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Parliamentary Questions
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Thursday, 10 December 2009Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael) : To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if those who applied for a pistol licence before November 2008 and who meet the new licence criteria will be granted their licences in view of the Committee Stage debate on the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46393/09]
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael) : To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his policy and that of the Gardaí not to renew any centre-fire pistol licences; if not, the number that have been granted under the new firearm licensing legislation; the conditions a refusal would be expected for an active competition shooter, who is a member of an authorized range, has met the security requirements as laid down in S.I. 307/09 Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations 2009 and has held the firearm prior to 19 November 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46452/09]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail) : I propose to take Questions Nos. 111 and 116 together.
As the Deputy is aware, the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which was commenced on 1st August 2009, introduced changes to the procedures for the certification of firearms - including Restricted Firearms. The remaining sections of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006, relating to firearms licensing were also commenced on 1st August 2009 and introduced the distinction between a Firearm Certificate and a Restricted Firearm Certificate.
Applications for Restricted Firearm Certificates, whether they be for handguns, rifles or shotguns, must now be considered by a member of the Garda Síochána holding the rank of Chief Superintendent. I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that there is no policy to refuse to grant licences for centre-fire pistols. It is important to realise that under the new legislation, arising from both statutes referred to above, all applications for Firearm Certificates are regarded as new applications and not renewals.
The Deputy will recall that a person applying for a Firearm Certificate for target-shooting must now be a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club as laid down in the Firearms (Authorisation of Rifle or Pistol Clubs) Regulations, 2009 (S.I. 308 of 2009). In addition, persons who held a Firearm Certificate prior to 19th November 2008, for a firearm which now requires a Restricted Firearm Certificate, must satisfy the issuing authority that the firearm is the only weapon suitable for the purpose for which it is required. This requirement is in addition to satisfying the Chief Superintendent that the Applicant has good reason to possess, use and carry the firearm; is not disentitled to hold a firearm certificate under the Firearms Acts; and is not a danger to public safety or to the peace.
Furthermore, all firearm owners must also comply with the security requirements as laid down in S.I. 307 of 2009 Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations 2009. The minimum security standards required at a dwelling is dependent on the number and calibre(s) of firearms held by an individual. This requirement applies to owners of all firearms.
I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that there have been 87 Restricted Firearm Certificates issued in respect of short firearms, as of 7th December, 2009. Under the Firearms Acts, each application, restricted or otherwise, is adjudicated upon by the issuing person on its own individual merits and I have no role in the granting of these certificates.
It should be noted that section 15A of the Firearms Act 1925, as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 2006, provides that an appeal may be made to the District Court by a person aggrieved by a decision to refuse to grant or renew a firearm certificate.
(The highlighting is mine, btw).0 -
I wonder how many of the 87 Restricted Firearm Certificates issued in respect of short firearms are centrefire, and how many are .22's licenced as substitutes for centrefire firearms?:(0
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A percentage of .22 pistols are being licensed as restricted firearms so I would assume they comprise the majority of this number.
B'Man0 -
87 certificates for restricted firearms. Out of how many that were licenced this time last year ? I know of at least 3 restricted pistols that were licenced but under the condition that they were not to be used within the state. (So is the 87 really 84 or less ?)
What sort of logic says you can have a licence but cannot use it here ?0 -
87 certificates for restricted firearms. Out of how many that were licenced this time last year ?
'I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that there have been 87 Restricted Firearm Certificates issued in respect of short firearms, as of 7th December, 2009'
It says 87 licences for short firearms classed as restricted. Under the new laws all of those would have had to have been licenced pre-November 2008.You can't even apply for a certificate for a restricted short firearm unless you held a certificate for it before then.0 -
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Not true - Some .22 licenses are being issued as restricted -
you may not apply for a new restricted short firearm license - but you may be issued one.
B'Man0 -
Not true - Some .22 licenses are being issued as restricted -
you may not apply for a new restricted short firearm license - but you may be issued one.
B'Man
Not saying you're wrong B'man, but that just sounds ass about face (which of course would not be the first time in firearms licensing
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Are you saying that licences are being issued for short firearms that have not been licensed before? Or is it that the 'newness' refers to its restricted status?
