Red vs Blue: Tis gonna be a biggie (possible scores)

eyerer

last i heard (quite a while ago) everyone loved josemi
i guess hes ****ed up pretty bad, people had been saying to sell finnan previously

jesus_thats_gre

mind you, fair played to em if they do manage to stay up there..

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The thing is, they dont have it to spend on transfers...

The club is still in 42 million debt.. They can get up to 28 million for Rooney and are getting a cash injection of 15 million soon also. They have committed 10 million of that to transfer over Christmas it seems...

Now look at it this way.. If I told you Liverpool had 10 million to spend over Christmas and I was saying that this would make a massive difference, would you agree or would you laugh me off...

If Everton get 1 serious injury to Stubbs, Weir, Gravesen, Kilbane or Bent, they are in major trouble as they do not have anyone to replace them. If they get 2 or 3 injuries, like Liverpool have had all season, they would crumble...

The thing is.. they do have that money to spend on transfers....

Lets get this straight. Listen up:

The debt is secured in a long term LOAN which is payable to the bank over a long period of time. It is secured against current and future season ticket sales.

The dont have to pay it back in one big chuck... its setup like a mortgage. The money from Rooney and the investment from the fotress syndicate is money that CAN be spent on rebuilding the squad.

Yobo is also available at the back. He's just back after a minor injury. They need to buy another centre back. This should be done in january.

They need to buy perhaps another centre midfielder and a striker.

One thing everton have is plenty of midfielders. Up front there is always the option of ferguson or mc fadden or chadwick. So we aint gonna be that screwed.

We have players there and money to SPEND in january....

jesus_thats_gre

of course you do..

Third_Echelon

yes we do... i just told you that we did.

jesus_thats_gre

How much will you have to spend so? From what you are saying above, they should have the 15 million from the cash injection and the first installment in the Rooney transfer. So a total of 25 million then?


Finally, how much is this long term loan for? What is the term of the loan? Is the club currently been run at a profit? Does that debt need to be reduced in order to reduce the annual payments that service the debt, thus creating less of a strain on the clubs finances?

Could you provide links regarding the amount of funds available because I have not seen anything that suggests the club has more than 10million to spend on transfers.

mr_angry

In fairness, all the money in the world isn't gonna make a difference if the performance of the two teams on the pitch doesn't change. People said Arsenal would slip up and would never go unbeaten last year, but the injuries people predicted never came about, and they did it. Who is to say Everton wont manage to continue their form this season? And who's to say they wont unearth another young talent to fill any gaps that do appear?

jesus_thats_gre

Ok angry, what exactly is your point? If thats your stance, who's to say that Arsenal won't finish 4th or 5th?

We are having an argument about the prospects of Everton for the remainder of the season. I am saying they will fall away and have presented my reasons. He has the opposite opinion and has also stated why. Do you suggest we just don't talk about football anymore?

Finally, do you actually believe that having money to spend won't make any difference to a football club?

Who is to say that they won't suffer 10 first team injuries and get relegated?

smemon

interesting to see liverpool fans believing they can finish above everton - currently a gap of 11 points. manu are 9 points behind chelsea. yet manu aren't even guaranteed a top 4 finish according to some.

and to think us manu fans get slammed for thinking we can finish above chelsea.

mr_angry

For once I agree with Smemon. :eek: My point is that form is sometimes more important than money. I'm not saying that you should stop talking about football, I'm saying that you're arguing a less significant point. Everton's players are all playing at the top of their game, and are working very hard for each other. Liverpool's aren't. Money alone wont buy you that kind of spirit, and to be honest, I think thats a more important factor than the skill-level of the players involved. (To a degree, that is. I'm not saying a Northampton team with a good work ethic would beat AC Milan, but one top Premiership side against another, I think its valid.)

Fair enough, you can come out with the old clichè that form is temporary, but class is permanent. I think that more applies to individual players than entire teams though. I don't think injuries will affect Everton's team spirit as much as you're saying. I mean, we won a league title in '98 with Christopher Wreh up front half the time for God's sake! Was he a top-quality striker? F*ck no! But the team spirit we had going at the time meant that even he knocked in his fair share of goals when Anelka was injured, and we maintained our run.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

How much will you have to spend so? From what you are saying above, they should have the 15 million from the cash injection and the first installment in the Rooney transfer. So a total of 25 million then?

Rumours are suggesting somewhere between 10 -> 15 million in january.
Rooneys next installment will be through next summer for more signings.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Finally, how much is this long term loan for? What is the term of the loan? Is the club currently been run at a profit? Does that debt need to be reduced in order to reduce the annual payments that service the debt, thus creating less of a strain on the clubs finances?

They have to pay 2 million per year off this loan. so you do the maths.

Admitingly if they pay off some of the loan with the investment money they will reduce the loan and in turn interest payments. Im sure that some money will be put into this.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Could you provide links regarding the amount of funds available because I have not seen anything that suggests the club has more than 10million to spend on transfers.

Did i say otherwise??

http://www.toffeeweb.com is an independent site. Its on there somewhere.

Third_Echelon

mr_angry wrote:

In fairness, all the money in the world isn't gonna make a difference if the performance of the two teams on the pitch doesn't change. People said Arsenal would slip up and would never go unbeaten last year, but the injuries people predicted never came about, and they did it. Who is to say Everton wont manage to continue their form this season? And who's to say they wont unearth another young talent to fill any gaps that do appear?

well said angry...

Everton are playing as a team... you just had to look at their goal celebration.. 7 players in a pile-up? I've never seen liverpool doing that recently?

