Dr. No - Paisley Pattern (again!)

FTA69

To address true, the IRA's decommissioning was viewed and confirmed by an independent commission, it also made a large contribution in undoing various logjams in the political process. While the IRA's contribution is meaningful considering they are on ceasefire and are engaged in a political process, the LVF's is a farce considering they still engaged in sectarian murders and the targeting of innocent nationalists. The two situations are not comparable so stop trying to pretend they are.

Arcadegame, the IRA are not afraid to deal with the issues of arms at all, they have done so in three previous acts so it is not like they are reluctant to cross any rubicon so to speak. However, the circumstances were created where the IRA were prepared to put ALL arms beyond use and to have this witnessed not only by the IICD as was agreed, but by clergymen too. It was Ian Paisley who introduced the concept of humiliation into the equation, not the IRA. The logjam is indeed the result of more than a photo, Republicans will not make any move of such significance without a guarantee from the two governments that political progress along the lines of the GFA will continue regardless of what rejectionist unionism demands. The IRA are not going to take a monumentous jump and then leave progress to be a decision taken by the likes of Ian Paisley. He has to ask himself whether he wants the issue dealt with once and for all or whether he wants to turn the issue into one of humiliation and petty ego building.

As for Anthony McIntyre, he is detested by most in the Republican Movement and is not connected with us in any way. What he says is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

arcadegame2004

Arcadegame, the IRA are not afraid to deal with the issues of arms at all, they have done so in three previous acts so it is not like they are reluctant to cross any rubicon so to speak. However, the circumstances were created where the IRA were prepared to put ALL arms beyond use and to have this witnessed not only by the IICD as was agreed, but by clergymen too.

But what you and others need to realise is that in order for Paisley to sell a deal to his followers, who are obviously more hard-line than the Trimblites, he needs visual proof the decommissioning actually happened.

If the IRA won't budge on the visual evidence issue, then the Irish Government should hold a referendum on whether the people think the IRA should provide video-evidence/photos of the decommissioning. A Yes vote is likely as even Irish people have lost patience with the IRA , which spent 6 years shouting "not a bullet, not an ounce of semtex", and now seems to potentially be implicated in the Northern Bank robbery. How do bank robberies further "Irish freedom"? :rolleyes:

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

As for Anthony McIntyre, he is detested by most in the Republican Movement and is not connected with us in any way. What he says is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

why would you detest anthony mcintyre

Anthony Mcintyre is a former IRA member who spent 18 years in prison alot of it on the blanket

I presume you believe in his right to free speech without having his house picketed
http://members.freespeech.org/irishpows/NEWS/GFA_ENFORCERS/irwg_condemns%20_attack.htm

the fact that he raises questions that are hard for provisional republicans to deal with is no reason to detest the man.

Dont just follow the authoritarian leadership of provisional sinn fein.
I suggest that you read his website it is very interesting
http://lark.phoblacht.net/


you wont build a better Ireland by following the example of the free state and the british and censoring anything you find uncomfortable

FTA69

I never said I personally detested him, I said most in my movement do, which is a fact.

I also read The Blanket regularly.

I disagree with much of his statements and I'm of the opinion that he is often more concerned with demonising Sinn Féin and the IRA than he is with much else. Than having been said, I do appreciate his contribution tot he struggle and the time he spent in prison.

FTA69

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But what you and others need to realise is that in order for Paisley to sell a deal to his followers, who are obviously more hard-line than the Trimblites, he needs visual proof the decommissioning actually happened.

If the IRA won't budge on the visual evidence issue, then the Irish Government should hold a referendum on whether the people think the IRA should provide video-evidence/photos of the decommissioning. A Yes vote is likely as even Irish people have lost patience with the IRA , which spent 6 years shouting "not a bullet, not an ounce of semtex", and now seems to potentially be implicated in the Northern Bank robbery. How do bank robberies further "Irish freedom"? :rolleyes:

I don't care what Paisley "needs" to sell his followers anything, this is not a case of poor Ian being squeezed between his own hardliners and rejectionist Republicans. It is a case of Paisley being more concerned with "humiliation" (his words) than he is the actual issue of arms being put beyond use. The DUP are bigots led by the biggest bigot in modern Irish history, their demands are neither reasonable nor complimentary with the GFA which was ratified in the main by the Irish people.

