Licensing, Fan-Subs, legality etc.

po0k

So, what's the official line on it?

pingoo

SyxPak wrote:

So, what's the official line on it?

Well I do not know the legal side of this but what I know is that as long as an anime is not licensed in a country, it can be "fansubbed". You will noticed that most of the Fansubbers are deleting their project if they are licensed, now it could mean 2 things:
- The fact that it is not licensed means that you can download a fansub legally
- Because it is not licensed, no-one can really sue you for translating it so it is possible that it is not permitted but legally no-one can really do anything about this.

That's my ideas but like I said I am not familiar with the laws so I can't really confirm, just add more info

Trebor

it would be nice to know if it is legal cause if it is we should be able to post links to download sites and torrents.

pingoo

Well thinking about it, but it is legal to download MP3 from bands with no label, because well obviously they have no label, so I guess it's the same for anime, no license makes it alright ... I really don't know to be honest, good post

CuLT

http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/mediafactory.html

Removal of Media Factory Inc. Works

AnimeSuki is a website that aims to be a portal for finding all unlicensed English anime torrents. By limiting the content to only unlicensed anime, we had tried to avoid associating AnimeSuki with piracy, even though as stated on the Licensed Anime page, fansubs are technically a violation of copyright. By not listing licensed anime, AnimeSuki avoided getting into any legal trouble with US anime companies, simply because we don't list anything they hold the copyright of.

As also stated on the page mentioned above, up until now (or we must unfortunately say: up until recently) fansub groups and anyone involved in the publication of fansubs had little to worry from legal pressure from Japan (ie. from the anime studios - the original copyright holders). We believed that at best Japanese anime studios condoned our actions or at least ignored us as being not much of a threat to them (in terms of revenue, etc).

Unfortunately, it seems times have changed. On December 7, 2004 AnimeSuki received an email from a Tokyo law firm who represents the interests of Media Factory Inc. (a Japanese anime studio) requesting us to stop uploading "works" (anime series) of MFI to our website and/or stop "inducing" our visitors to websites where their "works" can be downloaded.

Needless to say, AnimeSuki has never offered direct downloads of any anime series, nor (with very few exceptions) had anything to do with facilitating the downloading of any of the anime series listed on the site. Also, considering the circumstances it's not entirely sure if, in case this issue ever goes to court, whether they would succeed as AnimeSuki is nothing more than a collection of links, which should not be illegal.

However, the legal notice was addressed at me (GHDpro, creator and webmaster of AnimeSuki) personally and I do not wish to get involved in any kind of legal trouble. Therefore I have decided to remove any links to any "works" (anime series) by Media Factory Inc. from the site immediately. I hope you can understand that I don't wish to become the target of any legal action that Media Factory Inc. might take if I fail to comply with their request, regardless of the level of success such legal action might actually have. I simply want avoid any legal trouble, period.

Affected anime series by Media Factory Inc.
The decision to no longer list any anime series (present and future) of Media Factory Inc. currently affects these series:

* Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (including Akane Maniax)
* Genshiken (including Kujibiki Unbalance)
* School Rumble
* Gankutsuou
* RahXephon (OVA only, TV + Movie is licensed already)
* UFO Princess Warukyure (any season)
* Pugyuru

A complete list of Media Factory Inc. anime series can be found here.

Will fansub groups stop fansubbing these series?
That is of course entirely up to them. However, it is not entirely impossible that due to these developments fansub groups decide it isn't worth the risk and may drop these series.

Licensed?
You may have noticed the affected series (mentioned above) are now marked as "licensed" in the database of AnimeSuki. Please note that this is only because this is the easiest way to get these series permanently off the site. It has no other purpose and meaning than that. The scripts of AnimeSuki will be modified to display a different message soon.

Is this a hoax?
Unfortunately it is not. The main reason for delaying the decision to remove the links was to verify the authenticity of the email. However, the only conclusion we could come to is that this is real. Apart from the email a real letter was also sent from Japan by international mail, futher confirming its authenticity.

