everyone is in such a rush these days!!

D!ve^Bomb!

dahamsta wrote:

To manipulate a quote from your very first post in this thread: "The limit is there for a reason." Can you say "hypocrisy"? Stay off the motorway n00b, you're in the way of us big boys in our beamers.

adam

you mean penis extensions yeah? thats what i thought..

dahamsta

You might be right, but even John Holmes wouldn't drive a Punto...

adam

D!ve^Bomb!

it gets me from a to b.. that's all i give a **** about;)

unkel

dahamsta wrote:

but even John Holmes wouldn't drive a Punto...

Didn't John C. Holmes drive a 9-series?

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

impr0v

I saw the first post in this thread this evening and knew immediately that all that has followed it would happen.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

ambro25

At the end of the day, Newband - you don't own the M50, the fast or overtaking lane or the divine right to self-servingly enforce any kind of supposed/alleged rule or lack thereof... Just pass the car(s), but pull over when you're done and if (from what I've read) you're still learning, so to speak, then learn that if the next car is far enough for you to pull over and let the car behind you pass you at 60 or 80, then that's what you do.

I've been driving 16 years and that's still what I do: in France, Germany, the UK or Ireland... or wherever my travels/relocs take me. People give you respect from the fact that you know how to use a double carriage way, you are considerate and attentive to your driving and other road users. It sounds to me like -so far- you're just afflicted with this oh-so-common misconception about driving etiquette and downright civism afflicting most Irish drivers (in my experience so far and IMHO): "I'm in my car going my way doing what I please so f*** the lot of you - I'm always right 'til I crash!"

Oh and BTW

merc wrote:

personally I would have tailgated you from about 3 to 10 feet ....while agressivly racing up behind you till you got out of my way.

That's moronicity of the highest order - what if Newband had a sudden obstruction/car cutting him up out front: you're accelerating at the time (mass x velocity and all that) + no braking distance = you're totally f*cked, as is Newband's Punto (no bad thing in itself..., but you get the gist :mad: )

Don't ever do that to me either - I give one warning (tap brakes once) then fire full salvo if you persist (drop anchors and let you clean your pants & seats up afterwards ).

Seth Brundle

newband wrote:

you still haven't answered my previous question.. how was it a dangerous manouvre? I didn't underestimate anything.. i knew what i was doing.. the only argument you have is that i shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.. well tough ****, i'll be driving on that road again on sun, then mon, tues, weds..... and so on.. from what i gather i am one of the few safe drivers.. and i really can imagine you in an instance of road rage.. you have flashed a lot of people haven't ya.. you wouldn't be a middle aged BMW owner would ya,, cos that would explain a lot :rolleyes: more money than brains

1. if you insist on breaking the law then shut up about what happens to you on this piece of roadway. However, you should remember that if you are planning on performing an overtaking manouvre (which incidentally is one of the most dangerous manouvres you can do) then take a good look in your mirrors. If faster cars are approaching and it looks as if they will be up your arse before you have completed the manouvre then maybe reconsider the manouvre!
2. You are an inexperienced driver currently on a provisional licence, yet you still regard yourself as a safe driver? Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you the one pulling over on a dual carriageway to pick up a friend a few months back? If you think you are a safe driver then you are not! It is a wise man who knows that he has a lot to learn!
3. Youthful ignorance is sweet but it is not a proper argument. Did I get personal? Why did you? And for the record I'm not middle aged. Im 32 3/4 but I feel like Im 32 1/2! I tend not to flash people unless they do something really stupid which endangers me or my car. Furthermore, my driving skills are not under fire here - yours are!
4. Just because I drive a BMW does not mean Im rolling in it! For the record my car is 7 years old. Preferring the older styles, I got is earlier this year and cost me about the same as a basic Punto yet with approx 50k on the clock, FSH and all the extras you could want I think it was a wise spend.
5. Grow up - you want people to feel sorry for you because someone flashed you, yet as already mentioned you were driving slowly (comparitivly speaking) on a road that you shouldn't have been on in the first place. You criticise others for breaking the law yet claim that you will continue to flout the law. What do you want people to say? Are we to think you should have your cake and eat it?

dahamsta wrote:

You might be right, but even John Holmes wouldn't drive a Punto...

excellent!

unkel

ambro25 wrote:

then learn that if the next car is far enough for you to pull over and let the car behind you pass you at 60 or 80, then that's what you do.

