[Article]Shoot 'em up games 'increase violence in society'

ixoy

From today's Indo:

[font=Verdana, Arial] VIDEO games which reward violence in players will contribute to a more violent society, a leading Irish psychologist has warned.

And games which award players points for killing people can, in the worst cases, provide ideas for angry, disturbed children, she has claimed.

"If nothing is done about this, children will be desensitised to the extent that they become unshockable," said Dr Marie Murray, Director of Psychology at St Vincent's Hospital, Dublin.

She warned that the general popularity of such games had become "a child protection issue" which the state had so far failed to address.

"People ask why there's such a disregard in Irish society. Well, what message are these games sending?" the clinical psychologist asked.

Dr Murray said manufacturers' claims that there was no link between such games and increased violence were drawn from studies using "unsound methodology".

"The clinical experience suggests that violent video games do have an effect on children. If children grow up playing games that reward violence, we are going to get a violent society," she said.

"Video game manufacturers spend millions on the imagery of an advertising campaign directed at children, yet they insist the imagery of a video game has no effect on children.

"Unlike films or television programmes, which are viewed passively, people who play such games are actively participating in the violent acts, heightening their impact," she said. "These games are aimed at the sole destruction of others," says Dr Murray. "They have no worthwhile purpose or rationale."

'Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas' is the current chart-topper in both the Game and HMV stores. Players earn points in the €60 game by shooting policemen, knocking down pedestrians, and picking up prostitutes. They have the option of becoming pimps.

In 'Manhunt', a game released earlier this year, players armed with crowbars and machetes are encouraged to kill their foes in a multitude of gruesome ways - the more gruesome, the more points.

The Columbine High School massacre brought widespread attention to violent video games. One of the favourite games of the Columbine killers was 'Doom' - used by the US military to train soldiers to kill.

Video games in Ireland and most of Europe are certified by the Pan-European Game Information (PEGI) but age classifications are merely guidelines.

While games manufacturers in Britain have recently met with the government to address the issue, no such action is planned here. And Dr Murray said manufacturers can not be counted on to solve the issue.

"There is an absolute refusal by manufacturers to address this problem and total irresponsibility in the way games are marketed," she said.

"The amount of time children spend playing video games is very worrying. A child's time is now more likely to be spent interacting with a machine rather than with peers or friends."

"Added to this is the amount of time spent by children not being active and spending less time playing traditional games involving physical activity and which help motor development."

"I believe that until a games manufacturer is successfully sued due to video game violence, this fascination with violent games in Ireland will continue," she added.

Firstly, in response to the lady, STFU or I'll stove your head in with this crowbar I found OR throw something at you with my gravity gun HOW DARE YOU


Now how about she offer proof rather than an opinion after sanctimoniously claiming that the manufacturer's case studies are flawed?


Any chance she'll bother to credit people with the ability to discern reality and fantasy?


Any chance she's not an igoramus by trying to suggest gamers are loners and never interactive - does she even know multiplayer exists?


Any chance she's ever played a game or talked to those who have? Sigh.


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jonnybadd

Very steriotypical media report, nothing new brought to the table, could be any negitive report that ive read in the last 2 years, also mentions that Doom was used as a game to train the US army to kill. Is this a fact?

Also the nine year old from finglas who stabbed his 16 year-old brother, how long d'you reckon it will be before they blame it on man theft auto or san andreas hunt???

DiscoStu

While games manufacturers in Britain have recently met with the government to address the issue, no such action is planned here. And Dr Murray said manufacturers can not be counted on to solve the issue.

"There is an absolute refusal by manufacturers to address this problem and total irresponsibility in the way games are marketed," she said

How did this ****e get through the editorial process? Oh wait, its the indo.

Jip

Anyone see Prime Time last night, it had a piece on this and I think she was the same doctor with the 'Down with this sort of stuff' attitude, plus it was fairly obvious none of them have played any of the games they were complaining aout.

roar_ie

I tend to ignore this kind of scare mongering, as that is all it is. All games are rated now by the manufacturers, most rated well. It is up to the parents/guardians to stop their children from buying and then playing the games if they are not suitable. Some responsiblity also goes to the retailer in this as well. The manufacturers can't do this for them. It is called responsible parenting. Parent's need to be educated on these things. It is the same for movies and television, if it isn't suitable you don't let your child watch it so if it is a game why are you letting them play it if it is not suitable?

mewso

Yes indeed the US Army were trained to kill demons by playing Doom. This due to rumours Osama Bin Laden had formed a rift in space opening the way to Hell using technology the US had sold and trained him to use.

