Red vs Blue: Tis gonna be a biggie (possible scores)

Third_Echelon

The Insider wrote:

Actually we quite often palyed 4-5-1 under GH, most of the time Heskey played it was out on the right with Owen up front on his own, Owen and Litmanen rearely played together, same with Owen and Baros, again with Baros and Cisse, Rafa actually had Cisse playing on the right with Baros through the middle. So Liverpool have played that type for a long long time, but for someone who doesw not follow them closely they might be mistaken in thinking they have been playing 2 strikers

So you are saying that cisse was playing on the right side of midfield? Here was me thinking he was a striker???

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

They do not have good individual players. What do you not understand about that? Not a single world class player in that squad!!

Of course they have good individual players. A team isnt about individual players. Its about the 11 on the pitch playing together as a team...

And liverpool have world class players as well? What would you define as world class? the term world class is used way too often... Does this mean that a player should have won the world cup to be world class or get in the best players in the world first 11???

Gerrard is the only player that if you sold you'd get decent money for...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

And that is still my point. This is pulling them through at the moment and when either this breaks, or injuries set in, they will drop down the table.

I think you need new batteries for your crystal ball there... these predications of yours are becoming imfamous...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

A bunch of poor players with high morale make a below average team. A group of average players with high morale can have an amazing effect.. A small squad of average players with high morale will run out of steam over a full term.

What if this morale you talk of doesn't run out... why should it only last for 20 games of the season?

The Insider

Thats exactly what I am saying...Rafa had him playing on the right side with Baros in the middle...kind of the same role as Duff plays for Chelsea

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

And this will happen again. Liverpool have already suffered greatly with injuries so once this is past us we should be so steady progress till we pass Everton.

again... crystal ball time here... HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN????

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Has he signed a new contract yet?

No. but he is being offered one and is considering it..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Liverpool, Arsenal, United and Chelsea.

so you think we'll finish 5th going on this... i thought boro, newcastle, villa etc were all going to finish above us as well???
And if you are putting liverpools average team in there with the big 3 you are kidding yourself

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Where did I say in this thread that they will get relegated this season?

You didn't. I didnt say you said that...... you said that they would 'fall off down the table'..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Simple, its not a good comparison.

simple, it is a good comparison... dont know how you dont see it...
Doesnt matter what competition or setup it is...

Both teams according to you... have average players. Team has good morale and plays well and gets good results against 'bigger' opposition.... looks comparable to me

Jivin Turkey

Third_Echelon wrote:

And liverpool have world class players as well? What would you define as world class? the term world class is used way too often... Does this mean that a player should have won the world cup to be world class or get in the best players in the world first 11???

Gerrard is the only player that if you sold you'd get decent money for...

That is garbage, Gerrard, Alsonso are both world class no doubt, I dare to say Baros is getting there, he still is only 23 after all, Kewell is but isnt showing it. And they would get good money for all of the above, and Carragher I would think.

Third_Echelon wrote:

What if this morale you talk of doesn't run out... why should it only last for 20 games of the season?

What are you saying here, Everton are going to finish in second ahead of Arsenal and United if "this morale doesnt run out"???

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

He won't drop Bent. He will play 4-4-2 and your defensive record will suffer as the midfield will no longer be packed solid with hard workers. The Everton midfield are made up mainly of hard workers and this is why they concede so few goals. This will change as Moyes move away from playing a defensive style of football.

Again, I am speculating as to what will happen. That is 1 of 50 things that could happen. Do you understand that?

Our midfield is pretty attacking in fairness...

Kilbane on the left and Osman on the right get forward a lot.... Gravesen and Cahill are attacking style players as well...

Carsley sits back more often than the other two, but to say that we pack the centre with defending style players isnt true....

Gravesen works the length of the park, up and down all day he goes...

Our centre back pairing of a combination of weir, stubbs and yobo are good and solid.. they deserve a lot of credit for keeping the goals out as well...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

There was many instances were GH played only 1 striker. The fact you are arguing this point shows how little you actually know. Benitez has probably played the same amount of games this season with 1 striker as he has with 2.

ok, many instances. So you are saying that it was not their main tactic then? perhaps 4-4-2 was the main tactic and they used the lone striker on occassions?

In fairness, this season he has been forced to play it through the shortfall in firepower upfront with injuries...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Ferguson is passed it and is not useful for anymore than 10 minutes. McFadden and Chadwick are obviously not worth much considering the number of appearances they have.

They are both good players (mc f and chad). They aren't playing as 'the system' with one striker is working... thats why i dont see moyes changing this if it is working...