Which is new for everyone btw as there was effectively no such thing in law as a restricted firearm before August 1st this year.0 -
Well, a six-shot .22lr revolver would need a restricted licence without being a centerfire pistol, wouldn't it?0
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No, but it's probably the answer at the end of it all
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I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that there is no policy to refuse to grant licences for centre-fire pistols. I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that there have been 87 Restricted Firearm Certificates issued in respect of short firearms, as of 7th December, 2009.
all pistol licenses extensions expired on the 31 Oct and to date 87 of the 1800 some of that 1800 would have been .22 and are now unrestricted.how many have been refused It is clear that there is a policy to refuse pre 18th of Nov centrefire pistols the figures speak for themselves wake up minister who do you think you are fooling0 -
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Actually, I asked the FPU about that one and they were rather adamant that they wouldn't accept plugging of cylinders and that if it had more than a 5 round capacity in the cylinder, it was restricted. Now, if that's changed since then...Not necessarily. It would depend on the legal definition of a magazine, and perhaps certain other parts.0 -
Sparks,
Have you a revolver?
B'Man0 -
Nope B'man, my pistol is single-shot only.0
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Jumping Jesus he asked my questions verbatim!
I know some will think it do not mean much but at least now there is:
A confirmation that we can renew centerfire pistols, that there is no policy to refuse them ( this is important considering the Judges comments in cork on the intent of the leglislation)
That once requirements are met there should be no issue
And most importantly I am not being treated fiarly because their are 87 people who are in the same boat as me got theirs, preceedant is important.
Its good to have a statement on the matter suggesting that we can relicience our pistols, that there is no policy to refuse outright and that there have been a number granted already.
The last battle now is to have 1500 recognised as a legitimate sport, considering the governing body here is affiliated to the governments national sports council I cant see how it couldnt be. .22 not allowed under the rules, it clearly demonstrates how an unrestriced firearm will not do instead!
A good solicitor should be able to make quite a bit out of this to refute a lot of arguements that may come up in court0 -
Tuesday, 23 February 2010Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael): Question 278: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the law governing the storage of a licensed firearm; if same is up to the discretion of a Garda District Inspector to determine if a person needs a gun safe for one fire arm; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8756/10]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail):
The minimum requirements for the secure accommodation of a firearm are laid down in the Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations (S.I. 307 of 2009). The S.I. sets out the relevant standard based on the number and type of firearms present.0 -
Tuesday, 2 March 2010Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
Question 294: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the fact that there have been three successful appeals to pistol licence refusals by Garda chief superintendents and that the judgments have all been similar in their findings; if, in view of this, he will issue guidelines to the Garda Commissioner to apply the law in accordance with these judgments; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10323/10]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail):
There have been a number of cases where appeals of licensing decisions of the kind referred to by the Deputy have been upheld, and indeed a number where they have not. In any event, I am advised that I cannot intervene in licensing decisions in the manner envisaged by the Deputy. Under the law, the Chief Superintendent is “persona designata” for the purposes of deciding whether or not to grant a firearm certificate.
Interesting to see the Minister's take on the question of whether or not his legislation has removed the persona designata status from Garda Superintendents... especially since it appears in a paragraph where he's saying the decision of the persona designata can be appealed, which I was fairly sure was contrary to the definition of the term...0 -
Tuesday, 23 March 2010Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
Question 426: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the requirement for firearm certificate applicants to secure general practitioner certificates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12385/10]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail):
The Deputy may be interested to know that Section 4 (3)(c) of the Firearms Act 1925, as inserted by Section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, provides that an applicant for a firearms certificate may be asked to give consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history, as further information, which may be required as part of the assessment of the application.
I can inform the Deputy that Annex B of the Commissioner’s Guidelines on the practical application and operation of the Firearms Acts, which are available on the Garda website, elaborate further on this matter.0 -
pure lazy, sure check it out your self on the tinter web, thats a great response to parlimentary questions. Anyone hear what happened in court in dundalk today, heard an appeal or appeals were lost, anyone any further info?0
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A very interesting exchange in the Dail on Mar25. It doesn't get into it for a while though, so I've left the preambling bits in gray:
Thursday, 25 March 2010James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Question 7: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of gun murders that took place in 2007; the number of these that have resulted in prosecutions; the number of these that have resulted in convictions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13157/10]
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Question 8: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of gun murders that took place in 2009; the number of these that have resulted in prosecutions; the number of these that have resulted in convictions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13149/10]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I am informed by the Garda authorities that in 2007 there were 18 murders involving a firearm recorded, in respect of three of which proceedings commenced. In 2009 there were 23 such murders recorded, in respect of eight of which proceedings commenced. I might add that up to 21 March this year, nine such murders have been recorded, in respect of four of which persons have been charged. No convictions have yet been recorded in respect of these murders but no significance can be attributed to that given the time period in question and the length of time which inevitably is taken for the judicial process to be completed.
