Suppressors - Legal ????

Terrier

My understanding is that a .22LR can have a silencer once your local Sergeant is aware of it??
What is the legality of high calibre rifles
1. Being threaded for a suppressor ?
2. Have a suppressor fitted ?

civdef

The legislation (Firearms & Offensive Weapons Act 1990) makes no mention of calibre. You need an authorisation from your local superintendent - not sergeant to possess a "silencer", these may be granted once you demonstrate a need for one, typically these include the need to avoid disturbing livestock when shooting or hearing protection, though a lot of it comes down to what the local superintendent accepts.

NOTE:

The act uses the phrase "silencer" but doesn't define it. Many Gardai including some of their ballistics experts - will tell you that there is no such thing as a "silencer" and that "sound moderators/suppressors" are't mentioned in legislation, but that's probably something a court would have to rule on, and I wouldn't like to find out the hard way.

A poorly written, unnecessarily restrictive piece of legislation introduced by that paragon of a Minister for Justice Ray Burke. How I'll laugh if he ends up in Mountjoy himself - what goes around comes around.

Terrier

Thanks

Rovi

I think(!!!) it's the same for high calibre stuff.
Certainly, many of them are threaded, and the suppressers are widely available.

According to the ‘people who know’ in my local gun shop though, it's a bit more complicated than just letting your local Sergeant/Super know you have one. Apparently, you’re supposed to 'get permission' for one, or get it added to the licence for the particular rifle, or something like that.
As with everything else in Irish firearms legislation, the details of how all this happens depends on who you know in the Garda station, and how well you know them.

IANAL, and the above advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!

.

Musashi

My understanding is that a "silencer" slows the bullet to subsonic levels and muffles the hot gases leaving the barrel.
A "suppressor" only muffles the gas and must be used with sub sonic ammo to work.It will not deaden the sonic boom of a supersoninc bullet.
I don't really get the legality or otherwise of them and I'm not sure why you'd use a full bore rifle and then suppress or silence it,losing a lot of the power you paid dear for! Not to mention the loss of trajectory,range and ft-lbs down range.

Terrier

So in theory, wouldn't a Gun Dealer have to see written permission before he could sell one?? :rolleyes:

Rovi

Terrier wrote:

So in theory, wouldn't a Gun Dealer have to see written permission before he could sell one?? :rolleyes:

In theory, yes!
.

Irishglockfan

My understanding is that a "silencer" slows the bullet to subsonic levels and muffles the hot gases leaving the barrel.
A "suppressor" only muffles the gas and must be used with sub sonic ammo to work.It will not deaden the sonic boom of a supersoninc bullet.

TOTALLY OFF THE MARK.
"Silencer" and "suppressor "are word games for the same thing. A Silencer[we will stick to one term for this point].In it's simplist description it either bleeds off the gas from the gunshot into various chambers and baffles[picture a car exhaust box],or absorbs it into some sort of sound deadning materials,or a combo of the two.The noise of your gunshot is the bullet basically breaking the sound barrier,with the noise being reflected off obstructions.So what you must do is bring the bullet back down below the sound barrier,hence the use of subsonic ammo for IDEAL effect.You can of course use normal ammo in a silencer and have it very quiet at the muzzle of your silencer,however the supersonic "crack" will still be there.A very good demo of this would be if you could fire a silenced rifle straight up using normal ammo.You will get a very dull THUD sound,as the bullet has no obstructions to pass.However if you could fire it straight down ,say a line of telephone poles,you will hear the crack distinctively as the bullet passes the poles.Note also that it is actually impossible to totally silence a firearm.You will get sonic crack with normal ammo,the noise of slide and bolt action on a semi auto weapon,if it will work with sub sonic ammo,[some silenced semi pistols are actually equipped with a slide lock.So you must cycle the action by hand.]Also the more shots put thru a silencer the more louder it becomes as in full auto,requiring stripdowns and cleaning every 500 shots or so.