Dogg Thang

Dr Marie Murray simply wants to see her name in print. So, lady, when this thread turns up in your daily google searches for your own name be aware that the first person those crazed desensitised kids will go for when they run rabid in the streets will be the person responsible for taking away their mind-altering devil games.

But good luck to you anyway. I'm sure you're very nice.

Dogg.

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Dont be at yourself

It's really hard to muster up the enthusiasm o rebuke those same old points time and time again. Video-games will always be blamed for the ills of young people until something else comes along. See also: rock music, video nasties.

mewso

I'm not much nothered by this idiot spouting the same crap we hear all the time. I'm much more irritated by the media's ability to deal with these stories without getting comments from someone with a differing opinion. Rambo for instance.

Crucifix

I've got to agree with NekkidBibleMan, everytime I hear this crap I rebuke it with less and less enthuasiasm, leaving out more and more key points.
Everytime I hear that Doom trains people in killing it conjurs an image of an army of soldiers who can be defeated by taking a higher vantage point, while they helpless fire forward, unable to aim up.

mayordenis

if we had a forum for all the actual damage done by games to society that would be a threadless forum . . . she knows nothing, i mean nothing, zero, zilch about what shes talking about.

Syth

I agree with her completly. Violent video games cause kids to become violent. I know most shops won't sell 18s games to kids, but kids are playing it, they are finding a way. So we should ban them. Clearly the current situation doesn't work.

I also think alchol should be be banned. 13 year olds should not be getting drunk. I know most offliceces won't sell alcolhol to kids, but kids are getting drunk, they are finding a way. So we should ban alcohol. Clearly the current situation doesn't work.

mr_angry

I think there's merit in the idea that children shouldn't repeatedly be exposed to violent imagery at a very young age. I agree that age limits should be enforced (if they can - thats another debate), but the idea that its all the manufacturer's fault and that 'Doom caused Columbine' is rediculous. Does she have any idea how many people actually played Doom? And how many went mad and killed people? Has it even occured to her that they might have been mad before they played Doom? Right enough - the scientific community should outlaw people like this, although she may have been paraphrased - the papers have a tendency to do this.

ixoy

mr_angry wrote:

although she may have been paraphrased - the papers have a tendency to do this.

True. She seems to be talking solely about FPS. Her saying [font=Verdana, Arial]"They have no worthwhile purpose or rationale." can be said of many many many pieces of entertainment.

Anyone think full on legal enforcement of game ratings is a good idea? It'd shut the gobs of ignorants for a bit.
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ShiverinEskimo

Yep, full on legal enforements of game ratings and proper education of parents - like the fiove categories printed on the back of videos detailing what to expect etc.
I don't like this scare mongering in newspapers aimed at older people - rather than encourage the parents to get involved in a sensible reasonable way they call for the total abandonment of video games. I mean she goes on about how they should be up running around instead of playing video games. hmm, its 4:52, its dark, and its cold and wet outside, most kids are at home getting dinner. and yet instead of tommy playing video games you want him to run around with his mates either in the cold and wet or trashing someones house..because of course, if you ban video games then they will never be tempted towards tv and dvd's again....

stevenmu

There may be a corrolation between video games and violence but only because of negligent parents letting playstations raise their kids. It's a parents job to teach their kids right from wrong, if they do it properly then video games won't have any impact on their kids because they'll realise it's just a game. If the game has any influence on the kid it's because the parent isn't doing their job right. This kind of article always really surprises me, no matter how often I see them. Do these people think that the government should be raising our kids ? Should we be force fed government policy from an early age to ensure we're all good honest citizens ?

uberpixie

musician wrote:

Yes indeed the US Army were trained to kill demons by playing Doom. This due to rumours Osama Bin Laden had formed a rift in space opening the way to Hell using technology the US had sold and trained him to use.