It is important to emphasise that all of the cases in which proceedings have not yet been taken remain under active investigation. The detection rate for murders by its nature increases over time as Garda investigations progress. It is expected that the number of convictions obtained will also increase as Garda investigations are concluded and proceedings commenced are finalised by the courts.
I am, of course, deeply concerned about the incidence of gun murders and I deplore all such killings. All killings, regardless of the circumstances involved, are the subject of rigorous investigation by the Garda Síochána and will continue to be so. In setting the policing priorities for the Garda Síochána in 2010, I have asked the Commissioner to continue the focus of the force on serious crime and on organised crime in particular. This priority also is reflected in the Garda policing plan for this year and specific initiatives, including under Operation Anvil, have been introduced.
While the Garda Síochána has made significant progress in the investigation of a number of killings, there can be considerable difficulties for it in obtaining evidence pertaining to shootings which are the result of gangland activities from associates of a victim of a gangland killing or from gangland figures, even when they themselves are the victims of violence. It was against this background that I introduced greatly strengthened legislation in the area of gangland crime, which is being fully utilised by the Garda Síochána.
I have also introduced further significant legislative proposals, which are currently before the House, including the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Bill and the Criminal Procedure Bill and I will not hesitate to introduce further proposals if that becomes necessary.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Perhaps more than any other topic, this subject is a feature of questions to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. During the rushed passage through the Dáil last year of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Act and the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act containing the anti-gangland measures, the Minister promised action. Regrettably however, as the Minister has admitted and accepted today, not a single person has been convicted by the criminal courts or by the non-jury courts because not a single case has been taken since last year. Whenever a gangland murder takes place, as it invariably does at weekends, the Minister’s response is that he will meet the Garda Commissioner. The Minister should outline to the House, in so far as possible, what consequences arise from such meetings. Last year’s response was legislation, which clearly has not worked because legislation of itself will not be sufficient. While the aforementioned legislation was going through the House, the Minister was warned that legislation of itself would not be sufficient to deal with this problem. How does he intend to deal with the regular occurrence of gangland cold-blooded gun murders in this city, eight of which already have taken place this year?
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The Deputy is incorrect regarding the legislation passed by the Oireachtas in July 2009. I understand from the Garda Síochána that both the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, which pertained to the issue of gun culture and the licensing of guns and which also effected an increase in the penalties for knife crime and the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Act are being actively used. As for the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act, which was the major legislation pertaining to gangland crime, the Deputy may be aware, because it has entered the public domain, that a number of significant cases have come before the Director of Public Prosecutions who is independent and makes his decisions independently.
I note this law was contested as often as possible by outside interests. I acknowledge this was valid as people are entitled to make criticisms of legislation. In this case, a number of leading lawyers penned their name to a letter to make known their views on this legislation, albeit they were fewer in number than those lawyers who took the same action when the former Minister, Mr. McDowell, introduced a previous Bill in 2007. Obviously, the preparation of a Garda file in respect of such a matter takes a considerable amount of time. However, the Garda must be congratulated on its ability in this regard since the passage of this legislation. I know for a fact that in the run-up to the legislation, the Garda was well apprised of its possible implications and had done much preparatory work before the legislation was passed in anticipation of its passage. There were those in the House who stated that it should not pass before the summer but should be left over.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It did not make any difference.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Had it been left over, we would be far further from the use of that legislation.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
That is not true at all.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
This was the reason I sought its passage.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Hundreds of arrests were to have taken place in August. However, that did not happen. There was supposed to be a swoop.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Despite what Deputies Charles Flanagan or Rabbitte may have stated, at no stage did I or anyone on my behalf say anything of that same order.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
The Minister and Willie were going to round them up personally.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I always say that Deputy Rabbitte is something of a court jester in this House. However, if he is supposed to be a spokesperson on justice, he must at least try to understand that when one passes legislation, one cannot simply round people up thereafter. Even the Labour Party, which opposed the legislation tooth and nail, would not wish to have people rounded up immediately after the legislation was passed.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It has not happened anyway.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I criticise Deputy Flanagan because he is familiar with the procedure and what is the reality regarding the independence of the Garda Síochána in the prosecution of cases and the putting together of files. Once Members of the Oireachtas decide on policy and on legislation, it is up to the Garda Síochána and the Director of Public Prosecutions to implement it. The Oireachtas has given the Garda Síochána the power, in particular under the 2005 legislation, to act independently of the Minister or the Government. It is up to the force to bring forward files. Thankfully, I understand it has brought forward a number of significant files to the DPP, who I understand will make decisions in due course this regard. I can put it no further.
