Parliamentary Questions

Sparks

According to him, he's still awaiting an answer, and I've been asking him every week or two for a copy of it...

BornToKill

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I have been informed by the Garda Commissioner that an analysis completed 9 October 2008 shows the figures, by type, for licensed firearms to be:

TYPE|2007/08|2006/07|2005/06|2004/05|2003/04
Shotgun|177,455|174,832|171,916|173,556|170,236
Rifle|56,689|50,986|48,536|47,596|44,967
Crossbow|79|76|72|76|73
Pistol|1,551|1,125|751|289|1
Revolver|284|214|131|58|0
Other|62|54|43|34|27
Total|233,120|227,287|221,449|221,609|215,304

The firearms licensing year is from 1 August to 31 July of the following year. To additionally analyse the data by calibre would involve considerable Garda time and resources. I have already indicated my concern at the increase in the number of handguns being licensed and I have informed the house previously, a review of firearms legislation is being finalised at present in my Department.

fat-tony

Now what would be really interesting would be to see a comparative analysis of the number of shotguns, rifles and pistols licensed in 1971 - the last full year before the (ahem) Temporary Custody Order enacted in September 1972.

A percentage of the currently licensed handguns would be those released from their temporary custody between 1972 and the present time - so they are not all newly imported guns, and without an analysis of calibre (a considerable number of licences would be for .22 or for air pistols), how can the Minister make any value judgement on this "growth". Without some baseline, these growth figures are meaningless for pistols. According to the supplied stats, pistols and revolvers make up 0.78% of all licensed firearms - another meaningless statistic, unless you compare it with something else - so what's he going to compare it with?

Grizzly 45

Well if the Minister wants somthing to compare to;the Indo today had an article on illegal stuff seized this year.
886 Weapons in total
206 shotguns,
59 rifles,
293 pistols and airguns,28 revolvers,
49 stunguns,23 Xbows,6 CS cannisters,
79 replicas,
10 full auto weapons and 1 pengun.

So handguns seized this year is almost on par with the growth in numbers of liscensed handguns.Exterpolating of course how many airguns are lumped in with pistols is intresting,as they are seperate category of firearm.
So legal hand firearms went up by 426 Illegal by 321

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well if the Minister wants somthing to compare to;the Indo today had an article on illegal stuff seized this year.
886 Weapons in total
206 shotguns,
59 rifles,
293 pistols and airguns,28 revolvers,
49 stunguns,23 Xbows,6 CS cannisters,
79 replicas,
10 full auto weapons and 1 pengun.

Not to mention an african spear taken at dublin airport (I know the customs rules on things like shampoo and stuff in carry-on luggage are a bit silly, but seriously - you want to take a spear onboard? Hello?):

Figures obtained by the Irish Independent reveal that 36 guns of 11 different types, including eight Berettas, four air rifles, four pellet guns, two air guns, a sporting rifle, an air model pistol, a double-barrel gun and 15 shotguns were all seized at Dublin Airport in 2007 and 2008.

Eight knives, four daggers, three machetes, a sword, a samurai and an African spear were among the six kinds of blades discovered. Sixteen gas canisters, five stun guns, two knuckle dusters, a telescopic baton and a can of tear gas were also seized.

So handguns seized this year is almost on par with the growth in numbers of liscensed handguns.

To be honest, I wouldn't even mention the two in the same breath, but if you had to, you could point out that in a single operation this year (ie. one single raid over a weekend), the Gardai intercepted more fullbore pistols than all the pistols that have been licenced since '04 put together...

meathstevie

Sparks and Grizzly, thanks for rooting out the figures and providing a factually founded bit of perspective.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is with the spear article is it is soo crappily put together:mad:
Didnt know that Brettas were a firearm type not a brand.:rolleyes:

So what is he trying to say??4 air rifles,4 pellet rifles,2 air guns,a model air pistol.11 air powerd liscensable firearms? a softair pistol???The whole article is as inaccruate as it can get to somone who knows about firearms,and god alone knows what it reads as to Joe&Jane Sixpack.:rolleyes:

dresden8

Poking around the Oireachtas website it's quite unwieldy.

What date was the temporary custody order enacted? Any further info?

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

Poking around the Oireachtas website it's quite unwieldy.

If you're looking for laws, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ is what you want.

dresden8 wrote: »

What date was the temporary custody order enacted? Any further info?

