Battlestar Galactica, episode 8: "Flesh and Bone"

Fenster

Not much to say tonight. Ho hum.

c0y0te

It was great!

I've got the outlaws over tonight :eek: so my review will be a bit later than usual. I won't get to see this ep until later this evening. I just snuck out to check that a poll had been put up in time. Oh well - back to the outlaws...

c0y0te

Ave

I'd rather watch Andromeda!

I missed a bit in tonights episode, if you've seen it, please answer the question in the spoiler tags...

When the cylon hugged the president - what did he whisper to her?

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Ave wrote:

I missed a bit in tonights episode, if you've seen it, please answer the question in the spoiler tags...

When the cylon hugged the president - what did he whisper to her?

He said:

that Adama was a cylon

Fenster

It was okay...

"Adama is a Cylon."

Good episode, I'm not sure what to make of it as there's no real ending. There's a whole lot of revelations, although once again Caprica is going nowhere. It seems one of those episodes that move the over-arching plot along without doing much in and of itself.

Key points:

Lee Obens reveals that the Colonials will find Kobol and it will in turn lead them to Earth.

After Lee Obens completes his apparent mission-meeting the President, they space him, which was a bit of a shock ending.

The Cylons on Caprica want Boomer to settle down in a cabin with Helo or kill him. She seems to have doubts about it-perhaps she really loves him-before she agrees.

Gaius confirms that Boomer on Galactica is indeed a Cylon and then lies to her to save his scrawny neck. Six knew she was already. I don't see though why Gaius let her out and then didn't just call the marines.

Steven

Fenster wrote:

and as we know [censored] at the end of the season

Since when did we know that? Great googly moogly! Don't mix series spoilers with past episode spoilers without some kind of warning. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to beat my head against the wall until I forget the last 10 minutes of my life.

GuanYin

Steven wrote:

Since when did we know that? Great googly moogly! Don't mix series spoilers with past episode spoilers without some kind of warning. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to beat my head against the wall until I forget the last 10 minutes of my life.

The warning that might be indicated by the big grey spoiler tags perchance?

Belisarius

What the hell is Kobol anyhow , As in the gods of Kobol? anyway gg on the spoiler . As for Gaius not blabbing about her being a cylon , ah sure thats why we love him, though I thought his cylon detector didnt even work?

Also proabably the most ineffective interrogation ever,Cylon or no .Frankly starbuck after trying her hand at swat sniping, teaching, Cylon Surgery and Aerospace Engineering should stick to flying her feckin viper for a bit

Boston

syke wrote:

The warning that might be indicated by the big grey spoiler tags perchance?

So you expected to read details about a future ep that hadn't been aired there syke? I know I didn't. No everybody looks up what happens before it happens

Haruspex

It was okay...

Really was a strong psychological episode tonight. Gritty as ever.

Also proabably the most ineffective interrogation ever,Cylon or no.

Starbuck's attempts to dehumanise the Cylon as he mentions to the President later, was part of her training - torture methods designed for humans, as the episode proves, just won't work on Cylons. The President seems to recognise this in her softly-softly approach towards him and yet coldly blows "the machine" out of the airlock.

"Very bright green". Favourite scene had to be Baltar beta testing the Cylon detector on Boomer. His tranisition from calm, collected Gaius to panicky Gaius was brilliant. Just when he thought his trial by fire was over, he comes over all jittery again on discovering the results and spurred on by Six's mind games. Classic.

Interesting too that despite the President recognising the insidious nature of Lee Obens, the final scene casts doubt on how she has reacted to the seed of doubt he planted regarding Adama.

As for Caprica... Well do they want Helo and Boomer to procreate and live happily ever after in Nuclear Winter Wonderland? We need an entire episode dedicated to Caprica to deal comprehensibly with this subplot I think!

NeoSlicerZ

It was okay...

Umm, the fact that a human and a cylon's offspring... is faintly disturbing.

Boston

Am I the only one that thinks the president is a cylon as a result of this ep.

