everyone is in such a rush these days!!

RainyDay

seamus wrote:

The same principles apply, whether it's a motorway or a single lane road. The overtaking lane is not for cruising in, unless the traffic is queued. Simple as that. By not completing the manouver swiftly, you may be holding up the traffic behind you. That's the problem. If your vehicle can't safely go over a certain speed or can't accelerate quickly, that's OK, the motorway allows for that. I understand motorway driving all too well.

Ok, so lets recap for a moment. We've established that there is no specific permission to break the speed limit when overtaking, despite the earlier comments that this was somehow allowed. We've established that there is no risk resulting from overtaking within the speed limit on a motorway, despite the earlier implications that this was somehow risky. The only issue is that you 'may be holding up traffic behind you', or to be more specific, you may be holding up traffic behind you which is breaking the speed limit. Surprising as it may seem, it's not about whether my vehicle can accelerate quickly. We don't all drive with our right foot glued to the floor. Some of us make an effort to stick to the speed limit most of the time.

seamus wrote:

Overtaking slowly is likely to make some moron behind you do something stupid like attempt to undertake you and immediately overtake the guy you're about to overtake. I had some gob****e try that this evening (I won't go into it here).

This is an incredibly facile justification for expecting me to break the speed limit in order to get out of the outside line. Because some other gob might try something dumb! Come on - let's get real here. You could use this justification for never going out on the road at all. It is quite meaningless in this context.

seamus wrote:

Are you a Garda? I'll assume not, which makes other people's speed none of your concern. Your job is not to police other drivers. Other drivers actions are indeed your concern, but trying to prevent them from breaking the law is none of your business, and is dangerous. Any Garda will agree with me on that. "**** him, he's already going fast enough, I'm not getting out of his way", is not your call to make.

I disagree with your first point. Speeding and other forms of poor driving are most definitely my concern, simply because it could well be me or my family that suffer as the end result. How do you decide what forms of law-breaking are 'none of my concern'? Should I step aside and let you mug my granny, or take my DVD player?
I actually agree with your second point - it is not my job to police the roads, and I wouldn't try to do that. As explained earlier, I wouldn't hog the outside lane. However, if I have a good reason to be in the outside lane, I'm certainly not going to be intimidated into pulling over or breaking the speed limit to accomodate some boy racer in a hurry.

Alun wrote:

Now, maybe those clever Traffic Engineers at DLRCOCO have plugged all the figures into some computer model and come up with a suggested speed limit of 60mph, or maybe they've just plucked the figures from a hat, I don't know, but to me the 60mph speed limit there seems unnecessary. Add to that that it starts waaay before the curvy bit just before Ballinteer, where there isn't a bend in sight.

OK then, let's just ignore the judgement of the professionals in this matter. Let's set the speed limits on our motorways based on votes on boards.ie - That's a sure way to bring down the carnage on our roads - right? :rolleyes:

Elfish

It's a simple question of manners on the road.

Manners on the part of the person in front to clear the overtaking lane as soon as they can.

Manners on the part of the person behind not to start flashing until the person in front has a clear space to move into on the left lane.

And I think poor awareness comes into it - you could be behind someone at 60 on the motorway till kingdom come and they still wouldn't see you. Even if you swerve around on the road with your lights on .... when this happens I undertake and don't feel bad about it at all. And its safe enough as far as I'm concerned because I'd undertake almost on the very left of the left lane and be gone before the holder-upper could veer into the left lane.

No replies or apologies given to the whinge brigade either for saying I'd undertake in the above scenario so save yourself the bother !

Alun

RainyDay wrote:

OK then, let's just ignore the judgement of the professionals in this matter. Let's set the speed limits on our motorways based on votes on boards.ie - That's a sure way to bring down the carnage on our roads - right? :rolleyes:

Don't be silly, I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was merely questioning the reasons for that particular speed limit .. that's still allowed isn't it? And nowhere have I actually stated that I break that particular speed limit either.

Anyway, seeing the mess so-called 'professionals' make of some road schemes in this country I think I'm justified in questioning some of their decisions. Take the situation at Kilmacanogue on the N11 where the geniuses have traffic leaving a petrol station using an exit slip road to join the N11! Or the newly revised junctions at Ballinteer where they have an exceedingly short slip road for traffic in the outside lane with no warning at all. it makes you wonder whether any of these people actually drive cars themselves. Come to think of it I personally know a roads engineer in the UK who has never actually held a driving licence.

RainyDay

Here's my suggestion. Go have a chat with the Roads dept over at DLRCoCo before you go castigating their professional skills - Give them a ring today and ask about the speed limits on that stretch. They were very happy to explain the matter to me when I discussed it with them a couple of years ago.