The beginning of the end?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on if any other Japanese anime studio decides to follow MFI's example. AnimeSuki will continue to list fansubs of anime series for which MFI does not hold the copyright, unless told to do otherwise. So unless AnimeSuki is made obsolete by virtually every anime studio taking the same action as MFI, we won't close down!

Discussions
Discussions regarding this incident can be found on the following forums:

* AnimeSuki Forums
* AnimeNewsNetwork Forums
* AnimeOnDVD Forums
* AnimeNation Anime Forums
* Wannabe Fansubs Forum
* LunarAnime Forum
* AnimeReactor Forum
* Anime Planet Forum
* Megatokyo Forums

Doesn't look the best for Ireland if other companies take suit .
This is new news btw.

NeoSlicerZ

However do they really have any legal stance as the anime is NOT licensed?

CuLT

When anime groups refer to licensing, they're talking about American Licensing; the Japanese companies have all this stuff licensed from the get-go.

For years the Japanese studios have turned a blind eye though, because up until now (apparently) it's been doing more good than harm; free promotion of their series on foreign markets etc.
But with fansubbing groups becoming much more public (I'm sure most of you can list off at LEAST three or four subbing groups) they can no longer afford to ignore them apparently.

Zakalwe

pingoo wrote:

Well thinking about it, but it is legal to download MP3 from bands with no label, because well obviously they have no label, so I guess it's the same for anime, no license makes it alright ... I really don't know to be honest, good post

What?

No it's not legal. The artist automatically has copyright over their work.

Fansubs are illegal. Japanese companies normally don't mind as it gets the series known amongst the non-Japanese audience so they can license it out.

All that being said, yes I do download them.

Scratch Acid

I'm so glad WannabeFansubs aren’t dropping School Rumble. That show seriously gives me a hard-on.

Zakalwe

Scratch Acid wrote:

That show seriously gives me a hard-on.

I hope you don't mean that literally....

It's an above average highschool comedy show, and I have to say that I'm enjoying it.

Scratch Acid

Mmm....and the ending theme music? ...*sharp intake of breath*

Asuka

Its quite simple. Anything that is copyright in Japan is also copyright here. Distributing fansubs is illegal. Distributing music is illegal. The fact that it has only been released in Japan, and is not available for purchase in the west changes nothing officially.

Unofficially, there are a couple of seperate issues. Generally, fansubbing ethics is that once a series is lisenced, it is dropped and distribution is ceased. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) It supports the industry. Anime fans want to see the industry grow, and for that to happen people need to be buying anime. So if a series is available in the west, its only fair to buy it. If they dont, series' will not be introduced to the west anymore. Which is not good.

2) Western companies cannot threaten legal action on a fansubbing group for distribution of property which is not theirs. This is common sense. They can, however, and will threaten legal action for distribution of their property. Therefore it is a good idea not to distribute a series once it becomes their property.

In the past, Japanese studios have paid little or no attention to the fansubbing scene in the west. For a long time, it was too small to pay any attention to. However, over the past few years the general feeling from Japanese companies has been of mild disapproval, and recently - as illustrated by the MFI business - things are beginning to change. Could this change the whole face of fansubbing? Its possible. It is becoming a much bigger scene.

On the other hand, why havent American companies shut down the fansubbers already? What they are doing is piracy. Well, the truth is that there is an expected level of piracy in any form of media. If it could be totally stamped out, it would be far more hassle than its worth. Thats the first reason. The second reason is that while fansubbing is a larger 'piracy' element in anime than you would find in most other media, it is run, by and large, with a code of ethics. Fansubbers are, in general, honourable people. They stop fansubbing when a series is lisenced, or when asked - and do their best to ensure everyone else stops distributing it. They then purchase the DVDs when they are released. Pirates, yes, but of the swashbuckling and chivalrous nature.

The third reason is the most important though, to my mind. Anime is getting bigger. It may be causing problems for fansubbers, but no anime fan would rather their industry be in decline. It is getting more popular, and perversely, this is largely to do with the fact there is lots of freely available material to be downloaded. So while the western companies dont want fansubbers to ruin their business, largely what fansubbers are actually doing is drumming up interest. Your average anime fan is someone who watches fansubs, and then goes and buys the DVDs. Thats the mentality nurtured in the community - so with the exception of the genuine pirates who ignore lisencing, companies have a tendency to pay a blind eye to fansubbers.