I don't really get the legality or otherwise of them and I'm not sure why you'd use a full bore rifle and then suppress or silence it,losing a lot of the power you paid dear for! Not to mention the loss of trajectory,range and ft-lbs down range

They are legal here,with lots of if,buts and maybes,IF you are talking about a SILENCER.Again badly ,and hastily drafted ,bad law courtsey of Messers Burke and O'Dea.However a "sound suppressor" is not coverd in Irish law,and there is NO actual techinal description in Irish law as to what a "silencer"actually is.IE what it does,where it is fitted[remember you can get integral barrel silencers],it's components etc.You can fit a coke can over your barrel and have a one shot silencer.
Can they be purchased over the counter in my case YES.I bought mine over the counter in Limerick this year without any paperwork requirements.I also purchased a suppressed Steyr 243 with a can on it.The attitude I got from my local Sgt on this is if the rifle is liscensed we REALLY DON't want the extra paperwork involved in dealing with silencers.Henceforth I think we should all refer to them as SUPPRESSORS.

You do not lose power with in the silenced weapon.BANG does not equal OOMPH downrange !You lose the inital Bang at the muzzle ,Never the sonic Crack as the bullet travels to target.And certainly within its'capabilities of the ammo be it subsonic or normal any loss in power or range. you do have to change your sights somwhat for the extra weight of the can.Usually in the windage dept on the scope.Nothing serious at that.
Uses for them in hunting,not spooking the entire herd of deer/bunnies/fox if you miss with the first shot.
Their most basic function ,noise reduction.Noise pollution is becoming a big issue with clay clubs and rifle ranges.Suppressors can be got for shotguns as well and are becoming a big issue in the UK for silent clay shooting.Try shooting in a semi surburban area without people complaining about noise.Ironic that the Gardai would make a big fuss about "silencers" on guns,when it is patently illegal not to have one on your car or motor bike and how many wrecked boxes on cars are there blatting around our roads?

mcguiver

There seems to be a "blind eye" approach on suppressors/ sound moderators.

I bought my second firearm recently and the gun dealer offered me a choice of supressors over the counter, no hasstle. I dont know any rifle owner who doesnt have one (or more)!

Sparks

Maybe so Mc, but if it was ever checked, you'd be royally up the creek. You basicly need a letter of authorisation for a sound moderator/silencer/whatever-name-you-call-it. That's the law. From what I hear of it (ISSF shooters don't use silencers) though, it's not too onerous to get one, you just explain why and you get it. Hell, there's a running joke that they'll be mandatory in the UK for health&safety concerns over hearing damage in a few years

Irishglockfan

Maybe so Mc, but if it was ever checked, you'd be royally up the creek. You basicly need a letter of authorisation for a sound moderator/silencer/whatever-name-you-call-it. That's the law.

I,myself WILL argue this one out in a court of law if need be.
Under the following;
A technical defination of a "silencer" under Irish statuate law.IE HOW it functions and WHAT it does.[non existant]
The defination of the difference under Irish law between a "silencer" and a "sound suppressor"or "sound modifer"[no defination of a sound suppressor or sound modifer exists under Irish law.The law specifically refers to SILENCERS]

This is the same old arguement like the defination of a "tractor" under Irish law.We all know what a tractor is,and what they look like and do.however a farmer once modified his pickup with baloon tyres, a sprayer,and re classified it in the tax office as an agricultural tractor[very legal and do able].this entitled him to use green diesel.Customs&excise claimed that it was a pickup truck 4wd vechicle.In court customs case fell apart as there is and still is not a defination in Irish law as to what a tractor or agricultural machine is!
The law should be very pricise in its meanings,ambiguity as in this "silencer" or tractor case,will leave it open to be flouted or ignored.

The point that you require a firearms cert to specifically posses even "components "of a firearm and if the gun came supplied with a suppressor it is then technically a firearm component paticular to that firearm.

I checked these points aith a SC and he belives in his legal opinion it is winnable on those three points of law alone.

From what I hear of it (ISSF shooters don't use silencers) though, it's not too onerous to get one, you just explain why and you get it.