Well i remember a few years ago something in a mag somewhere about the us army/navy marines using a revamped version of doom with us army weapons and grenades with human enemies for training....

monument

Here you'll find a copy of Ian O'Doherty's artical It's up to parents to monitor what their children are doing; it's on a post of mine from the Violent Games to be Banned thread

There's still some hope for the Indo.

Wertz

monument wrote:

Here you'll find a copy of Ian O'Doherty's artical It's up to parents to monitor what their children are doing; it's on a post of mine from the Violent Games to be Banned thread

There's still some hope for the Indo.

I said it in Monument's thread and I'll say it again here, that Videogames are a form of media that also include the Cinema and Music industrys.
Now Both of those media are considered as art (strictly speaking) and art as we all know, immitates life, NOT the other way round.
There has ALWAYS been violence in society. We are animals living in heirarchical groups hence we are violent by nature. It's not something that just started happening since some dude invented Pong back in the 70's. There were still car-jackings and policemen still got murdered prior to that, as far as I know.

What this whole issue shoudl and does come down to is responsible parenting. I have to say that kids of a certain age are very impressionable and tend to do what they see. Mature games are made with the adult in mind NOT for 10-yr olds.
Simple solution here is strict enforcement of age ratings systems with threats of heavy fines or loss of liceense to sell 18 rated games.
If Game or HMV thought for one second that they were going to end up loosing large sums of money due to some kid buying Doom3 then that kid wouldn't be sold it.
If parents go out and buy the game for their underage child then it is THEY who are at fault and the finger of blame should point squarely at them. But as someone has said, too many parents simply don't know, care or understand what it is they're actually buying little Johnny for his Xmas stocking.

Sure, instead lets ban a multi-billion $ grossing worldwide industry and deprive hard working adults of a form of entertainment they've grown up with over the last 30 or so years without any apparent lasting ill-effects :rolleyes: ...

Stephen

:roll-****ing-eyes:

the_syco

If the parent buys GTA:SA for their 12 year old kid, and then think something is wrong with the game industry when the kid takes out a gun and starts shooting people, its the parents fault.

The game has an 18's cert for a reason.

Its violent.

Have yet to see an older person blame a game for going out and shooting someone.

BlitzKrieg

"Unlike films or television programmes, which are viewed passively, people who play such games are actively participating in the violent acts, heightening their impact," she said. "These games are aimed at the sole destruction of others," says Dr Murray. "They have no worthwhile purpose or rationale."

Funny? I just writing an assignment here on psychoanalysis in film and its the Lack of participation which hieghtens the impact in film so there seems to be a conflict here? (see theories by Metz, Freud and Lecainne) Film theorists argue that the lack of participation in films feeds desires and fetishes present in the subconcious and it is only by the dream like helplessness created by the cinema that these desirese are in anyway remotely satisfied.

Computer games though clearly have elements which stop these subconcious desires growing as strong. The surreal control system, the interface, and the lack of the *perceptual wealth* (esp in fps)

Now she is going to have to disprove every film theorist and most psychoanalyst theorist since Freud to prove her theory. Please i wait with anticipation.

*perceptual wealth = you as the audiance know more then anyone in the film, hence characters like the architect and Kaiser Sozie are unsettling because they know more then you.

Deadwing

I would have assumed the increase in violence in society was caused by the increase in violence in our society. :rolleyes:
Ffs dont these people have anything better to do? Christs sake, she gets paid for this bullsh!t? If thats the case im in the wrong profession, im gonna go gets me a phd and write useless twaddle about how sunshine and farts increases violence in our society.

monument

Is EVERYONE willing to put their (real) names to a letter to the Indo with the following?...

…or even an open letter (which can be sent out to all Ireland’s media)...

