U2 Mime on Jonathan Ross !!

Bungalow Bill

magpie wrote:

Yes, because aspiration to wealth is a key element of american society, and look where it's got them.

Irish society used to have something more than a crass obsession with accumulating material objects and status, which has sadly been eroded by the american values so eloquently advocated by Bono and his ilk.

This concept of 'begrudgery' is the Irish equivalent of 'Anti-Semitism'. If you have a problem with a person who happens to be rich or successful your opinion is automatically derided as 'begrudgery'. Much in the same way you can't criticise the politics of the state of Israel without them screaming 'Anti-Semitism!'.

Trust me, I have no interest in leading the sad vacuous existence that Bono has created for himself, nor do I have any interest in his money or fame. I just happen to think he's a puffed-up, nylon-hair-plugged little middle-aged man who is sorely lacking in dignity. I also think he's reasonably talented, and that early U2 stuff was good (I love New Year's Day etc). I just don't think anything they've done recently is very relevant, or good. The fact that he carries out good works for charity does not mean that he is exempt from criticism in his musical career.

And they were doing U2 Karaoke on Jonathan Woss. And that bit were Bono ripped his t-shirt open made me gag/laugh in equal measure.

In short, give it a rest grandad.




Soulwax / 2 Many DJs

Ah the stupid argument of music being relevant, that means NOTHING. The fact is that after 25 years millions of discerning adults who normally mightn't spend their money on music still are buying U2 albums. Why? Not because they're marketed so well, but because the albums are still very good, and that is what a fan wants from an album. Music critics have as much freedom to write whatever they want as they like so who is saying that they are criticism proof. And this album got 4 out of 5 stars in almost everything I read.
You accuse Bono of lacking dignity?? Just after you launch an attack on the man's appearance("puffed-up, nylon-hair-plugged little middle-aged man"), where is the dignity in that comment?
Bono is using the position he has to do as much good in the world as he can and plans on dedicating the rest of his life to it, that HAS to be respected.
I hope U2 continue to release good music because they are still better than most bands. They still put on an awesome live show that is streets ahead of most bands. And we should be proud of them because they are Irish and be thankful that scouts have been looking around Ireland for the next U2 for the last 15 years, adn hopefully for me, the next 15.

mise

hmmm..... just reading some of the commetns bout how U2 shouldve quit a feww years back makes me wonder how many of you have given the new album a good listen. Sounds to me like most havent and just wanna whinge bout Bono and U2 a bit more. Didnt see the Jonathan Ross performance and wouldve been surprised if they did mime. Bono voice is a lot weaker than it used to be but but has been like that nice at least "pop". He sings a lot differently now than he did back in the day, still think he can sing tho. Would just like to see better contributions than " U2 are sh*te wish they'd split up"

Third_Echelon

I can't stand this apparent Irish attirude towards U2 and Bono in particular.

They are living legends in their own right. One of the previous posters listed some of their best tracks... There are some bands out there that would give their left-testicle to have just one of those tracks in their entire career on one of their albums!!!

The new album is really good. All reviews that i've read of it have given it top marks. Reviews dont lie. If something is cr@p, you are told its cr@p by reading many reviews etc....

With regards to the miming thing on JRoss show, I didn't actually notice it. It sounded pretty live to me, but as other more musically technified people have pointed out, they were miming for some parts... SO WHAT!!!

Its well known that the BBC do not allow live acts to perform fully live!!! look at TOTP for the past god-knows-how-many years.... The famous Nirvana incident on the JRoss show in the early 90's? Anyone remember that???

Bono being a typical front-man of such a successfull band has to be full of himself. This is where front-men get their confidence and buzz... its what they do....

People seem to have this affliction of slagging Bono for doing all the charity work and drop the debt stuff, saying that he's only doing it for the publicity etc...
To those people i say, 'stop being a bunch of winging geebags...'

The man is doing something good with the influence he has... We have put him in this 'powerful' position by buying his records and making him famous. He is putting his fame to good use and in turn helping those less fortunate than ourselves.

For those of you that give him stick for this, take a look at yourself and feel ashamed. If he stopped doing the work he is doing a lot of people would be less well off... He is actually doing something about issues that he feels are important. Grow up Ireland and look at the bigger picture....

I for one salute you Bono...

Slutmonkey57b

It's amazing the amount of spite that gets directed at Bono. Mostly from people who will tell you what he's like having never met the man. Ever. Firstly, I have met the man, and where I work most people have. He is, by 100% consensus, one of the nicest blokes to deal with. As are the rest of the U2 "sellouts" you're decrying. And if your music industry "contacts" have bad experiences, try remembering something: they meet him at work. Are you the same person at home as you are at work? Bullsh*t you are. If I'm Bono, and I walk into a recording studio, I'd be inclined to run things however I wanted. If somebody disagreed with me, I'd be inclined to say "Don't like it? get another job."