I've been driving 16 years and that's still what I do: in France, Germany, the UK or Ireland... or wherever my travels/relocs take me. People give you respect from the fact that you know how to use a double carriage way, you are considerate and attentive to your driving and other road users.

Hear, hear! It cannot be explained often enough

ambro25 wrote:

Oh and BTW

Never mind Merc, he likes to play agent provocateur

BrianD3

A bit of give and take is needed when driving on motorways. Obviously You shouldn't hog the overtaking lane at 60 mph so that you can pass the car that's 400 metres ahead of you doing 58 mph. But I don't think that's what newband was doing. I get the impression he was overtaking a few cars who were tailgating each other (as usual in ireland) leaving him no space to move into safely, then some guy came flying up behind and didn't take account of this at all and flashed him to move over immediately even though there was no space for him to move over into. So there are two sides to this and a bit of common sense and consideration is needed on all sides

Also I disagree that there's anything wrong with overtaking at 60 mph when the car you're overtaking is doing 55 mph on an Irish motorway with a limit of 60 mph. On a lot of motorways you don't have that much rear visibility (< 1 mile or so due to curves and undulations) You could be doing 60 and pull out to overtake a lorry doing 55 with the overtaking lane behind you completely clear as far as you can see. As you're in the middle of your overtake some git screams up behind you at 130 mph and expects you out of his way NOW without finishing your overtake. You've nowhere to go so what are you supposed to do - speed up to match his speed? Drive under the lorry's trailer? Drive onto the median? Slow down and pull in behind the lorry, holding him up even more? The fact is if Mr. 130 mph had being doing a more reasonable speed for the road conditions and/or anticipating that he may come across overtaking vehicles who are actually obeying the limit, there would not be a problem.

I myself do flash people to move out of the overtaking lane but only when they're blatantly hogging it (eg the above example of staying in the overtaking lane when there's a 400 metre gap in the driving lane)

BrianD3

seamus

is_that_so wrote:

Seamus's approach to driving is not safe . By his own admission the road is full of morons. That seems to suggest a somewhat irrational attitude to driving.

I suggest you go back and read my post, and not jump to conclusions. People who hog the overtaking lane are morons. When I come up behind someone in the overtaking lane, and I see that they have ample room to move in, I keep my distance and give one, maybe two flashes of the lights (flashing your lights on a bike isn't as easy as in the car). I give them a good period of time, and if I see no sign of them moving I flash again.

For the record, I don't actually think that every other driver is a moron, but I drive with the assumption that every other driver on the road is a complete idiot, and as such is liable to do completely idiotic things. This helps me be prepared and serves as a reminder to be cautious (when I say it to myself), as someone's else's slight mistake or stupid manouver can cost me my life.

flyz

Am I wrong to say that you are allowed to go 5 miles over the speed limit when overtaking?
Do correct me if I'm wrong.

If that is the case then newband you should have accelerated a little bit more to overtake more quickly.

I hate ignorant drivers who tailgate you for no good reason. But I detest people who hog the overtaking lane, or need 200metres of road to pull in after performing an overtaking manuvre.

So I'm gonna sit on the fence for this one

kenmc

Newband
you keep referring to your going 60mph on the button. Who's button though? Maybe the lad behind had mid 50s on his speedo.... I remember going through one of those "your speed is.... " signs a while back, and checked it's reading against what my speedo said, and it was about 5 miles out (ie i was going 5 mph slower on the sign than my speedo said.) This was nice to know, cos it's a bit of a safety margin - gives me a bit of leeway. Anyway, if your tires are a bit softer, you'll be slower than the speedo says you are....
But basically -
Learner driver should not be on motorway.
Don't hog the outside (it's not a fast lane) unless you are in 2 lines of traffic and you are going the same speed as those in front and behind you.
You're not the police - if someone wants to break the law who the hell are you to stop them?? Do you go around telling people not to walk/park on cycle lanes (I wish you would - head over to kilmacud road please if you get a chance...). Do you go around telling knackers not to be drinking on street corners? How about the boys smoking in the buses????
Please describe your car to us so next time we can BLOW YOU OFF THE BLOODY ROAD, like you deserve to be, instead of just flashing you.... Surprised you even saw the flash judging to the narrowminded-ness and tunnel-vision displayed in your posts in this thread.