As for resources, the Government must be given some credit for having increased the budget for Operation Anvil and for the Criminal Assets Bureau this year, when every other heading in every other Department was decreased.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
I note that 800 gardaí retired last year, which is triple the number of the previous year. As the Minister referred to resources, how many of those 800 positions have been filled,?
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The number of gardaí is at a record high
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
That is not the question I asked. I did not ask the Minister that question.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
and stands at 14,000. Despite the retirement of a substantial number of gardaí, more gardaí are entering the force because of the Government’s round of recruitment to the Garda Síochána.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Inexperienced new recruits.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
How many retirees have been replaced?
[/b]Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail) [/b]
The Deputy should give the Government at least some credit for increasing the level of gardaí to a record high. Similarly, the resources available to the Garda are at record high, despite the constrained financial circumstances in which the country finds itself.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
The Minister has stated there were no convictions for the period he described. He cautioned Members not to read too much into that because the period is recent. However, according to the Minister’s own figures, the number of gun murders for the decade subsequent to 1998 was 182, while the number of convictions was 23. Is this not a crisis in our criminal justice system that cannot be diverted by any talk of legislation or of what the Opposition did or did not do? Is it not a cause of concern that there have been 23 convictions and 182 gun murders?
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The Garda does its absolute best to try to put a file together to convict people, but we live in a democracy. I speak for my party when I say that people are entitled to their innocence until they are proven guilty. It is often difficult to prove offences, particularly the commission of murder. People who might have been involved in those crimes have been convicted of other crimes and not necessarily the actual pulling of triggers.
Of course, we would like a 100% prosecution rate, but in no society will one get that level. I have full confidence in the Garda Síochána in its investigation of crimes. I must be careful in what I say, but four people have been charged and are before the courts in respect of the nine murders committed to date this year. Obviously, they are innocent until proven guilty, but the Garda has been active.
Despite what has been stated in a tongue-in-cheek fashion by people like the Deputies on the far side of the House about the most recent legislation passed by the Dáil, the legislation has helped the Garda Síochána. I hope the fruits of the legislation, in particular the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act, will be seen in the years to come.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
It is not a question of anyone expecting a 100% success rate. There is not even a 20% success rate. The Minister referred to what people like myself and the Opposition say, but this Opposition has been remarkably temperate and moderate in this criminal justice environment. I am in the House long enough to remember what went on while the Minister’s party was on this side of the House, a time when the situation was far less grave than it is now. Young gangsters are running around my part of Dublin shooting people because they do not like them. I accept the Minister’s comments to the effect that the Garda has an extremely difficult task on hand, but it must be a matter of concern that we have secured 23 convictions over a decade in which there have been 182 gun murders.
The Minister tries to keep his fingerprints off stories planted in the media, but he and Deputy O’Dea were responsible for putting abroad the view that, if we only signed the July legislation, it would not be back from Áras an Uachtaráin before a number of leaders of the criminal fraternity would be arraigned before the juryless courts. We have not had a single such case. The Minister referred to July of this year, but he meant July of last year because we have not reached July of this year. The Act was passed last July and we are now at the end of March, but there has not been a single case. The Minister is jibing at the Opposition, but we have been remarkably responsible and temperate in our response, given what is occurring on the streets of this city, other cities and towns.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
As I stated originally, even the victims of these types of crime, particularly those emanating from gangland crime, are sometimes unprepared to co-operate. This makes the conviction of those involved in crime more difficult and is one of the reasons the Government acted swiftly. It became clear to us after a number of serious events that removing the possibility and, as we were aware, the fact of witness and juror intimidation was necessary. Deputy Rabbitte’s party vehemently objected to this proposal. I disagreed with the Labour Party, which was entitled to object, but the provision was necessary.
As to the issue of people running around various estates, I was accused of introducing a rough gun regime. At no stage did I claim I was doing so to tackle gangland crime, although it was suggested that the legislation was a response to gangland crime. I introduced that regime on the basis of my firm belief that people did not desire widespread gun ownership, particularly hand gun ownership.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It is the illegal guns.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I was working on the basis of the strong advice I received from every garda with whom I spoke around the country, from ordinary gardaí in stations to the highest garda in the land, to the effect that going down the road of a legalised hand gun culture would be a slippery slope.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
That is a red herring.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I decided that a dual response on the basis of
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
There have been no murders with legally certified guns. The Minister has made a complete hash of it.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
The Minister without interruption, please.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Ask any superintendent about the firearms certificate application and he or she will tell one about how much of a shambles it is.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I assure the Deputy that
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
We will discuss it next week.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Allow the Minister to continue, please.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
It is not in a shambles.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It is a complete shambles.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
There has been a substantial reduction in the level of gun ownership as a result. That was one response.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Sporting guns are not involved in gangland killings and the Minister knows it.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The other response related to gangland crime. Another element of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act was not only the targeting of the person who pulled the trigger, seeing as how some old eejit was sent out on the mission more times than not, but the targeting of those behind the trigger, those who put the eejit up to it. Of everything the Oireachtas could have done, we decided to take the organisers of the murders off the streets. They need not necessarily be anywhere near the commission of an offence. I did not get great support from either side of the House. Fine Gael supported the provision, but it wanted me to leave the legislation until after the summer. I believed correctly that it was important
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It made no difference. Not one person was arrested during August or September.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
If we had waited to debate the Bill further during the summer and something had occurred
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It is a complete misrepresentation.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Had something occurred during the
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Something is occurring all of the time and the Government is doing nothing about it.
