Ahern does McCabe Killers U-Turn

mike65

Did anyone hear Gerry Adams on Morning Ireland today (monday) he said (clearly) that no PIRA Activist should commit criminal acts (ie plain old ODC stuff). With the implication that if any PIRA members did, they'd be disowned by the Provisional IRA. So where does that leave thier relationship with the Adare killers? Was the robbery ODC stuff or carried out as a "political" act?

"you cannot be a criminal and a republican activist, you cannot be involved in criminality..."

Real audio here - http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/rte-morningireland.smil

skip foward to about 1hr 14min. the interview is about 8 mins.

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

yes they denied it was them orignally
apparently they now say it was not santioned at the top level
but it was sanctioned lower down that is why the leadership denied it

however they have never denied that these men are members

the people in columbia have only been convicted of travelling on false passports and were found not guilty on any of the terrorism charges
but dont let the facts get in the way

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

My memory is not failing me but I do not remember the IRA disowning the members that carried out this attack. They might have denied any involvment initially but that is not the same as disowning. Once they realised that their members did carry out this attack, they accepted responsibility with the added caveat that they were not aware that their members had been involved.

Those nice chaps in Columbia have been found guilty of travelling on flase passports. Nothing more and nothing less. They were acquitted of training FARC rebels.

cdebru

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I would remind people that the IRA killers of Gardai Seamus McQuaid and Frank Hand were released under the GFA. Why isn't there such a hullaballoo about that? Oh I see, because they were killed in the 80's?

So hypocritical!

i agree apparently the lives of those gardai are not as important

cdebru

mike65 wrote:

Did anyone hear Gerry Adams on Morning Ireland today (monday) he said (clearly) that no PIRA Activist should commit criminal acts (ie plain old ODC stuff). With the implication that if any PIRA members did, they'd be disowned by the Provisional IRA. So where does that leave thier relationship with the Adare killers? Was the robbery ODC stuff or carried out as a "political" act?



Real audio here - http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/rte-morningireland.smil

skip foward to about 1hr 14min. the interview is about 8 mins.

Mike.

at the time of adare the IRA were not on ceasefire having ended the ceasefire with canary wharf four months earlier
of course Fine Gael lie about this all the time and it goes un challenged

as the IRA were in conflict again a fundraising operation for the IRA would obviously be viewed as political by republicans

Sleepy

bank robbery != fundraising

bank robbery = theft = criminal activity

Now what was that Adams was spouting this morning?

Sparks

cdebru wrote:

i agree apparently the lives of those gardai are not as important

Then you agree that those who killed those gardai should be rearrested and made serve out their respective sentences?

bonkey

Sparks wrote:

Then you agree that those who killed those gardai should be rearrested and made serve out their respective sentences?

Yeah....introducnig the notion that you can be arrested, tried, and convicted multiple times for the same crime would be a really good way of dealing with this issue.....

NOT.

Sparks

bonkey wrote:

Yeah....introducnig the notion that you can be arrested, tried, and convicted multiple times for the same crime would be a really good way of dealing with this issue.....
NOT.

Well, you know. Irish solution to an Irish problem and all that.

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

it would not have been popular just as it is not popular now

but i doubt very much that the good friday agreement would have been rejected

just as it was not rejected in the north despite the fact that some very unsavoury people were being released from prison

It was passed in the north because the ordinary person had enough of people killing each other and wanted an end to it.

like I said before if the government were confident that the status of Gerry McCabes killers would not have affected the good friday agreement, they would not have made the promise that they would not be released under it.

as an aside, wether or not a prisoner is released under the good friday agreement was left at the discression of the Minister for Justice, so I cannot see how the Good Friday Agreement is being violated by keeping these men in jail, (that is assuming that these men are for some strange reason to have been acting on behalf of the IRA)

billy the squid

Kingsize wrote:

As far as I remember The Robbery wasn't succesful i.e. two cops shot but no
money taken,was this really case I wonder?

we call them Gardai down here.