D!ve^Bomb!

BrianD3 wrote:

A bit of give and take is needed when driving on motorways. Obviously You shouldn't hog the overtaking lane at 60 mph so that you can pass the car that's 400 metres ahead of you doing 58 mph. But I don't think that's what newband was doing. I get the impression he was overtaking a few cars who were tailgating each other (as usual in ireland) leaving him no space to move into safely, then some guy came flying up behind and didn't take account of this at all and flashed him to move over immediately even though there was no space for him to move over into. So there are two sides to this and a bit of common sense and consideration is needed on all sides

Also I disagree that there's anything wrong with overtaking at 60 mph when the car you're overtaking is doing 55 mph on an Irish motorway with a limit of 60 mph. On a lot of motorways you don't have that much rear visibility (< 1 mile or so due to curves and undulations) You could be doing 60 and pull out to overtake a lorry doing 55 with the overtaking lane behind you completely clear as far as you can see. As you're in the middle of your overtake some git screams up behind you at 130 mph and expects you out of his way NOW without finishing your overtake. You've nowhere to go so what are you supposed to do - speed up to match his speed? Drive under the lorry's trailer? Drive onto the median? Slow down and pull in behind the lorry, holding him up even more? The fact is if Mr. 130 mph had being doing a more reasonable speed for the road conditions and/or anticipating that he may come across overtaking vehicles who are actually obeying the limit, there would not be a problem.

I myself do flash people to move out of the overtaking lane but only when they're blatantly hogging it (eg the above example of staying in the overtaking lane when there's a 400 metre gap in the driving lane)

BrianD3

THANK YOU

Someone who actually read what i have been saying!!!

D!ve^Bomb!

merc wrote:

personally I would have tailgated you from about 3 to 10 feet ....while agressivly racing up behind you till you got out of my way.

that says it all really :rolleyes:

D!ve^Bomb!

kenmc wrote:

Please describe your car to us so next time we can BLOW YOU OFF THE BLOODY ROAD, like you deserve to be, instead of just flashing you.... Surprised you even saw the flash judging to the narrowminded-ness and tunnel-vision displayed in your posts in this thread.

:rolleyes:

D!ve^Bomb!

kbannon wrote:

1. if you insist on breaking the law then shut up about what happens to you on this piece of roadway. However, you should remember that if you are planning on performing an overtaking manouvre (which incidentally is one of the most dangerous manouvres you can do) then take a good look in your mirrors. If faster cars are approaching and it looks as if they will be up your arse before you have completed the manouvre then maybe reconsider the manouvre!

I always look in my mirros and i ALWAYS check my blind spot.. there were no cars fast approaching

kbannon wrote:

2. You are an inexperienced driver currently on a provisional licence, yet you still regard yourself as a safe driver? Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you the one pulling over on a dual carriageway to pick up a friend a few months back? If you think you are a safe driver then you are not! It is a wise man who knows that he has a lot to learn!

Actually that wasn't me..

kbannon wrote:

3. Youthful ignorance is sweet but it is not a proper argument. Did I get personal? Why did you? And for the record I'm not middle aged. Im 32 3/4 but I feel like Im 32 1/2! I tend not to flash people unless they do something really stupid which endangers me or my car. Furthermore, my driving skills are not under fire here - yours are!

I didn't do anything stupid.. if i remember correctly it was the guy behind me who was stupid

kbannon wrote:

5. Grow up - you want people to feel sorry for you because someone flashed you, yet as already mentioned you were driving slowly (comparitivly speaking) on a road that you shouldn't have been on in the first place. You criticise others for breaking the law yet claim that you will continue to flout the law. What do you want people to say? Are we to think you should have your cake and eat it?

At what point was i looking for sympathy?

Bogger77

kenmc wrote:

Please describe your car to us so next time we can BLOW YOU OFF THE BLOODY ROAD, like you deserve to be, instead of just flashing you.... Surprised you even saw the flash judging to the narrowminded-ness and tunnel-vision displayed in your posts in this thread.

Be much better if he just gave us his number plate, we could ask the nice friendly garda to pop round and have a nice chat to him about all the illegal actions he's described himself as having performed on Irish roads.

