Dr. No - Paisley Pattern (again!)

gandalf

Actually I think that having photographs published should be a bitter pill that the IRA and Sinn Fein should have to swallow. People who have lost relatives have seen the killers of their family, friends and loved ones released on mass, should they not have the satisfaction of seeing the weapons that those killers used to kill those loved ones put out of commission. Maybe rather than looking at it as humiliation it should be viewed as a beginning of a reconciliation between both communities.

Why not take the lead rather than be dragged along all the time.

Sleepy

gandalf wrote:

Why not take the lead rather than be dragged along all the time.

My opinion exactly tbh. If JFK was prepared to do it with Nukes in the 60's surely the IRA can do it with a chunk of their arsenal and gain the moral high-ground over the DUP. There's nothing stopping them from going ahead as initially planned and using the moral high-ground to force the unionists to match their terms. Taking the lead and acting unilaterally would be a serious political coup for Sinn Fein and given that the political battleground is now to be the only one they have, why not take the higher ground?

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

Another snipe from you regarding my home county Billy. I notice you ignored my last post on the subject, maybe you should spend 48 hours in Special Branch custody before you lecture me on "sitting pretty" again boy.

I am not a member of an organisation which has connections with a band of murderers, therefore the special branch is the least of my worries.

as an aside, it would be hard for the IRA to take pictures of dicommissioned guns when they have sold them on to the likes of the Ryans and the Keanes in Limerick and their ilk.

Cork

gandalf wrote:

Actually I think that having photographs published should be a bitter pill that the IRA and Sinn Fein should have to swallow. People who have lost relatives have seen the killers of their family, friends and loved ones released on mass, should they not have the satisfaction of seeing the weapons that those killers used to kill those loved ones put out of commission. Maybe rather than looking at it as humiliation it should be viewed as a beginning of a reconciliation between both communities.

Why not take the lead rather than be dragged along all the time.

I agree 100% with this posting.

Caoimhghin O Caolain attempt to commend the leaderhip of the IRA "which has clearly demonstrated its preparedness to take historic and unprecedented steps" showed insesitivity to the victims of the IRA.

SF instead of commending the leaderhip of the IRA needs to use its influence on that organisation to accept the Peace deal. Photographs will not stop the hurt and pain of 30 years of pointless violence but bargaining concessions out of democraticly elected governments to stop criminality and punishment beatings is an insult both to victims and to the Irish general public.

sceptre

Sleepy wrote:

There's nothing stopping them from going ahead as initially planned and using the moral high-ground to force the unionists to match their terms.

Yeah, it's like this. Decommission the lot. The whole lot. Take photos. Take video footage in some KLF-style propaganda stunt. Make all the material available to any journalists that want it. Hence be on moral ground so high that for a decade after they can trot out the "we decommissioned all the guns we had and proved it so everyone could see, what have your lot done? And you still won't deal with us in government?"

Paisley doesn't want a settlement on anything but his own terms. The photographic evidence isn't a stumbling block for him - he's only asking for something that he reckons he'll never get and thereby preserve some of the high moral ground for himself.

This is an opportunity, not a stumbling block. It's the best opportunity SF have had to tell the DUP to stick it for years. And while I'm not a fan of SF or almost anything they stand for, I want peace as much as the next slightly disinterested bloke. Paisley's potentially made a large error in handing Adams this opportunity to concrete SF's position as the largest nationalist party in the north. Can't see why they can't run with "we're not doing this because Paisley wants it, we're doing it because it's a bloody good idea, even if it came from Paisley". OK, so some unionists will love Paisley as a result. They weren't going to vote Sinn Fein anyway. If Adams can't see that he's not half the visionary he pretends to be.

Mercury_Tilt

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daveirl

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Mercury_Tilt

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daveirl

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Cork

I tought it was some tribe in the rain forest that had fear of photographs, but alas it seems also to effect a small little grouping called the IRA? Probably about 2 or 3 hundred in number.

Yet these people can hold up the institutions in NI. Why? Because they have arms.

I think that when you elect hard liners - you get stand offs. There is talk about humilliation - this is codswollop. Who cares?

The IRA actually did not achieve it's aims. By publishing the documents - Bertie and Tony Blair have put it up to Adams and Paisley to compromise. The ball is in their court.

FTA69

billy the squid wrote:

I am not a member of an organisation which has connections with a band of murderers, therefore the special branch is the least of my worries.

as an aside, it would be hard for the IRA to take pictures of dicommissioned guns when they have sold them on to the likes of the Ryans and the Keanes in Limerick and their ilk.