Barry Andrews (Minister of State with special responsibility for Children and Young People, Department of Health and Children; Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
The Deputy should control himself.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
The Minister without interruption.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
It is occurring every weekend.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Let me answer. The Deputy is interrupting me.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
The Minister is talking rubbish. It is why I am interrupting. He is provoking me.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Allow the Minister, please.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Had something occurred during the summer and we had delayed with the legislation, the Deputy would be the very one criticising me and doing his weekly PR
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
There have been nine murders this year already. Do not mind last summer.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The Deputy can put out as much PR as he likes, but I have the responsibility to act legally as regards the laws passed by this House.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
There have been poor results.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
We must move on to another Deputy. We have spent much time on this question.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
The question is in my name and I allowed my colleague to speak, but the Ceann Comhairle is allowing the Minister to talk over him. The question is in my name and I allowed my spokesperson to go ahead.
Séamus Kirk (Ceann Comhairle; Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Yes, and I will allow the Deputy in.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
The Minister has spoken at length. Some might interpret it as wittering on. In reality, there have been nine murders so far this year despite his legislation. Multiply that by four for the remainder of the year and we will end up with 36. Please God, that will not be the case. The Minister’s comments vis-À-vis how leaving the legislation over the summer would not have prevented deaths are clearly not correct. The legislation has not resulted in anyone being arrested in the intervening period, as my colleague stated.
Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister a direct question on the number of gardaí who have retired because of Government policy and their fear that their lump sums would be taxed. Experienced gardaí are leaving to be replaced by whom? How many of those vacancies have been filled? That was a direct question which the Minister should answer.
The people of Dublin North, in particular, are concerned by gun crime. Lead pipe bombs were found in Swords last week and there was recently a tiger kidnapping in Lusk. I had the unpleasant experience of having the body of an unfortunate victim of gangland activity being dumped on my land. People are concerned. They want to know what the Minister will do to aid the gardaí, who very often know who the culprits are but whose ability to prosecute is frustrated by the law.
As Deputy Rabbitte has said, our ability to prosecute successfully, at less than 20%, is appallingly low. Strengthening of legislation, which was supported by this side of the House, has had no effect. Murder levels have gone up.
Is the Minister saying that as a consequence of this legislation murders have, in fact, increased but gun ownership has gone down? That is not what the people of Ireland wanted. The people who enjoy their sporting guns, not one of which has been proved to have been involved in a criminal act, have been deprived of their sporting activity on the basis that reduced ownership of safe licensed guns is a great thing. However, it has not had the effect the people are concerned about.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
If anyone is whittering on it is Deputy Reilly because he is merely repeating what was said a couple of minutes ago. I sponsored the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill to ensure that we would not have a gun culture in this country. In such a culture guns would be available in houses where one might be used in haste in a domestic violence situation.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
This is all ifs and ands.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
In my view it was the correct legislation.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Reality. Reality.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I faced down the vested interests which Deputy Reilly and others are representing. Gun clubs and others want to have what they call practical shooting. This is, in effect, running around and shooting at moving targets. In my view and in the view of the Garda Síochána this is akin to replicating the incidents which are happening, unfortunately, in certain areas of the country where people are running around urban areas and shooting people.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
This is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the question.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
A complete red herring.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
I decided to bring in two elements of legislation
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Has a single person holding a legally held firearm been involved in one of these incidents? The Minister wants to rephrase the question and go off on a tangent.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
to deal with the gun culture that I saw was about to happen.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
That is his answer to the Irish people who are concerned about gun crime.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
A High Court judge clearly indicated that if the Oireachtas did not take some action in this regard we would have a gun culture. In view of Mr. Justice Peter Charlton’s judgment in a seminal case that the matter should be looked at, I introduced the legislation.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
And the Minister made a complete hash of it. He should ask any superintendent of the Garda now.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Despite the fact that Deputy Flanagan’s posterior is sore from sitting on the fence on this issue, it is the right legislation.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
The legislation is inoperable now. The Minister’s backbenchers will tell him that.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
That legislation had nothing to do with the response of the Government to gangland crime. That was a matter for the criminal justice legislation.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
It had no effect either, according to the Minister’s answers.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Deputy Reilly is a doctor. I will not tell him how to do his job. He knows as little about the law as the chair in front of him.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
The Minister knows as little about logic as the chair in front of him.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The fact of the matter is that it takes a number of months for the Garda to put a case together.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
It is very clear to me that we have had nine gun murders in the first quarter of this year despite his wonderful legislation.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
If Deputy Reilly does not know that he is stupid.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Extraordinary arrogance of a type the House has not seen for many years.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
The only one accusing the Minister of bringing in tough law is himself. No one on this side of the House is objecting to it.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Deputy Rabbitte did.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
We are just pointing out that he made mistakes. He has made mistakes and errors of judgment. He came in with Deputy Willie O’Dea, who sniped at me from under his moustache like a pet hamster in a bathroom squinting over the toilet brush. The Minister and Deputy O’Dea, between them, were going to round up these guys before the end of July.