2nd August 1972, all the guns to be surrendered had to be handed to Gardai by the 5th August 1972.

Here's the full text of the order: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1972/en/si/0187.html

fat-tony

Apologies - I put September 1972 in my posting. I think it was September, though, before the Gardai arrived to take Daddy's pistols away:eek:
I got 'em back in 2006

Our man in Havana

When did they start to again licence rifles over .22?

Grizzly 45

Around the mid 90s if my memory is right.

IRLConor

1993 if Michael McDowell is to be believed: http://www.irlgov.ie/debates-02/17Oct/Sect11.htm#135

BornToKill

*160. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of licensed firearms being held in each garda district in County Donegal. — Dinny McGinley.
[41743/08]

Sparks

From Tuesday:

27. To ask the Minister for Defence if any weapons handed in by members of the public under the Firearms (Dangerous Weapons) Order, 1972 are held in storage by the Defence Forces; if so when these were handed in; the number, nature and type of weapons and his plans for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Thomas Byrne. [42650/08]

*370. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if the Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 made on 12 February 2008 and due to come into operation on 1 May 2008, is in operation; if not, the reason for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Pat Rabbitte. [42670/08]

*371. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if Section 31 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, which inserts a new section 3A into the Firearms Act 1925, conferring on the Garda Commissioner power to issue guidelines in relation to the practical application and operation of the Firearms Acts, is in operation; if not, the reason for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Pat Rabbitte. [42671/08]

And from Wednesday:

95. To ask the Minister for Defence if any weapons handed in by members of the public under the Firearms (Dangerous Weapons) Order, 1972 are held in storage by the Defence Forces; if so when these were handed in; the number, nature and type of weapons and his plans for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Thomas Byrne. [42650/08]

Those will provide some interesting answers...

Sparks

Answers up:

Control of Firearms.
370. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if the Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 made on 12 February 2008 and due to come into operation on 1 May 2008, is in operation; if not, the reason for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

371. Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if section 31 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, which inserts a new section 3A into the Firearms Act 1925, conferring on the Garda Commissioner power to issue guidelines in relation to the practical application and operation of the Firearms Acts, is in operation; if not, the reason for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): The Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order – S.I. 21 of 2008 - came into effect on 1st May 2008. Since that date, any firearms dealer wishing to deal in restricted firearms has had to apply for and be granted an authorisation under section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006. That Order will also be relevant in the context of changes which I have announced in the firearms licensing regime which I will be bringing forward in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill due to be published in the coming weeks.

Section 31 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 (Issue of guidelines etc. by Commissioner) was commenced by S.I. No. 390 of 2006 (Criminal Justice Act 2006 (Commencement Order)) on 1st August 2006. It is intended that the Commissioner will issue guidelines in the context of the new licensing regime.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Answers up:

The Minister is mistaken, SI 390 did not commence Section 31

See attached.

rrpc

It's in the negative Bob, the sections listed aren't commenced

IRLConor

Bob, the way I read it, that section 3(a) of the SI goes like this:

Parts 1-8 are commenced except for the following:

• Part 2, Section 9, Paragraph c
• Part 2, Section 9, Paragraph d
• Part 5, Section 28
• Part 5, Section 30
• Part 5, Section 32
• Part 5, Section 33
• Part 5, Section 38
• Part 5, Section 40
• Part 5, Section 42
• Part 5, Section 57
• Part 5, Section 58
• Part 5, Section 59
• Part 5, Section 60
• Part 5, Section 61
• Part 5, Section 65

I had to add parentheses to the sentence to parse it more easily, it's a horrible piece of English.

BOBTHESHOOTER

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

The Minister is mistaken, SI 390 did not commence Section 31

See attached.

Thanks lads for pointing out my error, I only had a quick look at the SI for interest and I had to read it several times to see that it was commencment by exception.

Apologies to the minisiter for my error, who would have dreamed him capable of a mistake!

What it does highlight however is the serious lack of knowledge of the highest ranking Garda in the country with respect to current firearms legislation, in the Garda Commissioners statement earlier in the month he clearly indicated his inability to issue guidelines! God help us if the Commissioner does not know his legislation.

rrpc

I suppose that it's easier to make a list of un-commenced sections than commenced ones.

