Dr. No - Paisley Pattern (again!)

billy the squid

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Signed: Mr. Hyprocrite from Dublin

werent there bombs planedd in dublin during the 70s

don't recall the same thing happening in waterford though.

A Dub in Glasgo

billy the squid wrote:

werent there bombs planedd in dublin during the 70s

.

You are right.. the biggest mass murder in the Republic and a huge cover up from the Irish & British authorities.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You are right.. the biggest mass murder in the Republic and a huge cover up from the Irish & British authorities.

How many deaths were the IRA responsible for?
How many times did SF fail to condemn these acts?

Tony Blair and Bertie invested so much time in the pewace process. They then have then to deal with people like Adams and Paisley.


Insisting that photographic evidence of the IRA ridding itself of their weapons and then making these photos available to the public 2 months after decommissioning was the compromise.

It seems to have been rejected by SF/IRA. It is odd from the non too media shy SF. Photographs of Warrington and Enniskillan are far more damning on the IRA.

But it is now up to SF and the DUP to compromise. I hope they will.

(I am not getting involved in apportioning blame - A compromise has to be reached)

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

How many deaths were the IRA responsible for?
How many times did SF fail to condemn these acts?

Quite a bit... what has that got to do with my post?

FTA69

Horeb-Security wrote:

FTA you seem to be so well informed from Waterford, did the troubles ever affect there really eh no, you and people from well down south shout the odds but in fact you have never seen a thing an support from a comfortable distance, johnny the fox and other person from the north and surrounding areas have live or are living there and are neither armchair republicans or barstool republicans such as you, really want to get involved except for your uneducated views and one sided attitude.


Have a good look at a blown up body which no longer looks human or a dead solider or police man, looks pretty human to me, Pal flush your head out and as for your comments about the UDR now the Home service RIR and the RUC/B Specials now the PSNI have a really good look at your history..

Armchair Republican? I am a member of Sinn Féin and I work hard for that organisation, so I fail to see how I am somehow pontificating from the sidelines.

Now, as for your comments about the "Troubles" affecting people in Waterford. Dozens of people down here were imprisoned throughout the course of the conflict, something which never would have occured if it wasn't for the political situation we have in this country. The beatings, harassment and torture administered by the Guards was also as a result of the political scenario and conflict in Ireland, the struggle was not limited to the 6 Counties and it most certainly did have an effect in the 26 Counties in general ie Dublin/Monaghan bombings, cross-border attacks from both sides as well as the H Block campaign which possible altered a government. The list is endless.

So you tell me who is "uneducated" Horeb.

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

don't recall the same thing happening in waterford though.

Another snipe from you regarding my home county Billy. I notice you ignored my last post on the subject, maybe you should spend 48 hours in Special Branch custody before you lecture me on "sitting pretty" again boy.

marco murphy

FTA69 wrote:

Armchair Republican? I am a member of Sinn Féin and I work hard for that organisation, so I fail to see how I am somehow pontificating from the sidelines.

Now, as for your comments about the "Troubles" affecting people in Waterford. Dozens of people down here were imprisoned throughout the course of the conflict, something which never would have occured if it wasn't for the political situation we have in this country. The beatings, harassment and torture administered by the Guards was also as a result of the political scenario and conflict in Ireland, the struggle was not limited to the 6 Counties and it most certainly did have an effect in the 26 Counties in general ie Dublin/Monaghan bombings, cross-border attacks from both sides as well as the H Block campaign which possible altered a government. The list is endless.

So you tell me who is "uneducated" Horeb.

Horeb,FTA69 is very intellegent,and has more knowledge here on this subject than anyone most likely.As joe cahill said,''the war here(in the north,the six counties,occupied by britain)is as much yours as it is yours''.

eakin

Well guys the IRA has said demands for photographic proof of decommissioning were "never possible".

I don’t believe the IRA has any intention of satisfying the public thats the war is now over!

