Parliamentary Questions

dresden8

I wondered how long it would take FG to move onto Airsoft. They're really on a roll.

Way to miss the big issues guys.

Rew

Fair play to Tom Sheahan!!

Vegeta

Rew wrote: »

Fair play to Tom Sheahan!!

Aint that the truth.

Sparks

Answers up:

267. Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will introduce controls on the buying, use and selling of air soft rifles which are virtually indistinguishable in appearance from firearms, having regard to the fact that they are not subject to any laws; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43406/08]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I intend to introduce measures that will address the Deputy’s, and my own, concerns in relation to this matter in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which will be published in the coming weeks.

While I recognise that further measures are necessary, I should point out that the use of such equipment during the course of committing an offence carries with it heavy penalties.

280. Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of licensed handguns that have been reported stolen each year for the past five years. [43480/08]

281. Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of licensed handguns that have been used in criminal activity each year for the past five years. [43481/08]

290. Deputy Tom Sheahan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will substantiate the threat to public safety posed by licensed firearms holders; the number of legally held handguns that have been used in crime since 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43604/08]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I propose to take Questions Nos. 280, 281 and 290 together.

I understand from the Garda Authorities that records indicate that 27 handguns (to 14th November, 2008) have been stolen since 2005 - primarily during burglaries from dwelling houses. A further 1,236 other firearms were stolen during the same period, with a total of 373 recovered. I am further advised that stolen firearms are used in the course of the commission of other criminal offences but, because not all stolen firearms or firearms used in the commission of offences are recovered, it is not possible to say precisely how many formerly licensed handguns have been used in a criminal offence in the years 2003 to 2008.

As I have stated on a number of occasions I am concerned with the situation we now find ourselves in following the growth in the licensing of handguns over the past few years. We now have about 1,800 handguns licensed which was not as a result of a considered or deliberate public policy decision. I would have concerns about the suitability of a large number of these firearms for legitimate target shooting purposes and I am not going to permit the growth of a ’hand gun’ culture. It was against this background that I recently announced my proposals for reform in this area, which include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns and a strict regime for renewal of existing licenses, with limited exceptions made in relation to Olympic sports. These proposals will be reflected in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which I will be publishing in the coming weeks.

It is important to say that my proposals in relation to handguns will not impinge directly on the activities of the vast majority of licensed firearms holders. I recognise that those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding way and am anxious to have a well-regulated sector in which those interests can be successfully pursued, in cooperation with the relevant authorities.

Rovi

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern) wrote:

I understand from the Garda Authorities that records indicate that 27 handguns (to 14th November, 2008) have been stolen since 2005 - primarily during burglaries from dwelling houses.

Hmmm...
I wonder would someone ask the Minister how many of those 27 were stolen from the possession of private citizens, and how many from the custody/possession of those who are 'the only ones professional enough'?

Lemming

Sparks wrote: »

Answers up:

Cheers for that Sparks

RE: Airsoft wrote:

While I recognise that further measures are necessary, I should point out that the use of such equipment during the course of committing an offence carries with it heavy penalties.

Which has been the stated view of the IAA (Irish Airsoft Association), the Gardai, and the Airsoft community in general from the word go. If commissioned in a crime, it'll be treated like the RS equivalent.

RE stolen handguns wrote:

I understand from the Garda Authorities that records indicate that 27 handguns (to 14th November, 2008) have been stolen since 2005 - primarily during burglaries from dwelling houses. A further 1,236 other firearms were stolen during the same period, with a total of 373 recovered. I am further advised that stolen firearms are used in the course of the commission of other criminal offences but, because not all stolen firearms or firearms used in the commission of offences are recovered, it is not possible to say precisely how many formerly licensed handguns have been used in a criminal offence in the years 2003 to 2008.

I notice the lack of breakdown on what consitutes a handgun. Since they're playing the overexaggeration-game, the cynic in me will point out their wildly inflated figure of 1800 that lumps everything in together and that they then use the word "hand gun" as if to imply Glocks/Beretta/USP/Sig/etc.

Vegeta

Rovi wrote: »

Hmmm...
I wonder would someone ask the Minister how many of those 27 were stolen from the possession of private citizens, and how many from the custody/possession of those who are 'the only ones professional enough'?

Well it looks like Tom Sheahan is not afraid to ask that type of question? Should I e-mail him and ask him

Also has anyone done an got that 1236 figure independently as I think it is very suspect?

That means 421 are being stolen every year for the last 3 years, that's more than 1 a day. IS it really that bad??

chem

A break down of the type and Cal of every licenced handgun would be interesting alright. So would a breakdown of the type and Cal of the 27 stolen pistols and if any of them were Garda pistols????