The Minister asked what would have happened over the summer if he had not passed the legislation? Where was he during the summer? Did he see what happened during the summer anyway? Did he see the gangland murders that took place over the summer, autumn, winter and spring?
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Three in his own town.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
For all this tough law we are not able to deal with gangland crime. What can the Minister do to ensure better enforcement and better equipment of the Garda Síochána to deal with a phenomenon that is causing widespread concern among ordinary law abiding citizens who are becoming enmeshed in what is going on in the drug dealing communities in this and other cities?
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
Deputy Rabbitte is always good with his words but action is better than words. The actions the Government and I, as Minister, took was to increase the budget to deal with organised crime. Funding of Operation Anvil has increased from €20 million to €21 million per year. Resources for the Criminal Assets Bureau have gone up by 15% year on year, despite the fact that other Votes have gone down. The level of the Garda Síochána is at an all-time high at 14,500.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
The Minister did not even fill the vacancies and his results are a failure.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The number of gardaí dedicated to fighting organised crime has gone up to a record high. We also have passed significant legislation. Deputy Rabbitte’s party opposed that legislation.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
They are even gunning them down in the Minister’s own town.
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)
The Deputy need not say I am criticising myself. He criticised me time and time again. Criminal legislation is not retrospective. If it had been left until September it could not have been applied to anything that happened over the summer. That is why we brought it in sooner rather than later. I am proud we did. I have no doubt in the coming months and years that the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act will be used extensively by the Garda Síochána.0 -
but we live in a democracy. I speak for my party when I say that people are entitled to their innocence until they are proven guilty.
to deal with the gun culture that I saw was about to happen.
talking about double speak:rolleyes:
I faced down the vested interests which Deputy Reilly and others are representing. Gun clubs and others want to have what they call practical shooting. This is, in effect, running around and shooting at moving targets. In my view and in the view of the Garda Síochána this is akin to replicating the incidents which are happening, unfortunately, in certain areas of the country where people are running around urban areas and shooting people
why isnt there a smiley for a wxxker. looking at what was said above we all guilty till proven innocent0 -
ahern stated that the recent cj (mp) act had absolutely nothing to do with gun crime and gangland ireland , and right in the middle of a debate about it he states that the ban was about reducing murders !
his rant about practical pistol (again) is ridiculous and he seems to be grasping at straws.
can't wait to see the back of him and the rest of his lot out of power hopefully forever .
is there anywhere online this debate can be see ?0 -
Oireachtais.ie0
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I saw part of that on Oireachtas report on Thursday night.
Ahern is some arrogant tool.0 -
Ahern is some arrogant tool.
Yes he is.
We as sports shooters complain and with justification,
when politicians make false claims and statements about our sport,
regardless of your own political preferences, any politician from any party,
that speaks in favour of sports shooters,
should be commended for doing so,
Deputies Flanagan and Reilly spoke in favour of sports shooters,
in this exchange in the Dail with the Minister for Justice do not let it go unnoticed.
Contact both Deputies in individual E-mails and thank them for their support!
charles.flanagan@oir.ie
james.reilly@finegael.ie
Dvs.0 -
Apologies if this is up somewhere else;
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
I thank the Ceann Comhairle’s office for allowing me raise this matter, namely, the unsatisfactory operation of the requirements for the issue of firearms certificates under the recently amended legislation which has resulted in widespread confusion, uncertainty, dissatisfaction and the need for a review.