Jivin Turkey

Third_Echelon wrote:

so you think we'll finish 5th going on this... i thought boro, newcastle, villa etc were all going to finish above us as well???

No he said Liverpool would finish ahead of Everton who would be left to battle for the subsequent places down to 8th those clubs.

Third_Echelon wrote:

And if you are putting liverpools average team in there with the big 3 you are kidding yourself

No one is. Its plain to see that they are all ahead of Liverpool, at least Liverpool fans can admit it, as opposed to arguing it over 6 pages.

Third_Echelon wrote:

simple, it is a good comparison... dont know how you dont see it...
Doesnt matter what competition or setup it is...

Both teams according to you... have average players. Team has good morale and plays well and gets good results against 'bigger' opposition.... looks comparable to me

Its not a good comparison in the slightest, and it totally debunks your own arguement. If Ireland are similar to Everton (average players but great team spirit/morale), look at Ireland over the last 20 years. Yes they beat the best on their day, but they only ever qualified for the knock out stages of 2 tournaments. Thats 2 out of 11. They only qualifed for 3 out of 11. In on of those tournaments they advanced to the quarters without winning a game, and only scoring 2 goals (and as a sidenote back then the team was littered with amazing players).

In the end this combination will only take you so far, and you will not be in the mix for any type of glory. Just like Ireland.

Third_Echelon

Jivin Turkey wrote:

That is garbage, Gerrard, Alsonso are both world class no doubt, I dare to say Baros is getting there, he still is only 23 after all, Kewell is but isnt showing it. And they would get good money for all of the above, and Carragher I would think.

It doesn't seem to be showing in fairness.

Gerrard and Alonso are good players.... Again this 'world class' term is banded about way too often about certain players... what is the criteria to be world class? To win lots of trophies? Be in the best team in the world? To be the best player in your position in the world?

What have gerrard or alonso done on the world stage?

Sorry Carragher?? is that a typo?

Jivin Turkey wrote:

What are you saying here, Everton are going to finish in second ahead of Arsenal and United if "this morale doesnt run out"???

I didnt say that.... I dont think they'll finish second... but im just working on the logic that jesus_thats_gre is working from here..... he claims that its only the team morale that has them up there... if it doesnt run out they should finish second???

Third_Echelon

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No one is. Its plain to see that they are all ahead of Liverpool, at least Liverpool fans can admit it, as opposed to arguing it over 6 pages.

i didnt say that we had a better team or squad than arsenal, man utd or chelsea. Im defending the point that JTG was making that everton are only up there on team spirit alone, which is not true.. there's a lot more to it than that... I think they are not being dished the credit they deserve and are being dismissed as though it is an eventuality that they will dissappear...

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Its not a good comparison in the slightest, and it totally debunks your own arguement. If Ireland are similar to Everton (average players but great team spirit/morale), look at Ireland over the last 20 years. Yes they beat the best on their day, but they only ever qualified for the knock out stages of 2 tournaments. Thats 2 out of 11. They only qualifed for 3 out of 11. In on of those tournaments they advanced to the quarters without winning a game, and only scoring 2 goals (and as a sidenote back then the team was littered with amazing players).

In the end this combination will only take you so far, and you will not be in the mix for any type of glory. Just like Ireland.

It doesnt debunk my argument at all.... I didnt say that international and domestic competition styles could be compared... they cant they are totally different.. my point was, as i have said before, Ireland got a lot of good results with 'average players' with good team morale, hard work and spirit. Apparently these are the same 'qualities' attributed to everton's success in the view of JTG. thats were the comparison is.

The fact that ireland only got to quarter finals/knock out stages only etc, cannot be compared to a league situation as i have said. Its the overall goal of doing well is what only can be compared....

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

So you are saying that cisse was playing on the right side of midfield? Here was me thinking he was a striker???

I don't even need to highlight how little you actually know.

Jivin Turkey

Third_Echelon wrote:

It doesn't seem to be showing in fairness.

Gerrard and Alonso are good players.... Again this 'world class' term is banded about way too often about certain players... what is the criteria to be world class? To win lots of trophies? Be in the best team in the world? To be the best player in your position in the world?

What have gerrard or alonso done on the world stage?

Sorry Carragher?? is that a typo?

Gerrard and Alonso are world class. Both have been consistently exceptional over the last number of seasons in two of the best leagues in the world. Both have played at major championships, and in the Champions League.

Carragher is not a typo. I never said he was world class. I just said they would get a decent fee for him if they sold him. One of the Italian teams was linked with him during the week for about €8M I think.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I didnt say that.... I dont think they'll finish second... but im just working on the logic that jesus_thats_gre is working from here..... he claims that its only the team morale that has them up there... if it doesnt run out they should finish second???