GuanYin

Boston wrote:

So you expected to read details about a future ep that hadn't been aired there syke? I know I didn't. No everybody looks up what happens before it happens

Not specifically, but I guessed that there might be "spoilers" under the "spoiler tags"....... :rolleyes:

RuggieBear

It was okay...

syke wrote:

Not specifically, but I guessed that there might be "spoilers" under the "spoiler tags"....... :rolleyes:

I assumed they would be spoilers about this episode...not about soemthing that happens at the end of the series.....sure isn't there a bloody spoilers thread specifically for that sort of malarky. :rolleyes:

Boston

syke wrote:

Not specifically, but I guessed that there might be "spoilers" under the "spoiler tags"....... :rolleyes:

So you didn't expect spoilers about future ep's. Neither did Steven, and he didn't need your sarcastic reply to a valid point, :rolleyes:

David Stewart

What I'm finding interesting in the whole thing is that the Lords of Kobol have the same names as Roman gods from our own history. In an earlier episode there is reference to Zeus and in this episode there is reference to Artemis. On the other hand, the Cylons seem to have developed a mono-theistic religon. I'm wondering, therefore, if the writers are drawing upon the history of Christianity in the time of the Roman Empire as inspiration with the Cylons cast in the part of the Christians.

Maybe the Human-Cylon war is not one of conquest or revenge. Maybe it's a religous war?

Azza

It was crap!

Who reckons the President is a cylon....and no I don't mean G.W.B.

She has a dream of the Obens death which is pretty accurate and Obens said he could see the future perhaps an ability of all cylon/human agents?

Lawdie

It was crap!

Can someone pm me who the hell Lee Obens is? hes obiviously in an ep I missed...what happened?
Thanks!

GuanYin

Boston wrote:

So you didn't expect spoilers about future ep's. Neither did Steven, and he didn't need your sarcastic reply to a valid point, :rolleyes:

I never said that so don't try twist my post to validate yourself. Lets see. In a thread to discuss an episode, you might expect details of the episode so I wouldn't expect the episode details to be spoiler tagged. Anything that didn't pertain to that episode and could be deemed "a spoiler" is what I'd expect to be under there. I could specifically say what I'd expect, spoilers are a bit like Schrodingers cat in that respect.

A good rule of thumb is that anything under a spoiler tag is a spoiler, if you're not sure don't look.

Boston

syke wrote:

I never said that so don't try twist my post to validate yourself.

You either did or didn't expect to see spoiler for a future ep. I asked you, you said you didn't specifically, which I took wheryou didn't expect to see them. You can argue all you want. I've seen you do this before, spoiler was used for both the current and the future ep. Steven was very valid. You were very wrong to have a dig at him, and I pointed that out. I :rolleyes:

Anyway:

Yes I feel the president maybe a cylon, that or in the same way six got into the mind of Baltar. The cylon press guy in the pilot, got into the mind of the president. Lee could detect the president coming a long way off, suggesting she is a cylon.

Fenster

It was okay...

I put things in spoiler tags for a reason.

Nukem

It was great!

J*sus i really thought the poll would have been higher on the side of ok.
Thought that was one of the best Eps so far,obviousily ye dont.
It was class-SB really is a bit of a Satanic B*tch aint she-
and as for the Old President wonderful twist. Oh it was class. Man if is was Gauiss i would have dropped a load in my pants and made a B-Line for the door. He he the plot thinkens.
Finally Caprica got interesting but where the hell is the storyline goin. Cylon human hybrids

Haruspex

It was okay...

Boston wrote:

Yes I feel the president maybe a cylon, that or in the same way six got into the mind of Baltar. The cylon press guy in the pilot, got into the mind of the president. Lee could detect the president coming a long way off, suggesting she is a cylon.

I can see where you're coming from, Boston but... she's suffering from cancer, surely a very human illness? I doubt this would be the cover story of a Cylon. I do agree with you on the point that she could have been somehow infiltrated similar to the way in which Six appears to Baltar. This episode has opened up a lot of debate...

Azza

It was crap!

But do we know for sure that the clyons can't catch or become infected with various human ills?

MisterAnarchy

It was crap!

I thought tonights episode was the worst so far.
Far too many blind alleyways.
How can that Cylon Lee read the future ?
It seems Baltar's device actually works .Very interesting.
His character is priceless.
Too many Cylons seem to be turning up each week ,mainly only toying with the humans.
I can see a bit twist coming with regard to the 'God' aspect .
Starbuck's character is very irritating .Pure Testosterone ,no brain.
Still the best show on tv .
Hopefully next week will be better .

