U2 Mime on Jonathan Ross !!

Conspiracy

Doctor J wrote:

Didn't see it and honestly don't care enough to bother hunting it down. It's not a big deal. What I find hard to understand is how one second you're gutted and next they've been on the corporate bloodwagon for 15 years?

The music business is all about selling out. That's how it works. Really, I thought everybody knew

That says it all about you Doc J !!!!!
Need I say any more?

Of course I must

Tell me this. Where did I say the following statement????

You have misquoted me over and over again in this thread. Once - just once, I'm gonna pull you up on it. Where did I say this:

What I find hard to understand is how one second you're gutted and next they've been on the corporate bloodwagon for 15 years?

Phil_321

Conspiracy wrote:

Dublinario, where should I start.
Eh,...No. I have said repeatedly that I don't begrudge them anything. I have a problem when they present themselves as something they are not.

And that is?

Noooooooo !!!!! He WAS. Now, he is not - and that's the issue. HE WAS - Now he is not !!!

So, he's not as good a singer as he was..... What's the big deal there, as has been said already he's getting older. Are you criticising Bono for ageing???

........ The Edge's guitar playing.......

I'll say nothing !!!

The Edge is a great guitar player with an excellent ear for melody and he's come up with some very innovative stuff over the years. He's not a shredder, so what? He's more of an artist than a technician. And as a producer/engineer you should be able to appreciate more than most, the Edge's guitar work, and the general production standard of U2's albums, in particular Achtung Baby.

dublinario

First of all, I would just like to reaffirm my earlier sentiment that I am not a big fan of U2 (I only have about 2 or 3 of their albums), lest my posting be misconstrued as that of a blinkered zealot.

Conspiracy wrote:

Dublinario, where should I start.
I find myself defending my point again and again with different people. Has anyone read the full thread or are they simply reading 3 posts and then replying angrily????????

I have read the whole thread Conspiracy. A lot of my mail wasn't directed at you specifically, because I know you, more than most, have endeavored to explain your animosity. And yet, just because you aren't one of the w*nkers saying "I wish Bono would die", I would still argue that you are motivated by begrudgery at some level. If not, why do you even care? Why do you care what Bono says or does at all? Why does it irk you? I know you can say "well, I don't really care, actually, I'm just making conversation", but there seems to be a zealous fervour behind yours and other postings, and I can't see any rational fuel for this fervour, so I look to the irrational, and find Begrudgery to be the only candidate.

You say your beef stems from hatred of U2's contrived nature, that they are pretending to be something they aren't. I just can't fathom this logic. You are angry at them because they aren't exactly as you think they should be. Why should they fit your imaginary mould?

You say that this single performance on Johnathon Ross has negated all the love you garnered for them from their previous two decades of scintillating live performances. How the f*ck, in the name of all that is holy, can the fact that a couple of segments of a song were mimed on a stupid TV chat show, negate 20 years of touring; live performances that you admit were of very high quality? How can anybody make that statement with a straight face, that a few seconds miming (not even the whole song!) negates an entire career of live singing? I'll tell you how. Because deep down, you are a begrudger, and you have merely found an excuse to promulgate your begrudgery to the masses.

The only difference between you and the "I wish he was dead" brigade, is that the latter lack the musical nous to express their begrudgery articulately. You on the other hand, are quite obviously erudite in the field of music, and hence can deliver a more convincing argument wherein you savage (relatively) insignificant flaws in the U2 facade. But for me, there is no reasonable motivation for such 'savaging' other than begrudgery.

Conspiracy wrote:

Noooooooo !!!!! He WAS. Now, he is not - and that's the issue. HE WAS - Now he is not !!!

So f*cking what Conspiracy? You act almost as if the effects of the passage of time on Bono is a personal slight against you. He is deteriorating. We all do. I've been to see Bob Dylan twice in the last 4 years, and there is virtually nothing left of his voice. People are not compelled to retire just because they are not what they once were. I'm sure probably everybody on this thread is sick hearing the mantra about Roy Keane (incidentally, I'm a Liverpool fan) not being the player he was, but he is still a class act head and shoulders above almost every other holding midfielder in the premiership. Similarly, a 90% Bono, even a 75% Bono would sing a very great many other singers under the table. Why should be retire?

Conspiracy wrote:

I'll say nothing !!!

You don't have to, your comment says enough. Let me qualify my earlier comment about 'The Edge'. I'm not saying he is Jimi Hendrix. But it is ludicrous to say he is sh*t. Noel Gallagher is sh*t, and believe it or not, there are some even worse again. It's all relative I know, but whilst he may not be the worlds greatest Guitarist, he is unique, talented, and definately not Noel Gallagher.

Doctor J

I have to ask because your initial post says "I'm gutted", which one assumes the evening in question was a let down for you, that you held them in higher regard prior to the performance, yes? So from that we can establish that you held them in some sort of regard, I think that's fair. You also make the point of dance music influences as a definite point on the slide into mediocrity, so we'll say from Achtung Baby on? You say "It's 100% pre-meditated by them as they are actively plugging their album at the moment and would play the local spar if they thought it would sell albums." Isn't that the purpose of releasing albums, that they sell? You harp on about U2 ltd, about how they use marketing to sell albums... yeah, that's right, that's usually what people do. I don't know how many times you mention €750m, what has that got to do with music? You've never seen them live, you've never met Bono yet you have no problem spouting out all this second hand gossip and specualtion, that's not what I'd expect from a music industry professional, though hey, times may have changed. As I said, etiquette is a big part of an engineers job, good engineers know when not to talk ****. Good engineers also know what's involved in putting out an album and the amount of corporate ball playing that is part and parcel of the trade, but this seems to surprise you. It just made me wonder, that's all. Don't get all uppity, just trying to understand why you'd say what you said.

Don't worry about what I have been doing in the music industry, I haven't made any claims about my credentials, suffice to say I remain involved and have learned an awful lot in my 15 years participation, the main lesson was not to **** where I eat. I haven't used anything other than the arguements I put forth here because I don't need to, I didn't harp on about being a multi-instrumentalist too, or being an engineer and a producer as it is totally irrellevant to this discussion. You've made claims to be a professional like it lends weight to your dogma, yet change course in your arguement and make the kind of assumptions I'd expect out of a 15 year old, not a professional who makes a living out of the music industry. As for Edible, I thought it would have been clear to a trained ear that those mp3's are far from produced, as you know, after all you did say "In the late 70's early 80's, not every person could record. If a band were picked out by a record company, money was pumped in - of that be sure. In the late 90's, that all changed with computer aideded audio production. Suddenly, the cost of demos were gone, and it was made even harder to make it." I'm amazed you bothered googling to get some dirt on me, ha ha ha, that's kinds sad really. Stick to U2 and back up what you say with facts, that's all you need to do. This has very little to do with the €750m you seem obsessed with and I fail to see the relevence to U2 miming on a TV show or how you being a sound engineer makes you wise in the way of U2's marketing straegy. Someone in your position should know that marketing is part of the game, it should be expected. Most of your griping has been about marketing, money and surprisingly little about musical content.