Ok then, Ill ask you, where do you think they will finish? Honestly. I reckon 7th, I think that is a fair enough assessment.

Morale, a good work ethic, and a good manager, some good players, and some players punching above their weight have them up there. But I really feel they lack the depth of the squad or the experience of going for Europe to get there.

jesus_thats_gre

emertoff wrote:

As an Evertonian of over 20 years, I would bite your hand off at this point to finish 6th. It would mean UEFA Cup and even that is a massive achievement for a side tipped for relegation. Given that, in general at least the possibility of CL for Everton must be considered by LFC and other fans.
Surely it is good for the Premiership that the predictability of the league has at least temporarily changed? I watch the guys on Sky ond it practically sticks in their throat when they are discussing the league table.

I'm not one to slag off Liverpool either. It was great in the 80's to see both clubs do well. In a way they are just suffering the same set of emotions that Evertonians had to deal with in the early 1990's as regards gradually falling expectations. I remember the time when Everton expected to win the league etc etc, LFC have gone from demanding the title every year to seeing 4th place as the holy grail. It's a slippery slope. I hope they hold on to Gerrard as he is a local lad and Chelsea are just mercenaries.

As I have said already, fair played to Everton if they do manage to stay up there.. I don't actually see Everton as a threat in the traditional sense and as such don't have a dislike for them in same way as I do for United.. So if they do well it wouldnt exactly be a problem for me, I just do not think they will continue as they have..

Jivin Turkey

Third_Echelon wrote:

i didnt say that we had a better team or squad than arsenal, man utd or chelsea. Im defending the point that JTG was making that everton are only up there on team spirit alone, which is not true.. there's a lot more to it than that... I think they are not being dished the credit they deserve and are being dismissed as though it is an eventuality that they will dissappear...

Do you think they have a better squad than Liverpool? Or Middlesboro?

They are getting a lot of credit, from everyone, I havnt seen one begrudger to their success. People are just giving their opinions that they wont be in the mix come May.

Third_Echelon wrote:

It doesnt debunk my argument at all.... I didnt say that international and domestic competition styles could be compared... they cant they are totally different.. my point was, as i have said before, Ireland got a lot of good results with 'average players' with good team morale, hard work and spirit. Apparently these are the same 'qualities' attributed to everton's success in the view of JTG. thats were the comparison is.

The fact that ireland only got to quarter finals/knock out stages only etc, cannot be compared to a league situation as i have said. Its the overall goal of doing well is what only can be compared....

Im afraid it does. You said compared them to Ireland, saying look how they did with an "average" team, good morale and work rate. But Ireland didnt really do anything ever, they could beat anyone on their day, but ultimately and regularly (when it counted) they were turned over by teams with more class and experience. A virtue the like of Liverpool hold over Everton.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Of course they have good individual players. A team isnt about individual players. Its about the 11 on the pitch playing together as a team...

And liverpool have world class players as well? What would you define as world class? the term world class is used way too often... Does this mean that a player should have won the world cup to be world class or get in the best players in the world first 11???

Gerrard is the only player that if you sold you'd get decent money for...


I think you need new batteries for your crystal ball there... these predications of yours are becoming imfamous...

You are behaving like a fool.. What do you consider decent money? 15 million? 10 million?

Third_Echelon wrote:

What if this morale you talk of doesn't run out... why should it only last for 20 games of the season?

It might not run out but I am speculating that it will. What do you not comprehend about that?

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Our midfield is pretty attacking in fairness...

Kilbane on the left and Osman on the right get forward a lot.... Gravesen and Cahill are attacking style players as well...

Carsley sits back more often than the other two, but to say that we pack the centre with defending style players isnt true....

Gravesen works the length of the park, up and down all day he goes...

Our centre back pairing of a combination of weir, stubbs and yobo are good and solid.. they deserve a lot of credit for keeping the goals out as well...

You summary of the centre back pairing is correct. However, Yobo is not good. Kilbane, Osman, Gravesen and whoever work their socks off. They cannot maintain that rate for the whole season. Ye do not have anyone to replace them. Again, what do you not understand about that?

Third_Echelon wrote:

ok, many instances. So you are saying that it was not their main tactic then? perhaps 4-4-2 was the main tactic and they used the lone striker on occassions?

His main tactic was 4-4-2 but there was many occassions when he played 4-5-1 or whatever you want to call it. That is why GH is renouned for playing players out of position.

Third_Echelon wrote:

In fairness, this season he has been forced to play it through the shortfall in firepower upfront with injuries...

This again shows how little you actually know. For 75% of the time that Cisse and Baros were fit, he statred with only 1 man up front.