The players are playing for each other, the badge and moyes. There is a lot to be said for communication and understanding of each other. If players cannot communicate with each other, what's the point?

At Liverpool, team-spirit looks low. They players are playing football, but their tactics and understanding of each other looks poor. Perhaps this is the managers fault. It more than likely is. Last night's result against pompey shows this up again...

The great liverpool should be putting teams like pompey away by half-time. That would be the expectation of any liverpool fan. Pompey were up for it and left anfield with a point and fair play to them. They didnt give up and got their reward in the last few seconds. A pompey win would have leap-frogged them over liverpool.

It seems to me that liverpool are a team in crisis.

jesus_thats_gre

I am confident that Liverpool will finish ahead of Everton purely on the basis that I think Liverpool's form will improve while Everton do not have sufficient quality throughout their squad to maintain their current form until the end of the season.

Contributing factors to them not maintaining their current form will be one of more of the following: 1) sustaining injuries in one or more key positions, 2) not having sufficient funds to provide quality first team cover, 3) general tiredness (they just cant work that hard for a whole season without suffering) and 4) not having much money to play around with in Januarty.

Everton have done well to come so far but like many teams before them, they will likely drop off. Then again, they might not but I think they will.. If they do not, there is no doubting that will have earned their place.

Comparing the fortunes of Liverpool and Everton to those of Chelsea and United is also pointless. Chelsea have at least 2 quailty players for EVERY position and will not be affected by fatique towards the end of the season like I suggest Everton will.. With the quality Chelsea have throughtout the whole squad compared to United, it is bordering on impossible for United to catch and surpass Chelsea. It's not so much that United do not have the ability, they just do not have the depth in their squad that Chelsea does. In fact, no club comes near Chelsea in that department..

Chelsea will be able to compete on 3 or 4 fronts this season and still not suffer from tiredness like Arsenal, United and other teams will. United, Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool will not have the same advantage.

Final theory about Everton. The systems that Moyes currently plays is incredibly defensive and while being effective, I do not think he will carry on with this tactic if he buys over the transfer window. The existing tactics are, I feel, somewhat forced on him by the current crop of players they have. If they happen to buy an out and out striker in the new year, he will probably be played along side or slight ahead of Bent. This simple change will upset the current balance in the team as someone will have to be removed from another position (likely defensive) and they will concede more goals.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Everton are playing as a team... you just had to look at their goal celebration.. 7 players in a pile-up? I've never seen liverpool doing that recently?

The players are playing for each other, the badge and moyes. There is a lot to be said for communication and understanding of each other. If players cannot communicate with each other, what's the point?

At Liverpool, team-spirit looks low. They players are playing football, but their tactics and understanding of each other looks poor. Perhaps this is the managers fault. It more than likely is. Last night's result against pompey shows this up again...

The great liverpool should be putting teams like pompey away by half-time. That would be the expectation of any liverpool fan. Pompey were up for it and left anfield with a point and fair play to them. They didnt give up and got their reward in the last few seconds. A pompey win would have leap-frogged them over liverpool.

It seems to me that liverpool are a team in crisis.

The manager has publicly come out and stated that the players are not doing what he wants. This is due to the language barrier that currently exists but you will notice (if you actually watched them playing) that their performances on the pitch have improved dramtically. This unfortunately has not been done with consistency as of yet but the improvements made so far suggest that this will happen sooner rather than later.

mr_angry

To be honest, I don't think its the size of their squad that is Chelsea's best quality, but the spirit that clearly exists within the camp. If you look at it, Mourinho isn't really rotating the squad that much. Look at the players who are playing almost every game - Cech, Paulo Fereirra, Carvalho, Terry, Gallas, Duff, Lampard, Makelele, Robben, Gudjohnsen... there's almost a whole team there that isn't being rotated. Why? Because they're playing so well, they don't need to be. And I fully expect Mourinho to be playing the same players come March. Chelsea had a massive squad last season, but they didn't win anything.

mike65

Just to put the Everton succes in perpective, I recall Aston Villa were top of the Prem in December in 1999/2000 season and finnished 6th/7th-ish ...or I am wrong?

Mike.

jesus_thats_gre

mr_angry wrote:

To be honest, I don't think its the size of their squad that is Chelsea's best quality, but the spirit that clearly exists within the camp. If you look at it, Mourinho isn't really rotating the squad that much. Look at the players who are playing almost every game - Cech, Paulo Fereirra, Carvalho, Terry, Gallas, Duff, Lampard, Makelele, Robben, Gudjohnsen... there's almost a whole team there that isn't being rotated. Why? Because they're playing so well, they don't need to be. And I fully expect Mourinho to be playing the same players come March. Chelsea had a massive squad last season, but they didn't win anything.

Of course it is not solely down to the size of the squad. There are a number of contributing factors that make Chelsea successful but the size and quality of the their squad will definetly be a massive benefit come the run in at the end of the season, especially if they are competing in one than one competition.

Just like squad size, quality or tactics are not the only factors, morale and togetherness are also not suffcient on their own.

To save alot of bull**** talk and simple reasoning I will blurt it out, all Everton have at the moment is morale and togetherness. There is at most 1 or 2 players that would get a consistent game for Arsenal or United in the whole squad. Togetherness and morale can only make 14 players play at that level for so long, sooner or later those 14 players are going to become crocked.