I never asked you to point out my political connections, I asked you to stop referring to my location as it has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Also, you are the first person to come up with the accusation that the IRA were arming drug gangs in Limerick, even the guards deny any involvement by the IRA (I suppose they are all Republican moles are they?), they did however point the finger at the Continuity IRA, an entirely seperate organisation. Whether that accusation is true or not I don't know and neither do you to be honest.

FTA69

Many people here raise the question of "why can't Republicans video decomissioning and take the high ground?". It is indeed a valid question but it becomes naieve when held up to the political scenario in Ireland today.

The man who demands to be appeased, Ian Paisley, is not concerned about international pressures or demands, he also could not care less how his political opponents percieve him and I doubt his electorate does either. Paisley is perfectly content do have direct rule over power sharing with Republicans and would undoubtedly pocket any concession on arms beyond use without feeling any obligation whatsoever to set up power sharing in the Six Counties. Before the IRA will put arms beyond use there needs to be a clear guarantee by both the two governments as well as the DUP that the political process will move forward and the DUP will be prevented in future from throwing a spanner in the works of progress. Such guranantees have not been given and as such the IRA are not going to see their contribution flushed into oblivion while the current political mess remains.

Regards humiliation, the GFA is a peace process that was set up with the intention of creating a political climate in which the armed conflict could be ended and settled. For peace in Ireland to prevail a process of reconciliation by all sides is needed, for instance prisoners have been released and apologies have been issued from some sides. A process of peace and co-operation cannot survive when one side demands another "wear their sackcloth and ashes" and makes gestures that will be used to denigrate themselves. People here have said that this incident somehow "proves" the IRA do not want peace, remember, this is the same IRA that offered to put all arms beyond use before Christmas as well as bringing in witnesses. The issue of arms beyond use has been hijacked by Paisley who simply keeps raising the bar higher and higher bringing in the issue of photos and what not as well as demanding "humiliation" (his words, not ours), to me that shows the DUP and rejectionist Unionists are the ones linked to the old ways.

BCB

Again i ask the question..why the fcuk does it all seem to be about the Ra decommissioning weapons?what about the demands of Republicans?What about a withdrawal of British troops from the 6 counties?is that going to happen should be there be another act?is there going to be a dismantling of British Army spyposts/watchtowers?will be there be a concerted offort to eradicate bigotry and sectarianism which is still rife in the North?all valid questions that NEED to be addressed and answered......

TomF

I agree that it always seems to be about the IRA who are being held to a high standard, and never the alphabet soup of Unionist crazies. When I consider that all of this violence came about in the first place because of the intolerable conditions that Catholics had to live under in the Northern Ireland statelet, it seems high hypocrisy to me for auld Paisley to be given such reverent attention. , especially when you remember the RTE blackout imposed on any and all political comment from Republican Nationalists for so long. Lets see the British Army and PSNI start some serious sweeps through Protestant/Unionist neighbourhoods in Belfast and clean out the weapons there.

I'd love to see Sinn Fein give Bertie, Ltd. a good run for his money in coming elections and put the spotlight into the less appetizing corners of the party-in-power. I don't mean to say that I like much of the socialist/feminazi blather that gets published as serious political discourse in Sinn Fein literature or in Sinn Fein storefronts. I think Sinn Fein should stick to the knitting Ireland back to a 32 county nation instead of trying to outdo the Socialist Workers in whacko policies.

Oggy Doggy

bonkey wrote:

More likely, what you should get from that passage is that there is no end of excuses Paisley et al have at their disposal to argue that he's still not satisfied, and the whole "able to re-arm" is just one of them.

Ask yourself this...who amongst the Unionists or decomissioning overseers currently has a detailed, verifiable list of all weapons that the IRA have in their possession? No-one, right?

So...no matter how much the IRA decomission, and what evidence there is of it, how do you ever prove that they haven't got more already stashed away? Didn't we see the exact same thing with Iraq - there was that Saddam could prove he didn't have WMDs. Similarly, there is no way the IRA can ever prove they have decomissioned fully.

And if you think I'm paranoid...listen to what Paisley is saying these days. He's saying that he is now willing to partake in a power-sharing agreement once he has proof that the IRA have fully decomissioned.

Bravo Mr. Paisley. Rewording an unproveable universal negative into something that sounds reasonable. Bravo.

jc

I figured I'd bump this up to the top because it was well said!

Sleepy

FTA69 wrote:

The man who demands to be appeased, Ian Paisley, is not concerned about international pressures or demands, he also could not care less how his political opponents percieve him and I doubt his electorate does either.

So? Fúck him, take the moral high-ground and bring the rest of the world on-side. I know were Sinn Fein to do this they'd actually figure on my ballot sheet: right above Fianna Fail and below everyone else. Not much, but I'm sure it'd win a lot of votes north and south of the border.