As to Bono leading a "sad, vaucous existance", are living on the same planet here? Let's see, he's been married to the same woman for over 20years, has kids, lives near where he grew up, manages to be successful, brings pleasure to millions all over the world and devotes large amounts of time to charity. Sounds like a pretty simple, holistic existance to me. Care to put your own life cv online so we can compare? Got any kids? Married, are you? Managed to avoid selling your soul to a corporate devil to pay the bills, have you? Bullsh*t you have.

Smiler

magpie wrote:

Soulwax / 2 Many DJs

Are they not the same band?

I thought "2 many DJ's" were the brothers from Soulwax doing dance stuff.

Could be wrong though.

Anyway If you don't like what U2 are doing then don't buy the album.
I got it as a pressie, and it's ok. I like Vertigo & Peace & Love or else..........the rest is growing on me. Slowly

No1 in 32 countries though................that's a lot of sales.

Conspiracy

Here Here Magpie !!!

Doc J - You give me a 58 through a voxbox and I'll make you sound good too.
Whether I use a 58 or a M149 on a vocalist, it will always depend on whether it suits the vocalist or not. The freq range of the 58 suits bono - that's why they use it. Using a sm58 over a u87 does not amount to artistic integtity !!!!! As Joe Meek said: if it sounds right, it is right.

Am I an engineer? Yes. I also produce, and am a multi-instrumentalist. And no, our studio does not suck the client off. Infact, we had a a client who wanted 3000ms of reverb on a drumkit this weekend just gone - which didn't happen in the end as we knew better than them on that decision. No selling out - and that is the way we want to keep it.

Slutmonkey57b

What he means is, and this is the important "sellout" point here, is:

Would you turn down a client with large amounts of cash just because you didn't like their music? Or their "integrity"? What about drug use? Or the label they were signed to? Or if they didn't like Nirvana? Would you book Cat Stevens in? Boasting about how you refused to do a reverb means nothing other than you didn't like the sound the client wanted to make, and that you're arrogant enough to try and force your opinion on them. Tell me, did you still take the client's money? Too ****ing right you did.

Irish society used to have something more than a crass obsession with accumulating material objects and status, which has sadly been eroded by the american values so eloquently advocated by Bono and his ilk.

This is a joke, right? Apparantly you haven't read the lyrics to the average U2 song,glorifying crass consumption is not a major theme. Spirituality is. Society is. Injustice is. I don't hear any rapperesque Bono lyrics about the size of his house or the number of cars he has, or how many b!tches he's had. Irish society used to have a lot of things, mind-numbing stupidity being one of them. Nice to see not all the old traditions have died off, eh?

Slutmonkey57b

Conspiracy wrote:

Am I an engineer? Yes. I also produce, and am a multi-instrumentalist. No selling out - and that is the way we want to keep it.

Here's a piece of guesswork for you:
Do you think that when U2 walk into their studio, to record their album, of their own music, and their own lyrics, on their own equipment, they worry about what anyone else thinks they should be doing? I'd guess the answer is no. Maybe it's because they're arrogant. Or maybe they figure they've been doing this so long they might have a vague clue what they're up to by now.

As to selling out, you must be aware that U2 are one of the only bands in the world who own the rights to their own catalogue - since before Joshua Tree came out. Not only have they not "sold out" in the way that every other band has - by giving up the rights to their music, image and production to a record company - they don't have to pimp their soul to whoever comes along to earn a crust. Tell me, are you in a position to do that? Getting bitter over the fact that they have €750m to "cushion" themselves with indicates to me that you're not. They're rich. They earned it by working their arses off in this industry when you were a tiddler, or not even born. Get over it.

As to the miming bit, I didn't see it so I can't comment one way or the other. You know what you could do rather than vent your bile on a message board? email the fan club, or the band, and ask what went on. Never know, you might get an answer.

Conspiracy

Would you turn down a client with large amounts of cash just because you didn't like their music? Or their "integrity"? What about drug use? Or the label they were signed to? Or if they didn't like Nirvana? Would you book Cat Stevens in? Boasting about how you refused to do a reverb means nothing other than you didn't like the sound the client wanted to make, and that you're arrogant enough to try and force your opinion on them. Tell me, did you still take the client's money? Too ****ing right you did.

You miss the point. This job was an engineering AND producing job. If you are to produce for an act who don't know the greater implications of making random changes to a mix with no regard for consequence - then you have to direct them. They pay for your opinion.

You send in steve lillywhite or another big producer to the studio, and I'll expect they know better than me. I wouldn't expect suggestions like put loads of reverb on the drums while everything else is dry. The client was only slagging off our reference library containing Bon Jovi's slippery when wet. The client then wanted that treatment on their drums - but they didn't. It was an attempt to make a suggestion about how to make the whole thing sound better. The suggestion was discussed, and was very openly explained to them. Time was money - and they could play with reverbs on the drums if they wanted. They chose not to - and the whole thing will sound more like what they wanted than what you appear to suspect.

