What is Ireland??

marco murphy

Doesnt the constitution state Eire is the official name

Lennoxschips

Surely though Eire (agus fada for the pedants, I don't feel like opening 'character map') is the proper name, with "Ireland" being the English corruption of the Gaelic? Why should we call ourselves "Ireland" when it's a name a foreign nation made up for us?

Two sides to every argument.

Sand

Use of the name Eire, one of the official names of the state, is hardly intended to offend. Its irritating bad english but to read any more into that is a tad foolish.

Unfortunately some people have *immense* chips on their shoulders and harbour deep insecurities.

Deliberate ignorance is a common method of delivering insult. Just as the French refer to "les Anglos-Saxons" when criticising the UK/USA alliance,

Well they're French, ignorance personified + the chip on the shoulder/deep insecurities - the only time theyre polite is when theyre the ones looking for help.

sceptre

Poblachtach wrote:

Doesnt the constitution state Eire is the official name

No, but it's a bit confusing when you read it (partly because the english version is misphrased). That's why the 1996 Constitutional Review Group recommended changnig the english form of the article to "The name of the State is Ireland" and the irish form of the article to "Éire is aimn don Stát". It'll never be done.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Unfortunately some people have *immense* chips on their shoulders and harbour deep insecurities.
...
Well they're French, ignorance personified

When you said "some people" Sand, you were including yourself there I assume? Or is it acceptable for you to malign an entire nation, but when others do it its because they've got problems.

jc

RuggieBear

Here's a slightly related article from today's Irish Indo....about a man who has strong feelings on this topic

A MAN jailed for refusing to fill in his census form has said he will go to prison again over the issue.

Musician Declan Curneen from Largydonnell, Co Leitrim, declined to fill in the Central Statistics Office census form because it was a "flawed document".

He was sentenced to two weeks in jail by Manorhamilton District Court last March and was released last week after serving the sentence. But he said yesterday he was prepared to go to prison again for his beliefs.

He said he refused to sign the census form because it referred to Ireland as an island and did not reflect the reality of partition.

"I could not, in all conscience, sign this document from a number of standpoints.

"The form states that it is a census of the population of Ireland and there is no ambiguity there. Therefore, it should be a census of the 32 counties, and not just 26," he said.

He respected the census officials and the gardai who were only "doing their jobs".

"I was treated with the utmost courtesy by all concerned, but I have my views. I would like to have had the chance to put my case fully in court but I was found guilty and given the option of paying €200 or going to prison. I chose the latter."

He said was not acting on behalf of any political party or grouping. "This is a purely a personal matter," he said.

Gerry McLaughlin

bonkey

the article above wrote:

I would like to have had the chance to put my case fully in court but I was found guilt

I'm baffled how a defendant can be found guilty without being given a chance to present their case....but I guess thats a question for another thread...

RuggieBear

bonkey wrote:

I'm baffled how a defendant can be found guilty without being given a chance to present their case....but I guess thats a question for another thread...

didn't notice that... :eek:

regi

When I lived in England, I found people often referred to Ireland as Eire but never in a disparaging way. Occasionally I'd say to them that Irish people don't really like the term, and the reaction was nearly always a 'oh, but I thought they called it that themselves'.

I think skepticone's 'misguided sense of political correctness' is quite right.

mike65

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I do not believe this. I've never heard of Ireland referred to as anything other than "l'Irlande" or "la belle Irlande" by the French.

French tv called Rep of Ireland "Eire" on the sceen caption during the France- ROI soccer game in October. I remember cos it struck me as so odd at the time.

Mike.

luckat

Incidentally, the word "Shinner" is defined in Slanguage as "[nickname, abbrev. of 'Sinn Féin]. Applied by loyalists and the British to the republican party of that name (1905-) and their symathisers".

While I'm no fan of Sinn Féin, I wouldn't refer to the party, or to republicans in general, using this term.

simu

I do not believe this. I've never heard of Ireland referred to as anything other than "l'Irlande" or "la belle Irlande" by the French.

(cyclopath)

You accuse me of lying, then?

Here's an example of the word "Eire" used in French text (and a very bad pun at that ).

It's not used as much as Irlande, of course - in most examples I've seen of its use, its purpose has been to allow the author of the text to show off his/her supposedly intimate knowledge of Ireland. Certainly, there's nothing condescending about the way it's used.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

monument

Wow! Look what ‘cut and paste’ can cause.

The only reason I don’t like the use of ‘Eire’ on address etc is that it’s a bloody abuse of the English language*. Although as PC gone crazy, or a misinformed view that we all use it, it is understandable.

* not only used by the English

Sand

When you said "some people" Sand, you were including yourself there I assume? Or is it acceptable for you to malign an entire nation, but when others do it its because they've got problems.

Ive got issues with fire, I make wild generalisations about them all being hot without knowing if they all are. All water being wet and so on. When I meet a French person whose polite/mannerly and *isnt* looking for something from me then Ill allow that there is an exception to the rule. Actually If I meet anyone whose ever met a polite/mannerly French person who *wasnt* looking for something from them, Ill allow there is an exception.

Anyway, Im maligning an entire nation on the basis of dealing with them, other people are merely maligning use of the official name of the state by our former colonial masters.

cyclopath2001

simu wrote:

(cyclopath)
You accuse me of lying, then?