Hmmm Sparks,you should read the Irish shooters digest in Cal Wards coloum[I know you dont like the man,your reasons] of June 04 readers questions,about some fellow who tried the legal way to get a sound modifer permit for perfectly ligit from his super and the reply he got.The follow up is in this months

Hell, there's a running joke that they'll be mandatory in the UK for health&safety concerns over hearing damage in a few years

Will happen belive it or not even you ISSF folks might need them soon.

Terrier

Just remember if the Gardai are to start doing house calls to check safes as we are led to believe you would want to make sure to have it stored somewhere else.
I also know someone who had trouble this year due to the gardai asking all gun owners to bring there guns to the station at license renewal time, when some were singled out as records showed they were not supposed to be threaded for a suppressor but were... :rolleyes:

gouda

Terrier wrote:

Just remember if the Gardai are to start doing house calls to check safes as we are led to believe you would want to make sure to have it stored somewhere else.
I also know someone who had trouble this year due to the gardai asking all gun owners to bring there guns to the station at license renewal time, when some were singled out as records showed they were not supposed to be threaded for a suppressor but were... :rolleyes:

Seems like someone is yanking your chain, unless you have more info on this. There is no law preventing you from having a barrel threaded. I would love to know what kind of trouble your friend got into. I would also love to know what Garda station had shooters walking into the main office with firearms. Gardai are supposed to check all firearms which are licensed in their area but the reality is that they spot check a few each year. This info I got from my local Inspector.

Terrier

In the Galway area this year, I know of 5 stations that requested all guns to be brought to the station before licences were issued !! and that's yes if you own 5 guns they all had to go to the station.

I know it's not illegal to have a barrel treaded, but if this is done after the firearm is purchased it's kind of oblivious what its for... this is why the gardai were a bit interested in it.... :eek:
They was no action taken but it was noted, and he was strongly advised against the use of a suppressor

Irishglockfan

They do the same bring your guns in attitude in Ennis.A Lazy way for the Gardai to do their jobs.Galway wouldnt surprise me either.Know one gun dealer up there who has had an awful time from the Galway division.The further up the West Coast you go the more "Hicksville sheriff"attitude seems to prevail.

might be smart for your friend to get a piece of barrel threaded up to made up to protect and hide his external threads.Or aquire a friction fit thread adapter.He can also claim it is threaded for a barrel counterweight.That will baffle them.[no pun intd]

Sparks

Terrier wrote:

some were singled out as records showed they were not supposed to be threaded for a suppressor but were... :rolleyes:

Well, technically that's not singling out - as I understand it, the law in Ireland requires you to reproof if you thread the barrel for a silencer (as I understand it, it's yet another area that needs review).

Irishglockfan wrote:

I,myself WILL argue this one out in a court of law if need be.

Well, more power to you Glock, wish I had that kind of money

Sparks,you should read the Irish shooters digest in Cal Wards coloum[I know you dont like the man,your reasons] of June 04 readers questions,about some fellow who tried the legal way to get a sound modifer permit for perfectly ligit from his super and the reply he got.The follow up is in this months

Okay, first off I don't have a personal gripe with Cal Ward and unless he's on here, I'd rather not have a public debate on it.

And the specific case you're talking about was where someone was looking for a silencer rather than use earplugs for target shooting, and he got told to use earplugs by the Superintendent. From the legal point of view, that was perfectly reasonable, even if it wasn't what he wanted to have happen...

Will happen belive it or not even you ISSF folks might need them soon.

Which does prompt interesting questions regarding how silencers affect accuracy!

Terrier wrote:

In the Galway area this year, I know of 5 stations that requested all guns to be brought to the station before licences were issued !! and that's yes if you own 5 guns they all had to go to the station.

I do wonder if there's a case there of it being an onerous requirement from both the logistical and the personal security viewpoints...

IrishGlockfan wrote:

might be smart for your friend to get a piece of barrel threaded up to made up to protect and hide his external threads.Or aquire a friction fit thread adapter.He can also claim it is threaded for a barrel counterweight.That will baffle them.[no pun intd]

Er, no, it wouldn't. Whatever about inadvertant violation of a firearms act, where you could at least plead innocence from malicious intent in the courts, if you deliberately had something made to hide the fact that you were in violation of the acts, not only would you be absolutely crucified in court, anyone who advised you to do so would also be legally liable...

civdef

the law in Ireland requires you to reproof if you thread the barrel for a silencer (as I understand it, it's yet another area that needs review).