GuanYin

Boston wrote:

You either did or didn't expect to see spoiler for a future ep. I asked you, you said you didn't specifically, which I took wheryou didn't expect to see them..

Your decision to mis-construe the meaning of my reply neither proves anything nor justifies your descision to troll

If its under a spoiler tag, its a spoiler. Live with it.

GuanYin

What annoyed me most about tonights episode is the direct implication (via flashback) that cylon models have a shared memory, seeing as Caprica Boomers flashbacks included seeing Helo left behind as BSG Boomer took off from Caprica.....

Although, at the same time they directly reference the fact that BSG is too far out of range for the link to be maintained, which would/could explain BSG Boomer's resistance in "Water" and why they can't track her.

c0y0te

It was great!

OK. Finally got to see this tonight after I spaced the outlaws and managed to get some spare time to myself. Fed the dogs, grabbed some couch time and settled in to another excellent episode. I gave it 'amazing', and here is why:-

The Good:-

PsychoBabble - We know the cylons like to fcuk with your head (so to speak) and how appropriate it was to have an entire episode dedicated to just this.

Gestapo Baby - Jebus, when Starbuck heads into the interrogation room, equipped with limp and black uniform to boot... all I could think of was a classic interrogation scene from numerous b&w movies where the gestapo/ss bad guy (with appropriately bad accent) was moving in to interrogate the hero. Damn that was a fine setup.

Destinys Child - We had lots of references to predestination in this episode. The cylon, praying not sleeping... "These things happen for a reason" ... "I've seen this, seen you before" and of course "Our fates are similar". Added to that, the dream sequence and premonition of the spacing.. very powerful linkage to push the whole cylon motive along the plotline.

No Pain - No Gain - I know it didn't turn out to be particularly effective, but you gotta love the approach Starbuck took to interrogation. She tried her best to twist things around, knowning in advance that this guy would mess with her mind, but still succumbing to his mindgames. nice try kara, but you were outclassed! Still, excellent to watch.

She Shoots - She Scores - WOW! As usual, everything I see with Baltar and 6 is hugely entertaining, but tonight was special. And the whole cylon detector thingy... a terriffic setup for what must be coming in the next ep or two. Baltar Knows, Boomer Suspects and in between them both is 6, playing the mind game:)

Surprise! - And I certainly was. That bastard moved quickly enough when he broke the chains and swept the table aside. What I liked most about that scene was the subsequent shots of brusing around Starbucks neck from where the cylon grabbed her. Nice touch. Nice change of pace too from the mind game to the physical dominace.

No! - My favourite scene in the entire episode. Adama, gripping the phone, silently arguing with the corpse and resisting the urge to smash the phone into his temple. With Adama you can see its personal, and that comes through purely from the quality of acting with Eddie J Olmos. He is magnificant in this.

The Bad:-

Dream Jeanie - What's up with that whole dream sequence. OK - I get the premonition bit, and I was (like others above) suspecting that el presidento was infact a cylon by the end of the ep (My sky+ screwed up for 10 secs right about where cylon whispers something into her ear, so I didn't get that but my imagingation filled in the blanks and I assumed he had told here that she was a cylon), and perhaps, just maybe I could live with the shared conciousness bit if she did turn out to be a cylon (dream=communication=shared conciousness etc.) ... but then when I read above he just tried to screw with her mind by fingering Adama the whole dream bit made no sense to me.

Internal Affairs - OK. So maybe the cylons do know the future, or at least maybe they know a lot about the past, but its too unclear to me at the mo to feel comfortable with it wihtin the plotline. It just feels a bit 'stretched' so it pisses me off and smells like a cheap device to keep things ticking along. If the writers hit paydirt and surprise me with some finale or plot bomb which makes all this add up, then I'll eat my words (metaphysically speaking!) but for now it's just nonsensical to me.

