Columbia 3 given 17-year sentences

FTA69

bonkey wrote:

Which, if you reworded without the niceties would read:

"The fact that they were breaking the law does not automatically mean that they were breaking the law".

Errr....yes....it does.

There is a case to be made that their conviction is not merited on the grounds of what they have proveably done.

There is not a case to be made that they ahve done nothing wrong, nor that their actions were perfectly reasonable.


I'd say it flat-out and unquestioningly supports the allegations that many Sinn Fein members have no regard for any law, except when it is convenient to do so.

If the law says "you can't enter this country with a criminal record", then you can't enter that ocuntry with a criminal record. That doesn't mean that if you disagree with your record its okay for you to break more laws in order to illegally obtain a false passport, to enter said country illegally on two counts (i.e. with a criminal record and a false passport.

Its this nature of defence of Sinn Fein members (and other Republicans) which ultimately does your cause more harm than good. Has it ever occurred to you that one reason why people have no respect for Sinn Fein etc. is not because they break the laws they absolutely can't avoid breaking in order to act as what they see as Freedom Fighters, but rather because they break so many other laws and then have apologists make bullsh1t excuses about how there is nothing wrong with what they did, and how finding someone guilty of breaking a law that they actually broke is a miscarriage of justice.

Seperate the false passports from the 17 years. Admit they had no just excuse for entering the country on false passports. Accept that they should be found guilty and appropriately sentenced for these actions - by the Columbians and the British (it being a crime under British Law, I'm pretty sure to have a false British passport - rather than whining that its yet another case wher ethe law just shouldn't be applied to Republicans because its inconvenient. Come straight out and say that no conviction by the British regarding this issue should even be considered as being negotiable under the GFA, or anything like it.

Do these things and maybe, just maybe, you'll find that people will listen and even agree when you complain about an unsafe conviction made for political reasons and based on no real evidence.

But while you insist that the crimes they've comitted were either "nothing wrong" or simply justified, you'll only meet with derision when you start talking about related miscarriages of justice.

Generally, people only care when those who respect the law are hard done by it. Those who treat the law with derision will rarely garner sympathy when the law treats them in the same manner.


And rightly so.

jc

First of all many people "do have respect for Sinn Féin", in fact we are the third largest party in the country. Maybe people like you have no espect for us.

I made my point regarding passports in response to those who would hold this up as some sort of undisputible evidence that these men were training FARC. I pointed out that this activity is often undertaken for entirely innocuous purposes. Personally I think the discrimination against ex-political prisoners is a disgrace but that having been said I also feel that people should know better than to use fake documentation.

However, the issue of passports is a complete red-herring here considering they have already served their time for that action.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

Because you may have business there, that's why ie the case I outlined where a man went to the USA to visit his brother.

So travel on your own passport.

FTA69 wrote:

If your question is regarding Colombia, I ask you how do you know they "weren't welcome"?

It's not an unreasonable inference. If they thought they'd be welcome there, surely they would have used legitimate documentation?

FTA69 wrote:

Simply because a corrupt and abusive government makes a law it does not automatically mean that it is justified.

Maybe not, but it does make it the law.

Turn it around. Suppose someone sneaks into Ireland on a dodgy passport, spends some time hanging around unsavoury CIRA types, gets arrested. Do you think the Irish government would let him go on the basis that he considers them "corrupt and abusive"?

FTA69 wrote:

After the judge was subjected to enormous political and military pressure it was decided the original discredited evidence should stand.

Do you have a sources for the allegation of "enormous political and military pressure"?

Convictions get overturned on appeal; so do acquittals. Convictions more often than acquittals in Ireland - I don't know that the DPP even has the power to appeal an acquittal. Be that as it may, the prosecution appealed, and the higher court upheld the appeal.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

First of all many people "do have respect for Sinn Féin", in fact we are the third largest party in the country. Maybe people like you have no espect for us.

You'd need to be pretty defensive to interpret bonkey's "people" as "everyone". There are (lots of) people who have no respect for Sinn Féin. There are reasons for this.

FTA69 wrote:

I made my point regarding passports in response to those who would hold this up as some sort of undisputible evidence that these men were training FARC. I pointed out that this activity is often undertaken for entirely innocuous purposes.

Oh, please. There's nothing innocuous about travelling on forged documentation.

FTA69 wrote:

Personally I think the discrimination against ex-political prisoners is a disgrace but that having been said I also feel that people should know better than to use fake documentation.

Why? Because they might get caught?

Political prisoners. Shyeah, right.

SkepticOne

magpie wrote:

The question is, how the hell did they escape?