This is certainly not the case, and there is no doubt about it. The law we have is messy enough as it is, let's not muddy the waters even further,

Sparks

civdef wrote:

This is certainly not the case, and there is no doubt about it. The law we have is messy enough as it is, let's not muddy the waters even further,

Hmmm. I know I've seen it somewhere before (it's not exactly the sort of thing I normally go looking up). I can't find where though, so strike the comment, at least until I rediscover where the heck I was reading this...

Sparks

*ahem*
Colour me embarressed.
Civ's correct once again, the requirement for reproofing thread-cut barrels was a UK affair, and it's been contested (as you'd imagine) by the companies who make suppressors over there (Some details here[/quote]). I must have had what I was reading stuck in the back of my mind when I posted earlier. Sorry everyone!

jaycee

Just ..in passing ..!

Some years ago ..My Brno 22LR bought new came pre-threaded for a supressor..Factory fitted.
There is a tidy little screw on thread protector on the end...

It has never caused a problem ..The Gun has it's proof marks,
I presume it is safe to assume..it was proofed in that state..?

Irishglockfan

Well, more power to you Glock, wish I had that kind of money

nothing to stop anyone from defending themselves in a court of law,despite the adage coined by the legal profession no doubt,that the man who defends himself has a fool for a client.Thing is as a layman the court has to bend over backwards to help and give you the benefit of the doubt.

And the specific case you're talking about was where someone was looking for a silencer rather than use earplugs for target shooting, and he got told to use earplugs by the Superintendent. From the legal point of view, that was perfectly reasonable, even if it wasn't what he wanted to have happen

...

Actual quote of letter.
"my reasons for wanting a sound moderator as as follows;i use my 22 for target and vermin shooting which requiries the firing of a lot of shots in close sucession which is starting to have an effect on my hearing.by using the sound moderator i would be less likely to disturb livestock or other people in the vicinity of where I would be shooting".
There is also Declan Keoghs from FLAG response to the letter in the article which is too long for me to type out.But basically it states that using a silencer for noise reduction around nerveous animals and that the silencer makes the firearm no more or less dangerous,as well as that the person is already liscensed to posses the rifle is grounds enough under this dubious act.

Which does prompt interesting questions regarding how silencers affect accuracy!

Not much if at all.Unless somone ballesd up the threading process,which is a simple enough matter,or one of the baffles or deading compound is in the bullets flite path it should only require a adjustment in the windage by a click or so to compensate for the new forward weight.



I

do wonder if there's a case there of it being an onerous requirement from both the logistical and the personal security viewpoints...

would have thought it is a case of no obligation on the owner due to personal security risks.The act states that the Gardai can call to your house to inspect the gun.Nothing there about you having to drag it down to the cop shop so you can get the liscense.

Er, no, it wouldn't. Whatever about inadvertant violation of a firearms act, where you could at least plead innocence from malicious intent i

Ignorance of the law is no excuse as you know yourself.

if you deliberately had something made to hide the fact that you were in violation of the acts, not only would you be absolutely crucified in court, anyone who advised you to do so would also be legally liable...[/QUOTE

I see...so if i have a gun with the thread protector already supplied,thats ok.but should I lose said protector and go to a machine shop and have one run up on a lathe,or have the barrel trimmed back ,because the barrel with silencer is now too long,and save a piece of the barrel to be threaded intrenally to act as a cleaner looking thread protector,going by your arguement thats illegal????
There are how many threaded rifles in Ireland legally held and how many suppressors with them?Quick way out of this legal mess would be serial no the suppressor to the rifle,thus it is a firearm component and thus liscensed.But would be like thinking wouldnt it?

Personally I favour the intergral suppressor myself.That is a suppressor that covers the entire barrel from frame to muzzle .bit more complex to build,but alot more quiter and looks to the untrained eye like a slightly thicker than normal bull barrel.Wonder how they would handle that one.?