The difference is between engineering and producing. When you do both, you have to help the client get the result they want - and it's a diplomatic process. No bullying works - it's about discussion and understanding. We own our studio - and it's not small either. We owe nothing, and we can do what we like. We produce. We don't take production instructions from people who have no idea what they are talking about (scientifically engineering wise). It's not about liking music. I've heard the same 3 tracks around 200 times over the past fortnight, and I know them better than the band themselves do. We had an initial meeting concerning the sound they wanted and we all agreed on what it was to sound like. We are not stupid, and we are not arrogant. We are simply confident in our engineering and production skills as a production team are up to scratch. We also know the effects of making what might seem to an artist like a "small" change. This will end in one of two situations - 1) it doesn't get finished because they can't pay for it to be finished, 2) Stick to the plan, and get the product completed to the agreed timescale and cost base.

Time is money - and we are there to ensure they get value for money. Not to let some guy sit there playing with the lexicon for and hour at his own cost to find we were right.

Slutmonkey57b

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Here's a piece of guesswork for you:
Do you think that when U2 walk into their studio, to record their album, of their own music, and their own lyrics, on their own equipment, they worry about what anyone else thinks they should be doing? I'd guess the answer is no. Maybe it's because they're arrogant. Or maybe they figure they've been doing this so long they might have a vague clue what they're up to by now.

As to selling out, you must be aware that U2 are one of the only bands in the world who own the rights to their own catalogue - since before Joshua Tree came out. Not only have they not "sold out" in the way that every other band has - by giving up the rights to their music, image and production to a record company - they don't have to pimp their soul to whoever comes along to earn a crust. Tell me, are you in a position to do that? Getting bitter over the fact that they have €750m to "cushion" themselves with indicates to me that you're not. They're rich. They earned it by working their arses off in this industry when you were a tiddler, or not even born. Get over it.

As to the miming bit, I didn't see it so I can't comment one way or the other. You know what you could do rather than vent your bile on a message board? email the fan club, or the band, and ask what went on. Never know, you might get an answer.

:mad: Ok I was going to stay quiet for this one but
"one of the only bands in the world who own the rights to their own catalogue - since before Joshua Tree came out. Not only have they not "sold out" in the way that every other band has - by giving up the rights to their music, image and production to a record company - they don't have to pimp their soul to whoever comes along to earn a crust. "

If you check out the fact they "sold" their next tour to Clear Channel Entertainment who make ticketmaster look like a charity. For a princely fee. They now have no control over prices and limited control on where they play.

And what about the U2 apple ipod? I would consider that whoring my "musical integrity".

Ireland is a nation of begrudgers, thats true, but it's only when people are fake and liars. We have got a (general) good eye for that. When was the last time someone dissed Liam Neeson, Neil Jordan even Mary Robinson ffs!!

Conspiracy

Papa Smut wrote:

And what about the U2 apple ipod? I would consider that whoring my "musical integrity".

Ireland is a nation of begrudgers, thats true, but it's only when people are fake and liars. We have got a (general) good eye for that. When was the last time someone dissed Liam Neeson, Neil Jordan even Mary Robinson ffs!!

HERE HERE !!!

U2 wouldn't mime on tv if they had integrity. Bill Hicks wouldn't go onto "The Word" in 1992 because he was told that Oliver Reed had been brought to the pub by the producers earlier in the day so he would be completely pissed by the time of the show. That is artistic integrity. You hold a show over a barrell if they don't give you what you want - especially if you are U2.

Doctor J

Conspiracy wrote:

You hold a show over a barrell if they don't give you what you want - especially if you are U2.

Then the petty whiners would be up in arms bitching about how U2 were **** to the TV show blah blah blah

Change the record

Conspiracy

Then the petty whiners would be up in arms bitching about how U2 were **** to the TV show blah blah blah

Which petty whiners? The TV company?

If they tried to whine, they would be sued by U2 Ltd.

Did you not see what happened with Justin Hawkings of the Darkness with the Band Aid 20 recording?

Both he and Bono recorded the same line - aka "the bono line".
The production team were going to choose Justins's line because they felt it sounded better. Bono wasn't happy, and his lawyers got involved. Bono was in the final version singing the line !!

750 Million Doc J.......750 Million. Mess with it, and you will be sued. They chose to mime - straight and simple. Don't try to blame the show. Also you think the band mimed? I don't. Just the singer. And that is the least hassell in a tv studio - a microphone. Done on purpose, done to decieve, end of story.

Doctor J

Didn't see it and honestly don't care enough to bother hunting it down. It's not a big deal. What I find hard to understand is how one second you're gutted and next they've been on the corporate bloodwagon for 15 years?

The music business is all about selling out. That's how it works. Really, I thought everybody knew

Doctor J

Doctor J wrote:

The music "business" is all about selling out. That's how it works. Really, I thought everybody knew

Not all the time... You don't "Have" to sell your soul and start sucking Satan's ding-dong to make a career in music. See Ani DiFranco, Hamill on Trial, Belle and Sebastian, Beck, Sonic Youth etc., etc. All these people (while having NONE of the marketing money behind them) are able to make a fortune, and they make their fortunes from NOT sucking Satans ding-a-ling but from gigging, making music that people want to find because it's generally beautiful. They have control over their studio output and gigging commitments, and NEVER mime. (Hamill does a really good sketch on it)

So. To recap. You can make it in music without having to go into the "Business" :cool:

Doctor J

Conspiracy wrote:

WAlso you think the band mimed? I don't. Just the singer. And that is the least hassell in a tv studio - a microphone. Done on purpose, done to decieve, end of story.

