Should we be allowed to use force to protect our homes?

skywalker

Canis Lupus wrote:

i reckon once a person steps onto/into yur property they should be considered fair game with exception of killing said person unless the situation demanded it. I believe the criminal should have no legal rights against the homeowner in terms of suing for damages etc.

aidan_dunne wrote:

Scumbags getting away with f**king murder these days, sueing people who were defending themselves from them, all that stuff makes my f**king blood boil!

agree 100% with both of the above.

Doper Than U wrote:

I heard a great story a while ago about this guy who came downstairs to find a burglar in his house. He beat the ever-loving sh1t outta the burglar, and then dragged him down the street and left him around the corner. Next morning the burglar brings the police around to the house complaining that he had been beaten, but the guy just stood there and said that his house had not been broken into, that everything was fine, that he had never seen the burglar in his life and that he must be mistaken, and that was it... police just left it. Must have been so damn satisfying.

my mam told me that story yesterday, good for him, if it was true

ixoy

Trigger! wrote:

ah theirs something about the 'burglars rights' that bothers me!

Yeah, those cases where the burgular breaks in and gets trapped in a garage and sues the family for mental anguish (succesfully too I think).

Or another burgular sued a family when he fell through the glass on the consevatory roof, saying it was dangerous. The worst thing is I think he won too. Fecking charming.

skywalker

Hugh Hefner wrote:

No way we should be allowed to kill them but nor should they get compensation if injured while 'on the job' so to speak. I'm still not completely convinced we should be allowed to if they're trying to kill us. I certainly woouldn't. Hell, there are a lot of ways to stop someone from killing you other than killing them. Guns should not be allowed. Mace and peper sprays are good. If you kill an intruder while using force but you didn't mean to kill them then that's okay. e.g. Trying to knock someone out.

Reminder: It's just a house and only property. We shouldn't use force to protect it.

are you serious? youd actually think twice about killing some scumbag who has broke into your house and your sure hes trying to kill you or your family? why? "It's just a house and only property" thats fine if thats your choice (personally i value my property enough to defend it if the need arises but again thats your choice), but your personal safety is completely differant. you've said you wouldnt react with force even though this was threatened.

and mace and pepper spray are fine in theory i suppose, but they are illegal here afaik and the majority dont carry them so its kinda mute. a blunt object wouldve been a better choice of weapon, everyone has some form of blunt object close to hand in the bedroom.

Pinkchick03

skywalker wrote:

are you serious? youd actually think twice about killing some scumbag who has broke into your house and your sure hes trying to kill you or your family? why? "It's just a house and only property" thats fine if thats your choice (personally i value my property enough to defend it if the need arises but again thats your choice), but your personal safety is completely differant. you've said you wouldnt react with force even though this was threatened.

and mace and pepper spray are fine in theory i suppose, but they are illegal here afaik and the majority dont carry them so its kinda mute. a blunt object wouldve been a better choice of weapon, everyone has some form of blunt object close to hand in the bedroom.

Here here!

The burgular would kill/injure anyone that got in their way - so surely we should be able to defend ourselves - our family. Remember our house holds our worldly possessions - I know I would love to cause harm to someone that even attempted to hurt my family - and that tried to take my property.

If you kill someone in self defence - you should not be prosecuted as far as I am concerned.

As someone said earlier - the law is on the criminals side.

As for the gardaí not coming to the Texaco where Da_cOmRaDe_Mike works - holy god - what if you and the guy you were working with were shot/kidnapped and the gardaí just strolled in after you were gone - what is the country coming to?

dabhal

Anyone out there know what the law states about self defense in the home or otherwise?
I have heard that if they come near a bedroom all bets are off?


Dabhal

Spalk0

dabhal wrote:

Anyone out there know what the law states about self defense in the home or otherwise?
I have heard that if they come near a bedroom all bets are off?


Dabhal

Ah so in that case entice the fecker with a jewellery trail to the bedroom the club the B*stard!

Hagar

There was a series of break-ins in Tallaght a few years ago where the common factor was the housholder finding his kettle on the landing the next morning. Gardai couldn't make sense of it and concluded that it was put there as an obstacle to trip the householder if he woke up and give the burglars time to get away. The truth was more sinister as was found out when a householder did wake up and came out on the landing. He was confronted by a scumbag who threw a boiling kettle of water at him and scalded him badly. It seems the MO was to boil the kettle then have a one person on "guard duty" with the boiling water while the other ransacked the house downstairs. In the other break-ins where the burglars had got away un-disturbed the kettle had cooled down so nobody realised its true purpose.

Pre-meditated violence of the worst kind.
Horse whipping is too good for these bástards.

RasTa

Why the hell should you be able to kill someone whois on your property and not posing any threat at all. What if its a 16 year old you end up killing.

(statement is made on you attacking the intruder first , would you shoot someone who was running away ? )

Thats what happened that farmer in England who killed a 19 year old who was on his property. As the farmer came out with his shotgun both the robbers fled, but the farmer still chased after them, killed one and wounded the other which i think is wrong and he deserved to go to jail for.