Back to my squad size argument, Chelsea can cope with 4 or 5 player becoming injured/tired/lazy and still field a team that is vastly superior than the majority of teams in the premieship. Thus, the above argument that money, squad size and quality is not a major factor is just plain WRONG.

mr_angry

You're talking about Everton as if they're a conference side. They have a hell of a lot more than just morale and togetherness. If you think that, you're frankly wrong. And I think a spirit of morale and togetherness goes further than you think. The perfect example should be Ireland's international team. Some of our players were / are playing Championship football (English Division 1), and yet we've managed to beat some great great teams, do well in major championships, and hold our own against France recently. By all rights, we should eventually f*ck up really badly, but we keep pumping out the good results.

And half our team play for Everton, or worse!

The Insider

The type of football Everton are playing is football that Liverpool used to play under GH, 10 men behind the ball when you don't have it, break up the play, scrap for every ball... work hard on getting goals from set plays, play the long ball up forward, never commit to many men to attack extra extra..it works for a while but with that system you do get found out as Liverpool where under GH... granted we got some success but the quality of players playing that game for Liverpool where much higher plus we always had Owen to get a goal out of nothing.

I mean fair dues to Everton (I actually mean that even though I am a Liverpool supporter ) as it is great to see anyone apart from Chelsea/Aresnal/Scum up there but they can't keep it up playing the football that they are playing simple as that. Making comparsions with Aresnal last season is wrong as Aresnal were playing some of the greatest football seen in the past 10 years... Everton are not.

jesus_thats_gre

mr_angry wrote:

You're talking about Everton as if they're a conference side. They have a hell of a lot more than just morale and togetherness. If you think that, you're frankly wrong. And I think a spirit of morale and togetherness goes further than you think. The perfect example should be Ireland's international team. Some of our players were / are playing Championship football (English Division 1), and yet we've managed to beat some great great teams, do well in major championships, and hold our own against France recently. By all rights, we should eventually f*ck up really badly, but we keep pumping out the good results.

And half our team play for Everton, or worse!

I am talking about Everton as if they are a poor premiership team that just escaped relegation last season and have a total of 3 additions in the team since then and have also lost 2 strikers..

The point I made was grossly exadurated but you are given them far far too much credit!!

Do you think they are as good, if not better, than Arsenal?

I am not going to get into an argument about Ireland as international football is a different argument altogther.

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

interesting to see liverpool fans believing they can finish above everton - currently a gap of 11 points. manu are 9 points behind chelsea.

That is a stupid comparison. Everton are not Chelsea.

smemon wrote:

yet manu aren't even guaranteed a top 4 finish according to some.

Who said that? I doubt anyone here did.

smemon wrote:

and to think us manu fans get slammed for thinking we can finish above chelsea.

I wouldnt say "slammed" but as mentioned above the two scenarios are totally different.

As regards Everton. I think its great to see them up there, as I dont hold any grudge against them. They are a decent hardworking side, with a few decent players, a few good youngsters, and a manager that I rate highly. But I really dont think they have it in them to keep up the pace. Top 6 would be good, and very satisfactory to almost every fan had they been offered that at the beginning of the season. I think they would be doing very well to get top 6 given who else is up there, Middlesboro look very good, Villa, Bolton, even Newcastle, and then obviously Liverpool.

Coming down to the Liverpool vs Everton thing, I really think Liverpool will finish ahead of them. Despite everyone labelling Liverpools performances as "crap" this year they are not that far off the pace. They will improve dramatically in the second half of the season. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. There main problem has been killing teams off. They have been playing brilliantly at times during games. Its only going to take more time before they get everything to click.

mr_angry

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Do you think they are as good, if not better, than Arsenal?

Are they as attractive a team as Arsenal? No. As far as the Premier League is concerned, are they more effective than Arsenal? Yes. The league doesn't lie. They may not have an Henry to knock in goals for fun, or a Vieira to single-handedly dominate midfield, but they have got defensive solidity and good midfield organisation. And to be honest, when you've got defensive solidity, you don't need an Henry up front. And this solidity isn't dependent on one player - its an emergent property of a team ethic.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I am not going to get into an argument about Ireland as international football is a different argument altogther.

I think thats a bit of a cop-out myself. On the basis of this argument, I fail to see any difference between Premier League and International football (especially since we're talking about the same players in some cases), and I think you're ignoring the point because you can't think of a valid counter-argument. For now, I'm going to assume I'm correct and you're floundering, unless you can produce a valid reason why it isn't a fair comparison.

Jivin Turkey

mr_angry wrote:

Are they as attractive a team as Arsenal? No. As far as the Premier League is concerned, are they more effective than Arsenal? Yes. The league doesn't lie. They may not have an Henry to knock in goals for fun, or a Vieira to single-handedly dominate midfield, but they have got defensive solidity and good midfield organisation. And to be honest, when you've got defensive solidity, you don't need an Henry up front. And this solidity isn't dependent on one player - its an emergent property of a team ethic.

I think thats a bit of a cop-out myself. On the basis of this argument, I fail to see any difference between Premier League and International football (especially since we're talking about the same players in some cases), and I think you're ignoring the point because you can't think of a valid counter-argument. For now, I'm going to assume I'm correct and you're floundering, unless you can produce a valid reason why it isn't a fair comparison.

I can think of a valid counter argument. Ireland are a similar team in style and make up to Everton. Only 1 Championship player would possibly be in the first team however. Yes on their day, they can beat the worlds best. But when it comes to the crunch, they are no where to be seen. Similar to Everton, they are a good side, of course they can beat anyone on their day, and are capable of putting a few results together, but at the end of the day they wont be where they are today.