Before the IRA will put arms beyond use there needs to be a clear guarantee by both the two governments as well as the DUP that the political process will move forward and the DUP will be prevented in future from throwing a spanner in the works of progress.

Why? Unless the IRA aren't committed to peace, there's no need to keep the weapons.

remember, this is the same IRA that offered to put all arms beyond use before Christmas as well as bringing in witnesses. The issue of arms beyond use has been hijacked by Paisley who simply keeps raising the bar higher and higher bringing in the issue of photos and what not as well as demanding "humiliation" (his words, not ours), to me that shows the DUP and rejectionist Unionists are the ones linked to the old ways.

Offering and doing are two different things tbh.

FTA69

As I said above, at the end of the day "world opinion" won't make a blind bit of difference when one is dealing with the linkes of Paisley, he feels no sense of pressure from what people in either Europe or the US think. The only people who can move the DUP are the British government and without the prospect of IRA decommisioning they will not feel any obligation to implement any reform or guarantee progress on the issue of GFA implementation.

The IRA have made numerous initiatives regarding this process and they are not going to make a jump only to find out Big Ian or the brits have pulled the rug from under them. Until the framework for progress is put in place by the brits, and a guarantee that the DUP will not be allowed to freeze the workings of the GFA, Republicans will not make any decisive moves. And that's the way it is.

mycroft

Actually one of the other clauses the IRA refused to sign up to was
the section about "the need to uphold and not to endanger anyone's personal rights and safety"

This means the IRA refused to give up their self proclaimed right to use so called puinishment beatings, shooting and other forms of violent social control.

That doesn't seem to me that they're wholly deadicated to the whole ballot box and want to keep some weapons handy to deal with joyriders

cdebru

anybody hear anthony mcintyre on 5/7 live

he said that the IRA dont want to publish photos because they are privately briefing republicans up the north telling them that decommissioning never happened and that they can have access to the weapons anytime they want

photos would mean that they could not spin this yarn to grassroot republicans

Mighty_Mouse

No what I'm asking is would you accept them saying "We destroyed 5000kg of Semtex, 16 Ak-47's

Would you accept that humilation, surrender etc have no part in a "new beginning"?

arcadegame2004

Sorry but I really feel that if the IRA are genuinely intent on destroying their weapons they should show us the visual reality of this being physically done. I understood when voting on the GFA that all IRA guns would be decommissioned within 2 years.

The LVF televised their decommissioning so why can't the IRA?

Also, it is a bit rich for the IRA to accuse others of trying to inflict "humiliation" on them considering that they impaled people to fences, smashed their limbs, and provided us with endless TV pictures of innocent people being slaughtered.

Give no legitimacy to terrorism, please.

Hagar

I'd like to wish Ian Paisley a Merry Christmas but it would be a waste of time.
The miserable fúcker wouldn't know merry if it bit him in the arse.

FTA69

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Sorry but I really feel that if the IRA are genuinely intent on destroying their weapons they should show us the visual reality of this being physically done. I understood when voting on the GFA that all IRA guns would be decommissioned within 2 years.

The LVF televised their decommissioning so why can't the IRA?

And when Republicans voted for the GFA they expected Patten reforms and demilitarisation but here we are...

As for the LVF, I think Gerry Adams summed it up best, "they went out and killed someone the next week, it was a joke". While the IRA are on cease-fire and are fully committed to a political process the LVF are not and are continued to be engaged in drug-dealing and sectarian attacks. The two incidents are not comparable.

arcadegame2004

FTA69 wrote:

And when Republicans voted for the GFA they expected Patten reforms and demilitarisation but here we are...

As for the LVF, I think Gerry Adams summed it up best, "they went out and killed someone the next week, it was a joke". While the IRA are on cease-fire and are fully committed to a political process the LVF are not and are continued to be engaged in drug-dealing and sectarian attacks. The two incidents are not comparable.

The Patten reforms HAVE been implemented. It's just that SF has moved the goalposts and won't sit on the district policing-partnerships. And there has been demilitarisation. But with the peace-deal still not secure, there obviously cannot yet be as much of a scaling down of security as there otherwise would be.

The IRA took 6 years to decommission a single bullet, and now they are holding things up over refusing to prove to us that they are decommissioning a significant proportion of their weapons. If they are serious about doing it then what harm can it do to show us the visual proof of it? Or do they need it for certain bank-robberies like the one yesterday?

Mighty_Mouse

Sorry but I really feel that if the IRA are genuinely intent on destroying their weapons they should show us the visual reality of this being physically done

I find it hard to believe that at this stage in the game anybody "really" feels that the IRA are not genuine about destroying their weapons!