Killing someone is right-wing nazi style, unless your own life is in danger.

stevenmu

Hugh Hefner wrote:

Reminder: It's just a house and only property. We shouldn't use force to protect it.

The thing is it's not just a "house", it's a home. You and possibly your family live there. When confronted somne burglars will just jump out a window, others will attack whoever they see. Some will even search out people and attack them first. The only way to know how an intruder is going to act is to give them the chance to do it. Basically there's 2 choices, hide and hope everything works out for the best or take matters into your own hands. Personally I'd go for the second option, and while I wouldn't deliberatly try to kill someone unless I had to, I wouldn't go out of my way to protect their life either. Accidents do happen after all...

Trizo

If someone were to break into my house and try rob or injure me or my family id lay the smack down. Then take out the robbers tongue poke their eyes out and pull off their ears then they can’t say S%*t.
You’re allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself I consider this reasonable: D

ambro25

Isn't there something about 'proportionality', when assessing whether force used was reasonable or not?

I was let off for shooting at someone many years ago (didn't hit the guy but then I wasn't aiming at him, just around to sh1t him up), but only because he'd shot at me first. If he'd been lobbing darts or even knives at me, then it would have been a totally different kettle of fish (so I was told by my counsel).

Don't get me wrong - I'm siding with the "kill the guy on sight" camp, here

Can I put landmines around my house as well & rig up the shed with some C4? :rolleyes:

stevenmu

Mear wrote:

Reminds me of that Old man in england who was jailed for shooting + killing one of these scumbags who kept breaking into his house..

I think that's Tony Martin you're talking about. The reason he got in so much trouble was because he shot the guy in the back while he was running away.

Seamus wrote:

In the US, people who wield guns for protection, more often than not have the weapon turned and used against them by their assailant.

I've seen statistics saying this but I've also seen statistics saying the exact opposite. The gun-rights and gun-control lobbies both seem to have very very inventive statasticians, but for whatever reason we only really get to hear the gun-control lobby's side of things over here and people seem to automatically dismiss gun-rights advocates as racist right-wing NRA nuts. I have to confess though, I'm starting to lean towards the NRA's viewpoints lately (as far as I know they're not generally racist right-wing extremists). Every week it seems there's more and more stories about people being randomly attacked in the streets and old people being attacked in their homes. It's becoming more and more likely that I'll be attacked for no reason walking through town by some bunch of scumbags, armed with knives, bats and increasingly guns, or have them come into my house to rob or attack me and my family.
It's blatantly obvious that the gardaí are unable to prevent such attacks occuring, in fairness to them they can't be everywhere at once and even when they're called, which is usually after the event, they have to manage with limited resources. I'm sure most of us can't afford bodyguards so that leaves most of us with the option of protecting ourselves. The thing is there's scumbags running around in groups with knives, bats and guns, and us law abiding citizens aren't even allowed carry pepper spray. I guess they call it survival of the fittest because the only chance you have is to run like f*ck. (as a side note at NRA self-defense and gun safety classes they teach that the best way to defend yourself is by not being there). It seems, to me anyway, that all gun/weapon control laws are doing is keeping a means of defence out of the hands of decent law abiding people, while criminals, by definition, aren't being hindered by them in the slightest.

Hagar

stevenmu wrote:

(as far as I know they're not generally racist right-wing extremists)

I would agree with Stevenmu's post except for the point above.
AFAIK the NRA grew out of the ashes of the Ku Klux Klan.
Of course that does not imply that it's members nowadays are racist right-wing extremists but in the past they would almost certainly have been.

luckat

What kind of society have we that this debate can take place?

We should be stopping crime where it starts, and looking at what kind of kids end up burgling (because it's usually kids). Jail doesn't help, because it's hard to get work or make decent friends when you come out of jail.

We need to intervene *early* when kids get into trouble, and use every means we have to turn them to the good path.

I have a friend who works in animal rescue; every time she finds an animal that's been ill-treated, she knows that this is a violent family.

There are a lot of families in this country where life is a nightmare. We really, really need to set up systems where kids can learn a different way, so cruelty and crime don't continue and grow from generation to generation.

The kind of reactive debate on this thread is typical of our way of dealing with things here: "something goes wrong, what do you do", instead of "something's going to go wrong, let's stop it before it happens".

That said, burglars tell me that what turns them off burgling a particular house, given a choice between two houses, is a small yappy dog.

---

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

stevenmu

I'd agree in general, prevention is better than cure. But not all burglers live in abject poverty and not all violent criminals had a violent upbring. By reducing poverty and violence in the home, crime could be reduced but it would still exist. People will still be presented with the need to defend themselves, their families and their properties.

luckat wrote:

We need to intervene *early* when kids get into trouble

The problem with this is who gets to decide to intervene and under what circumstances ? Smacking children is probably soon to be banned in the UK. If I was to smack a hypothetical son/daughter for misbehaving should the government decide that I'm teaching him/her violent ways and intervene ? I might have one set of views on how to raise kids, someone else may have entirely different views, and a third person would have a third set of entirly different views. Who decides which set is right ?

luckat wrote:

What kind of society have we that this debate can take place?