It's quite a long list, but we have breaking speed limits, driving without a license, driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving (reversing along a dual carrageway towards another parked vehicle), driving through a garda checkpoint, that list is without searching this forum.

Can we all just agree that mr learner driver, shouldn't be driving a car on his PS2 let alone drive a real car on a major motorway.

D!ve^Bomb!

Bogger77 wrote:

driving without a license, driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving (reversing along a dual carrageway towards another parked vehicle), driving through a garda checkpoint, that list is without searching this forum.

Can we all just agree that mr learner driver, shouldn't be driving a car on his PS2 let alone drive a real car on a major motorway.

i do have a licence , i always drive with due car and attention.. i reversed towards a parked car, yes, a GARDA car you moron :rolleyes:

So you have come to terms with the fact that i was right in this situation and now you want to bring all this other **** into the argument because you have nothing else to say.. maybe you should read what BrianD3 wrote.. it seems that the majority of drivers around have no idea of what they're doing.. if all they can say is i should have speeded up or dangerously moved into the inner lane.. it's a shame really.. maybe you should take a few more lessons?

Seth Brundle

newband wrote:

I always look in my mirros and i ALWAYS check my blind spot.. there were no cars fast approaching

Well where did your man behind you come from? As you said he was behind you for a few minutes. So at some stage you pulled into the lane in which he was approaching. What distance was there between you both at this point? As you were there for a few minutes, were you unable pull into the driving lane to let him pass?

newband wrote:

Actually that wasn't me..

Fair enough!

newband wrote:

I didn't do anything stupid.. if i remember correctly it was the guy behind me who was stupid

Why? By alerting you to the fact that he was there and you were taking your time in performing a dangerous manouvre? You were also blocking him for some minutes as you said!

newband wrote:

At what point was i looking for sympathy?

Well whatever it was you posted the original message about how you took offence at this guy who flashed you

Seth Brundle

newband wrote:

i do have a licence

a provisional licence - not the same as the licence that Bogger77 was referring to. Holding a provisional licence means that you have as yet been unable to show that your driving skills are up to the (poor) level that the Irish Government require!

Bogger77

newband wrote:

i do have a licence

Not for driving on Motorways, you don't
You've a green license and looking at date of your other posts, appears to be a 1st issue too, so you shouldn't be driving unaccompanied by an experienced driver.

newband wrote:

i reversed towards a parked car, yes, a GARDA car you moron

Ahh, yes, you reversed towards them, after you'd driven through their request to stop.

newband wrote:

So you have come to terms with the fact that i was right in this situation and now you want to bring all this other **** into the argument because you have nothing else to say

Nope, every one here, so far, other than you, have said that you were in the wrong to be driving on the road, most people have said that you were in the other drivers way.

Simply put, you were not going at a fast enuf speed to safely pass the cars in front without causing an obstruction, a dif of 5 miles/hour is not enough. You are allowed to go over the speed limit by a reasonable amount (normally quoted at 10mph, in spain it's 25kph iirc), pass the cars safely, come back to the driving lane, and slow back to the limit, of course making sure you don't cause people behind you to have to brake.

Get over it, maybe it's the punto complex!

I do about 450miles a week, not saying I'm a perfect driver but over 140K miles in the last 4 yrs, 4 countries, zero points, zero insurance claims against me, zero cautions from cops, so can't be all bad.

Bogger77

kbannon wrote:

a provisional licence - not the same as the licence that Bogger77 was referring to. Holding a provisional licence means that you have as yet been unable to show that your driving skills are up to the (poor) level that the Irish Government require!

OT, but it's more the minimum level rather than poor, yes the test leaves loads to wish for, and the system of allowing L drivers on the road without supervision doesn't help matters, as we can see here. But it's still a slighty better system than some of our southern EU neighbours. Not as good as our central EU neighbours, and will never be, unless we have a pan eu testing system.

kenmc

newband wrote:

i reversed towards a parked car, yes, a GARDA car you moron :

Pot. Kettle. Black.!

ambro25

Might just be a question of education - how good is it over here? I mean, I have absolutely not a fe**ing clue how youths (God that made me sound old!) go about passing a license, provisional or full, over here.
I know that back in France, you must undertake at least 30 hours of theory and practice (20/10 respectively) with a registered driving school, which are logged and everything. You then sit your theory (mutliple questions with slides), then your driving (30 mins, mix of town/m'way/A & B roads, 3-point turns, 'proper' parking between 2 cars along pavement, etc.) - then you get a license, according to which you're not allowed to drive past 50 mph (90 kph) for a year or on M'ways.