As regargds the league not lying. It doesnt, but to some extent its only a fair reflection in comparing teams at the end when everyone has played everyone home and away. Im sure we can revisit this thread then.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I am confident that Liverpool will finish ahead of Everton purely on the basis that I think Liverpool's form will improve while Everton do not have sufficient quality throughout their squad to maintain their current form until the end of the season.

why not? we are half way there now... who's to say that we cannot do it for another half of a season?

If liverpool are going to improve they'd want to start doing it soon or the season will be over pretty quickly for them... once the christmas period is over theres not too much of the season left.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Contributing factors to them not maintaining their current form will be one of more of the following: 1) sustaining injuries in one or more key positions, 2) not having sufficient funds to provide quality first team cover, 3) general tiredness (they just cant work that hard for a whole season without suffering) and 4) not having much money to play around with in Januarty.

1) injuries happen, players are missing for periods of time. we have coped before and we will cope again. i think you are underestimating a lot of professional footballers with this claim
2) they'll have at least 10 million to spend in january. that'll get them a couple of players for cover until the end of the season
3) they have had fitness coaches working with the squad since the end of last season, mainly since the start of pre-season. Their fitness is up and it is showing. Players have been rested so far this season and it has been ok.
4) see point 2

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Everton have done well to come so far but like many teams before them, they will likely drop off. Then again, they might not but I think they will.. If they do not, there is no doubting that will have earned their place.

What has everton's form got to do with past teams? absolutely nothing.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Final theory about Everton. The systems that Moyes currently plays is incredibly defensive and while being effective, I do not think he will carry on with this tactic if he buys over the transfer window.

He's got his priorities straight. Dont concede goals. Nothing wrong with that. Why would he change a working system? surely you dont think he is that naive?

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The existing tactics are, I feel, somewhat forced on him by the current crop of players they have. If they happen to buy an out and out striker in the new year, he will probably be played along side or slight ahead of Bent. This simple change will upset the current balance in the team as someone will have to be removed from another position (likely defensive) and they will concede more goals.

The tactics were not forced on him... Seriously this guy is a professional football manager.. he knows a thing or two. He knows his players..
He has found a system that works for his players and the style of play he wants.
Seriously dude you are over-simplifying things a lot here.. give the man some credit... its not a computer game here...

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

To save alot of bull**** talk and simple reasoning I will blurt it out, all Everton have at the moment is morale and togetherness. There is at most 1 or 2 players that would get a consistent game for Arsenal or United in the whole squad. Togetherness and morale can only make 14 players play at that level for so long, sooner or later those 14 players are going to become crocked.

So all you think that everton has is morale and togetherness??? Get a grip will you for god sake :rolleyes:

Perhaps they are good players? Perhaps they are a good team? Perhaps they have a good manager? Perhaps they have good tactics?

Im sure west brom have morale and togetherness. Why are they not second in the league at the moment?

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I am talking about Everton as if they are a poor premiership team that just escaped relegation last season and have a total of 3 additions in the team since then and have also lost 2 strikers..

what about the season before? We had a good season then finishing 7th. Poor premiership teams dont finish 7th!

OK we had a bad season last time around. Most teams go through bad patches and have bad seasons. There were a few things happening in the background that were not good for the club. The rooney thing for example. He was just getting too big of an ego for his own good. This had a bad effect on the team no doubtingly...

We had a good clear out of the players that didnt want to play for everton. Dead wood was cleared. Radzinski had overstayed his welcome. He wanted to go and he was sold. If a players doesn't want to play for the team get rid of him. He started mouthing at the end before he was sold. Teams dont need that type of sh1t going on..

we had 3 additions.. so what? whats your point? this only proves that we have good players in the first place and that other factors were affecting the teams performance. We have the right players at the moment...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The point I made was grossly exadurated but you are given them far far too much credit!!

Do you think they are as good, if not better, than Arsenal?

I am not going to get into an argument about Ireland as international football is a different argument altogther.

Come on for god sake. giving them too much credit.. get over yourself will you???
The point about the irish team is very valid in this case

Third_Echelon

mr_angry wrote:

Are they as attractive a team as Arsenal? No. As far as the Premier League is concerned, are they more effective than Arsenal? Yes. The league doesn't lie. They may not have an Henry to knock in goals for fun, or a Vieira to single-handedly dominate midfield, but they have got defensive solidity and good midfield organisation. And to be honest, when you've got defensive solidity, you don't need an Henry up front. And this solidity isn't dependent on one player - its an emergent property of a team ethic.

How does that phrase go... you know the one with the nail and the head

Thanx 4 The Fish

The most iportant question and one that is more pertinent than all those asked by mr_angry is are they champions, as Arsenal are and the answer to that is No. It will take more than what Everton are putting in at the moment to keep them in the Champions League spots. Currently there are (think it's) 11 players playing for their contracts, once 5 or 6 of those become settled in their contracts again they will return to their usual Lacklustre selves.

jesus_thats_gre

mr_angry wrote:

I think thats a bit of a cop-out myself. On the basis of this argument, I fail to see any difference between Premier League and International football (especially since we're talking about the same players in some cases), and I think you're ignoring the point because you can't think of a valid counter-argument. For now, I'm going to assume I'm correct and you're floundering, unless you can produce a valid reason why it isn't a fair comparison.

So let me get this straight, you are actually arguing that you can compare international football and league football? For a start the competition structure is totally different, i.e. the PL teams play 38 games over 9 months with pretty much a set team while Intrnation teams play about 10 games over 20 months with changes all over the shop. Then there is the fact that league players actually train and play with each other on a daily basis.