[Edit: actually, activism under one name, even if it’s temporary/once-off activism, would be a better idea]

+ a call for a more sensible debate on violent games
- computer/video games should be recognised as an art/entertainment form
- they are not all for children, not even all (non-computer) games are
- children are not the only ones to play games
- they are not all marketed at children
- (an acceptance that the age ratings are justified)
- parents need to be educated of the age rating system
- age rating system needs to be legally binding
- highlight some parents’ indifference to the contents of games when told by retail staff
- no link between violence and games (or just no consensus in the psychology community on the matter?).
- highlight the reason that court cases have been throwing out of court in the US
- media sensationalism… at one point ignoring the drugs side of a murder story to blame the more in vogue computer games – even after police said games had nothing to do with the case


…all just one big suggestion, activism anyone?

klap trap

maybe these games actually do increase violence in society.
if one child can be saved from the banning of GTA:SA then maybe that's what should be done

rainbow kirby

All I'm gonna say here is:

BlitzKrieg

klap trap wrote:

maybe these games actually do increase violence in society.
if one child can be saved from the banning of GTA:SA then maybe that's what should be done

But can you prove or even provide a half decent theory on how they increase violence.

The control over actions theory is B*LL as the participation someone has in a computer game is so unnatural that its ability to hieghten subconcious desires and fetishes are weak at most. Look at yourself when your playing a computer game. The actions you perform are nothing like the actions performed onscreen. Even then the barrier between whats on screen and reality is stronger in computer games then in any other media because of HUDS and life bars and all that vital knowledge one needs to play the game.

SantaHoe

I've "killed" countless thousands of computer generated enemies... seen the "blood" splatter all over the walls and watched gibbs fly... I've played these games for years.
I can watch horror movies no problem.
Yet..
I can't bare to watch open surgury on TV, if there's a road traffic accident - I don't want to see it, and I think if I'd seen the horrific beheading of one of those hostages in iraq, I'd puke and probably wouldn't sleep for days. :eek:
When I visit a hospitals A&E department, I'm nervous about what kind of horrible bloody injuries I'll see... I'm squeemish like that.
The difference is that I can distinguish between reality and fiction... enemies in games are nothing more to me than pieces on a chess board, eliminated for tactical gain within a game... real human suffering is far removed from any of this.
Replace them with shiney buzzing robots, it wouldn't bother me either way.

If someone's mentally defective enough to go out and mimic something they saw in a game, then they'd probably immitate something else anyway... you're either crazy enough to randomly murder someone or you're not (imo).
In the case of kids getting their hands on violent games, that's lazy parenting... and won't we be quick to pass the buck when little johnny hits his sister... couldn't possibly be from when he saw someone getting hit in Eastenders or even his old man hitting mammy a dig when he's staggered home drunk from the pub :rolleyes:

Players earn points in the €60 game by shooting policemen, knocking down pedestrians, and picking up prostitutes.

I think she's got this confused with Carmageddon... I tend to avoid 'knocking down pedestrians' since it raises your wanted rating, damages your car, and they only drop something like $20, which in GTA terms (as anyone who's played it will know) is piss.

I think it's just a case of wanna-bees jumping on the latest scapegoat, ignorantly hoping that it'll turn out to have some merit, then hoping to be hailed as a visionary of some sort.
What an opportunist muppet, try doing some research.

Deadwing

SantaHoe wrote:

I've "killed" countless thousands of computer generated enemies... seen the "blood" splatter all over the walls and watched gibbs fly... I've played these games for years.
I can watch horror movies no problem.
Yet..
I can't bare to watch open surgury on TV, if there's a road traffic accident - I don't want to see it, and I think if I'd seen the horrific beheading of one of those hostages in iraq, I'd puke and probably wouldn't sleep for days. :eek:

Well said, im the exact same. I gew up raised on a diet of horror films, by the age of 10 id seen the 'house' movies, amityville horror, zombie films by the barrelful, you name it. At age 12 i got my first 'proper' computer (i.e. something better than an atari 2600) and played stuff like pit fighter, street fighter, barbarian (all the most violent games of the day) and now ive played doom 3, manhunt, all the GTA's, basically the most violent games available, yet i still cant watch an episode of 'the operation' without feeling nauseous. If you ask me, its stuff like that thats 10times more upsetting or disturbing than anything you see in game.
And i for one would be willing to put my name to some sort of letter here if it would do anything to stop this kind of lazy, hack journalism. Because thats all it is, no evidence, no proof, just blame the easy target to get your name in print.

stevenmu

SantaHoe wrote:

If someone's mentally defective enough to go out and mimic something they saw in a game, then they'd probably immitate something else anyway...

Indeed, I seem to recall Wuthering Heights having some pretty strong violence in it and they made me read that. Not to mention shakespeare, that guy was sick.