And then at driving school (to say how that 'marked me' at the time) you're taught that:
1) you watch your stopping distance (+ how to calculate in your head)
2) you watch road surface in winter/summer after rain (to reprise a theme in a different thread on this here Forum)
3) you never brake on a motorway but adjust your speed up and down according to other users (take heed youg'uns, you need skill to do this, and that's what it's all about)
4) etc, etc.
...
end) [if there is any] you never stop learning to drive - it's called experience and people with 3 trips round the world on the clock still crash or bump.

seamus

ambro25 wrote:

Might just be a question of education - how good is it over here? I mean, I have absolutely not a fe**ing clue how youths (God that made me sound old!) go about passing a license, provisional or full, over here.
I know that back in France, you must undertake at least 30 hours of theory and practice (20/10 respectively) with a registered driving school, which are logged and everything. You then sit your theory (mutliple questions with slides), then your driving (30 mins, mix of town/m'way/A & B roads, 3-point turns, 'proper' parking between 2 cars along pavement, etc.) - then you get a license, according to which you're not allowed to drive past 50 mph (90 kph) for a year or on M'ways.

And then at driving school (to say how that 'marked me' at the time) you're taught that:
1) you watch your stopping distance (+ how to calculate in your head)
2) you watch road surface in winter/summer after rain (to reprise a theme in a different thread on this here Forum)
3) you never brake on a motorway but adjust your speed up and down according to other users (take heed youg'uns, you need skill to do this, and that's what it's all about)
4) etc, etc.
...
end) [if there is any] you never stop learning to drive - it's called experience and people with 3 trips round the world on the clock still crash or bump.

Yeah, tis a joke over here. Up until recently, anyone coudl get a provisional, and hop into a car, drive away.

Now we have a theory test, which is pittance, after which a youngster can get a provisional and drive away.

Legally one is not allowed drive unaccompanied on a first provisional licence (which lasts two years), but the chances of getting caught are slim, and the penalties a joke, so the majority do anyway. You can drive unaccompanied on a second provisional, but you don't have to have any experience or have passed any tests to get a second provisional. So technically, a person can drive unaccompanied, without any prior experience. Many people do since until recently, a lot of people applied for a provisional licence to use as ID, without any intention of using it to learn to drive. Then when the time came to drive, they got a second provisional and drove away, no experience, no accompaniment.

The driving test consists of 45 minutes of driving in an urban environment, with most emphasis on knowledge and technique. It doesn't test proper dual carraigeway driving (usually), or motorway driving at all. In it is reversing around a car, demonstrating hand signals, and a turnabout in the road. There is no emergency stop or parallel park. In short, it's a bit of joke too.

There is no requirement to have done lessons, driven a certain amount of miles or driven for any period of time. In theory, a person can apply for a test and a licence, and sit the test and (in theory) pass without any prior experience.

D!ve^Bomb!

Bogger77 wrote:

Simply put, you were not going at a fast enuf speed to safely pass the cars in front without causing an obstruction, a dif of 5 miles/hour is not enough. You are allowed to go over the speed limit by a reasonable amount (normally quoted at 10mph, in spain it's 25kph iirc), pass the cars safely, come back to the driving lane, and slow back to the limit, of course making sure you don't cause people behind you to have to brake..

OMG, get over it.. this isn't spain ffs.. and what's that shíte about not overtaking safely .. you're saying that i wasn't at the safe enough speed to pass cars.. i was driving within the speed limit ffs.. are you suggesting that i should speed.. is that safer or somethin?? i think you really need to cop on to yourself tbh..

I can really see the hipocrisy on this forum now.. i have mentioned multiple times that i have a provisional licence on this forum and that i use the m50 on a daily basis.. and not once until this thread has anyone questioned that :rolleyes:

I think people really need to examine what they have said here.. i don't think people really understand the stupidity level that they hold..