For the IRA to suddenly come over all precious is really pathetic, For people to give their preciousness some sort of justification is even worse!. When they blow up the old bailey, when they murdered lord Mountbatten, when they were quite happy to have pictures taken of bodies strewn across the streets of Belfast, when they were quite happy to make propaganda videos of their hatred and murder mayhem they weren't too fussy about cameras then, but now suddenly when people want to be convinced after 3 failed acts of decommissioning thats convinced no one we can’t see any photos. Let the public see with their own eyes, seeing is believing!!!!
suddenly these precious people in the provo's might become humiliated, I think that is pathetic!!!

They are not physicolgy convinced that they must give up their violence!!
Why do they want to keep this issue secret?
Why can’t we see it?, after all wee see the watch towers being pulled down, we see the army leaving northern Ireland!!
They have never got it in their heads that violence was wrong!!!

marco murphy

As stated before one if not more time(s),it would be used as a humiliation tool.

A Dub in Glasgo

eakin wrote:

Well guys the IRA has said demands for photographic proof of decommissioning were "never possible".

I don’t believe the IRA has any intention of satisfying the public thats the war is now over!

----SNIP----

It really depends on whether you want to humilate republicans and show that the Unionists defeated them or you want to move forward past all that nonsense. You want a photo of weapons that could be bought next week as well! The whole decommissioning is a publicity stunt as groups can be armed to the teeth within a short space of time after everyone 'proved' they decommissioned what they had. Change the mindset, not go for some lust for humiliation and supply propaganda for some victory procession down the Shankill Road.

People who want to move forward should be taking the proof that was agreed through the GFA and believe the independent verifiers together with respected clergymen from both sides. That is what is on the table. Full decommissioning. Next up it will be video tape evidence that is demanded by the people who do not want to move forward. After that, it will be a deputation. After that... who knows?

You want revenge? You want blood?

Sand

Seems like all those bitter pills are to be swallowed by others on the advice of Republicans - not to be swallowed by Republican themselves. Theyd risk the future of the north over a photograph of decomissoning, something that could confirm it actually happened.

Cmon lads, move on, move on.

A Dub in Glasgo

er... You can also put it this way

Theyd [the Unionists] risk the future of the north over a photograph of decomissoning, something that was not agreed in the GFA and which respected independent adjudicators and clergymen from both sides could confirm it actually happened

Cmon lads, move on, move on.

cdebru

maybe the IRA should go ahead and disarm with the two or more clergymen as witnesses
who can then go and tell the world what they have seen
then the issue of pictures becomes irrelevant
you cant go back in time and photograph something that has already happened

cdebru

eakin wrote:

When they blow up the old bailey, when they murdered lord Mountbatten,

are those the worst things you could think of the IRA did

personally i couldn't give a **** about the old bailey

and i wouldn't lose much sleep over mountbatten either

birmingham and guildford warrington enniskilllen now i would agree with you if you mentioned them why not mention the poor kid on mountbattens boat that was terrible

but the old bailey and mountbatten

BCB

eakin wrote:

I don’t believe the IRA has any intention of satisfying the public thats the war is now over!

Thats because the war is NOT over..the war will never be over until the British leave Ireland

For the IRA to suddenly come over all precious is really pathetic, For people to give their preciousness some sort of justification is even worse!. When they blow up the old bailey, when they murdered lord Mountbatten, when they were quite happy to have pictures taken of bodies strewn across the streets of Belfast, when they were quite happy to make propaganda videos of their hatred and murder mayhem they weren't too fussy about cameras then, but now suddenly when people want to be convinced after 3 failed acts of decommissioning thats convinced no one we can’t see any photos. Let the public see with their own eyes, seeing is believing!!!!

come over all precious?The IRA have reiterated their support for a lasting peace in Ireland but WILL NOT be subject to humilation from unionist bigots like Paisley and his cronies..they had every right to blow up the Old Bailey and kill Lord Mountbatten..what you fail to address is the bloody slaughter from the British and Loyalists,it all seems to be IRA this,IRA..do you like a lot of other people on here have an unhealthy obsession about the IRA...

after all wee see the watch towers being pulled down, we see the army leaving northern Ireland!!
They have never got it in their heads that violence was wrong!!!