You sure you're an engineer? You think mic'ing drums, guiatr and bass and make damn sure the band sync to a pre-recorded backing track of vocal less hassle than just playing a DAT and have everybody mime, then mix foldback, foh and a live mix to the TV feeds?

Doctor J

Papa Smut wrote:

Not all the time... You don't "Have" to sell your soul and start sucking Satan's ding-dong to make a career in music. See Ani DiFranco, Hamill on Trial, Belle and Sebastian, Beck, Sonic Youth etc., etc. All these people (while having NONE of the marketing money behind them) are able to make a fortune, and they make their fortunes from NOT sucking Satans ding-a-ling but from gigging, making music that people want to find because it's generally beautiful. They have control over their studio output and gigging commitments, and NEVER mime. (Hamill does a really good sketch on it)

So. To recap. You can make it in music without having to go into the "Business" :cool:

"while having NONE of the marketing money behind them" Are Sonic Youth still on Geffen? Beck's on Geffen too? You're suggesting those MTV videos paid for themselves? Those huge posters in the record stores, they were lovingly printed out by the staff? Those ads in all the music mags, they weren't paid for in some form of MARKETING strategy? Let me assure you, Geffen are there to make money. Any band that signs to Geffen is signed with the view of making money for Geffen (or whichever conglomarate wons them now). Remember it was Geffen who insisted Andy Wallace remix Nevermind, they didn't like Butch Vig's mix, so they rejected it and got their man in to clean it up. Nirvana didn't have a say. Geffen are just as into $$$ as the next label. you think that Dirty 'Deluxe Re-issue' was put out at full price despite the agonised protesting of Kim Gordon? Me arse




Look, there are bands out there who might sound a little non-mainstream, until the mainstream swallows them up but be under no illusions. Everybody is playing ball.

dublinario

Wow, I'm stunned by the copious amounts of vitriol being spewed from this thread towards Bono. Some people have resorted to the most base of comments, wishing the man would die. Others, like Conspiracy, have relied on more cogent reasoning. And yet, irregardless of the substance of the postings, they all seem to have one thing in abundance, one driving force: Begrudgery. Pure and simple.

How else can anybody justify the level of anger and disdain people feel for Bono? Is it the music? How could it be? Their music is unquestionably good. I'm not a big fan of U2, but I recognise quality when I hear it, and their work has been virtually perpetually critically aclaimed throughout their career. Are people suggesting that all critics, worldwide, are somehow afraid to opine negatively about U2? That they are perhaps part of some global Oliver Stone style ‘Critic Conspiracy’. Bullsh*t. The albums are critically acclaimed because they are good. An earlier poster listed some of their greatest hits, and it was a mouth watering list.

So it isn't the music in general. Is it specifically Bono's contribution to the music? How could it be; he is an amazingly flamboyant, energetic front man. He is also an excellent, tuneful singer with an impressive range that allows him to glide effortlessly between falsetto and his more gutsy offerings.

So I don't think people hate Bono because of U2's music, or because they think that, specifically, he is personally talentless. So it must be him as a person, right? Well, again, I don't think so. The man does tireless, immeasurable work for charity. He is a family man who has never been involved in any sordid or sleazy scandal. So what do people hate about him, to the point that they feel motivated to vent a tirade of bile toward him on a public forum? A couple of people have cited 'contacts', people who'se brothers uncles aunty once sold Bono's mothers sister a Gold Fish, and apparently says Bono is a w*nker. What a load of b*lllox!!! None of you know the man.

But as a counter-balance (and admittedly being a total hypocrite!!), I'm going to add my own 'uncles brothers aunties' type story. My sister worked in Windmill Lane Recording Studio for donkeys years, met Bono countless times, and has nothing but good things to say about him. He even borrowed money from her once for the Toll Bridge, and repaid her with a bunch of flowers. A perfect gent. Also, my sisters fiance is an Engineer (he and my sister met in Windmill Lane) and is credited on the sleeve notes of 'All that you cant leave Behind', having worked on one of the tracks. Again, he hasn't a bad word to say about any of the members of U2.

So, in my opinion, it isn't the music, or the man himself that make people hate Bono. So what does that leave? The success. That's all. Pure, unadulterated, thinnly veiled begrudgery. Get over it lads. Sure, he's arrogant, so what? Why can't Irish people be proud of our success stories. It's totally analogous to Collin Farrell. I remember when it first became apparent that he was going to be Stellar, and everybody in Ireland was really proud, I said to a mate 'Watch, the Irish will turn on him, guaranteed'. And they have, right on cue. Ok, he has said one or two dopey things in the press, most notably about his short lived heroin indulgence, but why can't Irish people be proud of the fact that a man from our tiny little Island is commanding multi-million pounds for his (superb in my opinion) acting ability, and is methodically working his way through some of the worlds most beautiful women like a dog on heat? Begrudgery, that's why.

p.s. A couple of morons earlier in the thread made some disparaging remarks about ‘The Edge’s guitar playing, inferring that he is ****. Again, I’m not hugely into U2, but I play the Guitar, and can tell you here and now that it is bollox to suggest The Edge is **** on the Guitar. Just because he doesn’t play 5 minute long Solo’s at break neck speed does not mean he is a bad Guitarist. He is innovative, and a perfectionist who is renowned for his diligence in ensuring that he can recreate as much as possible of the exact sounds heard on U2 albums when playing live.