I started to overtake cars, i stayed within the speed limit to do so.. i am not obliged to speed just to make way for people behind me.. When i started to overtake, the outer lane was empty, during the time at which i was overtaking, the astra came up behind me(this proves how fast he was going considering i didn't see him when i started to overtake)..

After a short time, he flashed his lights at me.. i stuck to the speed limit and i kept going, there was not enough space to my left to move into the inner lane.. I AM NOT going to risk my life changing lanes dangerously to make way for someone behind me.. nor am i obliged to!! I stayed within the speed limit.. I AM NOT going to risk my own life to make way for someone behind me, i feel that people should have patience and realise that there is a speed limit and learn to obey it..

I think the majority of people here who disaggree with me here are the same as the person behind me and are willing to flash people just because they are not going as fast as they would like. Well i have news for you people.. YOU ARE THE UNSAFE DRIVERS.. i have never once flashed anyone who was going slower then i would have liked.. i remain patient and and pass them when it is safe to do so. I see flashing someone as a cause of road rage and it is completely ponintless and childish.

Again, i say, if this is the mentality of irish drivers then i am in no way surprised by the amount of deaths on the roads in this country.. and now i know why.

ambro25

seamus wrote:

demonstrating hand signals

what is ?

seamus wrote:

There is no emergency stop

Had to do that one as well, had forgotten about it - quite unnerving, as the way they were doing it then (don't know if they still do) was: the inspector would tell you before setting off that 'at some point of the test' (no further precision), he'd say 'Stop, stop, stop' and you had to do it there and then and be assessed on your reaction time + how you carried it out...

Unfortunately for the guy, I nearly plastered him on the windscreen as the driving school had just had cars serviced and new brakes all-round (you have to pass driving test in the school cars over there) & I was overly keen then: he wasn't prepared for my reaction time, the idiot Thankfully, I didn't lock wheels either. Also, used to do it 3 'contestants' at a time (time-/ economy-conscious buggers!): you're gone for 1 hour 30mins, all 3 rotate throughout the trip. I was lucky, I started first. Poor girl in 3rd was absolutely cacking her pants after waiting 1 hour, hahaha

Newband - lighten up, or you're going to get flashed (again) by an over-zealous poster! ...should make it a point to flash every punto on the M50 now, then - just to make sure one's you

Cactus Col

newband wrote:

OMG, get over it.. this isn't spain ffs.. and what's that shíte about not overtaking safely .. you're saying that i wasn't at the safe enough speed to pass cars.. i was driving within the speed limit ffs.. are you suggesting that i should speed.. is that safer or somethin?? i think you really need to cop on to yourself tbh..

I can really see the hipocrisy on this forum now.. i have mentioned multiple times that i have a provisional licence on this forum and that i use the m50 on a daily basis.. and not once until this thread has anyone questioned that :rolleyes:

I think people really need to examine what they have said here.. i don't think people really understand the stupidity level that they hold..

I started to overtake cars, i stayed within the speed limit to do so.. i am not obliged to speed just to make way for people behind me.. When i started to overtake, the outer lane was empty, during the time at which i was overtaking, the astra came up behind me(this proves how fast he was going considering i didn't see him when i started to overtake)..

After a short time, he flashed his lights at me.. i stuck to the speed limit and i kept going, there was not enough space to my left to move into the inner lane.. I AM NOT going to risk my life changing lanes dangerously to make way for someone behind me.. nor am i obliged to!! I stayed within the speed limit.. I AM NOT going to risk my own life to make way for someone behind me, i feel that people should have patience and realise that there is a speed limit and learn to obey it..

I think the majority of people here who disaggree with me here are the same as the person behind me and are willing to flash people just because they are not going as fast as they would like. Well i have news for you people.. YOU ARE THE UNSAFE DRIVERS.. i have never once flashed anyone who was going slower then i would have liked.. i remain patient and and pass them when it is safe to do so. I see flashing someone as a cause of road rage and it is completely ponintless and childish.

Again, i say, if this is the mentality of irish drivers then i am in no way surprised by the amount of deaths on the roads in this country.. and now i know why.

If you were doing the speed limit you were in the right. In fact, by forcing somebody to slow down from beyond the limit, you may have saved lives.

Drivers who speed make me sick, I only hope that if they crash they only hurt themselves.

(also if someone is on a temp license, they shouldn't be on the motorway, or driving unaccompanied if it's their first)