Really, it's just that you harp on about €750m. So what? They've made some money over a 25 year career. They're still making money. They mimed on Jonathan Ross's poxy TV show to an audience of maybe 200 goons in the studio. Wow, sell out of the decade, let's burn our U2 cd's, it's the crime of the century. So you feel let down by them miming, but you still respected them enough beforehand, even with their €750m, the previous marketing campaigns, the albums, the videos, the lemons, to feel let down by them miming on a TV show. I mean, they probably had maybe €749m before the show at least. That's just kind of wierd logic. Ah well, I'm sure Bono, lamb of God that he is, doesn't give a ****e now but will no doubt give us a shout out next time he's chatting with the pope and, for that, we can all be grateful

Peace to all God's children

Conspiracy

I was let down by U2's albums from 2000 onwards.

I produce rock, ambient, techno, pop, punk, etc.
Also, I have one of the most diverse musical tastes of all my friends.

My musical background is to illustrate that I have been training for years - and I watch Pop Idol and the like for study purposes.

U2 have successfully pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years - and only because they have money, advertising and contacts behind them.

Noel Gallagher is a far more talented musician than Edge by the way - but that's an opinion. Perhaps you perfer edges style.

Money is Power - they have money. Their music is no longer Great - it's just average - and it's only getting as much publicity because of a)their reputation, and b) their money. If they were a dublin band and the arrived in Sony's offices with some demos of the tracks - I'd imagine they wouldn't get signed. It's just not good enough. However, it's good enough to sell to everyone who's duped by the advertising.

Your personal insults to me such as saying I'm like a 15 year old show the level you must stoop to try make a point. You are simply a sheep - a follower of the herd - and good luck to you. You are now just wasting my time. I've made my point - you will never agree with me, and I most certainly not agree with you.

Regarding googling you - you are naieve to think that that wouldn't happen when you start claiming to know all about the best way to setup a mime band live on tv. Ashlee Simpsons mess up on Saturday Night Live 3 weeks ago shows you are wrong. It took me all of 15 seconds to find you on the web - a small price to see who I was being lectured by !!!!

Outta here - honest work to do

Dcully

WTF ,saying Bono cant sing like he used to?
This album sees his voice at is best.
Read any review and almost all comment on how strong it is in this album.
I didnt see the J Ross show but i have doubts that they mimed.
If so there must have been a damn good reason.
I didnt like this new record at first but after a few listens it is up there with their best and yeah Bonos voice has never been better.

What is it with this country?
We begrudge like no other nation,no other country hate U2 and especially Bono more than this place.
The same can be said of our sports stars,movie stars etc.
Any irish citizen to be successfull are always shot down by their own countrymen and it makes me sick.
We are also one of the most intolerant nations to foreign people which to me stems from the same mentality of lets hate our successfull citizens.
The mind boggles!

Doctor J

Conspiracy wrote:

Regarding googling you - you are naieve to think that that wouldn't happen when you start claiming to know all about the best way to setup a mime band live on tv. Ashlee Simpsons mess up on Saturday Night Live 3 weeks ago shows you are wrong. It took me all of 15 seconds to find you on the web - a small price to see who I was being lectured by !!!!

Hmmm, this is a place for debate and exchange of opinions, of which everybody is entitled to their own, I must say I've never felt the urge to google anybody. I apologise if I offended you, I was merely puzzled by statments such as "Also you think the band mimed? I don't. Just the singer. And that is the least hassell in a tv studio - a microphone. Done on purpose, done to decieve, end of story."

Would it not be easier to get everyone to mime rather than sync live with mime (as was the case with Ashlee which shows how easy it is to get wrong)... even off hard disk?

Twas nothing personal, just trying to figure out what your gripe was. Reading your posts you seem to go from a fan to a dedicated hater over the course of a mimed TV show and then go on about €750 for some reason. Ah well. Good luck with the engineering.

Bungalow Bill

Dcully wrote:

WTF ,saying Bono cant sing like he used to?
This album sees his voice at is best.
Read any review and almost all comment on how strong it is in this album.
I didnt see the J Ross show but i have doubts that they mimed.
If so there must have been a damn good reason.
I didnt like this new record at first but after a few listens it is up there with their best and yeah Bonos voice has never been better.

What is it with this country?
We begrudge like no other nation,no other country hate U2 and especially Bono more than this place.
The same can be said of our sports stars,movie stars etc.
Any irish citizen to be successfull are always shot down by their own countrymen and it makes me sick.
We are also one of the most intolerant nations to foreign people which to me stems from the same mentality of lets hate our successfull citizens.
The mind boggles!

Its true, this is a strange thread and I am yet to hear a valid argument towards peoples dislike of Bono and/or U2, and most of the original posters have gone appropriately quiet. I watched the performance and I am normally pretty good at picking out people miming. The band were definitely playing their instruments. It was certainly not the album vocal track that was used on Bono's voice. So either they did as some suggested, a pre-recorded vocal and covered it up VERY well or Bono was actually singing. I certainly had no suspicion while watching and I really think its a bit of a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation.
On the new album I think Bono's voice is fantastic in 'Original of the species', towards the end of 'All because of you' and 'Sometimes you can't make it on your own' especially, but it really is a great album. Maybe it isn't as good as some of their older stuff but i'd still much rather listen to it than Franz Ferdinand or Snow patrol or scissor scistors or most of the highly-acclaimed artists out these days, which after 25 years is quite a feat.(Have you heard St. Anger!)

Dcully

Its true, this is a strange thread and I am yet to hear a valid argument towards peoples dislike of Bono and/or U2, and most of the original posters have gone appropriately quiet. I watched the performance and I am normally pretty good at picking out people miming. The band were definitely playing their instruments. It was certainly not the album vocal track that was used on Bono's voice. So either they did as some suggested, a pre-recorded vocal and covered it up VERY well or Bono was actually singing. I certainly had no suspicion while watching and I really think its a bit of a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation.

Well said.

Maybe Conspiracy should add a "to slag off and insult U2 and their fans" after his nick.

Sister Ray

Wow... just signed up to this forum... that's some discussion going
on here!

I have seen U2's performance on Jonathan Ross, and I also noticed
that they're miming... and felt dissapointed too.

Over the last few years, my patience with Bono has slowly run out. From
one of Rock & Roll's most excellent live performers, a man who always
gave 100% to the crowd (watch Rock am Ring 1983!), he's become a
self-indulgent twat, who has now stopped giving **** all to his audience...

Remember that as a performer, giving something to your audience means that
you're either completely yourself, or you can just pull off a great act. Bono
doesn't do either of them anymore...
By miming, his act seems only worse, and I feel like he's given me nothing.

Some here would argue that he really does a lot for the 3rd world. Maybe
that's true. But also true is the fact that every time Bono is pictured with
Coffee Anan, or the Pope, U2 probably sells 10.000 records because of the
appearance...
Another fact is that the Pope is a person who's mind is completely frozen by
his religion. That ****face still preaches that all means of birth-prevention
are a sin, and should not be practised. Great news in a world where every
year 3 million people (more than half the population of the Irish Republic) die
from AIDS, people that live in regions that are also exploding from over-
population. Yes, indeed great that Bono's good friends with the man, isn't it?
If he were that much a hero, he'd either refuse to go and see the pope, or
he'd give him a public lecturing. That would be Rock and Roll!

