Challenging a speeding ticket

trurl

I'm going to get 2 points and 80€ fine. Are there legal ways to challenge it? Like no printout of the spped I was doing, Garda didn't introduce himself (didn't even say good morning, but that doesn't count), asking for the CE certificate of the speed gun, the proof of calibration, etc.

thanks
Trurl

P. S: no moral highground please

Interceptor

Claim you were under the influence of mind-controlling aliens who harvest adreniline to power their ship? If you were correctly identified to the garda, the number plate, time and location is recorded correctly on the ticket, then you are as done as a turkey on christmas. The speed guns are made in Belgium so will have a CE mark, you can ask about the calibration but unless you are sure it is out of cal then you will get a higher fine and 4 points just for asking. If the amount you were over the speed limit is less than 10% ie 63 in a 60, you could get your speedo independantly checked and claim you were at 60 mph and unaware of wrongdoing.

Other than that its the moral high-ground for the rest of us. Tut-bleedin'-tut.

'c

is_that_so

Problem about legally challenging it is if you fail, points get doubled. Suspect that whole business of "no printout" is either being resolved or has been. So limited recourse to other legal avenues, but a chat to a solicitor will tell you this. As for speedos, EU law allows +/- 15% on them so fairly unlikely that you will find an answer there. In all honesty put it down to experience.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Out of interests sake.... what were you over the speed limit?

ambrose :cool:

cheapthrills

you could always wait and see, i got a ticket in the post 80 euro fine etc. back in may, didnt pay it and still no sign of my summons.
by paying you are admitting guilt without a hearing

oh oh feel moral highground welling up, will stop now!

Blitzkrieger

afaik the "no printout" thing is still working. I'd get legal advice on it though.

ambro25

interceptor wrote:

you can ask about the calibration but unless you are sure it is out of cal then you will get a higher fine and 4 points just for asking.

(and later similar comments in thread).

As I'm still getting to grips with "the system" here, can I ask 'why'? Sounds quite totalitarian to me, this... maybe even in breach of EU Human Rights.

Boggle

If your going to challenge it then do it right... challenge the bill in itself as its surely unconstitutional to get penalised for trying to defend yourself.
(i.e. mandatory doubling of points if you go to court)

Any decent solicitor would tear this to shreds in a court of law.

Our man in Havana

Boggle wrote:

If your going to challenge it then do it right... challenge the bill in itself as its surely unconstitutional to get penalised for trying to defend yourself.
(i.e. mandatory doubling of points if you go to court)

Any decent solicitor would tear this to shreds in a court of law.

For sure!
That's why I would never pay a speeding ticket.

afaik the "no printout" thing is still working.

It could be 6 months or more before that loophole is closed. The only reason the Gardai are still using them is that the majority of victims pay up without quibble.

If stopped the best course of action is to request the printout. Then ask for the serial number of the gun. This has worked for me. All I get is a vacant look and then "Get out of here!"

Note: It is always handy to keep a note book in the glovebox for such occasions. Get as much details as possible. Shoulder number of Garda, Squad car Number etc.

djeclips

ambro25 wrote:

As I'm still getting to grips with "the system" here, can I ask 'why'? Sounds quite totalitarian to me, this... maybe even in breach of EU Human Rights.

As far as I know the way it works is that you get 4 points for the offense but if you pay up they knock two off,then again that could be just rubbish I read somewhere .

Victor_Meldrew

Why is it, that in this country, when people are caught breaking the law, the first thing we do is try to find a way to wriggle out of it? Whether it's a relatively minor crime, such as being caught speeding or more serious stuff, like a judge accused of having indecent material on his computer - rather than being big enough to hold up your hands and admitting that you've broken the law, you have to nitpick through the procedure used by the Gardaí, in search of a loophole.

I'm not taking the moral high-ground, by the way. I'm no angel myself, but if I'm caught speeding, I accept that I have to face the consequences.

Our man in Havana

Victor_Meldrew wrote:

Why is it, that in this country, when people are caught breaking the law, the first thing we do is try to find a way to wriggle out of it? Whether it's a relatively minor crime, such as being caught speeding or more serious stuff, like a judge accused of having indecent material on his computer - rather than being big enough to hold up your hands and admitting that you've broken the law, you have to nitpick through the procedure used by the Gardaí, in search of a loophole.

I'm not taking the moral high-ground, by the way. I'm no angel myself, but if I'm caught speeding, I accept that I have to face the consequences.