A free one, unfortunatly there are some problems associated with this, but would completly wiping out crime be worth the steps against our freedoms it would require ?

stevenmu

Hagar wrote:

I would agree with Stevenmu's post except for the point above.
AFAIK the NRA grew out of the ashes of the Ku Klux Klan.
Of course that does not imply that it's members nowadays are racist right-wing extremists but in the past they would almost certainly have been.

I don't really know anything about their beginnings, but as you allow I'm sure they're not all right-wing extremists these days, altough I'm equally sure they do attract a few. But then the catholic church attracts a few paedophiles and we don't call that a paedophile ring. And boards attracts plenty of drug users but we don't say it's a cover for an international drugs cartel

Victor

"Should we be allowed to use force to protect our homes?"

Should we be allowed murder paramedics who break into the wrong house trying to rescue grandad who's having a heart attack?

entropi

Force .. oh yes indeed !!

it don't happen too much round where i live coz ppl already know what will happen to them if they try to rob someone's place / stuff

I would like this to happen 100% if it was in a referendum we were voting on or something similar.

skywalker

Victor wrote:

"Should we be allowed to use force to protect our homes?"

Should we be allowed murder paramedics who break into the wrong house trying to rescue grandad who's having a heart attack?

how many times has that happened recently? is that really the best contribution you could make? I mean we could all make up unlikely scenarios to twist the original question, its not really relevent though is it.

stevenmu

Victor wrote:

"Should we be allowed to use force to protect our homes?"

Should we be allowed murder paramedics who break into the wrong house trying to rescue grandad who's having a heart attack?

All people can do is act on the best information available to them at the time. If somebody breaks into your house are you going to ask them are they a paramedic or why are there, thus giving them the chance to strike first ?

In general I think anybody with a valid reason to break into your house (paramedics, gardaí etc) will knock or ring first and when they do come in they'll call out to make their presence known.

Renegade_Archer

Its not just a house. Its a home, where you and your family live. God knows what these scumbags are capable of, if they have already broken in, harming you and your own is the next step. Id have no qualms about shooting them dead. Rather them than me.

d22ontour

why not kick the living daylights out of them and dump them outside off your property

homerhop

I caught a guy in my fathers car at 1am. Broke my knuckles off his head.It was a guy who lived 5 doors from me. He went to the police the following day and pressed charges of assault.My girlfriend was harrased and told she was going to be raped by members of his family . Now as for seeing the root of his problems.... This guy since he was a kid could do no wrong in his parents eyes he was constantly in trouble,and dare anyone ever say anything to this little darling.
The assault charges were droped when I made it quiet clear to him that he would be spending a long time in hospital if he contined. Intimidation yes but my family and neighbours had to put up with it for months from him and his friends

Now he crosses the road when he walks by my home place, because I told him I would do him in if I ever caught him outside my home again,and the few elderly people in the area have not had any trouble since. I have moved from my homeplace since and was talking to the garda who deals with our area and his comments on it wes that the peope from my area then to deal with these type of things themselves so he never has much hassle there.
So yes you should be able to protect uour property and family with force when necessary.
When this happened I had never been in trouble with the law, and have not since. I bother nobody once they pay me the same respect.

Idbatterim

I think your outlook on this topic depends on if you have been a victim of such or related crime before, i live at home and while weve never been burgled we have had tyres slashed, cars robbed, camper burned out. I dont have any time for the scum, im not personally sure if id kill them but it wouldnt be far off. My dad caught a few young guys trying to rob our car a few years back and beat the **** out of them, one guy he got down on the ground got him by the hair and continously hit his head off the tarmacadam! People take too much crap here, its one law for you and i and another for the scum. The one thing is find fascinating is the fact they can sue you while on your premises for injuring themselves, i mean whoever said "the laws an ass" sure was right!

elivsvonchiaing

I've never been a victim of anything since I was 13 - just a minor bashing tbh! Since then I think I have the 1000 yard stare - and just don''t get hassled tbh!

I now feel I somehow just don't fit the victim profile, and get passed-over by perps - even when I'm drunk as a skunk!

I also suspect I have the inability to not be perceived as a complete psycho :eek: I wouldn't change this for anything tbh!

If I found an intruder in my home that I didn't know, that threatened my life, that I had to defend myself against and ended-up killing; I'd feel no guilt about saving a lock of hair for his ma, and cremating the cúnt. The idea of going to Gardai given our present laws would not be an option.

I don't think I just speak for myself here... If Tony Martin visits Dublin, I for one will buy the man a pint or several, hope someone else would spot him the hotel, flight etc. Think he should keep a low profile - or have to drink 2,000 pints or something!

I concede there may be those that disagree. I can't help it if my opinions stinks!