The Army leave the North Of Ireland?Really,thats news to me..there are MORE British Army in the 6 counties than there are in IRAQ..watch towers being pulled down..really..have you been to South Armagh recently?Id suggest you take a trip up there and then come back and tell me that watch towers/spyposts have being pulled down..its nonsense..Nationalist people in that area have to live their lives under the constant glare of prying British eyes DESPITE there being a ceasefire..the terms of the GFA also stated that these watchtowers/spyposts be dismantled but that has failed to materialise..why is it ALL about the IRA decommissioning their weapons?What about dismantling of these watchtowers?what about phasing out the British army presence in the North Of Ireland?The GFA means MUCH MUCH MORE than just the IRA decommissioning their weapons and its high time people realised this instead of obsessively discussing the implications of why they havent at this time decommissioned weapons...

Sand

er... You can also put it this way

You could, but then youd only end up sounding like a typical republican - advising us to take an immoral position for the sake of (temporary) peace.

All youve done is repeat the Sinn Fein mantra - that the bitter pills are for law abiding citizens to swallow, not for terrorist scum. Because we all know who has the gun under the table.

cdebru

Sand wrote:

You could, but then youd only end up sounding like a typical republican - advising us to take an immoral position for the sake of (temporary) peace.

All youve done is repeat the Sinn Fein mantra - that the bitter pills are for law abiding citizens to swallow, not for terrorist scum. Because we all know who has the gun under the table.

whats immoral about not wanting to be humiliated

why do you believe it is temporary peace do you know something your not sharing with us

so you think republicans should swallow all the pills
that nobody else has any responsibility for the situation we are in it is all the IRAs fault

cdebru

Sand wrote:

You could, but then youd only end up sounding like a typical republican - advising us to take an immoral position for the sake of (temporary) peace.

All youve done is repeat the Sinn Fein mantra - that the bitter pills are for law abiding citizens to swallow, not for terrorist scum. Because we all know who has the gun under the table.

just tought i would share this with you sand

Ulster Resistance (UR)
A Loyalist paramilitary style organisation which was formed on 10 November 1986 by Ian Paisley, then leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), Peter Robinson of the DUP, and Ivan Foster. The initial aim of Ulster Resistance was to bring an end to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Following a rally in the Ulster Hall in Belfast, other rallies were held in towns across Northern Ireland. The group was organised in nine 'battalions' and members wore a red beret. In November 1988 there was an arms find in County Armagh and the subsequent arrest of a former DUP election candidate brought accusations of links between DUP politicians and armed paramilitary groups. The DUP claimed that party links with the organisation had ended in 1987. Two members of Ulster Resistance were arrested in April 1987 in Paris along with a South African diplomat. It was claimed that there had been an attempt to exchange information on Shorts' missile technology for weapons. In the late 1980s some former members of Ulster Resistance joined another grouping called Resistance.



Ulster Constitution Defence Committee (UCDC)
The UCDC was established in 1966 and was made up of a committee of 13 with Ian Paisley as the head of the committee. The UCDC was the means by which Paisley led the protest against the reforms of Terence O'Neill in the late 1960s. The UCDC was also the ruling body of the Loyalist paramilitary style grouping the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV).
(see also: Ulster Protestant Volunteers; UPV)



Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV)
A Loyalist paramilitary style grouping which was established in the late 1960s. The UPV had close links with the Ulster Constitution Defence Committee (UCDC) which was established by Ian Paisley in 1966. The UPV took part in most of the counter demonstrations organised by Paisley against the Civil Rights marches of the late 1960s. The motto of the UPV was, 'For God and Ulster'.
(See also: Ulster Constitution Defence Committee; UCDC.)

now the particularly interesting thing about the last two is that they were set up in 1966 thats about 3 years before the P.I.R.A
there was no active republican groups at that time

the UPV apparently carried out bombings which they tried to blame on republicans
you see paisley was trying to kick things off for his own political gain before there was any provisionals

coincidentally the UVF also formed in 1966 many believe influenced by paisley


"In 1966, a group of Shankill Road loyalists began to use the UVF name. In contrast to the earlier manifestation this UVF was small and poorly organised. This did not prevent it from carrying out a long and heinous campaign of sectarian murder against Catholics. The man who led the new UVF was one Augustus 'Gusty' Spence who coined the phrase "any taig will do!" By this he meant that any Catholic, whether a Republican or not, would be in danger of being murdered by the UVF. Following Spence's murder of an innocent Catholic, John Scullion, on May 27th 1966"


this is 1966 the IRA is virtually non existant the PIRA does not exist

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

You could, but then youd only end up sounding like a typical republican - advising us to take an immoral position for the sake of (temporary) peace.