I'd also like to make some comments on the U2's music:
1) The last 2 albums are a pittyful repetition of something that was a lot
better over 15 years ago. It may sound good (it does indeed, because
that's what a big budget can do for you), but if you don't try to push at least
some boundaries every record you make, I cannot consider it good.
U2 have stopped pushing boundaries (at least for now), and to me, that
makes them a bunch of lazy ****ers, who only seem to bring out a new
album to get in some extra cash. For me, ZOO TV was the last album where
they tried something new. My opinion of the reason why doesn't matter here,
it is different and they have to be credited for that.
2) There's nothing great about Edge's guitar playing, or the things he has
'come up with'. If you hit one note into a massive stack of delay-units that
are locked to the track, hey, everybody can play guitar (as long as you hit the
right notes). This has nothing to do with keeping it simple, but just with not
being able to play anything else (after 20+ years of being in the band!!).
Thurston Moore (Sonic Youth) masters the art of playing simple, but doesn't
need 15 delay lines to transfer the emotion to you.
U2's sound needs those 15 delays for it's own particular emotion, and there's
still nothing wrong with that. But there ain't nothing particularly good about it
either!
3) Bono and artistic integrity? Gone. Doesn't matter, but then don't market
the image of "Biggest Band in The World" anymore, because in my opinion,
artistic integrity is very relevant if you're the biggest band in the world. Sorry,
there's no way around that. That's the least I'm allowed to expect.
4) I repeat this, but I think it's important: If something sounds good, it
doesn't necessarely mean that it's good music. I think many people are taken
by the huge sound that U2 constantly manage to generate. That's mainly
down to a good engineering, not to great song-writing. Song-writing does
hardly have an effect on the final sound of an album. Arrangement does,
but that's not necessarely the artist's job.
5) Bono sings his tracks trough a 57. Lot of crap. The 57 is indeed there, but
the 10000 yippos of Manley, Neve etc. are there to to sweeten it up. A recording
engineer chooses the right microphone for the job. In a feedback-prone environment,
the 57 is outstanding. So in my opinion, there's nothing 'amazingly artistic'
about this.

And last but not least: I'm sick and tired of seeing Bono's head everywere
and everytime. Contrary of what he tries to make me believe in his media
appearances, he's not my Personal Jesus. You might argue that I should then
switch off the TV, but at the current rate of appearance that would mean a
lot of switching off. The solution to that could be much simpler, and would
remove the need for me to incur RSI to my thumb.

My conclusion of this all: If you're defending U2, you're defending the past.
No value can be attached to the product today, except for the marketing
genious and financial backing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Big up to all the real bands in the world, you know who you are and why.
The same goes for all the not so real bands!

Phil_321

Sister Ray wrote:

Wow... just signed up to this forum... that's some discussion going
on here!

Wow! That's some post for a first post Conspirac....sorry I mean Sister Ray.



Please refrain from creating additional accounts to back your arguments up.

Bungalow Bill

Sister Ray wrote:

Wow... just signed up to this forum... that's some discussion going
on here!

I have seen U2's performance on Jonathan Ross, and I also noticed
that they're miming... and felt dissapointed too.

Over the last few years, my patience with Bono has slowly run out. From
one of Rock & Roll's most excellent live performers, a man who always
gave 100% to the crowd (watch Rock am Ring 1983!), he's become a
self-indulgent twat, who has now stopped giving **** all to his audience...

Remember that as a performer, giving something to your audience means that
you're either completely yourself, or you can just pull off a great act. Bono
doesn't do either of them anymore...
By miming, his act seems only worse, and I feel like he's given me nothing.

Some here would argue that he really does a lot for the 3rd world. Maybe
that's true. But also true is the fact that every time Bono is pictured with
Coffee Anan, or the Pope, U2 probably sells 10.000 records because of the
appearance...
Another fact is that the Pope is a person who's mind is completely frozen by
his religion. That ****face still preaches that all means of birth-prevention
are a sin, and should not be practised. Great news in a world where every
year 3 million people (more than half the population of the Irish Republic) die
from AIDS, people that live in regions that are also exploding from over-
population. Yes, indeed great that Bono's good friends with the man, isn't it?
If he were that much a hero, he'd either refuse to go and see the pope, or
he'd give him a public lecturing. That would be Rock and Roll!

I'd also like to make some comments on the U2's music:
1) The last 2 albums are a pittyful repetition of something that was a lot
better over 15 years ago. It may sound good (it does indeed, because
that's what a big budget can do for you), but if you don't try to push at least
some boundaries every record you make, I cannot consider it good.
U2 have stopped pushing boundaries (at least for now), and to me, that
makes them a bunch of lazy ****ers, who only seem to bring out a new
album to get in some extra cash. For me, ZOO TV was the last album where
they tried something new. My opinion of the reason why doesn't matter here,
it is different and they have to be credited for that.
2) There's nothing great about Edge's guitar playing, or the things he has
'come up with'. If you hit one note into a massive stack of delay-units that
are locked to the track, hey, everybody can play guitar (as long as you hit the
right notes). This has nothing to do with keeping it simple, but just with not
being able to play anything else (after 20+ years of being in the band!!).
Thurston Moore (Sonic Youth) masters the art of playing simple, but doesn't
need 15 delay lines to transfer the emotion to you.
U2's sound needs those 15 delays for it's own particular emotion, and there's
still nothing wrong with that. But there ain't nothing particularly good about it
either!
3) Bono and artistic integrity? Gone. Doesn't matter, but then don't market
the image of "Biggest Band in The World" anymore, because in my opinion,
artistic integrity is very relevant if you're the biggest band in the world. Sorry,
there's no way around that. That's the least I'm allowed to expect.
4) I repeat this, but I think it's important: If something sounds good, it
doesn't necessarely mean that it's good music. I think many people are taken
by the huge sound that U2 constantly manage to generate. That's mainly
down to a good engineering, not to great song-writing. Song-writing does
hardly have an effect on the final sound of an album. Arrangement does,
but that's not necessarely the artist's job.
5) Bono sings his tracks trough a 57. Lot of crap. The 57 is indeed there, but
the 10000 yippos of Manley, Neve etc. are there to to sweeten it up. A recording
engineer chooses the right microphone for the job. In a feedback-prone environment,
the 57 is outstanding. So in my opinion, there's nothing 'amazingly artistic'
about this.

And last but not least: I'm sick and tired of seeing Bono's head everywere
and everytime. Contrary of what he tries to make me believe in his media
appearances, he's not my Personal Jesus. You might argue that I should then
switch off the TV, but at the current rate of appearance that would mean a
lot of switching off. The solution to that could be much simpler, and would
remove the need for me to incur RSI to my thumb.

My conclusion of this all: If you're defending U2, you're defending the past.
No value can be attached to the product today, except for the marketing
genious and financial backing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Big up to all the real bands in the world, you know who you are and why.
The same goes for all the not so real bands!

Firstly welcome to boards, if I am mean to you it is simply because I am so nice in real life that my alter ego can be a real as$!
Now you're telling me that the songs are crap and that my silly brain cannot separate good songs from production, but thats just plain wrong. There is no mega production on 'A man and a woman' and thats my favourite track off the album. I also sincerly believe that stripped down versions of 'Original of the species', and 'Sometimes you can't make it on your own' would still sound great. Other songs like 'Vertigo' and Miracle Drug' are too big and require great production, and they sound brilliant but i really do like the songs!