A number of specific issues require attention. I refer in the first instance to section 3D of the Firearms Act 1925, as inserted by the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which specifically refers to the short firearm for which applicants are making their application for review; this application can be accepted once the person has held the firearm on or before 19 November 2008. This is being interpreted by Garda superintendents in a way that is giving rise to an element of uncertainty. It is up to many applicants to proceed to court in a way that, to my mind, was not envisaged and which is unfair
I make the case that the new firearms legislation is flawed because it fails to include the statutory requirement for superintendents to provide a licence to hunt. There have been complaints from many firearms owners about the new application form which is nine pages long. Many applicants require assistance with this, which on occasion is not forthcoming.
The hunting endorsement on the firearms licence must be legally valid. The licence-holder must make a declaration under section 29 of the Wildlife Act 1976, as amended. Without this, new licences may be rendered invalid. There is no reference to this declaration or to this section on the revised form issued from the Garda Síochána, having been approved by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Garda Síochána is, by and large, co-operative but the process is giving rise to much uncertainty. There is a perception, supported by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that legally held firearms are inextricably linked to criminal activity and organised crime when Government representatives speak of a proliferation of guns and a gun culture. This is without foundation, in my view. I ask that evidence be provided by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, as to abuse of firearms licences and to provide evidence where sportsmen, many of whom have engaged in what was regarded as a lawful sporting pursuit and activity, are involved in criminal activity and organised crime. We need to have this matter addressed. The new application is flawed on the basis that, unlike the old form, it does not comply with section 29(1) of the Wildlife Act. I ask the Minister to advise the House on the discussions that took place between the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the redrafting of the form. I ask that the guidelines issued to superintendents be published and made available to applicants. I would regard it as a breach of natural justice if they are not made available because it would result in a most unsatisfactory and opaque situation whereby people are asked to comply with guidelines which have not been published.
Long-standing firearms licence holders are being required to produce references in a way that is unduly harsh and unfair. The system is a shambles. Many applicants are being forced to the courts and the District Court is being flooded by appeals against refusals by chief superintendents to grant firearms licences.
I urge the Government to accept the seriousness of the problem, undertake a review in order to ensure those applicants who have held firearms certificates for many years can continue to pursue their sporting activity within the law and deal with the gross mistake of refusing to make reference to the appropriate declaration under the Wildlife Acts, which in my view puts every hunter in the country in breach of the law.
Pat Carey (Minister, Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs; Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
I am taking this Adjournment matter on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
As Deputy Charles Flanagan will appreciate, that Department is at present in the course of a major transformation of the firearms licensing system. It has brought into operation long overdue changes, such as the requirement for referees, provision for background medical checks and standards for the safe keeping of guns in the home for all firearms licence applicants. At the same time, it has given effect to the major policy changes which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform announced in November 2008, particularly in regard to a handgun ban. The Minister does not pretend that a such major transformation can take place without glitches but he would caution against people characterising the system as being in difficulty when in reality they simply do not accept the decisions which have been made on their applications.
The changes required enormous work and effort behind the scenes both on the legislative side and from the point of view of information technology design and infrastructure, outsourcing of fee collection and production and publication of guidelines. The Department is in effect moving from a regime designed in 1925 to a 2009 licensing system which reflects modern conditions. The new three year licence with outsourced fee collection and licence production will result in a better service to the public and substantial administrative savings to the Garda Síochána. The objective is a careful consideration of each firearms licensing application in accordance with the law.
The Garda Commissioner has produced substantial guidelines to facilitate applicants and these are available on the Garda website along with the application forms and a host of other useful information for licensed firearms owners. The firearms policy unit in Garda headquarters, which was established by the Commissioner in 2008, has done excellent work in ensuring that advice and guidance are available to gardaí on the ground as well as to the shooting associations.
The logistics of moving from one to three year certificates were complicated and to make the changeover work the Commissioner extended existing certificates without charge by between one and ten months. The longest of the extended one year firearm certificates are due to expire on 30 June 2010. The Garda authorities recently ran an advertisement in the national newspapers highlighting the fact all firearms owners who have not yet done so should apply for the new three year certificate if they wish to retain their firearm. The Minister understands that some people who had old guns lying around for years and licensed them annually because it was the easiest thing to do may now be inclined to scrap their firearms rather than meet the requirements of the new more stringent system. Some of these firearms were in such poor condition that they would have been unsafe to fire and it is no bad thing to send them for scrappage. The Minister is not exaggerating when he says that some of the old guns handed in for disposal were held together more by duct tape than by wood and metal.