All youve done is repeat the Sinn Fein mantra - that the bitter pills are for law abiding citizens to swallow, not for terrorist scum. Because we all know who has the gun under the table.

No I am looking at this in a rational manner. Not wanting either side to be in the politics of humiliation. Absolutely nothing wrong with that stance and nothing immoral about it This is for a permanent peace and not some little PR stunt game that you wish to indulge in.

You are ending up sounding like a typical intransigeant Loyalist.

bonkey

Poblachtach wrote:

Horeb,FTA69 is very intellegent,and has more knowledge here on this subject than anyone most likely.As joe cahill said,''the war here(in the north,the six counties,occupied by britain)is as much yours as it is yours''.

Some short while ago (this week, last week?), anyone who disagreed with Republicanism did so because they lived in the Republic (although it was generally not referred to as honestly) and therefore couldn't understand the issues.

Now, because its someone from the Republic supporting Republicanism, all of a sudden its as much our issue as the North's, and people from the Republic can be the most informed possible.....

I didn't see the likes of you, Poblachtach, rushing up and pointing out that people from the Republic could be well informed when non-Republican supporters were being told their lack of comprehension was because they didn't live Up Norf.

Strange that.

jc

bonkey

Poblachtach wrote:

As stated before one if not more time(s),it would be used as a humiliation tool.

So let me see if I understand this....

The IRA want to actually stick to the agreement, and reach some sort of settlement but only as long as they don't perceive themselves to be humiliated.

Well thats fupping marvellous, that is.

"Sure, we'd like to show that there's a permanent end to violence, and that we're not gonna go around killing people any more...and sure we'd like peace....but only as long as that Paisley guy isn't given a chance to call us names."

Dear lord....I know pre-pubescent children with more maturity than that mindset.

jc

Villain

bonkey wrote:

So let me see if I understand this....

The IRA want to actually stick to the agreement, and reach some sort of settlement but only as long as they don't perceive themselves to be humiliated.

Well thats fupping marvellous, that is.

"Sure, we'd like to show that there's a permanent end to violence, and that we're not gonna go around killing people any more...and sure we'd like peace....but only as long as that Paisley guy isn't given a chance to call us names."

Dear lord....I know pre-pubescent children with more maturity than that mindset.

jc

I see your point Bonkey, but the problem is the IRA needs alls its members to agree to this deal otherwise it's worth nothing, and many hardline members aren't willing to let Paisley have what he wants. You can call that stupid but thats the position, I pesonally think a photograph would be better for the Republican movement because the ordinary joe soap on the street would see that the IRA were serious about Peace.

skywalker

cdebru wrote:

maybe the IRA should go ahead and disarm with the two or more clergymen as witnesses
who can then go and tell the world what they have seen
then the issue of pictures becomes irrelevant
you cant go back in time and photograph something that has already happened

see the problem id see with that is that the DUP etc could then claim it wasnt full decommisioning or poke whatever hole in it they like, and you cant do it a second time if all the arms are already gone, so your left kinda in a stalemate.

A Dub in Glasgo

We are in a stalemate as it is and if the independent overseer and respected clergymen from both sides cannot be believed and trusted, we may as well give up now.

It really is a meaningless gesture [the photo] as weapons can be bought tomorrow. I do not hear anybody complaining that we can not prove that the IRA will buy weapons or maybe that is next on the 'We do not want to share power excuse list'.

bonkey

irish1 wrote:

You can call that stupid but thats the position,

No no. I don't call it stupid. I call it childish and immature. I agree totally with your offered reasoning (once one assumes that the "no pictures" isn't just an excuse to limit/prevent general quantitative analysis).....I just think its interesting that the IRA's stated position is a tacit admission that many of their heroic supporting-the-cause-with-our-life-if-necessary heroes have the maturity of a child.