Conspiracy

Phil 321,

Wow! That's some post for a first post Conspirac....sorry I mean Sister Ray.
Please refrain from creating additional accounts to back your arguments up.

Nice conclusion you idiot.

I suggest contacting a mod and asking him to contact Sister Ray.
My IP is fixed here - the mod will confirm that.
I have been in my room all evening you twat.

Because I am so sure that it is not me, I can safely call you and idiot !!

Also - acting like a moderator is not cool. You have no authority to say what you said to me and upon this being sorted out, I expect an apology for your false accusation.

I will also contact a mod myself.
It has been hard enough to defend myself from all the attacks on this thread (which I'm totally up for), but to have you accuse me of something that would make me look totally stupid makes my case look weaker.

I've been a mod on big forums before, and double accounts is a stupid idea.

You ignorant fool.

Phil_321

Conspiracy wrote:

Phil 321,

Wow! That's some post for a first post Conspirac....sorry I mean Sister Ray.
Please refrain from creating additional accounts to back your arguments up.

Nice conclusion you idiot.

I suggest contacting a mod and asking him to contact Sister Ray.
My IP is fixed here - the mod will confirm that.
I have been in my room all evening you twat.

Because I am so sure that it is not me, I can safely call you and idiot !!

Also - acting like a moderator is not cool. You have no authority to say what you said to me and upon this being sorted out, I expect an apology for your false accusation.

I will also contact a mod myself.
It has been hard enough to defend myself from all the attacks on this thread (which I'm totally up for), but to have you accuse me of something that would make me look totally stupid makes my case look weaker.

I've been a mod on big forums before, and double accounts is a stupid idea.

You ignorant fool.

Methinks the lady doth protest to much. Lol!!!!


1.) I was watching the green login status and Sister Ray was logged on while Conspiracy wasn't. Lo and behold, I look again and it's the opposite, Sister Ray's off and Conspiracy's on.



2.) Sister Ray seems to know his/her way around the studio fairly well:
"Bono sings his tracks trough a 57. Lot of crap. The 57 is indeed there, but
the 10000 yippos of Manley, Neve etc. are there to to sweeten it up. A recording engineer chooses the right microphone for the job. In a feedback-prone environment, the 57 is outstanding."

So it seems Sister Ray is a recording engineer..... what did you say your job was again?



3.) That Sister Ray post is exactly the kind of follow-up I would have expected from your original Conspiracy account.
For example:
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at U2's last two albums.
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at the Edge's guitar playing.
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at Bono's artistic integrity.



4.) That was a bit too in-depth for a first post, don't you think. If you were going to pull this off proplerly you should have just posted a quick paragraph and held the big post back for a rebuttal. It would have looked more natural. Anyway you'll know how to do it in future.

Conspiracy

Phil,

You truly are a twat.

Watching logos.
As I said - I'm in my room - on a fixed IP with Netsource you stupid ****.

And to Sugar Ray - it's an Sm58, not a 57 !

Flame away you idiot - I've reported the above flame, and I'm reporting this one too.

As said - I expect an apology once you realise you are completely 100% wrong you dumb ****.

Phil_321

Conspiracy wrote:

Phil, You truly are a twat
you dumb ****
you stupid ****
You ignorant fool

Sorry, but you're the one about to get banned for this. Personal insults are not allowed.

Slutmonkey57b

Well as expected the thread descends into sh!t.

Conspiracy, you still haven't answered my first question, which was:
Would you turn away money from someone you didn't approve of?
I'm sure you'd like to think you wouldn't. But I'm equally sure you have bills to pay like the rest of us. Or if you don't the people who work with you might. Or, even more likely, you might get the opportunity to get well known off the back of a piece of work with someone you've no respect for. Would you still turn the opportunity down?

And to the "i'm sick of Bono" brigade, some paraphrased quotes: (they're in the latest issue of the toilet paper rag the Dubliner if you're interested)
On ubiquity:
"Lots of people tell me they're sick of seeing my face on the TV. Hell, IM Bono and I'm sick of Bono"
On being seen with dodgy grinning money-laden guys on the Drop the Debt:
"I've had to stand and shake the hand of people who make me sick to my stomach. I'm not going to name them because we have to keep working with these people. Edge asks me how I can do it. I told him I'd go anywhere and meet anyone to get this money off them"
On meeting the Pope:
"I hope nobody's told this guy I'm not a Catholic"
So it's not like he's not aware of it.

To prove he's a better man than I am, I'll give you an example:
As a militant athiest I'd rather eat my own vomit than be in the same room as the pope, because the pope is a very obvious asshole and represents the scum of the universe, never mind the fact that he heads up a religion. If someone said to me, Go over there, grin like a sh!t eater, make some glib comment, shake his hand and get your photograph taken, and we'll save 10,000 starving kids with the money we'll get, my answer would be:
"**** the starving kids, I'm not doing it"
or to be "rock and roll" about it like Sister Ray would like, I could go up there, grin like a sh!t eater, spit on my hand, call the guy a fascist ****, and give the finger to the camera while grabbing my leather - clad crotch.

In neither scenario does the starving kid get saved - but at least I don't betray my principles. So I've got "integrity".

On the miming issue, here's a technical question:
Is the Jonathon Ross show live? Broadcast with a delay? Here's a possibility:
Band plays live, but is overdubbed for transmission. Looks like miming, no?
Again, a couple of emails to the show and to U2 would probably get an answer. But noooo.

As to "Noel Gallagher is talanted". Well. Where to start with that. A man who made a brief living in a Beatles cover band. Not a very good one at that.

Slutmonkey57b

Sister Ray wrote:

Over the last few years, my patience with Bono has slowly run out. From
one of Rock & Roll's most excellent live performers, a man who always
gave 100% to the crowd (watch Rock am Ring 1983!), he's become a
self-indulgent twat, who has now stopped giving **** all to his audience...

Remember that as a performer, giving something to your audience means that
you're either completely yourself, or you can just pull off a great act. Bono
doesn't do either of them anymore...
By miming, his act seems only worse, and I feel like he's given me nothing.

Rebuttal:
Slane. Weekend after his Dad died. Could have cancelled the whole thing, left 160,000 people up the creek, seen no effect on his wallet or CD sales, but he didn't. He turned up anyway, and poured his heart out to the crowd. Exactly what does the man owe you again?

Perfect Rebuttal (ie Simpsons quote off the top of the head)
Comic Book Guy (you): Needless to say I was on the Internet in moments registering my displeasure around the world.
Bart (me): But these people have given you hours of entertainment, they've made you laugh, they've made your life a richer place. Surely YOU owe THEM?
Comic Book Guy (you): I repeat. Worst. Episode. Evvveeeeerrrr.

Dcully

Without trying to make this thread worse than it already is.
My god conspiracy what a fool you have made of yourself from every possible angle but worst of all no matter what your opinion is you have no right to abuse people with pathetic namecalling.
While i dont moderate this forum i will be keeping an eye on it to make sure you get your well deserved permanent ban.
The true sign of someones personality is when they are loosing a simple debate they turn it into an insult fest.
You mr conspiracy dont deserve to have net access if this thread has anything to go by.
I suggest you go get a life and dont go to such extremes to try and force your opinions down peoples throats.

