA

Well it was a post office, and if the IRA knew about the operation, how come they initially denied it? It's not as if theres ten a day committed by them, they would have been well aware of it if it had been sanctioned

these men have to my knowledge never been in prison or charged with anything other than stuff that relates to their membership of the IRA and activities undertaken on behalf of the IRA

They are in prison because they killed a Garda while robbing a post office. If I went out in the morning and did the same and was caught,I'd expect to be in prison too and I can assure you I am not a member of the IRA.

the high court and the supreme court ruled that these men were qualifying prisoners under the GFA but that the courts did not have the authority to order their release

Where did the supreme court state that these prisoners qualified for release under the GFA, have you a link to that?

bonkey

So anyone anything new to offer on this, are will we just continue talking in circles for a while more?

jc

not me anyway,I think we should all agree to disagree and you should close the thread accordingly so we can concentrate on disagree'ing in the other one

billy the squid

I havent read this yet as I only come accross it a few minutes ago but I thought I would share it nonetheless

http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20041211/news02.html

billy the squid

It would appear that sinn fein has a good reason for wanting these men out so early

every bone in my body tells me that no matter what, these "castlerea 5" should serve out their time

from Limerick Leader

Killers are thought to have evidence of SF's IRA links

THE killers of Det Garda Jerry McCabe have vital information linking leading members of Sinn Féin to the IRA's army council, the Limerick Leader was told this week.

"Kevin Walsh could embarrass a lot of people with information he has and that is one of the reasons that Sinn Féin are pushing for the four men's release," a leading political source claimed this Monday.

It was also revealed this week that leading Sinn Féin members met secretly with Kevin Walsh, leader of the gang responsible for Garda McCabe's death in an IRA safehouse in Cavan to carry out an internal inquiry.

"The killers were threatening to reveal information which could have major ramifications for the peace process and possible political deals if they were not included for early release deal," said the source.

Jeremiah Sheehy of Rathkeale, Michael O'Neill and Kevin Walsh both from Patrickswell and Pearse McCauley from Strabane, Tyrone were all jailed for the manslaughter of Det Garda McCabe by the Special Criminal Court in 1999.

"They were moved from Portlaoise to Castlerea - a low security prison because of the information that Walsh has. He could seriously affect any deal if their release is not secured," said the source.

The Limerick Leader has also learned senior Sinn Féin leaders met with Mr Walsh in an IRA safehouse in Cavan shortly before he was captured. Sinn Féin chief negotiator and member of the Ard Comhairle, Martin McGuinness has previously denied meeting the men in the house after the killing.

It is believed the Sinn Féin leaders met Walsh in hiding as part of an internal inquiry they were carrying out following Garda McCabe's killing. It is believed that the Adare incident had not received an official sanction from the IRA's army council and that the internal inquiry concluded that it was a go-it-alone operation by the IRA's main Munster unit.

Despite numerous attempts by the Limerick Leader for comment from Sinn Fein, nothing has been received.

Deputy Peter Power met the Taoiseach on Tuesday "to express the outright opposition of Limerick people to the proposed release of the killers of Gerry McCabe."

"I have has a series of meetings with the Taoiseach going back over a period of six weeks - well before the Taoiseach's statements last week. During those meetings, I expressed to the Taoiseach in clear terms the depth of feeling amongst Limerick people in relation to this matter."

"I explained to him that this was a highly emotive issue for the people of Limerick and especially for the McCabe family. Anybody who attended Jerry McCabe's funeral could be left in no doubt about the strength and depth of emotive in Limerick concerning this issue," said Deputy Power.

FTA69

Wow, if it's in the Limerick Leader it must be true... :rolleyes:
Seems to be another "Skibbereen Eagle" scenario is unfolding...

It has been said that Kevin Walsh is solidly behind the current leadership of the Republican Movement so I doubt he is about to spill the beans about any alleged links. Pure tripe.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

Wow, if it's in the Limerick Leader it must be true... :rolleyes:
Seems to be another "Skibbereen Eagle" scenario is unfolding...

more balanced than that rag An Publocht anyway. And given that Gda McCabe worked and died in Limerick, I would imagine that the local press would have better access to local information than the national media.

FTA69

Local information? And what access would the Limerick Leader have to internal IRA affairs, aside of course from fabrication, either of their own making or that of the police.

A Dub in Glasgo

Nothing in that article other than guesswork

mike65

Excure me posting all this but its worth reading

from unison.

Gerry Adams lied about McCabe deal, says angry Ahern


Killers threatened Sinn Fein TD Martin Ferris to secure their release
Government documents show photographs were 'on' two weeks ago

THE Taoiseach has accused the Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, of lying about analleged deal to free the killers of Garda Jerry McCabe.

Mr Adams claimed on the Late Late Show that he and Bertie Ahern shook hands and agreed to their release as long ago as 1999 - after the killers had been convicted but before they had even been sentenced.