John

Personally I think U2 are a great band. I don't listen to them due to marketing reasons, I listen to them because, call me crazy, the music and the lyrics are good. The new album is a good album, better than the last one. I do think U2 have done some dubious things in their career (link the first, link the second) but a good song is a good song no matter what the attitude. And whoever said that Zoo TV was just U2 jumping on the dance bandwagon is talking out of their ass. I know for a fact that U2 had been listening to a lot of underground electronica and noise based music (the Edge in particular) in the years before Achtung Baby, they genuinely like that kind of music so of course they'll be influenced by it. Begrudgery and music snobs are all I see. :mad:

Conspiracy

Dublinario, where should I start.
I find myself defending my point again and again with different people. Has anyone read the full thread or are they simply reading 3 posts and then replying angrily????????

dublinario wrote:

And yet, irregardless of the substance of the postings, they all seem to have one thing in abundance, one driving force: Begrudgery. Pure and simple.

Eh,...No. I have said repeatedly that I don't begrudge them anything. I have a problem when they present themselves as something they are not.

dublinario wrote:

He is also an excellent, tuneful singer with an impressive range that allows him to glide effortlessly between falsetto and his more gutsy offerings.

Noooooooo !!!!! He WAS. Now, he is not - and that's the issue. HE WAS - Now he is not !!!

dublinario wrote:

p.s. A couple of morons earlier in the thread made some disparaging remarks about ‘The Edge’s guitar playing, inferring that he is ****. Again, I’m not hugely into U2, but I play the Guitar, and can tell you here and now that it is bollox to suggest The Edge is **** on the Guitar. Just because he doesn’t play 5 minute long Solo’s at break neck speed does not mean he is a bad Guitarist. He is innovative, and a perfectionist who is renowned for his diligence in ensuring that he can recreate as much as possible of the exact sounds heard on U2 albums when playing live.

I'll say nothing !!!







NOTE TO READERS:
**************

Please look at my original post at the very very top.
My question was very specific - and originally it was going to say "Is Bono the biggest whore in Ireland". I changed it because I don't have a problem with Bono. U2 Ltd is the culprit. The question infact read - "Are U2 the biggest whores in Ireland?".

It's U2 Ltd I have been referring to all along - not any particular individual. All decisions on mehalf of U2 were not made by one person - there is a huge executive team behind the money.





NOTE TO DOCTOR J
***************
Doctor J.
1) Apart from Edible, what have you been doing in the music industry??
2) Did you produce the mp3's of edible that I heard?
(I must ask since you question my logic).

Also - have you ever heard the word MOTO?
Nobody uses DAT for tv show backing tracks anymore Doc. It's all hardisk recorders now.

Conspiracy

Doctor J wrote:

Didn't see it and honestly don't care enough to bother hunting it down. It's not a big deal. What I find hard to understand is how one second you're gutted and next they've been on the corporate bloodwagon for 15 years?

The music business is all about selling out. That's how it works. Really, I thought everybody knew

That says it all about you Doc J !!!!!
Need I say any more?

Of course I must

Tell me this. Where did I say the following statement????

You have misquoted me over and over again in this thread. Once - just once, I'm gonna pull you up on it. Where did I say this:

What I find hard to understand is how one second you're gutted and next they've been on the corporate bloodwagon for 15 years?

Phil_321

Conspiracy wrote:

Dublinario, where should I start.
Eh,...No. I have said repeatedly that I don't begrudge them anything. I have a problem when they present themselves as something they are not.

And that is?

Noooooooo !!!!! He WAS. Now, he is not - and that's the issue. HE WAS - Now he is not !!!

So, he's not as good a singer as he was..... What's the big deal there, as has been said already he's getting older. Are you criticising Bono for ageing???

........ The Edge's guitar playing.......

I'll say nothing !!!

The Edge is a great guitar player with an excellent ear for melody and he's come up with some very innovative stuff over the years. He's not a shredder, so what? He's more of an artist than a technician. And as a producer/engineer you should be able to appreciate more than most, the Edge's guitar work, and the general production standard of U2's albums, in particular Achtung Baby.

dublinario

First of all, I would just like to reaffirm my earlier sentiment that I am not a big fan of U2 (I only have about 2 or 3 of their albums), lest my posting be misconstrued as that of a blinkered zealot.

Conspiracy wrote:

Dublinario, where should I start.
I find myself defending my point again and again with different people. Has anyone read the full thread or are they simply reading 3 posts and then replying angrily????????