And yes it is strange that a piece of legislation is on the statute books for over two years and the most senior law enforcement officer in the land doesn't know it.

Having said that, the Firearms acts are so convoluted and many of the sections introduced by McDowell are so intertwined with each other causing a domino effect where one section can't be implemented because of infrastructural deficits, a bunch of others commenced or un-commenced can't be implemented either.

chem

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Apologies to the minisiter for my error, who would have dreamed him capable of a mistake!

What it does highlight however is the serious lack of knowledge of the highest ranking Garda in the country with respect to current firearms legislation, in the Garda Commissioners statement earlier in the month he clearly indicated his inability to issue guidelines! God help us if the Commissioner does not know his legislation.

Have a feeling this is where the line of questions are leading. Going to point out the holes in the ministers arguement for the ban. Also the question as to the numbers and types of firearms taken in, in the 70s. It should show, that there were about the same levels of handgun ownership as there is today. So no explosion of pistol ownership. Just a return to the numbers around in the 70s. Doesnt make me feel like the DOJ minister will backtrack any time soon. Faced with logic and facts doesent seem to make any difference to this government!

Sparks

Another answer up:

95. Deputy Thomas Byrne asked the Minister for Defence if any weapons handed in by members of the public under the Firearms (Dangerous Weapons) Order, 1972 are held in storage by the Defence Forces; if so when these were handed in; the number, nature and type of weapons and his plans for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42650/08]

Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): An Garda Síochána have the primary responsibility for law and order, including the protection of the internal security of the State. Among the roles assigned to the Defence Forces is the provision of aid to the civil power (meaning in practice to assist, when requested, an Garda Síochána), which duties include the protection and guarding of vital installations and the provision of certain security escorts.

Under the Firearms (Dangerous Weapons) Order, 1972, weapons were surrendered to An Garda Síochána. Some 5,000 weapons are held in storage by the Defence Forces in the Eastern, Southern and Western Brigades. The weapons are retained in optimum storage conditions and as such most of the weapons will be in a similar condition to when they were handed in originally. The weapons range in condition from almost beyond economic repair to pristine condition. Any future decisions regarding these weapons is a matter for my colleague the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Sparks

Odd that O'Dea didn't list the specifics of the firearms stored - 5,000 tells us nothing about how many rifles, shotguns and pistols are being held, and as a consequence, you can't tell how many of the 1,500 pistols handed in in '72 have been taken back by their owners since '04.

Grizzly 45

Think the trouble is;
How will folks claim them back?? 35 years later folks will have died,emigrated,lost any kind of paperwork to prove their claims,or will their next of kin still have any paperwork to chase this up?.Or intrest possibly in retriving them to use ,but sell off at market value??That would be intresting as where will they be able to sell them??

chem

I`ve also heard stories about items handed in at the time, not been there for people asking for it back! That might be a tricky one for the government! (if in anyways true)

fat-tony

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Think the trouble is;
How will folks claim them back?? 35 years later folks will have died,emigrated,lost any kind of paperwork to prove their claims,or will their next of kin still have any paperwork to chase this up?.Or intrest possibly in retriving them to use ,but sell off at market value??That would be intresting as where will they be able to sell them??

I got my late father's pistols back by contacting the Firearms Section in Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park. Just quoted name and address we were living when they were taken in in 1972. They located the pistols and I was able to inspect them. They were released to a firearms dealer once I produced my father's death certificate and probate details.

Grizzly 45

chem wrote: »

I`ve also heard stories about items handed in at the time, not been there for people asking for it back! That might be a tricky one for the government! (if in anyways true)

Heard somthing of the like,involving apprently a family of a famous polar explorer with Irish connections,his expedition firearm being handed in 72 and,the family wanting to sell it in the UK.Only to discover it went "missing" into somones personal collection who belonged to the body who was in charge of liscensing such things.:eek:.

meathstevie

If there's any truth in that story it should be sufficient grounds for demotion, a P45 without pension and a criminal investigation.

Sparks

Tuesday:

*267. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will introduce controls on the buying, use and selling of air soft rifles which are virtually indistinguishable in appearance from firearms, having regard to the fact that they are not subject to any laws; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Charles Flanagan. [43406/08]

*290. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will substantiate the threat to public safety posed by licensed firearms holders; the number of legally held hand guns that have been used in crime since 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Tom Sheahan. [43604/08]

That second one should be interesting...