Love Me Tender - Oh please! Save us from a life of petri dishes and peeping toms. So, we are expected to believe that all this sh1t on the planet is so that Bad-Boomer and Helo can settle down together, fall in love, make babies, raise a family and live the life under a microscope.... on a planet infested with cylons, wasted back to the stoneage by nukes and under constant threat of capture from pursuit?????? Damn this plotline makes no sense to me.

The Ugly:-

You've come a long way baby - but unfortunately the plot hasn't. I loved the episode because of the way it was executed, and it kept with the mindgame theme, right to the end. But in terms of advancing the plot.... naw sorry, missed by a mile as far as I'm concerned.

The Incomprehensible:-

Ice Ice Baby - So, as wonderful as the scene with Adama in the morgue was.. can anyone explain to me where the hell the body came from? By my count, the first time they encountered this cylon mutt it was on the space station, where they left him behind to rot. The second time was onboard BSG, where he blew himself into itty bitty pieces. The third time was tonights ep where he was locked into a cell with Starbuck.....so.... what the hell is the story with the frozen dude? Where did he come from?


So - that's my initial feelings on this one. I found it immensely enjoyable, well acted and could almost forgive the president for taking chains off and hugging a cylon (since she is dying anyway) and loved the fact that there was no nuke because it all plays to the theme of the mindgame and determining fate etc., but there are just a few flaws still niggling me about the boomer plotline (planetside) and the whole predestination thing which is pissing me off. Hopefully someone will explain it to me in the coming hours/days:)

Still - I have to say I'm enjoying the scenes and the episodes immensely. I may bitch about some bits and pieces of it, but that only proves that I'm so invested in other parts of it that I want it all to make sense, so it must be doing something right to get me that interested in the first place!!!

c0y0te

Fenster

It was okay...

"I can kill you...I can tear your spine from your spinal column, I can crash through that door and kill the guard outside in less time than it takes to tell you this."

Kara sneers at this, so he does it.

ixoy

It was okay...

I'm a fan of intense psychological episodes so this one did it for me. It also went and revealed more of the thinking of the Cylons, particularly their religious philosophy and once more saying that the BSG crew are into the Lord of Kobol and Cylons are a monotheistic culture. So if any BSG crew say "God" and not "gods" be on the lookout.

Caprica - boo! Get on with it! I know what yer doing pfft.

Didn't Lee mention something about endurance and testing? I can't remember the context though. This could be in keeping with what I've been saying. Also if they can see the future are they saying it's immutable? Or, more scary, are they secretly guiding us to that future - do they want the crew to find Kobol? And why?

Adama a cylon? Nah. The Prez is more likely. Those dreams were planted there and the only way to do that is probably via her link. Of course it's possible this is another trick. Perhaps her medicine is the link they're using and throwing us a false ball to make us viewers think it's her when it may be her doctor. Just a thought.

Oh and bold Fenster - can ya make sure you tell us what something behind spoiler tags refers to? I've got something similiar in my own charter because , if there's spoiler tags, I want to know what exactly you're spoiling...

c0y0te

It was great!

Oh - and folks. Regarding spoiler tags and the issue which seems to have arisen in this thread above... let's get past this already OK? There is no need for tit-for-tat posts about this, you're better than that.

The Ep threads are to disuss the specific episode, so anything within an ep is fair game. Anything outside that ep, from future eps or other info sources should be avoided or enclosed in spoilers at all costs.

We have managed to get to episode 8 so far with lots of really healthy debate, loads of fun and some interesting theories.. so lets keep it that way. Leave the bitch slappin at home and get back to what you're good at - discussing the episode and and the series.

Any issues - contact me privately to discuss, but please don't take over the thread with this spat. Thank you.

c0y0te

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It was great!

maybe the cylons are letting the fleet survive because they know it will find earth and they want to find earth to wipe out all of humanity?

like umm..john lee (?) said to starbuck.. they will find kobol, and it will lead them to earth?

maybe they're counting on that..

Fenster

It was okay...

More on the dream sequence: It was hard to make out, but El Presidente was being hunted by Galactica's marines and Lee helped her dodge them. Make of that what you will...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It was great!

see now.. I'm not sure if I should read that, because I don't know if it relates to this episode or another future one..

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Fenster wrote:

More on the dream sequence: It was hard to make out, but El Presidente was being hunted by Galactica's marines and Lee helped her dodge them. Make of that what you will...