Alun

RainyDay wrote:

Here's my suggestion. Go have a chat with the Roads dept over at DLRCoCo before you go castigating their professional skills - Give them a ring today and ask about the speed limits on that stretch. They were very happy to explain the matter to me when I discussed it with them a couple of years ago.

So, in other words, on a purely subjective basis you thought it was unusual too, otherwise you wouldn't have rung them in the first place, right? That's just what I was doing.

And after spending the best part of half a day recently trying to find someone at DLRCoCo to answer a simple question regarding the Sandyford/Leopardstown interchanges, I don't think I'll bother again. In any case they'd still give me the same answer.

Anyhow, regarding these matters, roads departments do occasionally make mistakes. The same arguments about bend radii and sight lines was used to justify the ridiculous 50mph speed limit through part of the Glen of the Downs N11 section. When challenged by local TD's who were puzzled by the wildly fluctuating speed limits on the newly opened strtech, Wicklow CC went back to the drawing board and discovered they had made a mistake in their calculations. We're still left with a ridiculously small section of 50mph limit for about 300 metres though as you first enter that section although most people ignore it.

ambro25

newband wrote:

well that didn't take long.. i have my driving test on the 17th January:D

'nuff said, methinks

seamus

RainyDay wrote:

Ok, so lets recap for a moment. We've established that there is no specific permission to break the speed limit when overtaking, despite the earlier comments that this was somehow allowed.

To clarify: I never said it was allowed.

We've established that there is no risk resulting from overtaking within the speed limit on a motorway, despite the earlier implications that this was somehow risky.

I never specified motorways. I just said "overtaking".

The only issue is that you 'may be holding up traffic behind you', or to be more specific, you may be holding up traffic behind you which is breaking the speed limit.

Again, their speed is not relevant.

This is an incredibly facile justification for expecting me to break the speed limit in order to get out of the outside line. Because some other gob might try something dumb! Come on - let's get real here. You could use this justification for never going out on the road at all. It is quite meaningless in this context.

In terms of risk, IMO your primary duty is your own safety when you're driving. In my opinion, and in my experience, somebody doing something stupid poses a far greater risk to me, than me doing 5-10mph over the limit on a motorway (not that I can physically go that speed).
I'll happily break the speed limit to finish an overtake if it means getting that boy-racing, aggressive driving moron off my ass.

I disagree with your first point. Speeding and other forms of poor driving are most definitely my concern, simply because it could well be me or my family that suffer as the end result. How do you decide what forms of law-breaking are 'none of my concern'? Should I step aside and let you mug my granny, or take my DVD player?

Different types of "crime". You cannot compare driving offences that *may* result in harm, to assaults against the person. By the same virtue, if you saw someone throw litter on the ground, should you pull them up on it? Yes, because by doing so you're upholding the law, but unlike driving, you're not putting any lives at risk (ignoring the obvious scumbag who'd kill you for it).

Again, to emphasise my above point, your primary concern is your own safety, closely followed by the safety of the vehicle around you (both are related anyway - concern for your own safety will breed safety for others and vice versa). Other people's driving, and other people's action are of course part of these concerns. However, the minutae of other people's driving are irrelevant. That is, your concern is "This guy is coming up fast, I better not pull out in front of him", not "This guy is breaking the speed limit, I'm going to pull out into his path so he must slow down". Or "Holy schnit, this guy is overtaking, and he's right in my way", not "This guy is breaking the law by overtaking on the white line, I should maintain my course to force him back onto his side of the road."

Not that I'm saying you'd think like that but just trying to get my point across.

ambro25

RainyDay wrote:

However, if I have a good reason to be in the outside lane, I'm certainly not going to be intimidated into pulling over or breaking the speed limit to accomodate some boy racer in a hurry.

Unless he'd just robbed a bank, and was flying down the M'way with Gardai on his ass, in which case your own high-horsed ass would get boosted out-o'-way, since he's not going to particularly care about your paintwork or that of his stolen car...

You don't know that, I don't know that, nobody knows every incidental happening 100% of the time, else there'd be no accidents. By account of which, you'd be better advised to get back to the 'normal' lane ASAP in all circumstances, warranting a marginal speed increase beyond the limit or not. In my experience as an overtaker, I always have respect for the driver who's started overtaking in front of me and accelerates to match my pace, instead of obliviously expecting me to slow down/brake - which is why I practice this myself with already-overtaking cars coming up to me... Not only is it courteous, but it also makes for safer 2-lane traffic flow: as I've previously posted, it's a matter of education, civility and skill.