And would the minister like to make a comment

Sparks

"Breakdown" questions never seem to get fully answered though. Might be better to put in a few seperate questions:

• How many handguns were stolen from Garda custody or Garda ownership since 2005?
• How many handguns went missing from Garda custody or Garda ownership since 2005?
• How many handguns were stolen from Defence Forces custody or Defence Forces ownership since 2005?
• How many handguns went missing from Defence Forces custody or Defence Forces ownership since 2005?
• Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are air pistols?
• Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are of .22 calibre?
• Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are starter pistols?
• Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are humane dispatch pistols?
• Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many were licenced to criminals in the Limerick area?

And so on...

G17

Sparks wrote: »

pistols?[*]Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are human dispatch pistols?[*]

I KNEW IT, another gang banger in disguise, sideways baseball cap no doubt!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Sparks

*sigh* A martry to the typos...

BornToKill

That's just so brilliant!

Saddlebags

"It is important to say that my proposals in relation to handguns will not impinge directly on the activities of the vast majority of licensed firearms holders. I recognise that those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding way and am anxious to have a well-regulated sector in which those interests can be successfully pursued, in cooperation with the relevant authorities."

Translation: Non pistol shooters are ok but pistol shooters are dodgy. Also, we do not want to antagonise a quarter million voters but pissing of 1800 scattered voters is acceptable.

BryanL

Well each of the 35 Foxhunting clubs will have one for humane dispatch, some would have more than one.

could we come up with a figure for people and pistols involved in airgun shooting?
Bryan

ditpaintball

I know we are at the bottom of the list in terms of importance in the firearms issue, but if there is a crack down on pistols, it may have an effect on paintball as well as some folk are being told by their local garda that they can license their marker as a pistol.... which is mad.

However going the pistol route for us still fails yo yield any one with a license.

fat-tony

Originally Posted by Sparks
Of the 1800 licenced handguns in Ireland, how many are human dispatch pistols?
[*]

Originally Posted By G17

I KNEW IT, another gang banger in disguise, sideways baseball cap no doubt!!!:D:D:D:D

Hey G17 - I think you're right. Another clandestine Cypress Hill member of the NTSA:D:D:D:D:D:D
Have to tighten up the admission rules - no backwards or even sideways caps :):)

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

Also has anyone done an got that 1236 figure independently as I think it is very suspect?

That means 421 are being stolen every year for the last 3 years, that's more than 1 a day. IS it really that bad??

Have a look at this post from 2007.

About half the stolen firearms are shotguns, but yes the figure is quite high but you have to take it in context with the overall numbers. The amount stolen per annum equates to less than 0.2% of the total number licensed.

It also appears that the numbers are falling. Increased security measures obviously have a part to play, but people need to be more responsible like not leaving firearms in an unattended vehicle, making sure they turn on their alarm when they leave the house and always carrying their safe keys with them.

Having a safe is essential in my mind, regardless of the firearms. If the vast majority of the stolen firearms are shotguns then shotgun owners need to start paying more attention to security.

I'd imagine a lot of the thefts are opportunistic, so if it's not readily visble or available then it won't be stolen.

Year|Rifles|Shotguns|Others|Total
2007*|67|17|67|151
2006|69|215|10|294
2005|84|27|89|200
2004|68|26|73|167
2003|99|346|18|463
2002|97|33|29|159
Totals|484|664|286|1434

*2007 figures were provisional and up to 16th October 2007.

chem

The category of “Other” includes Starting Pistols, Starting Revolvers, Stun Guns and similar guns

No mention of live handguns in this category?? Are we to believe its only this year that the 27 licenced handguns were stolen??

rrpc

chem wrote: »

The category of “Other” includes Starting Pistols, Starting Revolvers, Stun Guns and similar guns

No mention of live handguns in this category?? Are we to believe its only this year that the 27 licenced handguns were stolen??

I think that since the Minister was referring to the years from 2005 to now, he's talking about that period with regard to pistols as well.

sfakiaman

rrpc wrote: »

Have a look at this post from 2007.

About half the stolen firearms are shotguns, but yes the figure is quite high but you have to take it in context with the overall numbers. The amount stolen per annum equates to less than 0.2% of the total number licensed.

It also appears that the numbers are falling. Increased security measures obviously have a part to play, but people need to be more responsible like not leaving firearms in an unattended vehicle, making sure they turn on their alarm when they leave the house and always carrying their safe keys with them.

Having a safe is essential in my mind, regardless of the firearms. If the vast majority of the stolen firearms are shotguns then shotgun owners need to start paying more attention to security.

I'd imagine a lot of the thefts are opportunistic, so if it's not readily visble or available then it won't be stolen.