I could never understand it actually when you think that both cops were armed.
I do distinctly rememeber the day it happened & there was the suggestion that it was an "Execution" which has always been in the back of my mind.

It would have been difficult to rob the van with two armed guards nearby so it would have been common sense to take the guards out. They attacked the guards in their car while they were protecting money meant for old age pensioners.

So why they got only a manslaughter charge, if they actually attacked the two guards first is actually mind boggleing.

I would imagine that these guys would be walking free today were it not for the fact that they killed a garda. e.g.if they had killed the unarmed driver of the postal truck

The fact of the matter is that they did kill a garda.

Kingsize

Billy whats your problem?the point of my post was they didnt take any money.so was it an execution /a grudge killing/ something we dont know about,The disrespect shown by the government is unbelievable especially when you think of the way a sensationalist journo like veronica guerin has been practically canonised in this country.It makes me wonder why gardai killed in the line of duty are not honoured in the same way.( i dont recall a statue of Gerry mccabe being erected anywhere at least not in the grounds of Government buildings.)
presumablY the poor pensioners eventually got their cash although what relevence that has is beyond me.
If a garda is armed it is for a purpose & it gives him or her an advantage over an unarmed person.
Why send gardai out armed in outdated un armoured vehicles?? it does not make sense & is dangerous.
you seem to value the life of a Garda over the life of an innocent passerby,it seems the government feeling on the same is whatever suits them.

.As for "we call them gardai down here" im sure people down there as you put it have plenty of words to describe gardai nevertheless point taken.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Gardai are known by many things... I would not get hung up on the correct identifier

cdebru

Sparks wrote:

Then you agree that those who killed those gardai should be rearrested and made serve out their respective sentences?

no i think people have jumped on to a bandwagon and that they are inconsistant
on the prisioner release issue

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

It was passed in the north because the ordinary person had enough of people killing each other and wanted an end to it.

like I said before if the government were confident that the status of Gerry McCabes killers would not have affected the good friday agreement, they would not have made the promise that they would not be released under it.

as an aside, wether or not a prisoner is released under the good friday agreement was left at the discression of the Minister for Justice, so I cannot see how the Good Friday Agreement is being violated by keeping these men in jail,

the good friday agreement makes no mention of individual prisioners or actions
and does not specify who should or should not be released on a named basis


1Both Governments will put in place mechanisms to provide for an accelerated programme for the release of prisoners, including transferred prisoners, convicted of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland or, in the case of those sentenced outside Northern Ireland, similar offences (referred to hereafter as qualifying prisoners). Any such arrangements will protect the rights of individual prisoners under national and international law.
2. Prisoners affiliated to organisations which have not established or are not maintaining a complete and unequivocal ceasefire will not benefit from the arrangements. The situation in this regard will be kept under review.

3. Both Governments will complete a review process within a fixed time frame and set prospective release dates for all qualifying prisoners. The review process would provide for the advance of the release dates of qualifying prisoners while allowing account to be taken of the seriousness of the offences for which the person was convicted and the need to protect the community. In addition, the intention would be that should the circumstances allow it, any qualifying prisoners who remained in custody two years after the commencement of the scheme would be released at that point.

4. The Governments will seek to enact the appropriate legislation to give effect to these arrangements by the end of June 1998.

5. The Governments continue to recognise the importance of measures to facilitate the reintegration of prisoners into the community by providing support both prior to and after release, including assistance directed towards availing of employment opportunities, re-training and/or re-skilling, and further education.

billy the squid wrote:

(that is assuming that these men are for some strange reason to have been acting on behalf of the IRA)

i take it from that that you dont think the IRA were responsible for garda mcccabes killing
or indeed any action that the army council did not specifically sanction
that is very nice of you to absolve the republican movement of any responsibility in such matters

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

the good friday agreement makes no mention of individual prisioners or actions
and does not specify who should or should not be released.