Says a lot for how well-thought-out these people's motivations can be...if they're willing to stall peace because they're afraid of someone trying to humiliate them, then they obviously think personal respect is worth more than the cause they claim they're willing to die for.

So...willing to die for a cause, but not willing to be called names for it. Willing to kill for a cause, but only as long as no-one gets to try and laugh at you for stopping.

What a noble cause that must be. I wish I cared about something so deeply and sincerely that I too would jeopardise progress on that issue because I was afraid that people would mock me over it.

I pesonally think a photograph would be better for the Republican movement because the ordinary joe soap on the street would see that the IRA were serious about Peace.

There's a lot of reasons why supplying the photos would be a better way forward for the Republican movement, not least amongst which is that it would once again turn the tables and put the pressure on the Unionists to live up to their promises...

jc

bonkey

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I do not hear anybody complaining that we can not prove that the IRA will buy weapons or maybe that is next on the 'We do not want to share power excuse list'.

I think its actually second on the list after the "how do we know they don't have more anyway" excuse.

jc

BCB

irish1 wrote:

I see your point Bonkey, [B]but the problem is the IRA needs alls its members to agree to this deal otherwise it's worth nothing, and many hardline members aren't willing to let Paisley have what he wants[/B]. You can call that stupid but thats the position, I pesonally think a photograph would be better for the Republican movement because the ordinary joe soap on the street would see that the IRA were serious about Peace.

Thats correct hardline members of the Provos especially from the South Armagh are not happy in the slightest about another act of decommissioning..look what happened when SF originally signed up for the GFA...there was a split in the ranks and the self styled "RIRA" were formed,also the 32CSM their Political wing..that split might have been relatively small,but i could almost guarantee should there be another act of decommissioning and Sinn Fein`s demands are not met,there is likely to be another split in the ranks although this time it could be considerably bigger,whether or not these IRA Volunteers join the ranks of the "RIRA" or not is unknown,more than likely they might meaning tyhe "RIRA" would be in a far better position to wage guerilla war against the British..

bonkey

BCB wrote:

members of the Provos especially from the South Armagh are not happy in the slightest about another act of decommissioning..

So what? Is the IRA a democracy now? Either they do what their organisation instructs, or they effectively admit (through their actions) that they are simply self-serving thugs who believe in "our way or no way".

look what happened when SF originally signed up for the GFA...there was a split in the ranks and the self styled "RIRA" were formed

Which was - at the very least - an improvement over when the PIRA were conducting activities. It was better then to have 90% on board a plan than to scrap the plan and have 0% on board...and the same holds true today.

Refusing a solution on the grounds that "some of our members are against it" is nothing more than an affirmation of acceptance of "rule by the gun".

jc

Sleepy

Poblachtach wrote:

As stated before one if not more time(s),it would be used as a humiliation tool.

Surely, given Sinn Fein's knack for spin-doctoring and propoganda, it could be used both ways?

IMHO, a photo proving significant decommisioning (a controlled explosion of some semtex perhaps?) could be used as a massive hammer to force unionists to follow suit with a similar level of decomissioning. Who comes out looking worse after the decomissioning: those rendering a large part of their arsenal beyond use or those that still refuse to do so despite a unilateral gesture on the part of their counterparts?

Quite frankly I'm surprised Sinn Fein haven't managed to get the IRA to go down this path, especially as we approach an election...

eakin

Very interesting thread indeed!!

No point talking about what they should do, the IRA have already stated that photography never was an option.

I do see where both sides are coming from though...

Surely some sort of agreement can be reached, perhaps going ahead with the two clergymen idea and maybe also showing the DUP a selection of photographs, in that way it won't be as "humiliating" for the IRA as the entire public will not actually see the photgraphic evidence???

Because at the end of the day we all know Paisley isn't gonna wake up some day and change his mind about the whole photograph idea!!