I have read the whole thread Conspiracy. A lot of my mail wasn't directed at you specifically, because I know you, more than most, have endeavored to explain your animosity. And yet, just because you aren't one of the w*nkers saying "I wish Bono would die", I would still argue that you are motivated by begrudgery at some level. If not, why do you even care? Why do you care what Bono says or does at all? Why does it irk you? I know you can say "well, I don't really care, actually, I'm just making conversation", but there seems to be a zealous fervour behind yours and other postings, and I can't see any rational fuel for this fervour, so I look to the irrational, and find Begrudgery to be the only candidate.

You say your beef stems from hatred of U2's contrived nature, that they are pretending to be something they aren't. I just can't fathom this logic. You are angry at them because they aren't exactly as you think they should be. Why should they fit your imaginary mould?

You say that this single performance on Johnathon Ross has negated all the love you garnered for them from their previous two decades of scintillating live performances. How the f*ck, in the name of all that is holy, can the fact that a couple of segments of a song were mimed on a stupid TV chat show, negate 20 years of touring; live performances that you admit were of very high quality? How can anybody make that statement with a straight face, that a few seconds miming (not even the whole song!) negates an entire career of live singing? I'll tell you how. Because deep down, you are a begrudger, and you have merely found an excuse to promulgate your begrudgery to the masses.

The only difference between you and the "I wish he was dead" brigade, is that the latter lack the musical nous to express their begrudgery articulately. You on the other hand, are quite obviously erudite in the field of music, and hence can deliver a more convincing argument wherein you savage (relatively) insignificant flaws in the U2 facade. But for me, there is no reasonable motivation for such 'savaging' other than begrudgery.

Conspiracy wrote:

Noooooooo !!!!! He WAS. Now, he is not - and that's the issue. HE WAS - Now he is not !!!

So f*cking what Conspiracy? You act almost as if the effects of the passage of time on Bono is a personal slight against you. He is deteriorating. We all do. I've been to see Bob Dylan twice in the last 4 years, and there is virtually nothing left of his voice. People are not compelled to retire just because they are not what they once were. I'm sure probably everybody on this thread is sick hearing the mantra about Roy Keane (incidentally, I'm a Liverpool fan) not being the player he was, but he is still a class act head and shoulders above almost every other holding midfielder in the premiership. Similarly, a 90% Bono, even a 75% Bono would sing a very great many other singers under the table. Why should be retire?

Conspiracy wrote:

I'll say nothing !!!

You don't have to, your comment says enough. Let me qualify my earlier comment about 'The Edge'. I'm not saying he is Jimi Hendrix. But it is ludicrous to say he is sh*t. Noel Gallagher is sh*t, and believe it or not, there are some even worse again. It's all relative I know, but whilst he may not be the worlds greatest Guitarist, he is unique, talented, and definately not Noel Gallagher.

Doctor J

I have to ask because your initial post says "I'm gutted", which one assumes the evening in question was a let down for you, that you held them in higher regard prior to the performance, yes? So from that we can establish that you held them in some sort of regard, I think that's fair. You also make the point of dance music influences as a definite point on the slide into mediocrity, so we'll say from Achtung Baby on? You say "It's 100% pre-meditated by them as they are actively plugging their album at the moment and would play the local spar if they thought it would sell albums." Isn't that the purpose of releasing albums, that they sell? You harp on about U2 ltd, about how they use marketing to sell albums... yeah, that's right, that's usually what people do. I don't know how many times you mention €750m, what has that got to do with music? You've never seen them live, you've never met Bono yet you have no problem spouting out all this second hand gossip and specualtion, that's not what I'd expect from a music industry professional, though hey, times may have changed. As I said, etiquette is a big part of an engineers job, good engineers know when not to talk ****. Good engineers also know what's involved in putting out an album and the amount of corporate ball playing that is part and parcel of the trade, but this seems to surprise you. It just made me wonder, that's all. Don't get all uppity, just trying to understand why you'd say what you said.

Don't worry about what I have been doing in the music industry, I haven't made any claims about my credentials, suffice to say I remain involved and have learned an awful lot in my 15 years participation, the main lesson was not to **** where I eat. I haven't used anything other than the arguements I put forth here because I don't need to, I didn't harp on about being a multi-instrumentalist too, or being an engineer and a producer as it is totally irrellevant to this discussion. You've made claims to be a professional like it lends weight to your dogma, yet change course in your arguement and make the kind of assumptions I'd expect out of a 15 year old, not a professional who makes a living out of the music industry. As for Edible, I thought it would have been clear to a trained ear that those mp3's are far from produced, as you know, after all you did say "In the late 70's early 80's, not every person could record. If a band were picked out by a record company, money was pumped in - of that be sure. In the late 90's, that all changed with computer aideded audio production. Suddenly, the cost of demos were gone, and it was made even harder to make it." I'm amazed you bothered googling to get some dirt on me, ha ha ha, that's kinds sad really. Stick to U2 and back up what you say with facts, that's all you need to do. This has very little to do with the €750m you seem obsessed with and I fail to see the relevence to U2 miming on a TV show or how you being a sound engineer makes you wise in the way of U2's marketing straegy. Someone in your position should know that marketing is part of the game, it should be expected. Most of your griping has been about marketing, money and surprisingly little about musical content.