Blackjack

U2 Rock!
Best tune - 11 o'clock tick tock from Under a Blood red Sky.

I couldn't give a rats ass if they are sell outs, Mime on a TV show etc or annoy the crap out of me at times with various annoying bits. I like their Music, have most of their Albums (because I like their Music) and they have entertained me greatly for about 20 years now, well worth every cent of their 750 Million.
I couldn't say the same for many bands because there are very few that have remained in the mainstream and popular for so long (which, incidentally is why U2 are so wealthy). There are some, but not very many that can compare to them.

tj-music.com

for what its worth - Conspiracy and Doctor J have brought me at least a full hour of interesting, and to some extend rather bizarre, entertainment.

Thank you for that!

eoin5

Ahhhh, whats going on here? Is it really that important if there miming or not? Such a small little thing, Its not like hes off selling drugs the the homeless... hell pink floyd mimed in their early days (except cid who just didnt bother opening his mouth), and after that they made the best music I know. I like the new album, has a different, more rocky feel while retaining the old sounds (except for the one that sounds like a george michael track). Cant say its original or ground breaking but i wont disown U2 over it.

Quick dedication: Ring of fire by Johnny Cash.

Stop Flaming!!


Why can't we all just get along?

Magnolia_Fan

Bono's not an idiot...He's just trying to add to his image with his "humanatarian" work it all adds to the enigma and his big fat ego...just my opinion

Magnolia_Fan

I'm sure somebody else has probably said this but what in the hell has happened to U2's Lyrics!?.."A Mole Diggin in a hole....etc." and now "Vertico", I thought Beautiful Day was a great song due to its simplicity but I can't say I've been a huge fan of anything else on any of their recent albums.

Sister Ray

Sorry people, would like to have been here earlier, could probably have
prevented some of the flaming that's going on now.

I am NOT Conspiracy.

Why such a big 1st post?
Because I like writing big posts, it hones my writing & discussion skills.
Because when I start to write, I tend to write more than I originally planned.
Because I do have a problem with the media-spoonfeeding of the U2
and Bono products.
Because after reading the thread, I was quite inspired to put all of the
above, and a bit more to 'paper'.
Because I felt some compassion for Conspiracy. I think he's been hard done
by some of the replies. In my opinion, a lot of his arguments are right.

Now, can I go on and live my own life on this board?

Originally posted by Phil_321
Wow! That's some post for a first post Conspirac....sorry I mean Sister Ray.

Please refrain from creating additional accounts to back your arguments up.

Below the belt mate!

Originally posted by Phil_321
Firstly welcome to boards, if I am mean to you it is simply because I am so nice in real life that my alter ego can be a real as$!

Thanks, but you just kicked me below the belt. So you can keep your
welcome to yourself, because apparently it doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by Phil_321
Now you're telling me that the songs are crap and that my silly brain cannot separate good songs from production, but thats just plain wrong. There is no mega production on 'A man and a woman' and thats my favourite track off the album. I also sincerly believe that stripped down versions of 'Original of the species', and 'Sometimes you can't make it on your own' would still sound great. Other songs like 'Vertigo' and Miracle Drug' are too big and require great production, and they sound brilliant but i really do like the songs!

Good for you. I was just trying to make a point. I've had this discussion
with before, and many people do confuse great sounding songs with great
songs. Apparently you don't, so my argument didn't apply for you.

Originally posted by Phil_321
Methinks the lady doth protest to much. Lol!!!!

1.) I was watching the green login status and Sister Ray was logged on while Conspiracy wasn't. Lo and behold, I look again and it's the opposite, Sister Ray's off and Conspiracy's on.

2.) Sister Ray seems to know his/her way around the studio fairly well:
"Bono sings his tracks trough a 57. Lot of crap. The 57 is indeed there, but
the 10000 yippos of Manley, Neve etc. are there to to sweeten it up. A recording engineer chooses the right microphone for the job. In a feedback-prone environment, the 57 is outstanding."

So it seems Sister Ray is a recording engineer..... what did you say your job was again?

3.) That Sister Ray post is exactly the kind of follow-up I would have expected from your original Conspiracy account.
For example:
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at U2's last two albums.
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at the Edge's guitar playing.
Sister Ray, like yourself, specifically had a go at Bono's artistic integrity.

4.) That was a bit too in-depth for a first post, don't you think. If you were going to pull this off proplerly you should have just posted a quick paragraph and held the big post back for a rebuttal. It would have looked more natural. Anyway you'll know how to do it in future.

1) I'm not even going to entertain a comment on this one.
2) Sister Ray is indeed a recording engineer. Seems that the average
recording engineer has a problem with U2/Bono, hahaha!
3) Surely I have a go at the last few albums. They just don't cut it anymore.
I've explained why in my previous post. Good enough argument for me.
About having a go at Bono's artistic integrity: Yes, yes, yes! I really think
we should be allowed to expect some, and I can't find any (anymore).
About the Edge's guitar playing? There's another 100 engineers waiting
in line that are really annoyed by many people's idea that there's anything
particularly good to it.
4) No it wasn't too in depth. Why would it be. I was never planning to join
this board, as with my writing style, you can't be member of too many
boards before it starts making an impact on productivity in your daily life
But I thought this discussion was really interesting, and I felt strong about my
own opinion, so I decided to give it a go. I do kind of feel the same way
Conspiracy does on many parts of this isssue, must be because we're in the
same line of business.

Again, thanks for the warm and fair welcome.

To Slutmonkey57b:
OK, U2 played Slane in that particular week. Bono has to be admired for that.
Don't think however, that it wouldn't have made a difference to his wallet.
160000 t-shirt and cd buying people do impact your wallet, even if you're
already as rich as U2 are, and even if the insurance pays up the loss on the
gates.

Does U2 owe me anything? Not really. Except that they market themselves
as the biggest band in the world. Audiences should expect to get 100%
live from such a band. That's my humble opinion. To me this is one of the
reasons why the music industry has become what it is now: Too many
people accept mediocrity. This has a negative impact on the average quality
of the product. In any market model it works like this, it does in music too.
Hey, how many people have stated in this thread that they don't mind if
U2 mime or not?
Being the biggest band in the world should bring a responsibility to transcend
mediocrity. By miming I feel U2 have descended into it. Again, my humble
opinion.

Back to the techicality of miming on Jonathan Ross. It surely is possible that
Bono's voice was re-tracked after the performance (It is easier to do it the
other way around though). I don't believe that show goes straight on air. But
it comes down to the same thing: Somewhere, somebody took the executive
decision not to air a live Bono vocal.

Phil_321

Sister Ray wrote:

I am NOT Conspiracy

Whatever you say......

Thanks, but you just kicked me below the belt. So you can keep your
welcome to yourself, because apparently it doesn't mean anything.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never "welcomed" you to boards, you've attributed two paragraphs posted by Bungalow Bill to me.

Doctor J

Ahhh enough of this nonsense, please.