Besides, what company wants the reputation as the 'people who killed fansubbing'? I dont think that would be very good for business!

A

Infini

Scratch Acid wrote:

I'm so glad WannabeFansubs aren’t dropping School Rumble. That show seriously gives me a hard-on.

Somethings are best kept to ones self...

Infini

Asuka wrote:

Besides, what company wants the reputation as the 'people who killed fansubbing'? I dont think that would be very good for business! A

Since it was fansubbing that got anime off the ground and gave it it's popularity in the first place and since the American companies dont have to worry much about losing money once they have the licence theres really no need for anybody to go after the fansubbers. I think the mediaworks incident was a once off as none of the larger anime studios have taken any action against the fansubbers YET.

Art_Wolf

Ah but the problem arises when shows that a groups of fansubbers translated becomes licensed...and is still distributed! For instance Full Metal Alchemist was licensed about episode 25 or so but some groups continued to translate the remaining eps of the series - now that company who bought the license does not make as much as they were expecting because people could still get it for free

The groups who drop it are fine I guess - if their versions are also stopped being spread etc.

I still download fansubs, I like to get a taste of a series before I consider buying the dvds.

Infini

Art_Wolf wrote:

I still download fansubs, I like to get a taste of a series before I consider buying the dvds.

Same here.

Asuka

Infini wrote:

I think the mediaworks incident was a once off as none of the larger anime studios have taken any action against the fansubbers YET.

Yet is the operative word in this sentance, however. Regardless of what the Western companies think - and they *do* have the most to lose if a show is being widely pirated after they release it - they are beginning to come under pressure from the Japanese studios themselves. As fansubbing becomes bigger, it gets more notice - and now the studios are paying it enough attention to know that theyre not happy about it, and not enough to realise that its the very *reason* for the demand.

The problem is that the only people who care are the ones who count the cash, and the equation to them is very simple - more piracy = less revenue. So we can defnitely expect to hear more about it in the future.

A

Infini

Asuka wrote:

Yet is the operative word in this sentance, however. Regardless of what the Western companies think - and they *do* have the most to lose if a show is being widely pirated after they release it - they are beginning to come under pressure from the Japanese studios themselves. As fansubbing becomes bigger, it gets more notice - and now the studios are paying it enough attention to know that theyre not happy about it, and not enough to realise that its the very *reason* for the demand.

The problem is that the only people who care are the ones who count the cash, and the equation to them is very simple - more piracy = less revenue. So we can defnitely expect to hear more about it in the future.

A

Better hope this doesn't go anywhere in the near future otherwise things are going to get real ugly real fast. Bad enough the MPAA have started on another front but if the fansubbers come under fire as well all hells gonna break loose.

CuLT

It'll be interesting to see how the Lokitorrent case goes, and if it will have much relevance to the fansub case. Until now it's been about America having a problem, but a ruling for p2p could neuter American companies in this regard.

Art_Wolf

OUCH! 30 grand minimum
Good luck to them..

CuLT

Oh they've got the 30 grand, up to 37 grand now; what they need is at least 30 grand for every month of the trial, and realisitcally more.

It took them three days to get up the 30. I don't think they'll have any problems raising the rest.

Infini

CuLT wrote:

Oh they've got the 30 grand, up to 37 grand now; what they need is at least 30 grand for every month of the trial, and realisitcally more.

It took them three days to get up the 30. I don't think they'll have any problems raising the rest.

They've switched back to the monthly thing again. Hope lokitorrent wins at the very least so the MPAA bastrds don't kill P2P. (It's the only way to get fansubs!!!)

Art_Wolf

Though i wonder if they will succeed when they are showing how long they can last in a batle

The MPAA can now just see how long they can hold out for - and go one month longer. If they dont press it then most other sites will print similure graphs daring them to call their bluff etc