With regards to that....

That's what i couldn't understand....

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Mordeth wrote:

see now.. I'm not sure if I should read that, because I don't know if it relates to this episode or another future one..

Actually....there is no need to spoiler tag anything on this thread that relates to the episode....only future storylines/episodes that maybe known by certain posters....

perhaps syke was kinda right...

Fenster

It was okay...

Ruggie, read the spoiler thread if you want more on the dream.

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Fenster wrote:

Ruggie, read the spoiler thread if you want more on the dream.

get ye back satan.......don't go tempting me :eek:

Fenster

It was okay...

Well there's not much I can say here as this episode reeked of the cryptic hints so beloved of JMS

MisterAnarchy

It was crap!

I dont like this foreseeing of the future lark at all.
Bit silly.

ixoy

It was okay...

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I dont like this foreseeing of the future lark at all.
Bit silly.

Neither do I but maybe it's not what it seems. If we say the Prez is a Cylon, then we can theorize that they planted the idea in her to space him. That way it's no coincidence...

Calibos

It was okay...

Have we seen incontravertable evidence for 'The link' or are we just taking the cylons word for it??

Something Starbuck said to Oben plus all the 'God fearing Cylons' malarkey has got me thinking. Oben told her that torture and pain couldn't make him talk or words to that effect. She mentioned 'the link'. ie that he couldn't be 100% certain that they weren't too far away from the rest of the cylons for the link to work. That the fear of the possibilty that his conciousness could be lost rather than transferred intact into a new body ie that he would 'really' die, would make him talk. Thus threat of drowning was an efeective torture method.

What am I on about?? I wonder is there a central Cylon Computer, ie the real brains of the Cylons. The robotic models are pure machines merely programmed but not artificially intelligent. The main cylon intelligence needs autonomous cylons capable of a certain degree of autonomous operation and decision making ie AI. Problem is AI's have a nasty habit of contemplating their own existence and getting locked into a feedback loop if left completely to their own devices. So the Central Cylon intelligence had the brainwave of talking a leaf out of the human book, and programming the autonomus 'human' cylon models with a belief in God and a belief that when they die their conciousness would miraculously be transferred acrosss the cosmos into a new body. (remember human cylons are pure flesh and bone. If they had a transmitter in their skull to transmit their conciousness, then baltars cylon detecter would only have to be a metal detector or x-ray machine)

Could these God fearing cylons be akin to kryten in Red Dwarf scoffing at lister and rimmers belief in human heaven as merely a delusion to prevent humans going mad while at the same time paradoxically believing in a robot heaven himself (because his human creators programmed him to believe in Robot heaven to prevent all the robots and toasters going mad)

Am I onto something I wonder?? Although I do like a previous posters idea about the christians and the Romans. I think I remember backround info on TOS calling it wagon train to the stars but also the writers drawing analogies/inspiration with adama/moses leading the israelites from eqypt etc etc. Seems plausible the re-imagining for the new series might also draw analogies/inspiration from a 'different' part of the bible.

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

c0y0te wrote:

The Incomprehensible:-

Ice Ice Baby - So, as wonderful as the scene with Adama in the morgue was.. can anyone explain to me where the hell the body came from? By my count, the first time they encountered this cylon mutt it was on the space station, where they left him behind to rot. The second time was onboard BSG, where he blew himself into itty bitty pieces. The third time was tonights ep where he was locked into a cell with Starbuck.....so.... what the hell is the story with the frozen dude? Where did he come from?


c0y0te

This guy is the one who was on the station before the crew got there. He was the one who got caught with adama after the explosion. He is a different model to the press/bomb guy.


Is it just me or was Caprica Boomer told to stay where they were while the Cylons set up the cabin for them, only for her to sprint back - having flashes of how much Helo loves her - and then run away?

Why isint Galactica Boomer in the Brig right now? Granted Gaius had to tell her she was human while she was there in front of him, but once she was gone why did he not get on the batphone to the bridge?

c0y0te

It was great!

OK so that means we have seen exactly how many models out of the 12 so far....?