They didn't escape; they jumped bail. Cynics will say they were trying to evade justice, but who's to say they weren't simply trying to view the rare mountain tanager bird which has been recently discovered to use ultraviolet light to distingish between related species.

Capt'n Midnight

FTA69 wrote:

Because you may have business there, that's why ie the case I outlined where a man went to the USA to visit his brother. If your question is regarding Colombia, I ask you how do you know they "weren't welcome"? Simply because a corrupt and abusive government makes a law it does not automatically mean that it is justified.

You outlined a case where a man broke the law and tried to use that example to justify consistant lawbreaking. That man should have paid for his brothers tickets to come visit him. How can yer man be stupid enough to travel to the US on fake documents in light of the homeland defnese paranoia especially someone with links to a terrorist and stil think it's OK.

Using false documents is a way of not being accountable.

hmmm

Columbia has seen IRA style "bunker buster" bombs used in appalling attacks in recent years. The style of construction of these bombs strongly indicates IRA involvement. 3 Sinn Fein/IRA/whoever members turn up in Columbia on fake passports. If you add 2 and 2 together, the Columbians aren't unjustified in coming up with "4", and seeing our elected representatives running around screaming "bring them home!" without asking the obvious questions is sickening.

is_that_so

If their interest in eco-tourism is to be believed there are plenty of other countries in Central/South America that don't also have anti-government terrorists/freedom fighters(Take your pick) and at the same time have spectacular flora and fauna, not to mention exotic birds. What was it in the brochure that sold them on Colombia ?

spongebob

FTA69 wrote:

However, the issue of passports is a complete red-herring here considering they have already served their time for that action.

British Passports , you missed yet another opportunty to use the phrase British Passports . Tsk Tsk

M

mr_angry

I have every sympathy for having to spend 17 years in a Columbian jail. I think if it was me, I'd attempt escape myself.

However, if you accept that they travelled to Columbia on false passports, you really have to ask yourself what they were doing there. To dismiss it as an unrelated issue is absurd. In my opinion, I think this is grounds for considering all the other evidence, and if that evidence then points to bomb-making activities, as opposed to purely peaceful observation, then I'm afraid I think they're guilty. Now, if you want to argue that the evidence presented against them could have been fabricated, fair enough... I can't really argue with that because I don't know. But otherwise, I don't understand how this can be described as "a gross miscarriage of justice".

poneill

Bambi wrote:

Nothing like a jailbreak to bring out the dormant republican in me
go on the getaways!! 100 miles and running!

Brazil, as you will hear soon. A stately progress rather than a run .

is_that_so

poneill wrote:

Brazil, as you will hear soon. A stately progress rather than a run .

They must be doing the grand tour so. How delightful for them.

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

First of all many people "do have respect for Sinn Féin", in fact we are the third largest party in the country. Maybe people like you have no espect for us.

I made my point regarding passports in response to those who would hold this up as some sort of undisputible evidence that these men were training FARC.

No our argument is three men who travelled to coulmbia using false passports to examine their peace process is a tad suspicious. Sinn Fein are PR wizards supremists, they could have milked this for monthhs, how they're co-operating with the British govt and offering their experience and trying to learn with the help of other govt, with a terrorist group under cease fire. They didn't. Thats suspicious. They offered a false excuse when first arrested. Technical ability of FARC had improved and show the development of IRA style bombs in the interium.

Now the IRA and Sinn Fein have consistently said they were fighting a war. They're an army fighting. They're in combat. Well hey, the rules of law don't aply in war, and the IRA can't have their cake and eat it.

I pointed out that this activity is often undertaken for entirely innocuous purposes. Personally I think the discrimination against ex-political prisoners is a disgrace but that having been said I also feel that people should know better than to use fake documentation.

So why didn't they? They are engaged in one of the planets most high profile peace processes, why the necessity for cloak and dagger?

Oh and FTA, your political prisoners are our murders and terrorists.

However, the issue of passports is a complete red-herring here considering they have already served their time for that action.

yeah and after serving their time they disappeared in June, JUNE. This isn't a recent accurance.

Cork

cdebru wrote:

i believe they say they were studying the columbian peace process
and how it compared to the irish experience


afaik
the bird watching story is what they told the columbians before they realised they had been caught by the bollox

But I fear for the effect this whole Columbian mess will have on the Peace Process. A process that belongs to the peoples of this island and not SF/IRA.

If these 3 individuals remain on the run - I can't see the DUP getting into government wirh SF.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote:

So travel on your own passport. It's not an unreasonable inference. If they thought they'd be welcome there, surely they would have used legitimate documentation? Maybe not, but it does make it the law.