For arguments sake, I will try to draw a likeness between the two. They can both beat any team when at their best but when it comes to the crunch, they do not produce the goods.

jesus_thats_gre

Its getting a bit difficult to actually reply to this many arguments but I will try my best

Third_Echelon wrote:

why not? we are half way there now... who's to say that we cannot do it for another half of a season?

If liverpool are going to improve they'd want to start doing it soon or the season will be over pretty quickly for them... once the christmas period is over theres not too much of the season left.

You are right, they must improve and pretty soon too. I am speculating that they will.

Third_Echelon wrote:

1) injuries happen, players are missing for periods of time. we have coped before and we will cope again. i think you are underestimating a lot of professional footballers with this claim
2) they'll have at least 10 million to spend in january. that'll get them a couple of players for cover until the end of the season
3) they have had fitness coaches working with the squad since the end of last season, mainly since the start of pre-season. Their fitness is up and it is showing. Players have been rested so far this season and it has been ok.
4) see point 2

Odds are in favour of at least 1 key player getting injured. If this happens to an important player such as Gravesen, there is not sufficient cover for him. Finally, as Liverpool have proved, 10 million buys **** all and offers no assurances of success. With the million, I am off the opinion that he will buy a striker and possibly 1 or 2 other players.

Third_Echelon wrote:

What has everton's form got to do with past teams? absolutely nothing.

It has everything to do with it when 12/13 player out of 16 are the exact same as the team that finished 1 place above relegation last season.

Third_Echelon wrote:

He's got his priorities straight. Dont concede goals. Nothing wrong with that. Why would he change a working system? surely you dont think he is that naive?

I am not saying he should change it. I did not suggest he was naive, nor criticise Moyes in any way. Someone else mentioned that GH adopted the same tactics for Liverpool and as you well know, I put up many an argument defending it when YOU criticised it. I think "boring" was the word you choose.

Third_Echelon wrote:

The tactics were not forced on him... Seriously this guy is a professional football manager.. he knows a thing or two. He knows his players..
He has found a system that works for his players and the style of play he wants.
Seriously dude you are over-simplifying things a lot here.. give the man some credit... its not a computer game here...

Yes the tactics are somewhat being forced on him by the limited pool of players he has to choose from.. He is playing to the current teams strenghts but I do not think this is the way he would really want to play..


To clarify, the squad does not have sufficient quality or dept to maintain their current form. Their tactics require 100% from every player on the park and the limited squad will be exausted before the season ends.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Odds are in favour of at least 1 key player getting injured. If this happens to an important player such as Gravesen, there is not sufficient cover for him. Finally, as Liverpool have proved, 10 million buys **** all and offers no assurances of success. With the million, I am off the opinion that he will buy a striker and possibly 1 or 2 other players.

Perhaps liverpool have made bad purchases? Doens't say moyes will....

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

It has everything to do with it when 12/13 player out of 16 are the exact same as the team that finished 1 place above relegation last season.

You were saying though that the same situation i.e. being top of the league has happened to other clubs like villa, sheffield wednesday etc and they have dropped off... my point was that these other clubs fortunes in past seasons have zero affect on everton's form today. just because the other teams dropped away does not mean everton will..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I am not saying he should change it. I did not suggest he was naive, nor criticise Moyes in any way. Someone else mentioned that GH adopted the same tactics for Liverpool and as you well know, I put up many an argument defending it when YOU criticised it. I think "boring" was the word you choose.

I dont remember GH playing one up front in a 4-1-4-1 formation?
Different tactics. liverpool under GH were not good to watch.
Watching everton play against liverpool you cannot say that they played a boring game. it was a fast passing game.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Yes the tactics are somewhat being forced on him by the limited pool of players he has to choose from.. He is playing to the current teams strenghts but I do not think this is the way he would really want to play..

He played 4-4-2 last season with virtually the same first 12/13 as you have stated above.... He didn't seem to play it then. Perhaps he has found a system that works??
Are you inside his head? Do you know what he really wants to play? Im sure he wants to win... which he is doing

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

To clarify, the squad does not have sufficient quality or dept to maintain their current form. Their tactics require 100% from every player on the park and the limited squad will be exausted before the season ends.

Shouldn't every teams tactics require 100% from every player?

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

So all you think that everton has is morale and togetherness??? Get a grip will you for god sake :rolleyes:

Perhaps they are good players? Perhaps they are a good team? Perhaps they have a good manager? Perhaps they have good tactics?

Im sure west brom have morale and togetherness. Why are they not second in the league at the moment?

Perhaps but they are not good players. A good team they are, however this will change. They also have good tactics but this is dependent on the team morale and fitness being maintained and I do not believe it will be maintained.

How about this argument. West Brom are quite poor this season and will , or very nearly, get relegated. If half way through next season they were 2nd place, what would you say? Remeber, Everton were on a similar level to West Brom last year.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

what about the season before? We had a good season then finishing 7th. Poor premiership teams dont finish 7th!

I believe that 3/4 way through that season you were 4th place ahead of both Liverpool and Newcastle too.. Around April, things began to cumble!!

Third_Echelon wrote:

OK we had a bad season last time around. Most teams go through bad patches and have bad seasons. There were a few things happening in the background that were not good for the club. The rooney thing for example. He was just getting too big of an ego for his own good. This had a bad effect on the team no doubtingly...

Fair enough, this provides an explanation for how poor the season was. You must remember however, I am not saying Everton are a relegation side. I am saying they are not a top 4/5 team. I am saying that their form will drop over the remainder of the season and they will finish a few place below what they are now.

Third_Echelon wrote:

We had a good clear out of the players that didnt want to play for everton. Dead wood was cleared. Radzinski had overstayed his welcome. He wanted to go and he was sold. If a players doesn't want to play for the team get rid of him. He started mouthing at the end before he was sold. Teams dont need that type of sh1t going on..