Third_Echelon wrote:

They are both good players (mc f and chad). They aren't playing as 'the system' with one striker is working... thats why i dont see moyes changing this if it is working...

How many appearances have they as strikers? How many goals?

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

It doesn't seem to be showing in fairness.

Gerrard and Alonso are good players.... Again this 'world class' term is banded about way too often about certain players... what is the criteria to be world class? To win lots of trophies? Be in the best team in the world? To be the best player in your position in the world?

What have gerrard or alonso done on the world stage?

Sorry Carragher?? is that a typo?

Once again, doing your argument alot of favour. What about Gerard, especially Gerard, Alonso and Hamann are not world class? What qualities make a world class player? Kewell was seen as one of best young talents in world football for years but has not done the business recently. Baros was top scorer in the recent Euro championships and has one of the best international records of any striker.

I wouldnt agree that Carragher could be considered world class but he is a class act.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I didnt say that.... I dont think they'll finish second... but im just working on the logic that jesus_thats_gre is working from here..... he claims that its only the team morale that has them up there... if it doesnt run out they should finish second???

Once again, you are totally missing the argument. You have backed yourself into your little corner and put your blue glasses on..

Morale and togetherness is what has them so high. They are not a top 5 team and while their performances have earned them their placing, their form will no continue and they will drop out of the top 4 at the very least. Morale etc has made up for their shortcomings. Morale however can not make up for injuries or being worn out over a full season.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

It doesnt debunk my argument at all.... QUOTE]

It does, its a pointless comparison.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

again... crystal ball time here... HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN????

I do not know 100% that this will happen.. i am speculating that this will happen. what do you not understand by this?

Third_Echelon wrote:

No. but he is being offered one and is considering it..

How long has he been considering it and when does his contract expire? Do you think he will be there next season. I predict United!

Third_Echelon wrote:

so you think we'll finish 5th going on this... i thought boro, newcastle, villa etc were all going to finish above us as well???
And if you are putting liverpools average team in there with the big 3 you are kidding yourself

I am not saying Liverpool are in the big 3 at the moment. They are still one of the biggest clubs in the world however.

Is all you can do is nit pick between whether I think they will finish 5th, 6th or 7th. So childish its incredible.

Third_Echelon wrote:

You didn't. I didnt say you said that...... you said that they would 'fall off down the table'..

They will drop/fall/slide down the table. They will not maintain their current position of 2nd or even 3rd.

Third_Echelon wrote:

simple, it is a good comparison... dont know how you dont see it...
Doesnt matter what competition or setup it is...


Both teams according to you... have average players. Team has good morale and plays well and gets good results against 'bigger' opposition.... looks comparable to me

They are in totally different competitions that have totally different formats.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

You are behaving like a fool.. What do you consider decent money? 15 million? 10 million?

Not behaving like a fool... i didnt get personal...

I am giving you counter-arguments to your 'SPECULATION'...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

It might not run out but I am speculating that it will. What do you not comprehend about that?

As i said i am providing you with reasons why it may not happen.... you are being over simplistic in your 'speculation'.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

You summary of the centre back pairing is correct. However, Yobo is not good. Kilbane, Osman, Gravesen and whoever work their socks off. They cannot maintain that rate for the whole season. Ye do not have anyone to replace them. Again, what do you not understand about that?

Yobo is not good? get yourself checked out will you...

When we signed him, juventus, milan, arsenal and real were all wanting to sign him. There was recent speculation that arsenal wanted to sign him.. He is one of the best young centre backs in the world..

Captain of Nigeria at 22. That says something, and wouldn't indicate to me that he is a bad player..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

His main tactic was 4-4-2 but there was many occassions when he played 4-5-1 or whatever you want to call it. That is why GH is renouned for playing players out of position.

ok, so i was right about that then.... thanks

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

This again shows how little you actually know. For 75% of the time that Cisse and Baros were fit, he statred with only 1 man up front.

Anytime i've seen them play they were up front together... cisse was not playing as a right midfielder/right winger... he was an attacking player upfront..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

How many appearances have they as strikers? How many goals?

Still both young players. i couldnt be arsed looking for their record... check out toffeeweb.com for details

Mc Fadden is the only player to have scored goals for scotland for the past 2 years.. that is saying something that he can score goals in a poor scottish side... he still only 21 or 22...

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Sorry Carragher?? is that a typo?

Once again, doing your argument alot of favour. What about Gerard, especially Gerard, Alonso and Hamann are not world class? What qualities make a world class player? Kewell was seen as one of best young talents in world football for years but has not done the business recently. Baros was top scorer in the recent Euro championships and has one of the best international records of any striker.