Convictions get overturne on appeal; so do acquittals. Convictions more often than acquittals in Ireland - I don't know that the DPP even has the power to appeal an acquittal. Be that as it may, the prosecution appealed, and the higher court upheld the appeal.

So just because a government passes a law on a subject that is perfectly legitimate? Apartheid South Africa had a judicial system of its own but it was rotten to the core and far from "legal" in any moral sense, just like Colombia. People here seem to be stuck in the mindset of "the government is always right", if that logic was always followed this country would remain a happy and willing part of the UK today, although that might suit many here.

As bad as the Dublin government is, they are not comparible to the actions of the Colombian regime, which practises activities such as the ones someone outlined earlier on. Your comparison is flawed.

Regards the trial, the conviction was secured on the testament of witnesses, one who was proved to be on the take and another who was shown to have changed his story several times, obviously at the behest of the prosecutor who answers to the establishment. One statement by this witness asserted the men were in Colombia "training FARC" at a particular date, a video was produced showing two of the men giving a lecture in Dublin. However, all that is needed for a conviction is the word of a judge who is open to all sorts of external pressures.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote:

You'd need to be pretty defensive to interpret bonkey's "people" as "everyone". There are (lots of) people who have no respect for Sinn Féin. There are reasons for this.
Oh, please. There's nothing innocuous about travelling on forged documentation.

Why? Because they might get caught?

Political prisoners. Shyeah, right.

I admit that travelling on false passports shouldn't be done, I never said that the activity was "innocuous", I stated that they are used in the main to gain access to a country in which innocuous activities take place ie holidays or visitations of relatives. The fact they were caught on a false passport by no means indicates they were training guerillas, in fact the whole passport issue was dealt with and now the sentence of 17 years is the only relevant issue at hand.

Why do I disagree with travelling on false documentation? Because, indeed, they might get caught. I personally will lose no sleep over someone breaking a minor law to visit their brother, but whatever flies your kite.

Finally, why the sarcasm at the term "political prisoner"? Your own government recognises their right to political status within the prisons so why don't you? Are you seriously telling me you do not believe IRA members are politically motivated?

A Dub in Glasgo

I notice a lot of people on this thread are ignoring the actual case and are speculating about why they think the 3 men are there.

Anybody can make up their own idea and ignore the reality :rolleyes:

FTA69

mycroft wrote:

Oh and FTA, your political prisoners are our murders and terrorists.

"Our"? For people who pledge their complete allegiance to the 26 County state and its institutions ye seem to have trouble in acknowledging the fact that their right to political status was recognised continuously by the governments you supported.

A political prisoner is simply someone who was incarcerated as a result of holding or acting upon their political beliefs. Simple as that, and no amount of your revisionist twisting can change that.

is_that_so

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I notice a lot of people on this thread are ignoring the actual case and are speculating about why they think the 3 men are there.

I would say that some part of the "speculation" is an attempt to understand why the case might have been brought in the first place.

A Dub in Glasgo

is_that_so wrote:

I would say that some part of the "speculation" is an attempt to understand why the case might have been brought in the first place.

I see a lot of folk replace the actual case against these men with their own speculation/ideas and declaring themselves happy with the conviction and sentence based on their made up bit rather than the reality of the evidence. I suppose the main reason for doing this is because the case against these men is so flimsy.

jjmax

Meh wrote:

Sinn Féin complaining about the criminal justice system being influenced by political considerations, that's quite a change of heart for them. They seem to have no problem with prison sentences being altered for political reasons in Ireland.

It wasn't so long ago the Birmingham Six were jailed when the criminal justice system in Britain was influenced by political considerations.
So not really a change of heart.
I'll stop there because it's all been said before.
I can never understand why people throw their arms up about injustices in other parts of the world, but then are selective when it's on their own doorstep. I put it down to ignorance.

Oh yeah, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.farcep.org/pagina_ingles/
Check their history link. Sounds like any rebel group in countless countries around the world, obviously not a popular cause though.

Trojan

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Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I suppose the main reason for doing this is because the case against these men is so flimsy.

were not these men traveling on false passports??

These 3 people will have a negative effect on our Peace Process. I feel that the effort that Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern have put into the process that is being help up by issues like the McCabe killers, illegal guns, criminality and the Columbia 3.

Interpol are now looking for these 3. No doubt they will have plenty time to persue their bird watching hobby. But I worry for the effect that this stuff will have on the Good Friday Agreement.

Cork

It wasn't so long ago the Birmingham Six were jailed when the criminal justice system in Britain was influenced by political considerations.

It was not long ago that Mr O’Snodaigh described Binead’s conviction as unsafe.