But after a day of angry demands by Opposition leaders that he respond to the claims, Mr Ahern told the Sunday Independent: "What Gerry Adams said on the Late Late Show is just not true. From day one we made it clear that the killers of Garda Jerry McCabe would not be released as part of the Good Friday Agreement."

A spokeswoman for the Taoiseach said he never gave any assurances on the killers' early release. She said that to suggest the early release of the killers wasn't a "problem" for the Taoiseach was wrong.

The spokeswoman said that, in February 1999, Mr Ahern told then FG leader John Bruton: "At no time was anyone given any comfort about these people and neither will they be."

The Sunday Independent can also reveal that the main pressure to get the killers of Garda McCabe freed had come from Sinn Fein TD, Martin Ferris, who had himself come under strong pressure from the incarcerated killers.

Senior Government sources say that Mr Ferris pushed the line that failure to release them would lead to a split in the IRA because he had been threatened with embarrassing revelations by the McCabe killers if he did not deliver.

The Sunday Independent has also seen Government documents which make it clear that the taking and publication of photographs of decommissioned weapons was still considered to be an essential part of any agreement as recently as two weeks ago.

These documents appear to contradict Mr Adams's assertion that as long ago aslast September, both Governments were aware the photographs issue was not a runner.

The documents, which were sent to the DUP by the Government on November 30, state that "the photographs will be taken by the IICD [the decommissioning body] . . . the Government will ensure that the photographs to be published will be made available to national and local media organisations".

On Friday's Late Late Show, Mr Adams told Pat Kenny: "I went to the Taoiseach and I said to the Taoiseach: 'I don't know if these guys [McCabe's killers] are going to get sentenced or not but if they are, they cannot be left behind. They have to be part of the overall release of all the prisoners. And he [the Taoiseach] said, 'If we get an agreement that will not be a problem.'"

Mr Adams had previously written in his autobiography,

ANALYSIS

Hope and History - Making Peace in Ireland: "If we got an agreement, the Taoiseach told me, I would have nothingto worry about on that score. Fair enough. We shookhands on it."

The dispute between Mr Ahern and Mr Adams caused immediate controversy yesterday. FG leader, Enda Kenny, told the Sunday Independent: "If this claim is true then the repeated commitments made by Mr Ahern and his ministers at the time and subsequently were totally bogus and insincere. The Taoiseach must provide a response to these allegations as a matter of urgency."

Former FG leader Michael Noonan said: "It certainly requires an immediate explanation. Adams's quotes last night showed the whole thing is simply bedded in hypocrisy.

"Sinn Fein have been spinning so long and so convincingly that they are not challenged any more by RTE. Even distinguished reporters kind of just nod their heads."

The General Secretary of the Garda Representative Association, PJ Stone, said: "The Taoiseach should clarify this once and for all. Either he or Gerry Adams has not been telling the truth.

"If it is true that the Taoiseach gave a guarantee before these men were even sentenced, it undermines everything, the State, the lot. The Taoiseach has to clear this up now," Mr Stone said.

Meanwhile, the Sunday Independent has learned that the Government has been told that Martin Ferris, the former IRA gun runner and Sinn Fein TD, will be held personally responsible by the killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe if they fail to get early release.

A senior Government source has said Mr Ferris has been threatened with embarrassing disclosures that could damage SF unless he secures their release.

The Government was told that the TD for Kerry North warned SF leaders there would be an IRA split if their release were not guaranteed, and that vast arms caches buried in Munster would not be decommissioned.

The latest disclosures will embarrass Ferris, who is believed to be an associate of Kevin Walsh, one of the detective garda's killers and was believed to be head of the IRA's Munster brigade at the time of the shooting.

Yesterday, Mr Stone, said: "I think it is really significant that Kevin Walsh and others in jail in Castlerea are going to expose senior Sinn Fein figures if they are not catered for in the peace agreement. They are not going to have Adams and others swanning around when they are effectively left behind in jail."

Meanwhile, the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, said yesterday that the crucial issue for him was a declaration by the IRA that they would end their involvement in criminality.

"Gerry Adams says that what they are willing to sign up to is the same thing. If it is, let them sign up to what is required. Failure to deliver this could lead to a situation where the IRA had a safety valve to continue to indulge in criminality.

"And if that were to happen it could leave the Government in the position where it looked as if it had acquiesced in that," he said.

Labour Party leader Pat Rabbitte yesterday called for clarity from the Government.

"On the information now available, there seem to be only two possible interpretations. Either the PDs engaged in an after-the-event analysis of documents and then seized on a missing sub-clause, the absence of which struck no one else as significant, in order to justify unwise assertions made by the Tanaiste in the Dail last Wednesday.

"Or else the Irish people were kept in the dark by the Taoiseach as to the very real uncertainty surrounding the nature and extent of the commitment the IRA was prepared to make in writing, in order to secure the restoration of the Good Friday Agreement and its institutions."

