Buying in Germany

Gun Shy

Hello

I hope that you can provide me with information on the following.
Thinking of traveling to Germany to purchase a firearm (Sporting Handgun)

I will be in posession of an Irish Licence and a European Firearms Pass for the aforementioned firearm, along with the Section 7

My question is as follows
Will this be all that I require to take possession of the firearm and will it satisfy German Firearm Laws so as to enable me to travel back from Hamburg to Dublin.
Or
Is there anything else that I would require to ensure that I will be obeying German laws fully.
I will not be carrying any amunition on the flight and will be comploying with Airline policy and Irelands Customs etc.
Your Help or any information would be appreciated.

Sparks

Sent an email to Anschutz this morning to ask how they handle it normally, I'll pass on the reply when it arrives. Meanwhile...

From here:

5.3.2 To an EU member state (section 31 (1) of the Weapons Act)

German transfer licence required. The application for this licence should include proof that the person effecting the transfer is entitled to acquire and possess the item(s), i.e. has a German licence for possession or is statutorily exempt (see 5.3.1 above) and that the safe transport of the items is ensured (see below). The German transfer licence may only be issued upon presentation of the destination state's licence allowing the transfer of the weapon/ammunition into its territory. If the destination state does not issue such licences, official confirmation of this must be provided.

German transfer licences are only issued for specific, individual transfers – no blanket licences can be granted.

"Safe transport" means the transport of weapons or ammunition in a securely locked container, ensuring that they are not readily accessible or ready to fire. If the weapon is read*ily accessible during the journey (e.g. in the glove compartment of a car) or is ready to fire, then the weapon is not being merely transferred – it is being carried. Carrying firearms requires an additional licence. Carrying them without such a licence is a criminal offence.

The requirements for obtaining licences to carry and fire weapons, e.g. those brought into Germany from abroad for one's own private use, are set out in sections 8 and 9 below.

Supplementary note on purchasing weapons or ammunition in Germany

In line with section 5.3 above, persons resident abroad who want to buy a weapon or ammu*nition in Germany may only take possession of it in Germany and personally effect its trans*fer to their home country if they have a German licence for possession (Waffenbesitzkarte). Such a licence may in principle be issued to non-residents for the sole purpose of transferring a weapon from Germany to a third country, but it is no doubt simpler to commission a dealer in Germany to send the weapon or ammunition directly to the home address of the purchaser in the third country. The German transfer licence required for deliveries to other EU countries would then have to be applied for by the dealer.

The laws and regulations of the country into which the weapon is being transferred must be observed in all cases.

Zakalwe

Gun Shy wrote:

Thinking of traveling to Germany to purchase a firearm (Sporting Handgun)

What are you buying and where are you going to be shooting it?

Irishglockfan

www.oberlandarms.com
check out their EU ordering page.
Passport,
your firearms cert of home country authoriseing the possesion,
the EU form 21 or 23 for dealers.
its all there.

jaycee

Irishglockfan wrote:

www.oberlandarms.com
check out their EU ordering page.
Passport,
your firearms cert of home country authoriseing the possesion,
the EU form 21 or 23 for dealers.
its all there.

Excellent link and info...

But..! Is it just me ..or is it all in German without an option
to view an english version of the site ...?

Perhaps it is there and I'm being especially thick this evening.

civdef

the EU form 21 or 23 for dealers.

Would that be the same as an Article 7?

Anyone able to recommend a German or other EU dealer willing to correspond in English and conduct exports? Looking at prices, it seems guns can be had over there an awful lot cheaper.

Rovi

jaycee wrote:

Excellent link and info...

But..! Is it just me ..or is it all in German without an option
to view an english version of the site ...?

Perhaps it is there and I'm being especially thick this evening.

Far be it for me to comment on your density, but you could get Google to translate it-
http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en
Scroll down a bit to the 'Translate a web page:' section and drop the link into it.

Read gems like: " Cordially welcomes with upper country of arm!"
and: "The Oa-15 larva in Germany has itself within a yearly to the prominent Semiautomatons in Germany develops."
or even: "Look nevertheless simply times purely"

Wonderful stuff! Who says the Germans have no sense of humour???