If people don't challenge authourity then the authourities will run rough shod over our civil rights. If the law is not perfect it's our duty to show where it is not perfect.
The way things are going we will be living in East Germany in a few years, Its our job to standup to them!

secret_squirrel

Victor_Meldrew wrote:

Why is it, that in this country, when people are caught breaking the law, the first thing we do is try to find a way to wriggle out of it? Whether it's a relatively minor crime, such as being caught speeding or more serious stuff, like a judge accused of having indecent material on his computer - rather than being big enough to hold up your hands and admitting that you've broken the law, you have to nitpick through the procedure used by the Gardaí, in search of a loophole.

I'm not taking the moral high-ground, by the way. I'm no angel myself, but if I'm caught speeding, I accept that I have to face the consequences.

Trurl wrote:

P. S: no moral highground please

Get off your high horse victor! You sound just like your namesake.

Trurl made no admission he was speeding - you've just assumed he was.

Its also up to the public to keep the Guarda honest - if they dont follow the correct procedures then they cant nick someone its as simple as that. Or maybe you'd like them to be able to enter your house without a warrant just coz they felt like it?

And also the whole issue of speeding needs challenging - in our screwed up system they dont even have to prove that the gun has been calibrated recently.

Victor_Meldrew

Trurl made no admission he was speeding - you've just assumed he was.

He didn't come out and say, "I've been wrongly accused of speeding" though, did he? If he wasn't speeding, but has been accused of doing so, then he'd obviously be dead right to challenge the ticket. If he was speeding, why not just be honest and just accept it, rather than hoping that the Gardaí made some sort of procedural error?

RainyDay

Bond-007 wrote:

If people don't challenge authourity then the authourities will run rough shod over our civil rights. If the law is not perfect it's our duty to show where it is not perfect.
The way things are going we will be living in East Germany in a few years, Its our job to standup to them!

This is laughable given the context of the thread. The image of the Stasi flying round giving out €80 fines and penalty points is quite surreal.

It is not a case of us against them. The authorities are representing the people. THey are our friend, not our enemy. They aren't stopping speeding because they are spoilsports - they stopping speeding because it is a major contributary factor to the 400 or so deaths that occur on our roads each year.

Our man in Havana

As was pointed out it is up the public to keep them honest. It they are enforcing bad law, then they need to be told. Bad laws need fixing.

The image of the Stasi flying round giving out €80 fines and penalty points is quite surreal.

Thats the way its headed:( No way to question their tactics or challenge their evidence. Real soviet style policing.

Victor_Meldrew

Thats the way its headed No way to question their tactics or challenge their evidence. Real soviet style policing.

Do you not think you're being slightly over-dramatic there?


I'm sure you'll agree that if someone is genuinely speeding, they deserve their punishment? Or is speeding just a minor crime and the best thing to do is squirm your way out of it?

RainyDay

Bond-007 wrote:

As was pointed out it is up the public to keep them honest. It they are enforcing bad law, then they need to be told. Bad laws need fixing.

Thats the way its headed:( No way to question their tactics or challenge their evidence. Real soviet style policing.

As a general principle, yes - bad laws do need fixing. But speeding in Ireland is a very long way away from excessive enforcement of bad law. There is an incredibly lax attitude to law-breaking on the roads here. We need much, much more enforcement if we are ever going to stop the carnage on the roads. The Gardai don't need to make up evidence - there are plenty of real speeders out there for them to catch.

test999

Bond-007 wrote:

Thats the way its headed:( No way to question their tactics or challenge their evidence. Real soviet style policing.

That's a good point, I wonder how many people on boards will realise that, or will they childishly accuse you of being crazy? silly? dramatic?
....and all because they have a bit of growing up to do...

Where is the element of deterrent in Irish policing? is it just punishment?????

do any of you honestly think it's 'perfectly normal' for policemen to be hiding behind trees, bus-shelters, lampposts; trying to catch people doing 40 in a 30 on a *very* straight stretch of road? (a road that has never had a speed related accident)

Wake up.

Victor_Meldrew

Where is the element of deterrent in Irish policing? is it just punishment?????