Enough of the sheer bloody-mindedness of *couch*most*cough* Irish drivers :mad: (Based on past recent experience in/around Dublin, I'm sure most would rather die than give up their right-of-way... as clearly attested in this thread).

Borzoi

mike65 wrote:

Okay kids, will you keep the noise down please?!

Less attitude from some of you will keep this thread open longer and will keep some from a weeks ban.

Mike.

Hmmm, only a week Mike? I was thinking of longer........... :eek:

RainyDay

ambro25 wrote:

Unless he'd just robbed a bank, and was flying down the M'way with Gardai on his ass, in which case your own high-horsed ass would get boosted out-o'-way, since he's not going to particularly care about your paintwork or that of his stolen car...

Fairly meanless scenario, isn't it - and just to nitpick slightly, it is just as likely to happen on the inside lane as on the outside lane. Bank robbers are not famed for their lane discipline.

ambro25 wrote:

You don't know that, I don't know that, nobody knows every incidental happening 100% of the time, else there'd be no accidents. By account of which, you'd be better advised to get back to the 'normal' lane ASAP in all circumstances, warranting a marginal speed increase beyond the limit or not. In my experience as an overtaker, I always have respect for the driver who's started overtaking in front of me and accelerates to match my pace, instead of obliviously expecting me to slow down/brake - which is why I practice this myself with already-overtaking cars coming up to me... Not only is it courteous, but it also makes for safer 2-lane traffic flow: as I've previously posted, it's a matter of education, civility and skill.

Interesting justification for breaking the law - lots of nice buzzwords here 'courteous' 'civil' 'skill'. I just love the automatic assumption that any driver that doesn't shift out of the way of the boy racers must have a slow car or be unskilled. Like many assumptions, it is a false assumption.

As said repeatedly before, I don't hog the outside line as a matter of course. But if I have a good reason for being there, I'm not going to manouvre in busy traffic to accomodating the law-breaking of other drivers.

RainyDay

seamus wrote:

To clarify: I never said it was allowed.
I never specified motorways. I just said "overtaking".

Eh, isn't this whole thread about overtaking on motorways, or have I missed something?

seamus wrote:

Again, their speed is not relevant.
In terms of risk, IMO your primary duty is your own safety when you're driving. In my opinion, and in my experience, somebody doing something stupid poses a far greater risk to me, than me doing 5-10mph over the limit on a motorway (not that I can physically go that speed).
I'll happily break the speed limit to finish an overtake if it means getting that boy-racing, aggressive driving moron off my ass.
.

You seem to be shifting the goalposts. The original rationale for moving was to accomodate the guy behind. Now you are suggesting it is a matter of safety to put distance between you & the guy behind. That's a different matter entirely.

seamus wrote:

Again, to emphasise my above point, your primary concern is your own safety, closely followed by the safety of the vehicle around you (both are related anyway - concern for your own safety will breed safety for others and vice versa). Other people's driving, and other people's action are of course part of these concerns. However, the minutae of other people's driving are irrelevant. That is, your concern is "This guy is coming up fast, I better not pull out in front of him", not "This guy is breaking the speed limit, I'm going to pull out into his path so he must slow down". Or "Holy schnit, this guy is overtaking, and he's right in my way", not "This guy is breaking the law by overtaking on the white line, I should maintain my course to force him back onto his side of the road."

You are missing the bigger picture. By pulling over, you are also sending the signal that speeding is OK, speeding is good, speeding is cool. Until we as a society start sending out different signals, the speeding will continue & the carnage will continue.

seamus

RainyDay wrote:

You seem to be shifting the goalposts. The original rationale for moving was to accomodate the guy behind. Now you are suggesting it is a matter of safety to put distance between you & the guy behind. That's a different matter entirely.

Accomodating the guy behind *is* the safety concern.

You are missing the bigger picture. By pulling over, you are also sending the signal that speeding is OK, speeding is good, speeding is cool. Until we as a society start sending out different signals, the speeding will continue & the carnage will continue.

It's not your place to attempt to educate other drivers in this manner.

RainyDay

seamus wrote:

It's not your place to attempt to educate other drivers in this manner.

I presume you are stating this as a matter of opinion, not fact. It is a valid opinion (which which I disagree). It is not a matter of fact.

ambro25

RainyDay wrote:

Fairly meanless scenario, isn't it - and just to nitpick slightly, it is just as likely to happen on the inside lane as on the outside lane. Bank robbers are not famed for their lane discipline.

