Line Rental UTV talktime?

dub45

RicardoSmith wrote:

The usual method of dealing with that is to send an email or letter with all the details of the conversation with something like, please confirm that this is correct etc, or reply if there are any errors in this.

But that simply does not happen both to judge by own experience and reading of people's experiences on here.

There should be a code of conduct for online or phone signups which requires the company concerned to furnish a hard copy of the contract and any subsequet amendments to the customer.

dub45

dahamsta wrote:

I ordered it through the web and they didn't tell me. I wouldn't have ordered it if they had - I'm leaving this flat in six months - so I was keeping an eye out for it. No Ts&Cs, no mention of a term, no nothing.

adam

Did you not see the posts in the group about it? It is a T&C without being a T&C! Carl said that it was an omission! So you have the official T&C's and the omitted ones! The first I was aware of it was when a poster on here mentioned it.

The only reference I have ever seen to moving between the products on the UTV website was when it was introduced first and it was stated that there was no charge to upgrade but there was a charge to downgrade. I understand that the wholesale charge to downgrade is the princely sum of 15 euros.

It is outrageous that they should ask for a 12 month contract to move between the products.

They are getting worse by the day as far as I am concerned. Can you imagine the outcry if Eircom pulled a stunt like that?

dahamsta

dub45 wrote:

Did you not see the posts in the group about it? It is a T&C without being a T&C! Carl said that it was an omission! So you have the official T&C's and the omitted ones!

I rarely read newsgroups and then only through Google Groups, can you post the message/thread here or link to an archive if there is one please?

BTW, the same happened when I upgraded to Clicksilver Plus -- no Ts&Cs, no mention of a term extension, no nothing. Does anyone know if there were any Ts&Cs in this email I'm supposed to have been sent?

I'd like to see a copy of this upgrade email anyway out of curiousity, I'm seriously thinking of taking them to small claims court on this, since I have nothing to lose. I've thought very carefully about it and I don't think they've a leg to stand on.

I've written to Scott Taunton about this too, but I won't publish it on the web this time. Well, yet anyway.

adam

dahamsta

BTW, in response to defenders of UTV: I've been a defender and supporter of UTV for years, and I reckon dub45 there will testify to that, since I've gone up against him many a time on this very subject. If that's not enough, a Google for "dahamsta utv site:boards.ie" should turn up plenty of evidence.

I have limits though, and taking money out of my pocket is a primary candidate. Support is another -- I've advised people myself not to use their email support, but they've had plenty of time to fix it. If they haven't fixed it by now, I'd contend that they're as committed to correcting the issues as Esat are to correcting their horrendous billing system.

The issues I've had with my account for the past six months have annoyed me, but this has pushed me over the line. Enough.

adam

Paddy20

Dahamsta,

Re: Your signature, quote: " UTV are a shower of robbing bastards " Imho, you are the one that is going too far, as that statement is clearly [Libellous], and if I was Scott Taunton, you would be the one heading for Court, and a really heavy one, not your miserly threat of an action against UTV in the Small Claims Court.

Also remember that you are not dealing with UTV, you are dealing with U.TV which is a seperate legal entity Afaik !.

Believe it or not. I am actually trying to be fair and helpful to you , and I do sympathise with your complaint, but why you did not open a proper exclusive new thread for your off topic moan, is beyond me, and why the moderator's have not deleted your signature, is also beyond me

It's the dot that makes the difference, according to U.TV Broadbands latest advertising campaign which is currently running on UTV Television !.
P.

dub45

Paddy20 wrote:

Dahamsta,

Re: Your signature, quote: " UTV are a shower of robbing bastards " Imho, you are the one that is going too far, as that statement is clearly [Libellous], and if I was Scott Taunton, you would be the one heading for Court, and a really heavy one, not your miserly threat of an action against UTV in the Small Claims Court.

Also remember that you are not dealing with UTV, you are dealing with U.TV which is seperate legal entity Afaik !.

Believe it or not. I am actually trying to be fair and helpful to you , and I do sympathise with your complaint, but why you did not open a proper exclusive new thread for your off topic moan, is beyond me, and why the moderator's have not deleted your signature, is also beyond me

P.

And Paddy what about your own post above?

As for the line rental charge's changeover to U.TV ?..Imho, It has to be EirCoN's dirty trick's department once again.

given that UTV have admitted they are at fault do Eircom not deserve an apology from you?

Paddy20

Dub45,

No, because EirCoN/Eircom, have conned me in the past. I can prove it, and I would be more than happy if they would take me to Court for libel so that I could publicly expose them for what they have been and still are .

P.

RicardoSmith

dub45 wrote:

But that simply does not happen both to judge by own experience and reading of people's experiences on here.

There should be a code of conduct for online or phone signups which requires the company concerned to furnish a hard copy of the contract and any subsequet amendments to the customer.

Well I emailed all my queries to them via email and have them kept somewhere. I was wondering what has happened to the line rental for other people though.

RicardoSmith

Re: Your signature, quote: " UTV are a shower of robbing bastards".