It's not used as much as Irlande, of course - in most examples I've seen of its use,

No, I did not accuse you of lying but I do not believe that French people commonly use 'Eire'. I speak French and I know many French people. They all say 'Irlande'. In your example, its use was contrived to make a pun and in your original example the writer was trying to be poetic by rhyming the 'e' of verte with the 'e' of Eire.

Of course many people are ignorant of the correct form address for a country, some people here probably say 'Burma' for 'Myanmar' , 'Malaya' instead of 'Malaysia' and 'asylum seeker' for anyone from Eastern Europe. I believe that people should make an effort to use the correct terms as a matter of courtesy to the citzens of those countries. I also believe that some people in the UKGBNI deliberately use the wrong form of address by way of insult. Others do so out of ignorance.

What I dislike is when I've typed 'Ireland' in a form and it's transcribed as 'Eire'.

To bring this discuission a bit more on topic, we could ask ousrselves if what we really mean by 'Ireland' or 'Irish' is "a state of 'not being British'"' or if there's something more positive to it than that.

Victor

The constitution defines (a) a Nation (b) a State. The former covers the entire Island the latter a lesser area.

sovtek wrote:

Then what is Great Britain or Britain?

An island.

Victor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Of course many people are ignorant of the correct form address for a country, some people here probably say 'Burma' for 'Myanmar'

Well there is a certain fuzziness. www.cia.gov

Government Burma Top of Page
Country name:
conventional long form: Union of Burma
conventional short form: Burma
local long form: Pyidaungzu Myanma Naingngandaw (translated by the US Government as Union of Myanma and by the Burmese as Union of Myanmar)
local short form: Myanma Naingngandaw
former: Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma
note: since 1989 the military authorities in Burma have promoted the name Myanmar as a conventional name for their state; this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma, and the US Government did not adopt the name, which is a derivative of the Burmese short-form name Myanma Naingngandaw

Redleslie2

Sand wrote:

Ive got issues with fire, I make wild generalisations about them all being hot without knowing if they all are. All water being wet and so on. When I meet a French person whose polite/mannerly and *isnt* looking for something from me then Ill allow that there is an exception to the rule. Actually If I meet anyone whose ever met a polite/mannerly French person who *wasnt* looking for something from them, Ill allow there is an exception.

Anyway, Im maligning an entire nation on the basis of dealing with them, other people are merely maligning use of the official name of the state by our former colonial masters.

That's the saddest rationalisation of straightforward nationalist bigotry and xenophobic stereotyping I've seen in a while. All the sadder coming from the same person who wrote this.

There are plenty of assholes out there. Humans are practically designed to pick on those different from them - why should it be any different for immigrants? Add to that the way petty crime in our country has become almost acceptable and expected - something you deal with. Assholes like Anto and co do it because they know theyll get away with it. They know that no one else will get involved, and they know theyre highly unlikely to be identified and arrested let alone jailed.

If you want to crack down on racist acts then crack down on petty crime - make it unacceptable on a cultural and policing level. That people will not actually walk around someone getting mugged but intervene, that they wont pretend not to have heard someone shouting abuse at a foreigner but actually tell the gob****e involved to shut up.

Anyway, 'Ireland is the old sow who eats her own farrow' said Jimmy Joyce at some point after he'd been run out of the place for writing mad dirty books.

And Eire comes from the name of one of three tuatha de danann queens. The other two (Fodhla and Banba) were slappers allegedly. So use of Eire is not really offensive in any way. If anything it's a reminder of what an interesting history the island has had.

cyclopath2001

Victor wrote:

Well there is a certain fuzziness. www.cia.gov

cia wrote:

this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma, and the US Government did not adopt the name,

bbc.co.uk wrote:

A largely rural, densely forested country, Burma (or Myanmar, as it is also known) is festooned with the symbols of Buddhism.

LonelyPlanet.com wrote:

Since 1988 Myanmar (formerly known as Burma) has been under the military rule of the State Peace and Development Council (SPDC) - formerly known as Slorc - an abominable military junta.

I think this does raise the issue of whose authority you choose rely on when you decide what form of the name of a country to use. Do we impose our own version when we disapprove of the government of the country in question?

Victor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Do we impose our own version when we disapprove of the government of the country in question?

Well, while the above could certainly be construed as a wee bit of cultural imperialism "because we don't like your government, we aren't going to recognise anything it does", which would be a gross double standard.

Zaphod

monument wrote:

The only reason I don’t like the use of ‘Eire’ on address etc is that it’s a bloody abuse of the English language

It's equally a bloody abuse of the Irish language.

Eire - masc., a burden, a heavy burden (Dinneen).

simu

Zaphod wrote:

It's equally a bloody abuse of the Irish language.

Eire - masc., a burden, a heavy burden (Dinneen).

Éire - fem., Ireland (Dineen also)

and there's no fada on the "e" in the masculine noun eire - so they sound different too.

thejollyrodger

I would rather call Ireland Irlande or Éire. I dont know why this isnt the case

Then what is Great Britain or Britain?

Britain is England and Wales,
Great Britain is England, Wales and Scotland.

sceptre

thejollyrodger wrote:

Britain is England and Wales,
Great Britain is England, Wales and Scotland.

AFAIK the island is called Great Britain (or Grande Bretagne) to distinguish it from (little) Brittany (or Bretagne)

Can I move this to the non-existant Geography board now?

bonkey

Too late