Arcadegame- did everybody not agree on the rules for decommissioning i.e. independant witnesses, veritable proof etc

oh! Thats right............that was before the IRA did the impossible. My mistake.

Again, can somebody please explain to me how photographs are not humilation and surrender tactics forced on republicans.

Finally, comparing the IRA's contribution to this peace process versus the loyalists is a joke. In fact it so effin crazy that it's not worth talking about! i doubt even Paisley could applaud the loyalist terrorists for anything they've done todate.

FTA69

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Patten reforms HAVE been implemented. It's just that SF has moved the goalposts and won't sit on the district policing-partnerships. And there has been demilitarisation. But with the peace-deal still not secure, there obviously cannot yet be as much of a scaling down of security as there otherwise would be.

The IRA took 6 years to decommission a single bullet, and now they are holding things up over refusing to prove to us that they are decommissioning a significant proportion of their weapons. If they are serious about doing it then what harm can it do to show us the visual proof of it? Or do they need it for certain bank-robberies like the one yesterday?

Patten reforms have not benn implemented in full, aspects of them have, but little progress has been made in the field of the Special Branch, policing is still subject to intelligence and counter-insurgency elements. Even the Brits, Dublin Government and the SDLP will admit Patten has not been implemented in its entirity. Maybe you might want to educate yourself on the subject before you comment on it so vociferously.

Regards decommisioning, a process was agreed by all parties concerned in 1998, ie independent confirmation of decommisioning taking place. Is De Chastelin not to be trusted now? The IRA also went beyond what was ratified by all when they accepted the prescence of clergy witnesses, you speak of "moving goalposts", but the truth is that the goalposts seem to be on a conveyer belt controlled by Big Ian and his band of Merry Men. Besides, "visual evidence" is a moot point considering ALL arms were to be put beyond use in any deal that was to be agreed.

Regards the recent bank robbery, any evidence of your claim?

true

If the IRA wanted peace they would decommission. They have by far the largest stash of illegial arms and explosives in N. I., yet we have not seen them decommissioning evan half as much as the LVF did, when they decommissioned guns on television. Come on, we are not fools.

Poker_Peter

Regards decommisioning, a process was agreed by all parties concerned in 1998, ie independent confirmation of decommisioning taking place. Is De Chastelin not to be trusted now? The IRA also went beyond what was ratified by all when they accepted the prescence of clergy witnesses, you speak of "moving goalposts", but the truth is that the goalposts seem to be on a conveyer belt controlled by Big Ian and his band of Merry Men. Besides, "visual evidence" is a moot point considering ALL arms were to be put beyond use in any deal that was to be agreed.

I don't think Arcadegame is saying that De Chastelin is not to be trusted. We need to look at things from the other side's point of view because after all, without their consent, nothing is gonna happen.

arcadegame2004

Would you accept that humilation, surrender etc have no part in a "new beginning"?

Mighty Mouse, it is only those things if you view compromise as surrender, which I believe we were accusing the DUP of doing until they recently signalled greater flexibility than ever seen before.

I think SF/IRA have assumed their own Green siege mentality to compliment the Orange one. Instead of seeing decommissioning information being revealed i.e. inventory, pictures, as humiliation, I and likely even the Unionists would see it as a signal of good faith. It is hardly surprising that the IRA's word is being questioned in terms of its sincerity when you consider that according to Anthony McIntyre on RTE Radio 1 recently the IRA leadership were spreading stories among the grass-roots that the IRA hadn't decommissioned at all and that De Chastelain had been fooled. From Unionist eyes, that most seem like confirmation of what they see as the IRA's bad faith.

You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies, and that inevitably requires hard compromises. Unionists made big compromises in 1998 with the GFA signing and the IRA made the Irish people wait 6 years before a single bullet was supposedly decommissioned. Why couldn't the IRA give any information about the form the decommissioning took, or at least what was decommissioned and in what quantities?

Don't ask me to sympathise with the IRA over ego issues. They humiliated thousands of innocent men, women and children whom they terrorised north and south for decades they can have some "humiliation" or whatever they call it!

billy the squid

nstead of seeing decommissioning information being revealed i.e. inventory, pictures, as humiliation, I and likely even the Unionists would see it as a signal of good faith

I doubt very much that the likes of Ian Paisley would give the IRA credit for decommissioning, I imagine he would use it to feed his own ego. the man doesnt give a toss about the peace process, he is more concerned with his own profile.

This, however is no excuse for the IRA to stall on the issue of photographing decommissioning in progress. If they were to do this it would make Ian paisley look like the self-centred little imp that he is rather than humiliate the IRA.

If the IRA were to decommissioned, they would be praised by the majority of the republican movement rather than humilliated by thema