Bungalow Bill

Ok, fair enough sister ray, although I don't appreciate your misquoting of things I said against someone else.
Most of your argument is based on the fact that you believe U2 have descended into mediocrity and that they are trying to make people believe that they are still the band that you believe they once were.
Maybe that applies to you, but I happen to really like the last two albums. And guess what? I'm not the only one, the majority of U2 fans all over the world have too. They like the new stuff, and of course long-standing fans can tell the difference between a well-produced bad song and a good one. Its ignorant to think that you are the only one.
Fact is that they are still the most popular band on the planet, and for good reason, because they would have been found out by now. Hope to see ye at croker

dublinario

I have to agree with Bungalo Bill. Personally, like Sister Ray, I usually like to put huge postings up when involved in a discussion, but I'm going to opt for brevity here, because I kind of get the feeling this thread is winding down a bit, which probably isn't a bad thing. But I think Sister Ray and Conspiracy are definately indulging in a spot of smug Elitism stemming from their line of work.

It is both highly condescending and massively patronising to suggest that every music fan, who does not happen to be a Sound Engineer, is so gullible, naive and ignorant, that they are easily duped into liking a crap song by production techniques. Taking this logic to the nth degree, only Sound Engineers can appreciate and discern good music. This is patently nonsense, and both elitism and snobbery of the highest order. Personally, I would argue that, if anything, a Musician moreso than a Sound Engineer would be the only person capable of discerning whether a song truly has merit beneath the layers of production, but I wouldn't even put any stock in that line of thinking.

Get over yourself lads, and realise that you are insulting the intelligence of a massive body of people when you imply that they all collectively have an underdeveloped appreciation of music. As Bob Dylan said, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the Wind Blows".

nesthead

it doesnt matter what U2 did... its what they are doing now.

of course they had to mime the song, the guitar is layered about 10 times! same goes for the vocals

Conspiracy

Personally, I would argue that, if anything, a Musician moreso than a Sound Engineer would be the only person capable of discerning whether a song truly has merit beneath the layers of production, but I wouldn't even put any stock in that line of thinking.

Thanks - I am an engineer, producer, and a very good musician. I wouldn't try to judge u2 or any band if I wasn't 100% confident in that.

**************************************************************
This is my first time ever on an irish board.

As an Irishman, I'm ashamed to see the way people flame in this country.
I've been involved in heated debates all over the world - but never have I seen so many personal attacks on people in my life as I saw in this one thread.

Flagrant accusations about double accounts, people comparing fully grown adults to 15 year olds - and such other ridiculus comments that cannot be backed up such as :"Maybe that applies to you, but I happen to really like the last two albums. And guess what? I'm not the only one, the majority of U2 fans all over the world have too.".
An utterly useless unsubstantiated comment if ever there was one. No figures or basis for it - but "it sounded good" !!! Useless comment!!!!

I've always found web forums a place that people say things that they wouldn't normally say if someone knew their true identity. Many people on this forum display all the traits of the Ireland that I dislike - the people that make others say "I hate this country" - and every person considers themselves an expert in things they have no clue about. Given that we are a little USA in nearly all senses of the comparison, you are the citizens that have the wool pulled over your eyes but believe you know better because you are driven by emotion rather than sound logic and evidence.

Settle for less, and thats your standards???!!!! Good luck to you - your life will be so so rich as a conseqense of that type of decision - not !

And as many of you have said - perhaps you are right. I will probably make a lot of money off of you all by pulling the wool over your eyes in the future!!
I didn't believe that it was so easy to fool people - but I'm now convinced that you can sell anything to most people because they have no standards.

Keep paying for the monkeys people ! Because monkeys is exactly what you are getting.

Good luck to you all - you'll need it

Third_Echelon

^^^ yawn. Get over yourself Conspiracy. From reading your posts, it does sound like 'oh im a sound engineer/musician, so i should know best'.... BS my friend :rolleyes:

Maths I find, usually sorts these things out...

Let use equations..

I buy good music

good music = U2

problem solved.

The end. :rolleyes:

Conspiracy

Third_Echelon wrote:

Maths I find, usually sorts these things out...
Let use equations..
I buy good music
good music = U2
problem solved.

Such sound logic - and as a calculus head - I have to say you've backed up my point completely - unsubstantiated waffle that means nothing !!!!

THAT WAS NOT MATHS ! WHY WOULD YOU SAY IT IS MATHS???
Do you not know what maths is ? Or are you just pretending to be intelligent?

Third_Echelon

Conspiracy wrote:

Such sound logic - and as a calculus head - I have to say you've backed up my point completely - unsubstantiated waffle that means nothing !!!!

THAT WAS NOT MATHS ! WHY WOULD YOU SAY IT IS MATHS???
Do you not know what maths is ? Or are you just pretending to be intelligent?

was the some self reflection their con?

touche :rolleyes:

Slutmonkey57b

Conspiracy, you're a boring troll. Drop it.

Conspiracy

Again - personal attacks - and no logic.
As expected.

Keep it up guys - I'm only "Boring" because you don't aggree with me.
Remember - this is my thread !!

Also remember that there are other people on this forum who have read my post and do not agree with you.

Don't try to tell me to go away just because YOU don't like it.
Ive as much right to post as you - even if you don't agree with me.

Conspiracy

Slutmoneky.

I would like to quote your website that you have set as your personal webpage in your boards.ie settings.

This page is about me and why everything I like is great. If you disagree with anything you find on this page, you are wrong.

That speaks volumes about you.

dead air

This thread is a total farce! It's turned from what I thought was an initially well written argument worthy of some debate into a battle of who is better abled to argument their opinion, in an essay-type format. Afterall, it's only a trivial matter, some people believe that U2 mimed their performance and some people do not. Sin é, but I have a feeling this could run and run.

As I said in my first reply, I don't believe U2 mimed. I have a lot of faith in U2, I stood outside Hanover Quay last month listening to their BBC performance and I've seen them at Slane a few years ago. In my opinion they deserve to be regarded among the world's best live acts. Bono's voice has matured well, his vocals on HTDAAB are the best I've heard. His vocals were weak in part on the Jonathan Ross show, but sounded excellent in others. I think some people just have a problem with U2 and are just nitpicking for holes in their image.

dublinario

Conspiracy wrote:

As an Irishman, I'm ashamed to see the way people flame in this country.
I've been involved in heated debates all over the world - but never have I seen so many personal attacks on people in my life as I saw in this one thread.

Well, not everyone is flaming you Conspiracy, but I have to admit I'm tempted to considering you persist on implying that everybody who enjoys U2's music today is an imbecile. Conspiracy, you don't necessarily have to be a mechanic to know if a car is good, or play in the Premiership to appreciate good football. How can you not see the disgusting arrogance you exude when you rant and rave about us all "...having the Wool pulled over our eyes". In my experience, a very high percentage of the posters (e.g. DoctorJ) on this and the other Music forums are musicians. I'm not condoning flaming, but how can you act surprised when you continue to churn out ludicrous histrionics in relation to our ability to discern good music from bad? Stop telling us we are wrong or ignorant to like the music we like. Sound Engineers do not have some enlightened monopoly on taste because of their job. I would imagine a lot of the musician posters on this thread have probably learned to play a U2 song or two from the last couple of albums, if only to be a crowd pleaser at parties and stuff. I know I have, and I think they are good songs. Stripped bare, on my acoustic Guitar, they sound good. So I still don't see what is driving you to the point of Apoplexy to insist they are not so. Well, I do actually. You're just a begrudger. I don't want to get all Freudian, but As DoctorJ so appropriately pointed out, you couldn't help but repeat "750 million" in the earlier parts of this thread as if it was a veritable mantra. Seriously, almost every posting cited U2's earnings.