Due to this response and the restrictions which the Minister has introduced, we can expect to see a drop in the overall number of licensed firearms in the country. Garda statistics show that almost 100,000 applications are on the system, 81,000 certificates have already been granted and the number of refusals stands at approximately 550. A number of appeals are being pursued in the District Court, as provided for by section 15A of the Firearms Act 1925, but I do not propose to comment in detail on these other than to say they represent a small percentage of the overall number of applications for the new three year licence. Some appeals have been successful but others have not. Our law provides for such an appeal system and it would be disingenuous to characterise a variety of judicial decisions as confusing.
The transition phase will be completed in three months time, at which point we will have a better and safer system in which both firearm owners and members of the Garda Síochána are free from the frenzied renewal of certificates every August. Every licensed firearm will be required to be securely stored when not in use. Firearms holders need only to renew every three years and can pay for their certificates at post offices, over the telephone or via the Internet. The system will have much greater transparency and the process for obtaining or renewing a firearms certificate will be clear to prospective applicants.
The Minister took on board the Deputy’s suggestion that the legislation should include a provision that the Garda Commissioner submit an annual review of the operation of the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2009 and the Minister shall lay a copy of it before the Oireachtas. It makes sense that we would wait a few months for the completion of the transition phase before taking the opportunity to review the process in the autumn.0 -
Tuesday, 1 June 2010Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Question 294: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason law abiding citizens who wish to target shoot and meet all the requirements of the new legally held firearm legislation are being refused permits; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that this results in private court cases being instigated and with costs being won by the successful appellants which is being borne by the taxpayer and also ties up court time; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22769/10]
Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail):
As the Deputy is aware, the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which was commenced last August introduced changes to the procedures for the certification of firearms. The remaining sections of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 relating to firearms licensing were also commenced at that time. It is important to realise that under the new legislation, arising from both statutes, which created the three year licence and placed additional requirements on applicants, that all applications for Firearm Certificates are regarded as new applications and not renewals.
Since 19 November 2008, large calibre handguns have been generally banned. However, persons who already held certificates for large calibre handguns were entitled to apply for a new certificate under the stricter licensing regime. As the Deputy may be aware, provision is made under the Firearms Acts, as amended, including the provisions of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2009 that, before granting a Firearm Certificate to any person, a Superintendent or a Chief Superintendent, as the case may be, shall be satisfied that an applicant :- has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for, and
- can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace, and
- is not a person declared to be disentitled to hold a firearms certificate under the Firearms Acts.
These three conditions must be satisfied in respect of every application, thereby ensuring that Firearm Certificates are granted to responsible persons. Additionally, a Chief Superintendent, when considering an application for a Restricted Firearm Certificate, must be satisfied that the applicant has ‘demonstrated that the firearm is the only weapon suitable for the purpose for which it is required’. The licensing of firearms is an operational matter and each application is judged on its own individual merits and the decision on whether, or not, to grant a Firearm Certificate rests solely with the issuing person. The decision of the issuing person cannot be fettered in any way and I have no role in the matter.
Where an issuing person refuses an application for a firearms certificate the reason for such refusal shall be communicated to the applicant, in writing, within three months of the valid application being received. Applicants, who have been refused and are dissatisfied with the decision of an issuing person, have recourse to appeal that decision, within 30 days, to the District Court, in accordance with the provisions of section 43, Criminal Justice Act, 2006 and in some cases the District Court may award an applicant his costs.
The Garda Authorities have informed me that, since the introduction of the new licensing regime, there have been approx 450 Firearm Certificates granted for handguns to date. This figure includes both unrestricted and restricted categories but I do not have a precise breakdown at this time. I am also informed that a similar number of applications were refused. The Deputy may be aware that, in a recent composite judgment, the Supreme Court upheld the Charlton judgment which I have mentioned before in the House. It also fully endorsed the power of the Superintendent to impose conditions on licences. Of particular interest was that the Supreme Court held, that in assessing ’good reason’, that the “reason and the weapon were inseparable”, and that “ the Superintendent had power to refuse the firearms certificate in the case for the reason given, namely that he did not believe the firearm in question was a suitable weapon for target practice”.0 -
Blah,blah,blah,yada,yada,yada ,here is a written Dept comment like many others read by Min Aherne,as per usual when it comes to the firearms issue.Never has any stats to hand [unless it suits his POV].Might as well have a parrott sitting there as Dermot Aherne,because thats all you get from him ,parrott replies.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::mad:
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Yes, but the last two sentences are telling.0
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