Dahamsta why does that link to this thread anyway. Seems like an odd sig.

dub45

dahamsta wrote:

I rarely read newsgroups and then only through Google Groups, can you post the message/thread here or link to an archive if there is one please?

BTW, the same happened when I upgraded to Clicksilver Plus -- no Ts&Cs, no mention of a term extension, no nothing. Does anyone know if there were any Ts&Cs in this email I'm supposed to have been sent?

.......................
adam

I posted the following to the UTV support group on 1st November in response to a post on boards

I notice in a post on boards that the poster was apparently told that if he wanted to upgrade to Clicksilver plus mean a new 12 month contract. Is this the case and is it similar with a
downgrade and if so why?

UTV's reply:

UTV are charged to move customers between the BB tiers ... and moving users to a new 12 month contract helps to cover it, and also hopefully
detracts users from jumping around on a month-to-month basis as it
causes us an administrative nitemare

A poster responded:

According to the ADSL Bitstream Price List v1.8 (26/10/04), the cost to movefrom one tier to another is:

Upgrade - 0.00 EUR
Downgrade - 15.00 EUR

There would seem to be little justification for demanding a new 12-month
contract for a once-off Upgrade

there were various other points made - this was the UTV response regarding terms and conditions:

The product migration terms have only recently been made official within UTV. It was an omission from the T&C's, but that will be rectified soon.

I then asked:

`How legal is it to upgrade the T&C's retrospectively not to mention putting it very bluntly how HONEST is it?

UTV replied:

It was an omission. Customers enquired about migration from one tier to another and we've had to address it. Legally our T&C's have to
reflect the specific details of the product. If UTV Internet were to
launch another product option then this too would have to be added
into the T&C's. Seems logical to me.

I'll pass your concerns on to our product development team as this
thread highlights customer worries over the 12 month contract issue,
and I'm not sure this had been foreseen.

Anyway nobody else seemed particularly bothered by it either in the support group or on boards (I posted about it on here at the time). This 'cute hoorism' of trying to get people into further 12 month contracts is really annoying particularly as people are so much more mobile nowadays and getting tied in to such a contract is potentially quite costly. Incidentally there is a lot wrong with the UTV response as from day 1 of the introduction of the two levels it was clearly pointed out that movement between them was possible and that there was a charge for the movement downwards so to claim that they had to react to people inquiring about the movement is really stretching it once again.

And like yourself I was once a very big fan of UTV but they were never the same company after they introduced broadband and I think they get away with quite a lot of stuff simply because they are not Eircom!

dahamsta

Paddy20 is on my Ignore List, I didn't see his post until dub45 quoted it. I don't wish to get into a discussion with him, all I'll say is that if they consider it libellous, they should talk to their lawyers about it. I would be much happier if they simply refunded the money they took without my permission though.

Since I'll have to reframe my letter to Scott Taunton to take the information dub45 has provided (thanks for that) into account, I guess it would only be fair to take the holidays into consideration and edit my sig until he's had a chance to respond. I'll do that as soon as I've posted this, however I'll put it back if the money isn't refunded by January 7, and it'll stay there until I get the money, and my Clicksilver Plus and TalkTime orders are cancelled without penalty.

On this point, I may not be a lawyer, but I'm not stupid. As we all know, most Terms & Conditions these days have sections that allow companies to change the terms at any time, once people have been given notice. For the most part, I don't have a problem with this, but trying to retroactively apply a term extension - as appears to be happening here - is ridiculous and wouldn't stand up in any court in the land.

RicardoSmith, it doesn't point to this thread, it points to this post in particular.

adam

dub45

dahamsta wrote:

...........................

On this point, I may not be a lawyer, but I'm not stupid. As we all know, most Terms & Conditions these days have sections that allow companies to change the terms at any time, once people have been given notice. For the most part, I don't have a problem with this, but trying to retroactively apply a term extension - as appears to be happening here - is ridiculous and wouldn't stand up in any court in the land.

..........................................

adam

From UTV's current Clicksilver Terms and Conditions

22. VARIATION

UTV Internet reserves the right to vary the terms of this Agreement or the nature of the Service (where the technical specification of the Service is varied) at any time and UTV Internet will inform you of any such changes through e-mail, newsletter or such other medium, as UTV Internet considers appropriate not less than one month prior to the implementation of such variation.

Yes indeed but have you or anyone else for that matter:) ever since you joined UTV being advised in advance in any shape or form of a change in their Terms and Condtions?

And then there are the Terms and Conditions that we have to guess about the ones that are not in there yet (the omissions!) but that still apply like the 12 month requirement to migrate between Clicksilver products.

And even as you point out if no court in the land will honour it the fact is that anyone wishing to change between the products is snookered as presumably UTV will not facilitate any migration unless the customer commits to the 12 month contract extension!!!! :mad:

Paddy20

Oh, I am on Dahamsta's ignore list, hmmmmm and I have No One on mine.

Never mind eh, I forgive him.

It is Xmas after all