The punishment is a deterrent. Or at least it's meant to be, when people aren't trying to devise ways of getting round the fact that they've broken the law.

do any of you honestly think it's 'perfectly normal' for policemen to be hiding behind trees, bus-shelters, lampposts; trying to catch people doing 40 in a 30 on a *very* straight stretch of road? (a road that has never had a speed related accident)

Doesn't make a difference - the speed limit is there, regardless of whether or not we agree with it. The Gardai don't create the speed limits, they just enforce them. If it's clearly signposted that it's a 30mph limit, then you don't go over 30, simple as that. Or at least when you do and get caught, you don't whinge about the Gardai, but about the people who put the law there in the first place.

If the Gardai don't hide, you have a situation where everybody knows where they are, slows down whilst passing them and then speeds up again - ridiculous.

test999

punishment is NOT a deterrent

highly visible squad cars are a detterent.

Where exactly is the deterrent for someone who is speeding down the M50, just a few other cars and no cameras...and then he or she passes a unmarked squad car. There is no detterent; squad car pursues, you get fined/arrested, and then punished.

The rest of the civilised world get's the deterrent thing, why don't ....?

secret_squirrel

Victor_Meldrew wrote:

The Gardai don't create the speed limits, they just enforce them.

And what checks and balances are in place to keep them honest whilst they do that? The fact is they are human too and likely to make a mistake at some point or even deliberately go out knowing their guns arent calibrated properly. The fact is they need to be kept on their toes and make sure they follow the correct procedures. Challenging a speeding conviction is one way of making sure they do that.

I pity anyone who is naive enough to believe that our law enforcers are any more or less human than the rest of us.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes??

Victor_Meldrew

test999 wrote:

punishment is NOT a deterrent

highly visible squad cars are a detterent.

Where exactly is the deterrent for someone who is speeding down the M50, just a few other cars and no cameras...and then he or she passes a unmarked squad car. There is no detterent; squad car pursues, you get fined/arrested, and then punished.

The rest of the civilised world get's the deterrent thing, why don't ....?

Yeah, let's imagine I'm driving through a 30 zone, doing 50mph and I see a 'highly visable squad car'. I slam on the brakes and do the required 30mph until I'm safely past them.

Alternatively, in a system where the guards could be hiding sneakily in the bushes, I have to watch my speed everywhere, rather than just whilst passing them.

And what checks and balances are in place to keep them honest whilst they do that?

Certainly, if you feel you've been wronged and accused of speeding when you haven't been, challenge it. Keep them honest. However, if you've been knowingly speeding, you deserve the punishment, regardless of how the gardai went about catching you.

test999

you'd rather live in a police state, where they can wire tap your phones too? without you knowing it? just to be on the safe side like.

By the way, police hiding in bushes or behind lamp posts is an invasion of privacy and under EU law, the police are not allowed to setup speed traps. All speed traps must be sign posted.

And do you honestly think it's okay to have a assways system, where you get four but ifyou pay the fine you get two points?
WTF? that's like crazy man.

How about, speeding, caught by laser, cop proves it's calibrated by a standards lab within the last two weeks (this is required, let's face it the boys in blue are not professional and cannot be trusted to operate any equipment safely, including batons), if the cop can't show a cert from a standards lab, he cannot prosecute you as even he cannot be certain his equipment

is working right.

Be reasonable, see my view point and agree with me.

This might help....

Ask yourself why other coutries do it this way, and why Ireland doesn't.

Victor_Meldrew

By the way, police hiding in bushes or behind lamp posts is an invasion of privacy

In that case, they're also invading your privacy if they have a 'highly visable squad car' parked on the hard shoulder. It's a public road - you don't get privacy. Therefore, your phone-tapping analogy is about as reliable as your generalisations about the professionalism of the Gardai in general.

Be reasonable, see my view point and agree with me.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

RainyDay

secret_squirrel wrote:

The fact is they need to be kept on their toes and make sure they follow the correct procedures. Challenging a speeding conviction is one way of making sure they do that.

It is also one way to make sure that state resources (paid for by you & me) are tied up dealing with paperwork & technicalities so that chancers can get away with speeding. Personally, I'd prefer to have my taxes paying for Gardai out on the street enforcing the law than the lawyers & administrators chasing paper in the back rooms to deal with challenges.

test999 wrote:

And do you honestly think it's okay to have a assways system, where you get four but ifyou pay the fine you get two points?
WTF? that's like crazy man.

Given the kind of views quoted here, I'm absolutely delighted that there is a significant deterrent in place to put off chancers from appealing their fine/points and using up a pile of state resources in dealing with such claims.

Borzoi

RainyDay wrote:

Given the kind of views quoted here, I'm absolutely delighted ...........

........to close this before it becomes more pointless.