It is -in the context of the thread and previous posts- just that: a scenario, as valid as any other previously tabled herein. But it typifies, perhaps in an exaggerated fashion (but which was so because intended to drive the point home), what the 'against Newband's whingeing' camp of sorts has been posting all along: that drivers who do not use the overtaking lane appropriately and/or conduct themselves therein with consideration to others are potentially dangerous, as they choose to ignore what their mirrors tells them, on the basis of high-horse'd grounds that -just on this once occasion, whichever it may be- could prove fatal to them/others.

In this respect, your above response suggests the same: you ain't gonna shift, whether the guy behind is a moronic pleb who just 'has' to overtake everyone and drive at 80mph just to feel 'special', a doctor on call who hasn't got a blue light or a sign handy when the emergency happen, or a bank robber who could indeed just use the slow lane or the reservation but doesn't, or... because you're 'right' and he's 'wrong'.

RainyDay wrote:

Interesting justification for breaking the law - lots of nice buzzwords here 'courteous' 'civil' 'skill'. I just love the automatic assumption that any driver that doesn't shift out of the way of the boy racers must have a slow car or be unskilled. Like many assumptions, it is a false assumption.

As said repeatedly before, I don't hog the outside line as a matter of course. But if I have a good reason for being there, I'm not going to manouvre in busy traffic to accomodating the law-breaking of other drivers.

I don't use buzzwords, I use plain simple words which I deem suitable to express my opinion (which shouldn't be assessed on my vocabulary, since English isn't my native language, but what should you care :rolleyes: ). The only assumption I've made, is that you're not considerate - nothing in respect of boy racers (whom I despise just as much as you do, perhaps more so as I drive cars prone to attract their 'attention' whenever, which is particularly annoying), slow cars (isn't any such thing sub-70 mph, aside from JCBs & farming machinery).

With respect to lacking skills, though I didn't make the assumption explicitly either, I'll stand by it - to quote my wife yesterday, who is not a boy racer by any stretch of the imagination: "My God they can't drive to save their lives here!". But then she' s English, so she would comment this way of Irish people, bless her . I'm a bit more open-minded (I'm not English) and enclined to give the benefit of the doubt - to a point.

So, skillswise - having regard to the tests carried out pre-releasing drivers on open roads here, as far as I understand the process - you'll forgive (or not, I don't particularly care) the assumption.

All I was saying (before you conveniently twisted it to your own ends) was that if I'm coming up behind you on the M50 at 70 and you've only just started overtaking at 60 someone driving at 50, of course I'll slow down but it would be nice of you to accelerate to 70 so that I don't lose (too much) momentum. Which I'm sure you'd appreciate if you were the person driving at 70 and me overtaking... So much for 'buzzwords'.

RainyDay

ambro25 wrote:

In this respect, your above response suggests the same: you ain't gonna shift, whether the guy behind is a moronic pleb who just 'has' to overtake everyone and drive at 80mph just to feel 'special', a doctor on call who hasn't got a blue light or a sign handy when the emergency happen, or a bank robber who could indeed just use the slow lane or the reservation but doesn't, or... because you're 'right' and he's 'wrong'.

While I'm on a nit-picking roll, I'll point out that doctors don't drive to emergency incidents in their own cars. In the rare circumstance when the doctor actually leaves the A&E dept, he is going to be in an ambulance or other emergency response vehicle, appropriately equipped & marked.

And as I seem to need to point out in every post, I don't hog the outside lane.

ambro25 wrote:

All I was saying (before you conveniently twisted it to your own ends) was that if I'm coming up behind you on the M50 at 70 and you've only just started overtaking at 60 someone driving at 50, of course I'll slow down but it would be nice of you to accelerate to 70 so that I don't lose (too much) momentum. Which I'm sure you'd appreciate if you were the person driving at 70 and me overtaking... So much for 'buzzwords'.

Assuming that you are still talking about the stretch of the M50 with the 60 mph speed limit, I fail to see why your 'momentum' should be given priority over the legal speed limit. What's so special about your momentum? Is the 5 seconds or so that you might lose really that important? Is it really that difficult to push your right foot down to pick up that momentum? Why should I be expected to break the law to accomodate your 'momentum'?

ambro25

RainyDay wrote:

While I'm on a nit-picking roll, I'll point out that doctors don't drive to emergency incidents in their own cars.In the rare circumstance when the doctor actually leaves the A&E dept, he is going to be in an ambulance or other emergency response vehicle, appropriately equipped & marked.

More's the pity. Good job emergencies always happen at the A&E or sufferers can wait for the doctor to make his/her way to the ambulance & do a full check-list before departure... "Vehicle appropriately marked? Check!"...and that all doctors are on call at the A&E as well. Won't hear me complain about state of NHS in this country, that's for sure.