However our constitution does state that any international agreement's implimentation is at the discretion of the Oireachtas...
Now whats it to be? get Barry Sinclair in to hypnotise the vast majority of the oireachtas so they are in favour of the release?

Or do we hold a referendum to either change that piece of the constitution or better still a referendum on whether they should be released?
But that would involve asking the people today on the matter and not reverting back to the 1918 election.
I s'pose it would be too democratic to go with what the people wanted...
We couldn't have that :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Earthman wrote:

I s'pose it would be too democratic to go with what the people wanted...
We couldn't have that :rolleyes:

The people have already spoken

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The people have already spoken

Thats correct they have, they voted for the GFA in the 26 counties on the understanding that the McCabe killerswere not to be included, they being a criminal gang on a criminal job and all that.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Honestly sometimes it needs to be pointed out to those that attempt to conveniently ignore it all the time

Sleepy

3. Both Governments will complete a review process within a fixed time frame and set prospective release dates for all qualifying prisoners. The review process would provide for the advance of the release dates of qualifying prisoners while allowing account to be taken of the seriousness of the offences for which the person was convicted and the need to protect the community. In addition, the intention would be that should the circumstances allow it, any qualifying prisoners who remained in custody two years after the commencement of the scheme would be released at that point.

The circumstances won't allow the release of McCabe's murderers as the government has already promised his widow that they won't allow their premature release for the reduced sentance they already received. Also of note is the fact that Harney has pledged to withdraw from Government if they are released so to do so would result in the collapse of the current Government. ERGO: McCabes murderers are exempt from the GFA.

oscarBravo

billy the squid wrote:

So why they got only a manslaughter charge, if they actually attacked the two guards first is actually mind boggleing.

Didn't some witnesses develop sudden amnesia?

billy the squid wrote:

The fact of the matter is that they did kill a garda.

Two.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

Two.

do you mean you think they killed two gardai

if so who is the other one

billy the squid

oscarBravo wrote:

Didn't some witnesses develop sudden amnesia? Two.

the men who attempted to rob the post office in Adare killed one garda and left the other seriously injured.

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

The circumstances won't allow the release of McCabe's murderers as the government has already promised his widow that they won't allow their premature release for the reduced sentance they already received. Also of note is the fact that Harney has pledged to withdraw from Government if they are released so to do so would result in the collapse of the current Government. ERGO: McCabes murderers are exempt from the GFA.

and that was not what the sentence should the circumstances allow was about

but dont let that stop you

you completely ignored the rest of the quote

and you are living in the past harney has changed her position so there is no chance of the government falling on this issue

the prisioners qualify because they fit all the criteria

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Thats correct they have, they voted for the GFA in the 26 counties on the understanding that the McCabe killerswere not to be included, they being a criminal gang on a criminal job and all that.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Honestly sometimes it needs to be pointed out to those that attempt to conveniently ignore it all the time

that may have been your understanding but the people voted on what the agreement said not what any particular party to the agreement would like it to have said

lets not forget nationalists voted for it because they were told it was a stepping stone to a united ireland unionist were told it copperfastened the union what people were told is irrelevant what is in the agreement is the important thing

again if your arguement is that these men where not sanctioned and therefore were not acting on behalf of the IRA does that mean that you believe the IRA is in no way responsible for garda mccabes killing or any other action that the army council did not sanction

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

the good friday agreement makes no mention of individual prisioners or actions
and does not specify who should or should not be released on a named basis

The good friday agreement leaves the release of individual prisoners at the discression of the minister for Justice The courts have said this, and the pro-IRA posters here have even said this.