1) Six
2) Guy on space station who is now in freezer in morgue
3) Bomber dude
4) Boomer
5) ???

c0y0te

ixoy

It was okay...

irishman_abroad wrote:

Granted Gaius had to tell her she was human while she was there in front of him, but once she was gone why did he not get on the batphone to the bridge?

He's scared. He doesn't know what may happen if he reveals Boomer is a Cylon. Maybe Boomer will know what Gaius did, for example, and threaten him. Remember Gaius is a complete coward and isn't going to risk his skin (at least not until a pivotal episode).

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

Yeah but if he finds the Cylon then he's the hero and theres no threat to him if shes locked up.

Scruff

It was crap!

nah, dont think el presidentae is a cylon, the dreams are a result of her Kabala stuff that she is doing tho cure her of her cancer. Was it not supposed to involve some new age medicne and meditating or something?

Thought the scene towards the end where starbuck walked up to the glass and put her had up against the cylons in front of everybody was a load of poo

Also thought the president was great in her good cop bad cop routine and then blew him outa the airlock anyway. I honestly thought they keep him alive long enough to test Baltar's cylon detector to make sure it worked.

oh and does anyone at all have episode 7 recorded or downloaded????? i still havent managed to get it. Bloody sys admins not liking p2p software and the like

[mod-edit] I removed spoiler tags. Was all episode related so no requirement.[/mod-edit]

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

PS can everyone stop using spoiler tags when talking about this episode please

Peace

It was okay...

A great ep...

Interesting to see Planet Boomer doing a legger. I think she knows Helo will never buy yet another hide out with power electricity and medecine... I wonder what will be done with them and how she'll explain to Helo why they have to run faster than before!

Blowing the guy out of the airlock was a mistake. They would more than likely never get any useful information out of him but they should have conducted experiments on him and at the very least use him as a control test on the cylon detector.

I wonder how his revelation about adama being a cylon will affect the relationship between el presidento and adama. Just when it was starting to get on track between them a spanner in the works.

Baltar should have ratted Galactic boomer out as soon as she left the room. This would have gained him serious street rep with the military.

The bit about finding Kobol and then finding Earth.... didn't adama make it up? How can they find a made up planet?

Ivan

It was great!

Voted amazing. Second episode in a row, that got that rating for me. Am I becoming easier to please?

I must admit, I love it when writers leave little clues throughout a series for us to pick up on. And for later on, when we know exactly what they are talking about, we can look back and go... "Ah, how cool is that?" ala. JMS and B5.

However, then you have the whole matrix reloaded problem. Where people make assumptions which make the whole storyline seem really damn good, but then unfortunately the writers had something entirely different in mind, which just seems to be **** in comparison. So for the record, I shall be staying spoiler free.

So much so, that I think I'm going to be walking out of the room at the start of each episode, as they play snippets from the rest of the episode in a few seconds at the beginning.

Anyway, as for the episode I thought it was great. This was cemented by the very gritty Starbuck interogation. The insights she displayed into reading the cylon. Trying to trip him up by logic. Either he told her what she needed to know, or cheat, disable your pain receptors. And lose to her anyway. Very remarkable.

Despite all this he remains calm, continues to throw in lies mixed with truths, as Adama put it. Made for some very intense stuff. Excellent.

One other thing, did anyone catch the reference with Boomer?
She claims to be from Troy.
Wooden horse of Troy, anyone?

I laughed, while everyone around me thought I was going crazy.
Another excellent hilarious moment was when Gaius explained to cylon boomer that it was either green or red. Then when its red, he tells her he is just "interpolating" the results. To which she replies, I thought it was just red or green. Which brings the inevitable and characteristic Gaius reply; Well, its a bit more complicated than that.

Anyway, when the cylon said to the president that Adama was a cylon, I couldnt help but think back to what Adama said originally, about him telling lies mixed with truths. And I naturally suspected, that in fact its the president that is the cylon. This is made even more clear by the dreams she had. But that would seem too obvious so...

I'm just going to have to leave it at that.

amen

It was crap!

you asked how many out of the 12 models
I took that to mean there were only 12 physical cyclons that looked human
in the mini series when the cyclons come to the Ragnor docking station if
you count there are 11 cyclons on screen with one missing (adma fought and killed it)

I think there are now only 9 human like cyclons left