Seriously though, it's a mad cool site with loads of good info (even without an English version), thanks for the link Irishglockfan.
.

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Sent an email to Anschutz this morning to ask how they handle it normally, I'll pass on the reply when it arrives.

Not the reply you would have hoped for though

Dear Sir,

after receiving your mail yesterday,
we have investigated with our authorities the
possibilities for you (or anyone else)
to come to Germany and buy sports weapons.

Regrettably this is not possible without some
extra documents which we do not expect to get
issued here at our end.

Our authorities have no knowledge of Irish
shooters not being able to receive sports
weapons by parcel or postal services.

The law we have to obey is, that we cannot hand
over a pistol/rifle to a person coming from a
member country of the EC. Even though you have
all the paperwork necessary for your purchase,
we would have to apply for a document saying
that you can carry this item on you on your way
to leave the country. As mentioned, our law is
clear in this matter and we do not expect to
get special treatment from our authorities.

Do you see a possibility to buy our weapons
over a dealer in Great Britain?

Sorry that we do not have a positive reply.

Kind regards,

Karin Booker
ahg-Anschuetz Handels GmbH

civdef

Our authorities have no knowledge of Irish
shooters not being able to receive sports
weapons by parcel or postal services.

What's this bit about? Nothin to stop you sending a firearm by post/parcel once the various requiremtns of the carrier are complied with and paperwork is in order.

jaycee

Our authorities have no knowledge of Irish
shooters not being able to receive sports
weapons by parcel or postal services.

So what are they suggesting ...?
Buy them on-line or by phone and get UPS to bring them in...?

Sparks

civdef wrote:

What's this bit about? Nothin to stop you sending a firearm by post/parcel once the various requiremtns of the carrier are complied with and paperwork is in order.

You sure? From reading the stuff about it, I was under the impression that within the EU, a dealer needed permission to send you a firearm but that if you collected it yourself, that didn't apply. (So when I wrote the email, I said we'd an Irish chap going to Germany to buy a firearm).

civdef

Sparks wrote:

You sure? From reading the stuff about it, I was under the impression that within the EU, a dealer needed permission to send you a firearm but that if you collected it yourself, that didn't apply. (So when I wrote the email, I said we'd an Irish chap going to Germany to buy a firearm).

If you collect it yourself, you'll need a temporary permit over there plus comply with whatever export controls they have in place, which seems more complicated to me than just getting the dealer to get export clearance themselves and send it to you.

Sparks

Yeah Civ, but don't dealers need import/export permits?

civdef

The German dealer will, but that shouldn't pose a major hassle for them. You still won't once it's sent to you directly.

Sparks

[burns]Excellent...[/burns]

oldzed

a carrier is going to need a copy of your import licence or he wont be able to clear customs with it , they also wont pick up without one , Folks after looking at all the german regs it even makes ours look straight forward , now another option you have is you could get a dealer to dealer transfer to the north and then pick up at the border with an article 7 , you would have to find one to do that for you but a friend of mine is bringing in a rifle that way at the moment .

I am looking at another handgun at the moment and to be honest the prices i am being quoted up north are only approx 40 euro dearer than the same gun in the frankonia catalogue , I would not bother looking elsewhere personally . now if anyone happens to be going to south africa , you can pick up a bargain there due to the tightening south african gun laws

les45

Zed is right ,although we think we are paying over the odds, a comparision with rrps in Germany makes for interesting,reading my first pistol was a H&K USP ELITE, I payed 1356.00 Euros in NI ,the same as rrp in Germany , if you intend to bring in a pistol or sa rifle into NI or the UK ,then only a Sec5 Dealer can transact such business ,there are 3 or 4 Section 5 Dealers in NI(that is according to one of the Sec 5 Dealers) and as Zed pointed out a Sec 7 will allow collection.

civdef

On the prices, I was thinking in terms of second-hand over in Germany. There are several German sites displaying products and prices, and they beat what I've been offered so far into a cocked hat.

Once you've included a copy of your Article 7 and the Firearms licence, customs would have no right to block import. I've exported firearms to Norway in the past, where a similar situation prevailed i.e. local licence/no import cert was all that Norwegian law required, and the carrier accepted it no problem.