Really, it's just that you harp on about €750m. So what? They've made some money over a 25 year career. They're still making money. They mimed on Jonathan Ross's poxy TV show to an audience of maybe 200 goons in the studio. Wow, sell out of the decade, let's burn our U2 cd's, it's the crime of the century. So you feel let down by them miming, but you still respected them enough beforehand, even with their €750m, the previous marketing campaigns, the albums, the videos, the lemons, to feel let down by them miming on a TV show. I mean, they probably had maybe €749m before the show at least. That's just kind of wierd logic. Ah well, I'm sure Bono, lamb of God that he is, doesn't give a ****e now but will no doubt give us a shout out next time he's chatting with the pope and, for that, we can all be grateful

Peace to all God's children

Conspiracy

I was let down by U2's albums from 2000 onwards.

I produce rock, ambient, techno, pop, punk, etc.
Also, I have one of the most diverse musical tastes of all my friends.

My musical background is to illustrate that I have been training for years - and I watch Pop Idol and the like for study purposes.

U2 have successfully pulled the wool over peoples eyes for years - and only because they have money, advertising and contacts behind them.

Noel Gallagher is a far more talented musician than Edge by the way - but that's an opinion. Perhaps you perfer edges style.

Money is Power - they have money. Their music is no longer Great - it's just average - and it's only getting as much publicity because of a)their reputation, and b) their money. If they were a dublin band and the arrived in Sony's offices with some demos of the tracks - I'd imagine they wouldn't get signed. It's just not good enough. However, it's good enough to sell to everyone who's duped by the advertising.

Your personal insults to me such as saying I'm like a 15 year old show the level you must stoop to try make a point. You are simply a sheep - a follower of the herd - and good luck to you. You are now just wasting my time. I've made my point - you will never agree with me, and I most certainly not agree with you.

Regarding googling you - you are naieve to think that that wouldn't happen when you start claiming to know all about the best way to setup a mime band live on tv. Ashlee Simpsons mess up on Saturday Night Live 3 weeks ago shows you are wrong. It took me all of 15 seconds to find you on the web - a small price to see who I was being lectured by !!!!

Outta here - honest work to do

Dcully

WTF ,saying Bono cant sing like he used to?
This album sees his voice at is best.
Read any review and almost all comment on how strong it is in this album.
I didnt see the J Ross show but i have doubts that they mimed.
If so there must have been a damn good reason.
I didnt like this new record at first but after a few listens it is up there with their best and yeah Bonos voice has never been better.

What is it with this country?
We begrudge like no other nation,no other country hate U2 and especially Bono more than this place.
The same can be said of our sports stars,movie stars etc.
Any irish citizen to be successfull are always shot down by their own countrymen and it makes me sick.
We are also one of the most intolerant nations to foreign people which to me stems from the same mentality of lets hate our successfull citizens.
The mind boggles!

Doctor J

Conspiracy wrote:

Regarding googling you - you are naieve to think that that wouldn't happen when you start claiming to know all about the best way to setup a mime band live on tv. Ashlee Simpsons mess up on Saturday Night Live 3 weeks ago shows you are wrong. It took me all of 15 seconds to find you on the web - a small price to see who I was being lectured by !!!!

Hmmm, this is a place for debate and exchange of opinions, of which everybody is entitled to their own, I must say I've never felt the urge to google anybody. I apologise if I offended you, I was merely puzzled by statments such as "Also you think the band mimed? I don't. Just the singer. And that is the least hassell in a tv studio - a microphone. Done on purpose, done to decieve, end of story."

Would it not be easier to get everyone to mime rather than sync live with mime (as was the case with Ashlee which shows how easy it is to get wrong)... even off hard disk?

Twas nothing personal, just trying to figure out what your gripe was. Reading your posts you seem to go from a fan to a dedicated hater over the course of a mimed TV show and then go on about €750 for some reason. Ah well. Good luck with the engineering.

Bungalow Bill

Dcully wrote:

WTF ,saying Bono cant sing like he used to?
This album sees his voice at is best.
Read any review and almost all comment on how strong it is in this album.
I didnt see the J Ross show but i have doubts that they mimed.
If so there must have been a damn good reason.
I didnt like this new record at first but after a few listens it is up there with their best and yeah Bonos voice has never been better.

What is it with this country?
We begrudge like no other nation,no other country hate U2 and especially Bono more than this place.
The same can be said of our sports stars,movie stars etc.
Any irish citizen to be successfull are always shot down by their own countrymen and it makes me sick.
We are also one of the most intolerant nations to foreign people which to me stems from the same mentality of lets hate our successfull citizens.
The mind boggles!