MAEVE SHEEHAN, JODY CORCORAN, JEROME REILLY and ALAN MURRAY

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Hello?! They are in prison for killing a garda while robbing a post office.

Well it was a post office, and if the IRA knew about the operation, how come they initially denied it? It's not as if theres ten a day committed by them, they would have been well aware of it if it had been sanctioned

They are in prison because they killed a Garda while robbing a post office. If I went out in the morning and did the same and was caught,I'd expect to be in prison too and I can assure you I am not a member of the IRA.

Where did the supreme court state that these prisoners qualified for release under the GFA, have you a link to that?

you missed my point they were robbing the post office because they were members of the IRA
there is no evidence that any of these men would have ended up in prison if it was not for the political situation in this country
now if you are to reach a settlement people who are in prison because of the conflict have to be released

the point that the IRA army council did not know about the robbery is irrelevant
they did not need sanction from the army council to do this
that does not mean that it was not an IRA operation
it just means that the IRA army council did not have previous knowledge

can i suggest that if the IRA army council had said they did not have prior information or did not sanction enniskillen or warrington or birmingham no one would suggest that meant it was not an IRA operation or that the IRA was not responsible


last point is common knowledge google it yourself
they said the prisoners were qualifying under the terms of the GFA
however it is up to the executive to decide who to release as there is nothing in the GFA that is binding
thats my understanding of it anyway

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

you missed my point they were robbing the post office because they were members of the IRA
there is no evidence that any of these men would have ended up in prison if it was not for the political situation in this country

Hold up here, what you are saying is that they got caught for robbing a bank and they would have been let away with it if they were not members of the IRA

no offence here but that is complete and utter horse ****.

They got caught robbing the post office and the manslaughter of a guard, they should be greatful they didnt get the full 40 years instead you have sinn fein bitching and moaning about them being in jail at all.

now if you are to reach a settlement people who are in prison because of the conflict have to be released

They are not in prison because of some conflict. They are in prison for robbing a post office and killing a member of the Gardai who was protecting the money. The IRA denied the robbery initially.

the point that the IRA army council did not know about the robbery is irrelevant

No it is NOT! Who do these scumbags think they are that gives them the right to run riot around my country robbing banks and gunrunning and then claiming "oh the IRA have a right to do this" These men are criminals full stop.

they did not need sanction from the army council to do this
that does not mean that it was not an IRA operation
it just means that the IRA army council did not have previous knowledge

They knew about it afterwards and denied responsibility!

they said the prisoners were qualifying under the terms of the GFA
however it is up to the executive to decide who to release as there is nothing in the GFA that is binding

It was stated by the government of the republic of ireland that the McCabe murderers would not be covered by the Good Friday Agreement before the referendum took place. The doubt over whether or not the killers would or would not be released under this agreement nearly caused the republic to reject it. That is why our government made it clear that these men would not be covered by the agrreement.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

Hold up here, what you are saying is that they got caught for robbing a bank and they would have been let away with it if they were not members of the IRA

no offence here but that is complete and utter horse ****.

They got caught robbing the post office and the manslaughter of a guard, they should be greatful they didnt get the full 40 years instead you have sinn fein bitching and moaning about them being in jail at all..

read what i said not what you think i said
they would not have robbed the money in the first place if they had not been in the IRA
there fore it is part of the coflict

billy the squid wrote:

They are not in prison because of some conflict. They are in prison for robbing a post office and killing a member of the Gardai who was protecting the money. The IRA denied the robbery initially..

raising money for the IRA is part of the conflict
the denial is irrelevant
they were and still are members of the IRA they were acting on behalf of the IRA even if the IRA army council was unaware of their activities at the time

billy the squid wrote:

No it is NOT! Who do these scumbags think they are that gives them the right to run riot around my country robbing banks and gunrunning and then claiming "oh the IRA have a right to do this" These men are criminals full stop. .

no criminals steal for their own benefit
these people were stealing money to fund a politically motivated armed campaign
that is obviously part of the conflict

billy the squid wrote:

They knew about it afterwards and denied responsibility!.

i dont know when the IRA leadership found out its people were involved and i'am guessing you dont either

the simple question is did the IRA kill garda mc cabe the answer is yes
do IRA prisoners qualify for early relerase again yes

billy the squid wrote:

It was stated by the government of the republic of ireland that the McCabe murderers would not be covered by the Good Friday Agreement before the referendum took place. The doubt over whether or not the killers would or would not be released under this agreement nearly caused the republic to reject it. That is why our government made it clear that these men would not be covered by the agrreement.

how do you know how people would have voted at the time
where is your evidence that the GFA was nearly rejected

the men had not been convicted at the time of the GFA
so of course they could not have been included as they were innocent at the time in the eyes of the law
but other people who killed gardai were released what is the difference

billy the squid

If the government were not worried about the good friday agreement being rejected they would not have made that promise to the people of the republic of ireland that the McCabe Killers would not be released. There is your evidence that the Agreement would been rejected.