Does this apply to Gravesen too?

Third_Echelon wrote:

we had 3 additions.. so what? whats your point? this only proves that we have good players in the first place and that other factors were affecting the teams performance. We have the right players at the moment...

Fair enough, but the players you had and added are not good enough to consistently maintain their current form. There is certainly a good basis and work ethic but over the full season, these alone are not enough. You do not have any "world class" players as such.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Come on for god sake. giving them too much credit.. get over yourself will you???
The point about the irish team is very valid in this case

The Irish team is not a suitable comparison and if you think so, you know nothing about football.

jesus_thats_gre

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

The most iportant question and one that is more pertinent than all those asked by mr_angry is are they champions, as Arsenal are and the answer to that is No. It will take more than what Everton are putting in at the moment to keep them in the Champions League spots. Currently there are (think it's) 11 players playing for their contracts, once 5 or 6 of those become settled in their contracts again they will return to their usual Lacklustre selves.

Excellent point!





Imagine they actually got into the CL. How do you think they would get on?

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Perhaps liverpool have made bad purchases? Doens't say moyes will....

Doesn't mean he won't either. Regardless of the minor argument, who do think he will buy or what positions will he look to bolster? As I have said already, I think is going to spend a large portion of the wopping 10 million on who he thinks will put away 20 a season. Everton do not have this and if they can get the right player it will be a good thing for them. However, this 20 goals a season player will need a place in the starting 11. He won't drop Bent, he will play the two together. This will reduce the numbers in midfield from 5 to 4 and in the long run have the effect of causing the team to concede more goals. The obvious goal of 2 strikers would be to score even more but I think this goal will not be attained. However, it is a worthwhile gamble. If it pays off them I will likely be proven wrong. I do not think it will though.

Third_Echelon wrote:

You were saying though that the same situation i.e. being top of the league has happened to other clubs like villa, sheffield wednesday etc and they have dropped off... my point was that these other clubs fortunes in past seasons have zero affect on everton's form today. just because the other teams dropped away does not mean everton will..

Then Everton will be one of the only teams not to have done so.. It is conceivable that they do stay there but I do not think they will..

Third_Echelon wrote:

I dont remember GH playing one up front in a 4-1-4-1 formation?
Different tactics. liverpool under GH were not good to watch.
Watching everton play against liverpool you cannot say that they played a boring game. it was a fast passing game.

Thats strange, I do. 4-1-4-1 is the exact same as 4-5-1 chap. Watching Liverpool against Everton was not exciting because of the style of play, it was exciting purely because for the first time in a long long time, Liverpool were no favourites and not ahead of Everton..

We had these arguments for the past two years chap. When Liverpool were ahead of Everton and beating Everton consistentlym, for many years, you argued that Everton were better than Liverpool. This season, Everton have been ahead of Liverpool for a total of 4 months and you are trying to argue that I do not have a basis for arguing that Liverpool will finish ahead of Everton.. I think you should take a look at yourself..

Third_Echelon wrote:

He played 4-4-2 last season with virtually the same first 12/13 as you have stated above.... He didn't seem to play it then. Perhaps he has found a system that works??
Are you inside his head? Do you know what he really wants to play? Im sure he wants to win... which he is doing

He played 4-4-2 because he had more than 1 decent stiker. He has since got rid of 2 strikers who didn't want to stay and replaced them with 1 striker and 2 midfielders. I don't think it is a coincidence that he now plays 5 in the midfield and 1 up front. Hence my argument that his had was forced by the limited selection of players

Third_Echelon wrote:

Shouldn't every teams tactics require 100% from every player?

You know what I mean. If a player is week in week out at full throttle they will burn out. They need a rest now and again. Everton do not have the depth in their squad to allow the first teams players a break.

mr_angry

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

The most iportant question and one that is more pertinent than all those asked by mr_angry is are they champions, as Arsenal are and the answer to that is No. It will take more than what Everton are putting in at the moment to keep them in the Champions League spots. Currently there are (think it's) 11 players playing for their contracts, once 5 or 6 of those become settled in their contracts again they will return to their usual Lacklustre selves.

I don't think thats the point being argued here T4TF. The point is, will Everton be able to maintain their current form and finish ahead of Liverpool. If you ask me to directly compare them to Arsenal, Chelsea, or even Manchester United, I'd have to say that I think they'll be overtaken. But in general, will their form remain good, and will they actually finish ahead of Liverpool for once? I actually think they will.

And against jesus_thats_gre's point on the International comparison, I don't think morale and team spirit are a function of how often people get together. In that case, no international team would ever have any, yet teams like Ireland clearly do. And you're correct in your assertion that Ireland haven't won any major international championships, but I don't expect them to do so. Neither do I expect Everton to win the Premiership. Ireland's average form dictates that they should make it to the knock-out stages of the major competitions every now and again, which we have done. Everton's average form so far this season dictates that they should finish 2nd in the Premiership. However, I like you have reservations about them holding onto that placing. But I don't think they will drop back down the table like a stone, and likewise, I don't think Liverpool are in any danger of leaping up the table anytime soon.

I saw a frightening statistic about Liverpool on Football365 last week. When they came from 2-0 down against Fulham back in October to win 4-2, it was the first time they had come from behind to win an away league match since 1991. Thats the kind of hurdle that Liverpool have to overcome, but I don't see them fixing the problem anytime soon.

jesus_thats_gre

mr_angry wrote:

. However, I like you have reservations about them holding onto that placing. But I don't think they will drop back down the table like a stone, and likewise, I don't think Liverpool are in any danger of leaping up the table anytime soon.