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

nothing to stop anyone from defending themselves in a court of law

True, but that adage is there for a reason. Not everyone has the expertise, or the time to acquire it, that it takes to successfully defend themselves.

Actual quote of letter.
"my reasons for wanting a sound moderator as as follows;i use my 22 for target and vermin shooting which requiries the firing of a lot of shots in close sucession which is starting to have an effect on my hearing.by using the sound moderator i would be less likely to disturb livestock or other people in the vicinity of where I would be shooting".

Now that's the quote of what he sent to Cal Ward, we don't know if it's what's on his actual application.
And what Cal lists as the response from the Garda is:

With reference to the above and further to your recent communication I am unable to approve your application on the following grounds:
1. I am not satisfied that you have a good reason for requiring a sound moderator as if your hearing is being effected you can acquire ear plugs to protect your ears.
2. Firearms should not be discharged in areas or circumstances which would or could disturb people or livestock.

Now, assuming that that's a full and accurate quote (and I suspect it's not a full quote given the length of these things and the space pressure on writing for a magazine, though I think it's probably gotten the gist of it across - and though it prompts the question of what "the above" refers to) whatever about reason (2) there, which seems to not understand the nature of shooting foxes, reason (1) is perfectly reasonable, legally speaking.

BTW, Declan's answer has an error - he says that a silencer doesn't make a rifle more dangerous - which is true unless someone walks into the firing line without having heard the prior reports from the rifle because of the silencer. If that were to happen (and let's hope it doesn't), then you could argue that public safety had been comprimised by the silencer (though really you should be hitting the shooter across the head for not having fired his rifle in a safe manner).

(for those interested, by the way, this is all on page 28 of the June 2004 Irish Shooters Digest).

Not much if at all.

Ah, but "not much" is a very relative thing - and when you're spending a fair few hundred euro to get batch-tested ammo for your rifle to try to get your 50m groupings from 16mm down to 13mm or so... well, not much becomes quite a lot

I would have thought it is a case of no obligation on the owner due to personal security risks.The act states that the Gardai can call to your house to inspect the gun.Nothing there about you having to drag it down to the cop shop so you can get the liscense.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. I mean, I know the local lad in our station woudn't dream of doing that, purely because he'd regard it as a daft idea. He'd call out to you if he wanted to take a peek (and he'd probably phone you up first to make sure you'd be there).

Ignorance of the law is no excuse as you know yourself.

Indeed - but I was talking about the difference between getting caught for something you didn't know about and getting caught for something you knew about and tried to cover up! One has more serious consequences than the other.

I see...so if i have a gun with the thread protector already supplied,thats ok.but should I lose said protector and go to a machine shop and have one run up on a lathe,or have the barrel trimmed back ,because the barrel with silencer is now too long,and save a piece of the barrel to be threaded intrenally to act as a cleaner looking thread protector,going by your arguement thats illegal????

Nope. What I'm saying is that if you were caught with a silencer and no authorisation to have it; and you'd had a custom-made bit made up to cover the threading so that it didn't look like the rifle took a silencer; you'd not have a lot of leeway in the court, and it could possibly lead to a more serious penalty.

There are how many threaded rifles in Ireland legally held and how many suppressors with them?

I know what you're saying, and yes, you're right - but it's like the penknife argument. If the garda sees a chap coming up from the river in waders carrying a fishing pole and gear and a penknife, he's a fisherman and it's a penknife. If he sees the same lad in the disco in a fight later that night and he has a penknife on him, it's an offensive weapon. See what I'm saying?

Quick way out of this legal mess would be serial no the suppressor to the rifle,thus it is a firearm component and thus liscensed.But would be like thinking wouldnt it?

Er, legally speaking, isn't it a firearm component already? Section 4 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990.e

Irishglockfan

BTW, Declan's answer has an error - he says that a silencer doesn't make a rifle more dangerous - which is true unless someone walks into the firing line without having heard the prior reports from the rifle because of the silencer. If that were to happen (and let's hope it doesn't), then you could argue that public safety had been comprimised by the silencer (though really you should be hitting the shooter across the head for not having fired his rifle in a safe manner).