Its true, this is a strange thread and I am yet to hear a valid argument towards peoples dislike of Bono and/or U2, and most of the original posters have gone appropriately quiet. I watched the performance and I am normally pretty good at picking out people miming. The band were definitely playing their instruments. It was certainly not the album vocal track that was used on Bono's voice. So either they did as some suggested, a pre-recorded vocal and covered it up VERY well or Bono was actually singing. I certainly had no suspicion while watching and I really think its a bit of a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation.
On the new album I think Bono's voice is fantastic in 'Original of the species', towards the end of 'All because of you' and 'Sometimes you can't make it on your own' especially, but it really is a great album. Maybe it isn't as good as some of their older stuff but i'd still much rather listen to it than Franz Ferdinand or Snow patrol or scissor scistors or most of the highly-acclaimed artists out these days, which after 25 years is quite a feat.(Have you heard St. Anger!)

Dcully

Its true, this is a strange thread and I am yet to hear a valid argument towards peoples dislike of Bono and/or U2, and most of the original posters have gone appropriately quiet. I watched the performance and I am normally pretty good at picking out people miming. The band were definitely playing their instruments. It was certainly not the album vocal track that was used on Bono's voice. So either they did as some suggested, a pre-recorded vocal and covered it up VERY well or Bono was actually singing. I certainly had no suspicion while watching and I really think its a bit of a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation.

Well said.

Maybe Conspiracy should add a "to slag off and insult U2 and their fans" after his nick.

Sister Ray

Wow... just signed up to this forum... that's some discussion going
on here!

I have seen U2's performance on Jonathan Ross, and I also noticed
that they're miming... and felt dissapointed too.

Over the last few years, my patience with Bono has slowly run out. From
one of Rock & Roll's most excellent live performers, a man who always
gave 100% to the crowd (watch Rock am Ring 1983!), he's become a
self-indulgent twat, who has now stopped giving **** all to his audience...

Remember that as a performer, giving something to your audience means that
you're either completely yourself, or you can just pull off a great act. Bono
doesn't do either of them anymore...
By miming, his act seems only worse, and I feel like he's given me nothing.

Some here would argue that he really does a lot for the 3rd world. Maybe
that's true. But also true is the fact that every time Bono is pictured with
Coffee Anan, or the Pope, U2 probably sells 10.000 records because of the
appearance...
Another fact is that the Pope is a person who's mind is completely frozen by
his religion. That ****face still preaches that all means of birth-prevention
are a sin, and should not be practised. Great news in a world where every
year 3 million people (more than half the population of the Irish Republic) die
from AIDS, people that live in regions that are also exploding from over-
population. Yes, indeed great that Bono's good friends with the man, isn't it?
If he were that much a hero, he'd either refuse to go and see the pope, or
he'd give him a public lecturing. That would be Rock and Roll!

I'd also like to make some comments on the U2's music:
1) The last 2 albums are a pittyful repetition of something that was a lot
better over 15 years ago. It may sound good (it does indeed, because
that's what a big budget can do for you), but if you don't try to push at least
some boundaries every record you make, I cannot consider it good.
U2 have stopped pushing boundaries (at least for now), and to me, that
makes them a bunch of lazy ****ers, who only seem to bring out a new
album to get in some extra cash. For me, ZOO TV was the last album where
they tried something new. My opinion of the reason why doesn't matter here,
it is different and they have to be credited for that.
2) There's nothing great about Edge's guitar playing, or the things he has
'come up with'. If you hit one note into a massive stack of delay-units that
are locked to the track, hey, everybody can play guitar (as long as you hit the
right notes). This has nothing to do with keeping it simple, but just with not
being able to play anything else (after 20+ years of being in the band!!).
Thurston Moore (Sonic Youth) masters the art of playing simple, but doesn't
need 15 delay lines to transfer the emotion to you.
U2's sound needs those 15 delays for it's own particular emotion, and there's
still nothing wrong with that. But there ain't nothing particularly good about it
either!
3) Bono and artistic integrity? Gone. Doesn't matter, but then don't market
the image of "Biggest Band in The World" anymore, because in my opinion,
artistic integrity is very relevant if you're the biggest band in the world. Sorry,
there's no way around that. That's the least I'm allowed to expect.
4) I repeat this, but I think it's important: If something sounds good, it
doesn't necessarely mean that it's good music. I think many people are taken
by the huge sound that U2 constantly manage to generate. That's mainly
down to a good engineering, not to great song-writing. Song-writing does
hardly have an effect on the final sound of an album. Arrangement does,
but that's not necessarely the artist's job.
5) Bono sings his tracks trough a 57. Lot of crap. The 57 is indeed there, but
the 10000 yippos of Manley, Neve etc. are there to to sweeten it up. A recording
engineer chooses the right microphone for the job. In a feedback-prone environment,
the 57 is outstanding. So in my opinion, there's nothing 'amazingly artistic'
about this.

And last but not least: I'm sick and tired of seeing Bono's head everywere
and everytime. Contrary of what he tries to make me believe in his media
appearances, he's not my Personal Jesus. You might argue that I should then
switch off the TV, but at the current rate of appearance that would mean a
lot of switching off. The solution to that could be much simpler, and would
remove the need for me to incur RSI to my thumb.

My conclusion of this all: If you're defending U2, you're defending the past.
No value can be attached to the product today, except for the marketing
genious and financial backing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Big up to all the real bands in the world, you know who you are and why.
The same goes for all the not so real bands!