Regards the recent robbery, there is absolutely NO proof to indicate the IRA in this action and unless it is proved absolutely that they did do it, it becomes an irrelevancy in the current political process.

Regards referendums, there has already been a referendum on the GFA which states that photographic evidence is unnecessary, but if we want to go down the road you are suggesting I would like a referendum on re-unification where the Irish people act as a unit.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

I never said I personally detested him, I said most in my movement do, which is a fact.

I also read The Blanket regularly.

I disagree with much of his statements and I'm of the opinion that he is often more concerned with demonising Sinn Féin and the IRA than he is with much else. Than having been said, I do appreciate his contribution tot he struggle and the time he spent in prison.

I dont agree I think a lot of sinn fein people find it hard to deal with the inconsistencies of the provisional movement and they would rather demonise a free thinker than deal with the inconsistencies.
sinn fein has been involved in the censorship of republicans that dont agree with the GFA.It does not bode well for the republic that you would like to build if the party send around people to picket and beat up people who's opinion they diagree with

FTA69

Unfortunately much of the behaviour you have outlined does occur but they are the activities of a minority, tensions between individuals and groups run high in some places and this often overspills into violence and bullying. However, this carry-on is not the preserve of Provisionals and Republicans of other persuasions are well able to get the bats out for people who cross or disagree with them.

I disagree with censorship in all its forms and I think any case of bullying is wrong no matter who is the perpetrator. I acknowledge many faults within my own organisation but aside from this I resent McIntyre's frequent attempts to humiliate the Republican Movement. One such example was an interview he conducted with an ex-RUC branchman in which he played up the allegations of Castlereagh espionage as well as chiding the IRA for "being set up" and "being led into a trap", such behaviour serves nobody except the brits and I disagree vehemently with it.

BCB

true wrote:

yet we have not seen them decommissioning evan half as much as the LVF did, when they decommissioned guns on television. Come on, we are not fools.

Are you mad?the LVF decommissioned a couple of handguns FFS..the Provos have alreadt decommissioned 20 times that amount.......
:rolleyes:

gandalf

BCB wrote:

Are you mad?the LVF decommissioned a couple of handguns FFS..the Provos have alreadt decommissioned 20 times that amount.......
:rolleyes:

What is there a manifest available of what they have decommissioned then ?

true

BCB wrote:

Are you mad?the LVF decommissioned a couple of handguns FFS..the Provos have alreadt decommissioned 20 times that amount.......
:rolleyes:

I seem to remember LVF long barelleled gun being cut up on the television news. Anyway, the PIRA had much more guns and semtex imported from Libya etc. Where is the proof they destroyed even one working gun ? Word on the street is that they ( the IRA ) fooled De Chastelain.

A Dub in Glasgo

gandalf wrote:

What is there a manifest available of what they have decommissioned then ?

No manifest but there is no question that the IRA has decommissioned more than the public token effort from the LVF. Why do people not trust the Independent International Committee on Decommissioning?

The latest decommissioning event was in October 2003 when the IICD witnessed a third act of IRA decommissioning, which saw arms of light, medium and heavy ordnance and associated munitions put beyond use in accordance with the Governments’ Scheme and Regulations.

The October act of decommissioning followed two earlier acts of IRA decommissioning. In October 2001 the IICD reported that it had witnessed an event, which it regarded as significant, in which a quantity of arms had been put beyond use. In 2002 the IICD reported that it had witnessed an event in which the IRA leadership had put a varied and substantial quantity of ammunition, arms and explosive material beyond use.

http://www.nio.gov.uk/index/key-issues/decommissioning.htm

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

I seem to remember LVF long barelleled gun being cut up on the television news. Anyway, the PIRA had much more guns and semtex imported from Libya etc. Where is the proof they destroyed even one working gun ? Word on the street is that they ( the IRA ) fooled De Chastelain.

Token effort from the LVF. See the NIO website for the substantial quantity already decommissioned by the IRA.

What street says that the Independent International Committee on Decommissioning was fooled?

Poker_Peter

The latest decommissioning event was in October 2003 when the IICD witnessed a third act of IRA decommissioning, which saw arms of light, medium and heavy ordnance and associated munitions put beyond use in accordance with the Governments’ Scheme and Regulations.