3. Both Governments will complete a review process within a fixed time frame and set prospective release dates for all qualifying prisoners. The review process would provide for the advance of the release dates of qualifying prisoners while allowing account to be taken of the seriousness of the offences for which the person was convicted and the need to protect the community. In addition, the intention would be that should the circumstances allow it, any qualifying prisoners who remained in custody two years after the commencement of the scheme would be released at that point.

again read the above point, the courts were not able to gain the release of these prisoners because the minister for justice made the right decision by keeping them locked up at his discression.

i take it from that that you dont think the IRA were responsible for garda mcccabes killing

The IRA themselves denied it. but later claimed responsibility for it when the saw that their buddies were going to go down for a long time if they were convicted.

or indeed any action that the army council did not specifically sanction
that is very nice of you to absolve the republican movement of any responsibility in such matters

You seem to be taking the thread off topic (in typical pro-IRA fassion, and talking crap in the proces. I not once mentioned any other terrorist or criminal incident in my post, I am specifically dealing with the robbery in adare and the killing of Garda McCabe.

How does separating one single criminal act from a terrorist organisation give them absoloution from every single one of their atrocities.

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

do you mean you think they killed two gardai

Senior moment, sorry: tried to kill two.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

The good friday agreement leaves the release of individual prisoners at the discression of the minister for Justice The courts have said this, and the pro-IRA posters here have even said this..

no the legislation enacted by the irish government gives the minister discretion the gfa make no reference to the minister for justice

billy the squid wrote:

again read the above point, the courts were not able to gain the release of these prisoners because the minister for justice made the right decision by keeping them locked up at his discression..

the courts were not trying to gain the mens release they were merely deciding on an appeal to them by the men involved seeking their release the court decided that these men were qualifying but there release was up to the executive

billy the squid wrote:

The IRA themselves denied it. but later claimed responsibility for it when the saw that their buddies were going to go down for a long time if they were convicted..

I think this has been explained often enough the army council did not sanction the robbery so wrongly issued a denial straight away
so you want to have it both ways the IRA is responsible for garda mccabes killing but the men were not acting on behalf of the IRA
which is it you cant have it both ways

billy the squid wrote:

You seem to be taking the thread off topic (in typical pro-IRA fassion, and talking crap in the proces. I not once mentioned any other terrorist or criminal incident in my post, I am specifically dealing with the robbery in adare and the killing of Garda McCabe..

no
you seem to want to wriggle out of the question I am asking if the army council of the IRA do not specifically santion an action are the IRA still responsible for that action

as for being pro IRA as I have stated previuosly I believe that the IRA should decommision and cease all activity
however if that is to happen then these people have to be released even the PDs realise this hardly the friends of the IRA
I happen to think that it is far more important that the IRA be disbanded and disarmed rather than have these guns floating around and ending up in god knows whos hands and how many more people including gardai would die at the end of them for the sake of keeping these men in prison for the next 2/3/4 years I just think you should look at the bigger picture instead of your smallminded whatever republicans are for iam against atitude

billy the squid wrote:

How does separating one single criminal act from a terrorist organisation give them absoloution from every single one of their atrocities.

it doesn't but the extension of your logic that these men were not actiing on behalf of the IRA because they were unsanctioned would leave alot of room for the IRA to distance itself from alot of operations

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

and that was not what the sentence should the circumstances allow was about

but dont let that stop you

you completely ignored the rest of the quote

and you are living in the past harney has changed her position so there is no chance of the government falling on this issue

the prisioners qualify because they fit all the criteria

You mean I used the one loophole in the law to get the desired result? Hmm, what does that remind you of? A lwayer perhaps? Maybe one of those lawyers who twisted the law (never mind the other people twisting witnesses arms) to secure a manslaughter verdict instead of one of murder?

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

again if your arguement is that these men where not sanctioned and therefore were not acting on behalf of the IRA does that mean that you believe the IRA is in no way responsible for garda mccabes killing or any other action that the army council did not sanction

I'll accept that the IRA is in no way legally responsible for McCabe's killing gladly if it means the men involved serve the rest of their sentances without parole.

I would, however reserve the right to hold them morally accountable for putting the guns in the idiot's hands.