Usual practice was the recipient would post/fax copies of their documents to the sender in order for them to receive an export permit, then include all documentation in an envelope on the side of the package.

Gun Shy

Thanks for all the help and informed feedback.

Just to let ye know have applied to the DoJ for an Importation Licence for two Pistols and have explained that I am hoping for an APPROVAL IN PRINCIPAL before I commit myself to purchasing the items as I am unable to provide serial nos without paying deposits on them.

I know the odds but I just want to get the reply in print I'll let ye all know how it pans out.

Looks like i'll be heading north

Irishglockfan

But..! Is it just me ..or is it all in German without an option
to view an english version of the site ...?

DOH!!! I should have mentioned that you should click on EU ORDERS or INTERNATIONAL ORDERS. That part is in English.BTW the Oberland crew speak exellent English,[albiet with a bavarian accent] as do most big german gun dealers.It is the second lingo over there.Just say you are calling from Ireland,we are only too well liked by the Germans,and they will be only too pleased to help
BTW PAWS OFF !!the AMT 45longslide and FN Hi power!!! I saw them first and have first dibs on them!
Dont waste your time with langauge translators on the net.It is "english as she is spoke" type garble.

Thinking about the Anshutz replies.
1] Either they are throwing up a smokescreen as to discourage folks from trying to buy wholesale at cost from the plant and want to just sell thru their dealers.
2]They have never dealt with a dealer to person sales/transfer in Ireland and are not too sure how to go about it and dont want the bother.The suggestion that the local authorthies have no concept or experiance in dealing with irish gun law seems to point that way.

3]It could be a LANDKREIS[trans ;regional ]law that is causing the problem.Remember Germany is a federal republic and each province or reigon are entitled to make their regional laws.This also applies to firearms and related.So what might apply in Bavaria in gunlaw may not apply in Hessen?.

I can do two things here; [1] if anyone wants to I can ring on their behalf and ask and discuss this in German with Anschutz or whomever.i am a native German speaker and will be able to pick up the nuances alot quicker as to what they actually need in paperwork.PM me privately if i can help on this.
[2] Ring Oberland and talk to them.Bavaria has THE Toughest gun laws in Germany,and oberland has dealt with them all to sell their rifles in each reigon.They also deal and sell with the USA,so they will be well up on transfer or liscense requirements within and outside the EU.

German gun laws when you sit down and actually read them are clear as crystal as to what you are allowed,can and cant do,what is legal and illegal,and what the definations are of various things.They make ours look like incoherent mutterings. it is only when burrocrats get involved do things go wrong as per usual anywhere in the world.

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

Thinking about the Anshutz replies.
1] Either they are throwing up a smokescreen as to discourage folks from trying to buy wholesale at cost from the plant and want to just sell thru their dealers.
2]They have never dealt with a dealer to person sales/transfer in Ireland and are not too sure how to go about it and dont want the bother.The suggestion that the local authorthies have no concept or experiance in dealing with irish gun law seems to point that way.

Way off base there Glock, I bought my two rifles direct from Anschutz and not only were they exceptionally friendly and helpful (they have perhaps the best reputation for after-sales service of any firearms manufacturer I've ever heard of), but they were quite happy to sell directly to me. However, I had the importation orders and so on, whereas now we're trying to buy without them. And german firearms law is rather detailed .

3]It could be a LANDKREIS[trans ;regional ]law that is causing the problem.Remember Germany is a federal republic and each province or reigon are entitled to make their regional laws.This also applies to firearms and related.So what might apply in Bavaria in gunlaw may not apply in Hessen?.

Entirely possible.

I can do two things here; [1] if anyone wants to I can ring on their behalf and ask and discuss this in German with Anschutz or whomever.i am a native German speaker and will be able to pick up the nuances alot quicker as to what they actually need in paperwork.PM me privately if i can help on this.
[2] Ring Oberland and talk to them.Bavaria has THE Toughest gun laws in Germany,and oberland has dealt with them all to sell their rifles in each reigon.They also deal and sell with the USA,so they will be well up on transfer or liscense requirements within and outside the EU.

Sounds like an excellent idea Glock, though 2 sounds like you'll learn more, faster.