I didn't say they would drop to the lower half of the table.. I did at that start of the season but not any longer.

mr_angry

So what was your original point? I thought it was that Liverpool would still finish above Everton?

jesus_thats_gre

mr_angry wrote:

So what was your original point? I thought it was that Liverpool would still finish above Everton?

Liverpool will finish above Everton, i.e. Liverpool will likely get 4th place ahead of them. Fingers crossed and all..

I dismissed Everton as being genuine contenders for the top 4/5 places and am of the opinion that they will finish 6th or 7th behind Liverpool, Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Middlesborough/Newcastle/Villa.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Perhaps but they are not good players. A good team they are, however this will change. They also have good tactics but this is dependent on the team morale and fitness being maintained and I do not believe it will be maintained.

That doesn't make sense??? A good team that doesn't have good players??? What defines a good player in your book?

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

How about this argument. West Brom are quite poor this season and will , or very nearly, get relegated. If half way through next season they were 2nd place, what would you say? Remeber, Everton were on a similar level to West Brom last year.

Your point was though that everton were only good because they had good team spirit.

I was saying to you that other teams have good spirit as well but do badly, therefore everton's success must not be on spirit alone....

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I believe that 3/4 way through that season you were 4th place ahead of both Liverpool and Newcastle too.. Around April, things began to cumble!!

we were unlucky with a few injuries... and have been for many years, but everton's luck seems to be changing

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Fair enough, this provides an explanation for how poor the season was. You must remember however, I am not saying Everton are a relegation side. I am saying they are not a top 4/5 team. I am saying that their form will drop over the remainder of the season and they will finish a few place below what they are now.

Thats not what it sounded like to me....

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Does this apply to Gravesen too?

Gravesen didn't want to leave. He said he would consider it if he didn't see an improvement and wanted to play european football.. He did say though that he wanted to play european football for everton... that in my book is a player who wants to play for everton. If he didnt he would have left during last summer.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Fair enough, but the players you had and added are not good enough to consistently maintain their current form. There is certainly a good basis and work ethic but over the full season, these alone are not enough. You do not have any "world class" players as such.

good enough compared to who?

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Irish team is not a suitable comparison and if you think so, you know nothing about football.

Of course the irish team is a suitable comparison...

During the 80's and 90's ireland were a team of lower division players, no big stars. Playing well together as a team and pulling of major results against bigger teams???

This is how you see everton isnt it? Surely Ireland have done the same thing over the years?

I know nothing about football??? Please :rolleyes:

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Doesn't mean he won't either. Regardless of the minor argument, who do think he will buy or what positions will he look to bolster? As I have said already, I think is going to spend a large portion of the wopping 10 million on who he thinks will put away 20 a season. Everton do not have this and if they can get the right player it will be a good thing for them. However, this 20 goals a season player will need a place in the starting 11. He won't drop Bent, he will play the two together. This will reduce the numbers in midfield from 5 to 4 and in the long run have the effect of causing the team to concede more goals. The obvious goal of 2 strikers would be to score even more but I think this goal will not be attained. However, it is a worthwhile gamble. If it pays off them I will likely be proven wrong. I do not think it will though.

Moyes has made excellent buys for the money he has had available since he has come to everton.

Why wouldn't he drop bent? 4-4-2 could also work, i dont see why it shouldn't..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Thats strange, I do. 4-1-4-1 is the exact same as 4-5-1 chap. Watching Liverpool against Everton was not exciting because of the style of play, it was exciting purely because for the first time in a long long time, Liverpool were no favourites and not ahead of Everton..

So when fowler and owen were on the same starting 11 fowler or owen played in midfield with only one of them upfront?

Owen and Fowler

Owen and Litmanen

Owen and Heskey

Owen and Baros

Baros and Heskey

Baros and Cisse

I very rarely remember pool playing with a lone striker.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

He played 4-4-2 because he had more than 1 decent stiker. He has since got rid of 2 strikers who didn't want to stay and replaced them with 1 striker and 2 midfielders. I don't think it is a coincidence that he now plays 5 in the midfield and 1 up front. Hence my argument that his had was forced by the limited selection of players

Ferguson when he has been coming on this season has scored a few goals. Im sure that he has considered playing those two upfront. McFadden and Chadwick are also available. They have strikers available if needsbe.. He is choosing this formation as it works for this team...

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Liverpool will finish above Everton, i.e. Liverpool will likely get 4th place ahead of them. Fingers crossed and all..

You dont sound too confident.. first of all they will finish above them and then you are crossing your fingers just in case they dont... either they will or they wont...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I dismissed Everton as being genuine contenders for the top 4/5 places and am of the opinion that they will finish 6th or 7th behind Liverpool, Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Middlesborough/Newcastle/Villa.

All teams that we have picked up points against this season apart from arsenal and chelsea:
Liverpool: won 1-0 3pts
United: drew 0-0 1 pt
Boro: won 1-0 3 pts
Villa drew 1-1 1 pt
Newcastle: drew 1-1 1 pt

So from a potential 21 pts against those teams they accumulated 9. 43% of the possible pts available against their close rivals.. thats good in my book... let the form do the talking...

The Insider

Third_Echelon wrote:

So when fowler and owen were on the same starting 11 fowler or owen played in midfield with only one of them upfront?

Owen and Fowler

Owen and Litmanen

Owen and Heskey

Owen and Baros

Baros and Heskey

Baros and Cisse

I very rarely remember pool playing with a lone striker.