The October act of decommissioning followed two earlier acts of IRA decommissioning. In October 2001 the IICD reported that it had witnessed an event, which it regarded as significant, in which a quantity of arms had been put beyond use. In 2002 the IICD reported that it had witnessed an event in which the IRA leadership had put a varied and substantial quantity of ammunition, arms and explosive material beyond use.

Out of sight, out of mind springs to mind :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Poker_Peter wrote:

Out of sight, out of mind springs to mind :rolleyes:

Maybe but it was what everybody agreed to. Are you saying that the IICD cannot be trusted?

true

Quote "Maybe but it was what everybody agreed to. Are you saying that the IICD cannot be trusted?"

What everyone ( except perhaps the IRA ) expected was that arms and explosives would be seen to be decommissioned. We have no proof the IRA done anything with even one thousanth of their huge illegal arsenal. We learnt the hard way not to trust them before.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Quote "Maybe but it was what everybody agreed to. Are you saying that the IICD cannot be trusted?"

What everyone ( except perhaps the IRA ) expected was that arms and explosives would be seen to be decommissioned. We have no proof the IRA done anything with even one thousanth of their huge illegal arsenal. We learnt the hard way not to trust them before.

No you are obviously reading more than what was actually agreed. New conditions eh?

What street says that the IIDC were fooled?

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

"No you are obviously reading more than what was actually agreed. New conditions eh? "

What everyone wants - and what everyone expected - is for the IRA to give up some semtex and guns. What use are they to anyone, except to the perpetrators of the Omaghs and the bank robberies ? Wakey wakey, its the 21st century.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

What everyone wants

Sounds more like a retailer to me

and what everyone expected

How can it be expected if it was not agreed?

- is for the IRA to give up some semtex and guns.

Are you saying you do not believe the Independent International Committe on Decommissioning?

What use are they to anyone, except to the perpetrators of the Omaghs

Not the Provisional IRA

and the bank robberies ?

Have there been convictions?

Wakey wakey, its the 21st century.

Really? I must be dreaming reading your contribution

Poker_Peter

Originally posted by A Dub in Glasgow
Maybe but it was what everybody agreed to. Are you saying that the IICD cannot be trusted?

But the DUP never signed up to the GFA. They have never accepted that a majority of Unionists every voted "Yes". Also, remember that the GFA includes procedures for a "review" to make certain changes to it if necessary. Providing visual evidence of decommissioning could be seen as part of such a review, and therefore not a breach of the agreement.

true

You say "what everyone wants" sounds more like a retailer to you. Its called democracy. Democracy is not served by private illegial armies.



I know Omagh was not the Provisional IRA , but did the semtex not come from a PIRA arms dump? Where else did the real IRA come from and get its supplies. Why do you thing most ration people want these arms dumps emptied for good?


"Bank robberies ? Have there been convictions?"

Yes, quite a few over the years, Adare spring to mind for example.


Really? I must be dreaming reading your contribution[/QUOTE]

I must be dreaming looking at you outdated celtic logo.

A Dub in Glasgo

Poker_Peter wrote:

But the DUP never signed up to the GFA. They have never accepted that a majority of Unionists every voted "Yes".

So the DUP do not accept that the majority of people in NI (and the Republic) voted for the GFA?

Also, remember that the GFA includes procedures for a "review" to make certain changes to it if necessary. Providing visual evidence of decommissioning could be seen as part of such a review, and therefore not a breach of the agreement.

Probably but not providing photographic evidence of decommissioning does provide evidence of a breach of the GFA

Do you not believe the Independent International Committee on Decommissioning?

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Its called democracy. Democracy is not served by private illegial armies.

Provide the democratic evidence of what everyone wants. I can only find the GFA which accepted the Independent International Committee on Decommissiong. Do you accept the IIDC?

I know Omagh was not the Provisional IRA , but did the semtex not come from a PIRA arms dump? Where else did the real IRA come from and get its supplies. Why do you thing most ration people want these arms dumps emptied for good?

Let the IIDC do thier work then. Do you think that Semtex (or ists equivalent) will not be available in the future?

Yes, quite a few over the years, Adare spring to mind for example.

Convictions for this latest robbery? I don't think so.

I must be dreaming looking at you outdated celtic logo.

Come back to me in the Soccer forums for more discussion on that

Poker_Peter

Probably but not providing photographic evidence of decommissioning does provide evidence of a breach of the GFA

Do you not believe the Independent International Committee on Decommissioning?