Year|Rifles|Shotguns|Others|Total
2007*|67|17|67|151
2006|69|215|10|294
2005|84|27|89|200
2004|68|26|73|167
2003|99|346|18|463
2002|97|33|29|159
Totals|484|664|286|1434

*2007 figures were provisional and up to 16th October 2007.

In light of Ahern's proposed ban on centrefire (non olympic) pistols it would be useful to know-

How many licenced centrefire pistols were stolen from private individuals (not Guards, Military, licenced carriers or licenced dealers)

What types of firearms are listed as "Other",ie, airguns, airsoft, humane killers, blank firing, de-activated, stage props etc.

Why the spike in shotgun thefts in 2003 and 2006.

Why the changes to the firearms legislation started under McDowall have still not been fully implemented two ministers for justice later.

How many centrefire pistols are actually licenced to the public at the moment (excluding humane killers etc).

We all know that Ahern is out to screw us for his own political ends and that he has no regard for the truth. But we need actual facts to beat him.

What was stolen under "other" in 2002 & 2003

Can these be obtained through the freedom of information act?

chem

rrpc wrote: »

I think that since the Minister was referring to the years from 2005 to now, he's talking about that period with regard to pistols as well.

I dont get it. Shotguns, rifles and others. Im sure if any live handguns were stolen they would get there own list in the table. No? And it would of been mentioned that others included live handguns.

Our man in Havana

Can these be obtained through the freedom of information act?

Yes, they can. It will cost you €15.

rrpc

chem wrote: »

I dont get it. Shotguns, rifles and others. Im sure if any live handguns were stolen they would get there own list in the table. No? And it would of been mentioned that others included live handguns.

It's to do with the way they're categorised in the pulse system. Remember that when Pulse was set up, there were no licensed pistols in the country so there was no category for them. The Other designation is usual in such circumstances where there is a raft of small numbers of items that can't be designated under the main headings but are too small in their own right to merit an individual designation.

Which is why they can only further categorise the 'other' firearms by painstakingly going through them all one by one and noting them down. Anyone who looked at the list of pistols by district that was posted here some time ago may have noticed that there were totalling errors in some of the districts. In fact there were also totalling errors when the district figures were consolidated up to divisional level.

Which is why a FOI request may be met with an "unable to comply" response.

Our man in Havana

Which is why a FOI request may be met with an "unable to comply" response.

That can be appealed up the food chain all the way to the information commissioner.

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote: »

That can be appealed up the food chain all the way to the information commissioner.

Would that appeal be likely to succeed were the refusal to be based on a disporportionate cost ground?

I'm not suggesting it should, just asking

Our man in Havana

Well that can be countered with the public interest ground.

OzCam

(Airsofter here. Thanks for keeping us informed guys, we all stand or fall together. The relevant thread in Airsoft has been locked, I don't know why, but I wanted to comment on the AUG issue. Thanks for your time.)

As a citizen, voter and taxpayer, I have a question to the Minister for Defence:

Can the minister confirm that all of the Defence Force's rifles are accounted for, as expected;
that any recent newspaper articles to the contrary are baseless, scurrilous, sensationalist scaremongering;
that no competent Armourer or Quartermaster would ever take into, or issue from any armoury, any firearm without inspecting it, checking its breech, and recording its serial number;
that the time, energy and money wasted on a completely unnecessary audit of the Army's rifles would have been better spent on caring for it's soldiers and their families?


The Army is too professional to say all of the above.

Rew

OzCam wrote: »

(Airsofter here. Thanks for keeping us informed guys, we all stand or fall together. The relevant thread in Airsoft has been locked, I don't know why, but I wanted to comment on the AUG issue. Thanks for your time.)

As a citizen, voter and taxpayer, I have a question to the Minister for Defence:

Can the minister confirm that all of the Defence Force's rifles are accounted for, as expected;
that any recent newspaper articles to the contrary are baseless, scurrilous, sensationalist scaremongering;
that no competent Armourer or Quartermaster would ever take into, or issue from any armoury, any firearm without inspecting it, checking its breech, and recording its serial number;
that the time, energy and money wasted on a completely unnecessary audit of the Army's rifles would have been better spent on caring for it's soldiers and their families?


The Army is too professional to say all of the above.

That was done to death on Boards and other forums already

civdef

Remember that when Pulse was set up, there were no licensed pistols in the country so there was no category for them.

This isn't actually the case as I understand it, it had all sorts of categories for all sorts of firearms from the beginning

rrpc

civdef wrote: »

This isn't actually the case as I understand it, it had all sorts of categories for all sorts of firearms from the beginning

Maybe it's a report issue. The pistol lists certainly weren't taken from any database; the numbers don't add up: literally.