True enough.but as you say it boils down to who was behind the trigger.Although there seem to be some people who are just plain stupid or blooddy minded to walk int a firing zone even when warned not to and can actually see the shooters.

(for those interested, by the way, this is all on page 28 of the June 2004 Irish Shooters Digest).

Ah, but "not much" is a very relative thing - and when you're spending a fair few hundred euro to get batch-tested ammo for your rifle to try to get your 50m groupings from 16mm down to 13mm or so... well, not much becomes quite a lot

like i said,if it is set up right and is alinged correctly you can shoot just as accuratly with it just you would without it.

Nope. What I'm saying is that if you were caught with a silencer and no authorisation to have it; and you'd had a custom-made bit made up to cover the threading so that it didn't look like the rifle took a silencer; you'd not have a lot of leeway in the court, and it could possibly lead to a more serious penalty.

First off,they would have to catch you with the silencer attached to the rifle.second there is no law to say that you cant have custom work done on the gun to hide iNMHO a very ugly disfigurement to the barrel.Again the point is debateable if you have a FAC and purchase the silencer over the counter with no questions asked are you and the dealer in trouble ,or will it be looked on as a firearm part which you can own.
I get the distinct impression that the issue is dealt with here under a nod and wink ,If you are liscensed do what you want with the gun,just dont cause any bother with it.but if you want to deal with it the ligit route all you will get is bother.And at the end of the day it boils down to bad and hasty law making,which will have to be proven in court,yet again.

I know what you're saying, and yes, you're right - but it's like the penknife argument. If the garda sees a chap coming up from the river in waders carrying a fishing pole and gear and a penknife, he's a fisherman and it's a penknife. If he sees the same lad in the disco in a fight later that night and he has a penknife on him, it's an offensive weapon. See what I'm saying?

I do,however ,where does our fisherman stand if he stops in at the pub for a drink before going home?He is now technically breaking the law as he is in a public place with an offensive weapon with no good reason to have it. Iknow we are dealing with shemantics,but if a LEO wanted to be a right bollock about this matter they could do so.it is the same arguement they can use to close down a gun club as under one act it could be looked on as a group training in and drilling in the use of arms.

Er, legally speaking, isn't it a firearm component already? Section 4 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990.e

[/QUOTE]

God that act is soo ambigious it could mean anything!There is no defination of what a silencer actually does,or is.No defination of what a firearm component is either.Does that mean if you had two stock screws from a buttplate in your tool chest,you could be done for not having a FAC?

Prohibited weapons at least would cover on thing quite clearly a can of CS gas.

The whole thing is dealt with in the Firearms and offensive weapons act 1990 sect 7.But again it is ambigious as to what a silencer is in law.And the act seems to specify that if you are a liscensed owner under the 1925 act it doesnt apply.In the whole thing there is no mention of sound modifiers or suppressors.So it could be argued that a sound modifier is not coverd under the act.
This actually happend in the USA where silencers were coverd by the NFA.Untill the late fifties folks got around this by buying "sound modifiers" from Parker hale in the UK.

ATF then had to push trhu a correct defination of what a silencer,sound modifier and suppressor is in law as well as it's function

[Any device attached in any way to a muzzle of a firearm inc air weapons or incorporating the whole barrel designed to reduce,baffle,or quiet, or silence, the noise of a discharged shot]

and what actually is a registerable part[the tube, not the internal components].

How to apply for it is simple,Live in a state that allows you to own such things,go to your dealer ,pick out what you want, get printed by your local sherrifs office,inc the paperwork with $200 transfer tax,send it to ATF and wait,and wait ..and wait abit more.[usually 3/4 months]Recive your class three lic for the silencer,full auto weapon,sawn off shotgun,short barreled rifle or destructive device,go to dealer ,pay up,go home..enjoy. No ambigouity,if's ,buts,maybes,or nods&winks.

Is it too much too ask that our lawmakers and glorious leaders could at least for their inflated salaries,produce comprehensible and understandable laws for us sheeple?