I believe them but the point is that in a community as conspiracy-theorist as the Unionist community, a greater degree of proof is needed.

Now whatever is said, the fact remains that unless it is provided, there will be no political-progress.

A Dub in Glasgo

Poker_Peter wrote:

but the point is that in a community as conspiracy-theorist as the Unionist community, a greater degree of proof is needed.

What? Greater than what was agreed by the majority of people in NI? Democracy?

Now whatever is said, the fact remains that unless it is provided, there will be no political-progress.

Why not?

How can it be that the DUP can introduce new conditions to the GFA?

MrPudding

How much weaponry do they have? Do you know? Does anyone know? No? Then what is the point in photos?

Seriously people, the photo stuff from the DUP is bullsh1t. Even if we have a fcuking movie crew filming the whole thing from every angle possible how are we supposed to know it is all the weapons and how are we to know they will not purchase more.

Oh and True, the LVF weapons were sh1t. It was a token. If you think they decommissioned more weapon than the IRA I think you are badly wrong.

MrP

true

Decommissioning has not been seen to have worked by 82% of the Irish people, according to a recent poll. People want the provos to give up some semtex and guns. The LVF done their bit years ago, even though they had only ever a tiny fraction of what the IRA imported.

The Dub in Glasgow and Sinn Fein forgets that the GFA includes procedures for a "review" to make certain changes to it if necessary. Providing visual evidence of decommissioning could be seen as part of such a review, and therefore not a breach of the agreement.

Come on , the people are sick of gun and bombs, Omaghs and bank robberies, intimidation and guns under the table.

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

The LVF done their bit years ago, even though they had only ever a tiny fraction of what the IRA imported.

The LVF done their bit?

In October 2001, the British Government ruled that the LVF had broken the cease-fire it declared in 1998 after linking the group to the murder of a journalist. According to the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, the LVF decommissioned a small amount of weapons in December 1998, but it has not repeated this gesture.

Since 2000, the LVF has been engaged in a violent feud with other loyalists that intensified in 2002 with several high-profile murders and defections.

true wrote:

The Dub in Glasgow and Sinn Fein forgets that the GFA includes procedures for a "review" to make certain changes to it if necessary. Providing visual evidence of decommissioning could be seen as part of such a review, and therefore not a breach of the agreement.

You really want renegotiation of the GFA. Do you accept the Independent International Committee on Decommissioning?

arcadegame2004

MrPudding wrote:

How much weaponry do they have? Do you know? Does anyone know? No? Then what is the point in photos?

Seriously people, the photo stuff from the DUP is bullsh1t. Even if we have a fcuking movie crew filming the whole thing from every angle possible how are we supposed to know it is all the weapons and how are we to know they will not purchase more.

Well we could get an idea by asking Mr Gaddafi who much he sent to the IRA in the past and subtract from that the shipments (like on the Marita Ann) that were caught.

true

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well we could get an idea by asking Mr Gaddafi who much he sent to the IRA in the past and subtract from that the shipments (like on the Marita Ann) that were caught.

Exactly, and well said arcadegame. Was it not three of the four ships he sent got through? We know the PIRA has an huge illegal arsenal much bigger than any one elses, and certainly big enough for thousands of Omaghs, Enniskillens or Le Mons type attrocities. Why is is that a certain minority of people, inc. the Dub in Glasgow, do not want to see just SOME of that arsenal of semtex and guns decommissioned, in order to move the peace process on?

A Dub in Glasgo

true wrote:

Exactly, and well said arcadegame. Was it not three of the four ships he sent got through? We know the PIRA has an huge illegal arsenal much bigger than any one elses, and certainly big enough for thousands of Omaghs, Enniskillens or Le Mons type attrocities. Why is is that a certain minority of people, inc. the Dub in Glasgow, do not want to see just SOME of that arsenal of semtex and guns decommissioned, in order to move the peace process on?

I see you have not bothered to reply to any of my points or questions from last night!!

I fully believe the Independent International Commission on Decommissing when they state that the PIRA have decommissioned substantial weapons and explosives 3 times. Some people, whos agenda is not the peace process, now want to see the weapons being publically destroyed by plastering photos all over Ireland when this was not agreed as part of the GFA. This will move the process forward?

Do you belive the Independent International Commission on Decommissing? what street says they have been duped?