Actually we quite often palyed 4-5-1 under GH, most of the time Heskey played it was out on the right with Owen up front on his own, Owen and Litmanen rearely played together, same with Owen and Baros, again with Baros and Cisse, Rafa actually had Cisse playing on the right with Baros through the middle. So Liverpool have played that type for a long long time, but for someone who doesw not follow them closely they might be mistaken in thinking they have been playing 2 strikers

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

That doesn't make sense??? A good team that doesn't have good players??? What defines a good player in your book?

They do not have good individual players. What do you not understand about that? Not a single world class player in that squad!!

Third_Echelon wrote:

Your point was though that everton were only good because they had good team spirit.

And that is still my point. This is pulling them through at the moment and when either this breaks, or injuries set in, they will drop down the table.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I was saying to you that other teams have good spirit as well but do badly, therefore everton's success must not be on spirit alone....

A bunch of poor players with high morale make a below average team. A group of average players with high morale can have an amazing effect.. A small squad of average players with high morale will run out of steam over a full term.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

we were unlucky with a few injuries... and have been for many years, but everton's luck seems to be changing

And this will happen again. Liverpool have already suffered greatly with injuries so once this is past us we should be so steady progress till we pass Everton.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Gravesen didn't want to leave. He said he would consider it if he didn't see an improvement and wanted to play european football.. He did say though that he wanted to play european football for everton... that in my book is a player who wants to play for everton. If he didnt he would have left during last summer.

Has he signed a new contract yet?

Third_Echelon wrote:

good enough compared to who?

Liverpool, Arsenal, United and Chelsea.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Thats not what it sounded like to me....

Where did I say in this thread that they will get relegated this season?

Third_Echelon wrote:

Of course the irish team is a suitable comparison...

During the 80's and 90's ireland were a team of lower division players, no big stars. Playing well together as a team and pulling of major results against bigger teams???

This is how you see everton isnt it? Surely Ireland have done the same thing over the years?

I know nothing about football??? Please :rolleyes:

Simple, its not a good comparison.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Moyes has made excellent buys for the money he has had available since he has come to everton.

Why wouldn't he drop bent? 4-4-2 could also work, i dont see why it shouldn't..

He won't drop Bent. He will play 4-4-2 and your defensive record will suffer as the midfield will no longer be packed solid with hard workers. The Everton midfield are made up mainly of hard workers and this is why they concede so few goals. This will change as Moyes move away from playing a defensive style of football.

Again, I am speculating as to what will happen. That is 1 of 50 things that could happen. Do you understand that?

Third_Echelon wrote:

So when fowler and owen were on the same starting 11 fowler or owen played in midfield with only one of them upfront?

Owen and Fowler

Owen and Litmanen

Owen and Heskey

Owen and Baros

Baros and Heskey

Baros and Cisse

I very rarely remember pool playing with a lone striker.

There was many instances were GH played only 1 striker. The fact you are arguing this point shows how little you actually know. Benitez has probably played the same amount of games this season with 1 striker as he has with 2.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Ferguson when he has been coming on this season has scored a few goals. Im sure that he has considered playing those two upfront. McFadden and Chadwick are also available. They have strikers available if needsbe.. He is choosing this formation as it works for this team...

Ferguson is passed it and is not useful for anymore than 10 minutes. McFadden and Chadwick are obviously not worth much considering the number of appearances they have.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

You dont sound too confident.. first of all they will finish above them and then you are crossing your fingers just in case they dont... either they will or they wont...

I am confident, just not arrogant. I can actually accept that what I say might happen may not actually happen. Can you acknowledge that Everton may not maintain their form?

Third_Echelon wrote:

All teams that we have picked up points against this season apart from arsenal and chelsea:
Liverpool: won 1-0 3pts
United: drew 0-0 1 pt
Boro: won 1-0 3 pts
Villa drew 1-1 1 pt
Newcastle: drew 1-1 1 pt

So from a potential 21 pts against those teams they accumulated 9. 43% of the possible pts available against their close rivals.. thats good in my book... let the form do the talking...

That fine but it means **** all. Look at Liverpool previous seasons. They were great at getting points of the likes of NEwcastle and United but they would loose to Oldham the next week. For the moment that record is fine but it will not be maintained for the second half of the season.

jesus_thats_gre

The Insider wrote:

Actually we quite often palyed 4-5-1 under GH, most of the time Heskey played it was out on the right with Owen up front on his own, Owen and Litmanen rearely played together, same with Owen and Baros, again with Baros and Cisse, Rafa actually had Cisse playing on the right with Baros through the middle. So Liverpool have played that type for a long long time, but for someone who doesw not follow them closely they might be mistaken in thinking they have been playing 2 strikers

Spot on.

emertoff

As an Evertonian of over 20 years, I would bite your hand off at this point to finish 6th. It would mean UEFA Cup and even that is a massive achievement for a side tipped for relegation. Given that, in general at least the possibility of CL for Everton must be considered by LFC and other fans.
Surely it is good for the Premiership that the predictability of the league has at least temporarily changed? I watch the guys on Sky ond it practically sticks in their throat when they are discussing the league table.

I'm not one to slag off Liverpool either. It was great in the 80's to see both clubs do well. In a way they are just suffering the same set of emotions that Evertonians had to deal with in the early 1990's as regards gradually falling expectations. I remember the time when Everton expected to win the league etc etc, LFC have gone from demanding the title every year to seeing 4th place as the holy grail. It's a slippery slope. I hope they hold on to Gerrard as he is a local lad and Chelsea are just mercenaries.