RainyDay wrote:

And as I seem to need to point out in every post, I don't hog the outside lane.

Not said you did, have I?

RainyDay wrote:

Assuming that you are still talking about the stretch of the M50 with the 60 mph speed limit,

Wrong assumption, m8tey. Taliking about normal rin-o-the-mill 70 mph M50.

RainyDay wrote:

I fail to see why your 'momentum' should be given priority over the legal speed limit.

Not said it was over either - I said I'm driving at 70. But then irrelevant as wrong assumption hereinbefore.

RainyDay wrote:

What's so special about your momentum? Is the 5 seconds or so that you might lose really that important? Is it really that difficult to push your right foot down to pick up that momentum? Why should I be expected to break the law to accomodate your 'momentum'?

Nothing at all's special about my momentum, it would just be c-o-n-s-i-d-e-r-a-t-e of you, is all (e.g. polite, friendly, civil, etc.), i.e. not being a YAK (Yet Another Kn*b).

Fr Dougal

newband wrote:

So i'm in the 'fast' lane pretty much dead on 60mph.. There is an astra behind me, the astra is behind me for a couple of minutes and then decides to flash me...

Simple maths. 60mph for 2 minutes is two miles. Seems a long time to be in the overtaking lane

Drive in left lane. Overtake in right lane. Never mind that anyone else is breaking the law.

However, if you see someone driving "dangerously" (as opposed to just going over the speed limit) you can always notify Gardai Trafficwatch on 1890205805 when you've stopped.

mackerski

RainyDay wrote:

You are missing the bigger picture. By pulling over, you are also sending the signal that speeding is OK, speeding is good, speeding is cool. Until we as a society start sending out different signals, the speeding will continue & the carnage will continue.

No, by pulling over you send the signal that driving in the left lane is good, lingering in the overtaking lane is bad. It also keeps you compliant with the laws you think so highly of. Or is your high regard confined to that one particular road-traffic law?

Dermot

D!ve^Bomb!

Fr Dougal wrote:

Simple maths. 60mph for 2 minutes is two miles. Seems a long time to be in the overtaking lane

Drive in left lane. Overtake in right lane. Never mind that anyone else is breaking the law.

However, if you see someone driving "dangerously" (as opposed to just going over the speed limit) you can always notify Gardai Trafficwatch on 1890205805 when you've stopped.

you obviously only read the first post then skipped the rest

RainyDay

We could go way off topic here - believe me, the last thing you want at the scene of most accidents is a doctor. You want a paramedic or EMT who is specifically trained for that scenario. But the idea of the doctors rushing around town in the own cars to get to emergencies is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

The original scenario which newband described was where he was driving at the speed limit and the guy behind expected him to pull over. All my feedback was in relation to this scenario. Given that you have now moved the goaposts to talk about a 70 mph speed limit area, let me clarify my position. I'd have no problem with increasing speed up to the speed limit to be considerate to the guy behind. I would have a problem with increasing speed over the speed limit to accomodate his momentum.

Fr D - When was the last time the volume of traffic on the M50 at 5 pm allowed you to use the right hand lane solely for overtaking? Maybe last Christmas Day, I'd imagine.

ambro25

RainyDay wrote:

:rolleyes: . Nit-picking suits you, it's a mark of great intellect.

dahamsta

RainyDay wrote:

I presume you are stating this as a matter of opinion, not fact. It is a valid opinion (which which I disagree). It is not a matter of fact.

Unless you're a Garda it's absolutely none of your business what other drivers do. If you have a problem with them, call the Gardaí. Or rant about it somewhere. Somewhere else.

adam

D!ve^Bomb!

dahamsta wrote:

Unless you're a Garda it's absolutely none of your business what other drivers do. If you have a problem with them, call the Gardaí. Or rant about it somewhere. Somewhere else.

adam

it works both ways.. if you have a problem with someone holding you up.. call the garda.. i'm sure they'll care.. and when they say ''how fast is the driver in front going?'', you say ''60'', they'll say ''well thats the limit, what do you want from us, a fúcking escort??!!''

Bogger77

newband wrote:

it works both ways.. if you have a problem with someone holding you up.. call the garda.. i'm sure they'll care.. and when they say ''how fast is the driver in front going?'', you say ''60'', they'll say ''well thats the limit, what do you want from us, a fúcking escort??!!''

Knowing how little respect you pay to the rules of the road and of the land, you'll probably pick up your mobile and dial away. :rolleyes:

mike65

I'm going to say a phase which could keep you alive then close this thread as its clearly played out and become a "you quote me/I quote you" feature.

Defensive Driving.

Look it up

Mike.