Kewell has done sweet fcuk all in his career in fairness... He has promised but never deliverd. He was a good player at leeds. He hasn't shown any of the qualities that he posessed at leeds since he has been at liverpool.. there has been the odd sparkle,but that isnt good enough...

Agreed Baros is a good young player... he will be a top international striker as he progresses, but too often for liverpool he doesn't perform.

Gerrard i agree is a good player. One of the top midfielders in the premiership. When he is on song he is good. His attitude is not that of a 'world class' player... too many times he looses the rag and goes off and kicks people for the craic... you cant argue that... this is not the behaviour of a world class player.

Alonso is a good player as well. I dont think he is a world class player though.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I wouldnt agree that Carragher could be considered world class but he is a class act.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Once again, you are totally missing the argument. You have backed yourself into your little corner and put your blue glasses on.

not at all..

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Morale and togetherness is what has them so high. They are not a top 5 team and while their performances have earned them their placing, their form will no continue and they will drop out of the top 4 at the very least. Morale etc has made up for their shortcomings. Morale however can not make up for injuries or being worn out over a full season.

I think you are underestimating them... thats my point.

Ok since the premiership has started everton have come into bad times... they were having a bad time of it, with some success here and there throughout. As a premiership side going on recent history, yes, they would not be considered a top 5 club.

This season they have earned the right to be were they are. righting them off in my opinion and many others is a bit premature.

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I do not know 100% that this will happen.. i am speculating that this will happen. what do you not understand by this?

of course i understand that... im telling you why your 'speculation' is flawed.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

How long has he been considering it and when does his contract expire? Do you think he will be there next season. I predict United!

He has been offered an improved contract in the last few weeks.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Is all you can do is nit pick between whether I think they will finish 5th, 6th or 7th. So childish its incredible.

Im not nitpicking or being childish... im just using your arguments and what you present before me to respond to.. thats not childish...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

They are in totally different competitions that have totally different formats.

as i have said in a previous post to another post.. i am well aware of that. I was not comparing competitions or formats...
The comparison was team style and morale.... what do you not understand by this?.. to coin a phrase

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Not behaving like a fool... i didnt get personal...

I didn't call you anything. I stated you are behaving like one, if you find that offensive then I apologise..

Third_Echelon

earlier post wrote:

You are behaving like a fool.. What do you consider decent money? 15 million? 10 million?

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I didn't call you anything. I stated you are behaving like one, if you find that offensive then I apologise..

that in my book is calling someone a fool...

apology accepted.

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Yobo is not good? get yourself checked out will you...

When we signed him, juventus, milan, arsenal and real were all wanting to sign him. There was recent speculation that arsenal wanted to sign him.. He is one of the best young centre backs in the world..

Captain of Nigeria at 22. That says something, and wouldn't indicate to me that he is a bad player..

If he is so good then why is he not playing..

Just out of curiosity, considering the captain of Nigeria must be a decent player, what is your opionion of El Hadj Diouf, the 2 times African Player of the year?

Third_Echelon wrote:

Anytime i've seen them play they were up front together... cisse was not playing as a right midfielder/right winger... he was an attacking player upfront..

So you are basing all this argument about Liverpool on about 4 matches this season?

Third_Echelon wrote:

Still both young players. i couldnt be arsed looking for their record... check out toffeeweb.com for details

Mc Fadden is the only player to have scored goals for scotland for the past 2 years.. that is saying something that he can score goals in a poor scottish side... he still only 21 or 22...

I other words, the record doesn't exist because neither have done anythign of worth?

Darren Fletcher is the Scotland captain FFS, what do you make of him? Scotland are appalling, remember that!!

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

Ok since the premiership has started everton have come into bad times... they were having a bad time of it, with some success here and there throughout. As a premiership side going on recent history, yes, they would not be considered a top 5 club.

You are taking the piss right?

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

He has been offered an improved contract in the last few weeks.

How long have he left on his contract? How long has he been mulling over an offer?

Third_Echelon wrote:

as i have said in a previous post to another post.. i am well aware of that. I was not comparing competitions or formats...
The comparison was team style and morale.... what do you not understand by this?.. to coin a phrase

The moral is smilar but because Internation and football is so different, you cannot actually compare the two.. As I have said, the premiesship teams train with each other about 300 days a year and play on average 50 games over a 9 months period. International teams train together 10 times a years and play about 10 games a year.

i.e. totally different

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

that in my book is calling someone a fool...

apology accepted.

acting like a fool - being foolish

Thanx 4 The Fish

That's enough ladies, exchange PMs with phone numbers or somesuch, then ye can discuss it somewhere where the rest of us don't have to watch.