Conspiracy wrote:

"Maybe that applies to you, but I happen to really like the last two albums. And guess what? I'm not the only one, the majority of U2 fans all over the world have too.".
An utterly useless unsubstantiated comment if ever there was one. No figures or basis for it - but "it sounded good" !!! Useless comment!!!!

You don't think it's a reasonable assumption, based on sales (the new album is currently number 1 in countless countries) alone, to say that U2 fans all over the world have predominantly enjoyed the last two offerings? You really believe that statement warrants backing up? Are you delusional Conspiracy?

Conspiracy wrote:

I've always found web forums a place that people say things that they wouldn't normally say if someone knew their true identity. Many people on this forum display all the traits of the Ireland that I dislike

And by God Conspiracy, you definitely display traits of the Ireland that I dislike! If you are going to keep insulting the intelligence of posters by implying they are too stupid to discern good music, and then insult us again by proxy whilst casting aspersions on the population at large, then kindly quit whining about flaming. At least flaming is honest and up front. Your flaming is more insidious and condescending.

Conspiracy wrote:

….the people that make others say "I hate this country"

I wasn't aware of any rampant anti-Irish sentiment throughout the world. I think most of the anti-Irish sentiment I would see comes from Irish people themselves, like you and your cohort of success hating begrudgers.

Conspiracy wrote:

and every person considers themselves an expert in things they have no clue about.

No, I simply think that people don’t take kindly to being told that they are imbecilic for liking a particular brand of music, or that they have to have an esoteric understanding of a particular industry to appreciate it’s produce.

Conspiracy wrote:

Given that we are a little USA in nearly all senses of the comparison, you are the citizens that have the wool pulled over your eyes but believe you know better because you are driven by emotion rather than sound logic and evidence.

What evidence? Conspiracy, you are the one acting like a petulant, tantrum throwing lunatic here. All evidence points AWAY from your argument. I repeat: U2 albums are virtually always universally critically acclaimed. Are all critics idiots? Have none of them a shred of integrity? And the albums are selling huge too. So you can babble on about the U2 marketing machine, and regurgitate your obsession with U2’s “750 million” ad infinitum, but the fact is that people are still buying and enjoying U2’s critically acclaimed albums. You sir, are the one who seems to be following an argument devoid of evidence, and seemingly driven by emotion.

Conspiracy wrote:

Settle for less, and thats your standards???!!!! Good luck to you - your life will be so so rich as a conseqense of that type of decision - not !

What’s your end goal here Conspiracy? Are you trying to convince us that we don’t like U2’s music? That we are all somehow caught up in a collective malaise in which we are deluding ourselves that we like songs we actually don’t. Do you think you can talk me into suddenly not thinking “Sometimes you can’t make it on your own” is a good song? You talk about how our lives will not be rich because we don’t agree with your taste in music?!?!? But from the limited information I have garnered about you from this thread, I certainly would not envy you your life. I see a man so insecure that he feels he must constantly give us his CV, constantly tell us he plays loads of instruments, engineers, produces, blah blah blah. I see somebody who is compulsively enraged by the success of others, and tries to find nitpicky little things to justify this rage. But worst of all, I see a narcissist who believes that any opinion that deviates from his own is child-like, juvenile, or ignorant. Take a good look in the mirror before you go talking about the richness of our lives Pal.
.

Conspiracy wrote:

Good luck to you all - you'll need it

Conspiracy, I hope your personality outside of the forum is considerably better than what you have displayed inside of it. Sure, you personally may go on to be very successful and fair dues to you. But if you really are as patronizing and arrogant in real life as you are in this thread, I think it is the unfortunates who know you in real life who deserve to be wished luck.

Slutmonkey57b

Congratulations, "comedy" has passed over your head.

I'm not maddox in case you're interested.

Third_Echelon

Well said dublinario.

Are you a pyschologist by any chance?

Mr. CooL ICE

Conspiracy wrote:

Flagrant accusations about double accounts, people comparing fully grown adults to 15 year olds - and such other ridiculus comments that cannot be backed up such as :"Maybe that applies to you, but I happen to really like the last two albums. And guess what? I'm not the only one, the majority of U2 fans all over the world have too.".
An utterly useless unsubstantiated comment if ever there was one. No figures or basis for it - but "it sounded good" !!! Useless comment!!!!

Figures? WTF??? Music is a form of art, and logic doesn't necessarily have to apply to art. And what right have you to comment on what a U2 fan thinks of U2 albums?

To me, it seems that you have turned this thread from its subject ("U2 mine on Jonathan Ross !!") into an attack on the pride of Irish people.

eoin5

Ignore the unreal tournament bit

Third_Echelon

Do you see conspiracy??? I told you it was all about maths

Kali

Did nobody else notice The Edge singing backup vocals?

Sister Ray

What a joke !!

Conspiracy

dublinario wrote:

Well, not everyone is flaming you Conspiracy

I agree - and you will see that I didn't suggest that everyone was. But the people that did, and i'm not talking about the people who challenged my opinions, were harsh. In fact, you Dublinaro were not one of them, but your complete character assisination of me warrents a well worded response.

dublinario wrote:

"you don't necessarily have to be a mechanic to know if a car is good"

No, but if you are a mechanic, you have a far better chance of spotting when a second hand car salesman is pulling a fast one !!

dublinario wrote:

"You're just a begrudger"

Not at all. As I have said numerous times - fair balls to them for making the money. Fair balls to Dick Cheeney for coming from nothing and making the money. Fair balls to Bill Gates for making his money. However, I don't have much respect for the way that any of the above named went about making that money - but I certainly don't begrudge them that they got there. I do hate the way they have all used the media to sell their product.

dublinario wrote:

"Seriously, almost every posting cited U2's earnings. "

No they didn't - only in responses to that repeat statement about my comments - because that very relevant. Money is power - and without the money, they would not have been able to control the media like they have done.

dublinario wrote:

"You don't think it's a reasonable assumption, based on sales (the new album is currently number 1 in countless countries) alone, to say that U2 fans all over the world have predominantly enjoyed the last two offerings? You really believe that statement warrants backing up? Are you delusional Conspiracy?

Before the last election in the USA, 60% of americans surveyd (+-3%) believed that weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. That idea was sold - and sold well. It was not the truth, but it sold well due to media. You claim because something sells well is a testiment to it's true merit ??

dublinario wrote:

And by God Conspiracy, you definitely display traits of the Ireland that I dislike! If you are going to keep insulting the intelligence of posters by implying they are too stupid to discern good music, and then insult us again by proxy whilst casting aspersions on the population at large, then kindly quit whining about flaming. At least flaming is honest and up front. Your flaming is more insidious and condescending.

You can see from the whole thread that I too waited and waited before I started flaming - and it was only in self defence. I didn't want to single out people, but it appears that people who were insecure about their own opinions felt they were being flamed too !! They weren't !! My flame was directed at only some people - but now everyone feels the victim?? I never pointed at everyone.

dublinario wrote:

I wasn't aware of any rampant anti-Irish sentiment throughout the world. I think most of the anti-Irish sentiment I would see comes from Irish people themselves, like you and your cohort of success hating begrudgers.

Again - you group me with some clan of begrudgers????? Hmmmm.
You are correct here though - I never said anything about throughout the world. There are many people who now dislike Ireland - the Ireland that has emerged over the past 10 years. Self-hating Irish if you like - but they do exist, and for the reasons I stated above too.

dublinario wrote:

No, I simply think that people don’t take kindly to being told that they are imbecilic for liking a particular brand of music, or that they have to have an esoteric understanding of a particular industry to appreciate it’s produce.

This was never an attack on people who like the music. Like it away if you want. e.g. I like westlifes music. The production is absolutely wonderful. However, they are marketed artists. Not true artists that made it up through the scene the hard way like U2 originally did. However, they are extreemly successfull. Why? a)money and b)marketing. Would Westlife sell as many albums and tickets if their image was not marketed as heavily as it is in every single possible way available? Probably not.

dublinario wrote:

What evidence? Conspiracy, you are the one acting like a petulant, tantrum throwing lunatic here. All evidence points AWAY from your argument. I repeat: U2 albums are virtually always universally critically acclaimed. Are all critics idiots? Have none of them a shred of integrity? And the albums are selling huge too. So you can babble on about the U2 marketing machine, and regurgitate your obsession with U2’s “750 million” ad infinitum, but the fact is that people are still buying and enjoying U2’s critically acclaimed albums. You sir, are the one who seems to be following an argument devoid of evidence, and seemingly driven by emotion.

Critics - who pays them? What is Virtually Always about? They are or they aren't !! Have a look at www.allmusic.com and search for U2. Have a look at the album ratings for all their albums. You will see that their albums have not all been critically aclaimed. They have perhaps by MTV, VH1, Rolling Stone, and the rest of that team, but those are all paid off - to think that they aren't is incorrect. That is again where the 750 Mil comes in. Again, I consider that figure to be extreemly relevant to their sales and success.

dublinario wrote:

What’s your end goal here Conspiracy? Are you trying to convince us that we don’t like U2’s music?

Why would I be trying to convince people that? You like it or you don't. But to think that this is a band who give it their all is incorrect. They give it feck all now - and that has been my original point. They were great, but now they are not. THere is absolutely nothing mind blowing about their new albums - they are average songs, but nothing remarkable.

dublinario wrote:

You talk about how our lives will not be rich because we don’t agree with your taste in music?!?!?

Not at all !!! Again - you quote me out of context.
Certain people's lives are not so rich because they don't see the puppet master pulling the strings. To live in ignorance is to live in prison. Nothing to do with the music you like.

dublinario wrote:

But from the limited information I have garnered about you from this thread, I certainly would not envy you your life. I see a man so insecure that he feels he must constantly give us his CV, constantly tell us he plays loads of instruments, engineers, produces, blah blah blah. I see somebody who is compulsively enraged by the success of others, and tries to find nitpicky little things to justify this rage. But worst of all, I see a narcissist who believes that any opinion that deviates from his own is child-like, juvenile, or ignorant. Take a good look in the mirror before you go talking about the richness of our lives Pal.

Ok - so here you attempt to diagnose my mind when you don't even know me. I love my life, and was as insecure as the next guy up until about 2 years ago - but since then I've been realising that all is not what it seems in this world. U2 are not what they seem - and I was stating my occupation again and again because it became evident that many people were not reading the entire thread and were therefore missing where I was coming from. It was information for those people - and also a number of people replied to me and their replies displayed that they did not know where I was coming from.

dublinario wrote:

I see somebody who is compulsively enraged by the success of others,

Why? Where have I said or suggested that their success enrages me?? I never said that!!! I've only repeated a number of times : fair balls to them!! I just hate the way that they have gone about it. It's not artistic - it's corporate !!!!

dublinario wrote:

But worst of all, I see a narcissist who believes that any opinion that deviates from his own is child-like, juvenile, or ignorant.

Incorrect - I can only say it's not correct. I love debate, but when something is incorrect, I point it out - thats honesty, not.
The people I made comments to were claiming that they didn't care whether U2 mimed - they still thought they were great. I think that is wrong. Especially if you give off the impression that you are something else. That is called deception.

dublinario wrote:

Conspiracy, I hope your personality outside of the forum is considerably better than what you have displayed inside of it. Sure, you personally may go on to be very successful and fair dues to you. But if you really are as patronizing and arrogant in real life as you are in this thread, I think it is the unfortunates who know you in real life who deserve to be wished luck.

Conspiracy

Dublinario. For some reason you took it upon yourself to speak for those who were not able to speak for themselves. Why you felt the need to personally attack me in the way that you did leaves me baffelled. I was initially very hurt by your comments, but I am seeing past them. I never attacked you, and the people that I was referring to are obvious by the way they posted above. To think that I was generalizing is naieve, and you appear not to be able to see that yourself. The post descended into a flaming post. When it initially started, I sent two messages to moderators, but they let it continue. The flaming continued, and only then did I deliver my piece which under the circumstances I felt was only fair. That you disagree with me is fine, say that, but to character assinate me personally when I was only making my points (up untill my last "anti-irish" post) seems a little harsh. Again, it doesn't bother me as I am confident I know exactly the person who I am, and thus can confirm your diagnosis is wrong.

What I don't understand is why boards.ie allow such flaming to go on for such a period of time - withouth locking posts like they should. Because this is what happens when you allow flaming to keep going. I wanted to leave this thread so many times over the last 48 hours, but as each flame appeared in my inbox I felt I had to defend myself. As you will see from the entire thread, it is ME that has been on the defensive for the entire time - just like now. Why? Well, thats up to the readers.

Moral of the story - Concerning U2 - Never criticize them, whether your points are valid or invalid, as they are gods in too many peoples eyes and those fans will not tolerate it.

What a mess of a thread.
:C:


Many Thanks to :
: Doctor J (for acknowleding the way it is in the industry - for sharing recording techniques - and for trying to extinguish the flames)
: Slutmonkey57b (For flaming and quoting me out of context - and for continuous personal insults)
: Papa Smut (For good facts - but why wasn't the thread locked?!!!)
: John2 (For this classic link about U2 Ltd: U2 Ltd sue a band off the planet
: Phil321 (For believeing in the Edges "great" talents - and for being the most ignorant contributer to the flame throwning)
: Sister Ray (For not being me)
: Dcully (For his insults and also for not looking the flaming thread - )
: Third Echelon (For sound logical comments)

: Dublinario (For also believing in the Edges "great" talents and thinking Noel Gallagher is talentless (which he most definately isn't and i'm not an oasis fan) - For repeatedly accusing me begrudgery and of attacking Bono individually and not U2 Ltd. - and of course for your outright personal attack on my character)

Karl Hungus

Christ, I'm locking this.

Not because of flaming, but because Conspiracy is an absolute twat giving me about 50 reported posts when there's barely any kind of personal insult whatsoever. If I see this kind of tit-acting again, I'm just going to ban the offender.