Source

But does anyone have a link where SF was critical of IRA Kangaroo courts?

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

"Our"? For people who pledge their complete allegiance to the 26 County state and its institutions ye seem to have trouble in acknowledging the fact that their right to political status was recognised continuously by the governments you supported.

A political prisoner is simply someone who was incarcerated as a result of holding or acting upon their political beliefs. Simple as that, and no amount of your revisionist twisting can change that.

Nice pick on the smallest point. Actually I reserve the right to not blindenly support the decisions and policies of the irish govt. And disagree with them.

A political prisoner can be also a murderer and killer and no amount of euphemisms can change that.

jjmax

Cork wrote:

It was not long ago that Mr O’Snodaigh described Binead’s conviction as unsafe.

Source

Sorry, I don't get your point.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

were not these men traveling on false passports??

.

Correct and they were convicted and sentenced for that offence. We are talking about the reversal of the acquittal on the charge of training FARC rebels.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

It was not long ago that Mr O’Snodaigh described Binead’s conviction as unsafe.

Source

But does anyone have a link where SF was critical of IRA Kangaroo courts?

And what relevance is this to the reversal of the acquittal for these men?

spongebob

jjmax wrote:

I can never understand why people throw their arms up about injustices in other parts of the world, but then are selective when it's on their own doorstep. I put it down to ignorance.

Or Blindness and Stupidity more than simply Ignorance in some cases

They were caught with British passports , some patriots they are. When you think of all the crap that Irish people suffered for showing their Irish passports over the years and now we hear that Sinn Féin are travelling on British passports. It is disgusting cowardly behaviour of the highest order .

Now they will muppet ther way through half the global judicial system with appeals and pleas and hold up any chance of a political solution in their own country before 2010. I hope they drown on their way down the Amazon but I equally hope the bodies are found and that we can end this now .

I see none of the support squad have the courage to say British Passports despite it being Sinn Féin policy to carry them nowadays.

M

billy the squid

you left out the last line of that quote, probably the most important part of that whole post.

now that I think of it i dont think i have ever heard sinn fein critisise kangaroo justice carried out by the provos. unless it was done by the ones on the unionist side.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

So just because a government passes a law on a subject that is perfectly legitimate? Apartheid South Africa had a judicial system of its own but it was rotten to the core and far from "legal" in any moral sense, just like Colombia.

...and if you broke a law in apartheid South Africa, you were subject to their judicial system. There's a straightforward way to avoid the penalties of those judicial systems, regardless of how you feel about them: don't go there and break the law.

Remember, apartheid was defeated almost entirely by external political and diplomatic pressure - not by self-styled "freedom fighters" illegally entering the country.

FTA69 wrote:

People here seem to be stuck in the mindset of "the government is always right", if that logic was always followed this country would remain a happy and willing part of the UK today, although that might suit many here.

That's an entirely specious argument. The government is by no means always right, and every few years I exercise my power to influence the government through the ballot box. Not as dramatic as killing and maiming, I'll admit, but altogether more civilised.

FTA69 wrote:

As bad as the Dublin government is,

The correct term is "the Irish government".

FTA69 wrote:

they are not comparible to the actions of the Colombian regime, which practises activities such as the ones someone outlined earlier on. Your comparison is flawed.

And your comparison with apartheid South Africa is bang on the money, yeah?

FTA69 wrote:

However, all that is needed for a conviction is the word of a judge who is open to all sorts of external pressures.

I'm still waiting for examples - with evidence - of the pressures to which Colombian judges are subjected.

FTA69 wrote:

I admit that travelling on false passports shouldn't be done, I never said that the activity was "innocuous", I stated that they are used in the main to gain access to a country in which innocuous activities take place ie holidays or visitations of relatives.

The primary use for false passports is holidaymaking? Are you serious?

FTA69 wrote:

The fact they were caught on a false passport by no means indicates they were training guerillas, in fact the whole passport issue was dealt with and now the sentence of 17 years is the only relevant issue at hand.

The fact that they were in the country on false pretences is intrinsic to the more fundamental question of what they were doing there in the first place. It's not ipso facto proof of guilt; neither is it irrelevant.

FTA69 wrote:

Why do I disagree with travelling on false documentation? Because, indeed, they might get caught. I personally will lose no sleep over someone breaking a minor law to visit their brother, but whatever flies your kite.

I don't consider forging travel documents to be a minor crime. Mind you, I don't consider terrorism to be a minor crime either.

FTA69 wrote:

Finally, why the sarcasm at the term "political prisoner"? Your own government recognises their right to political status within the prisons so why don't you?

Is there such a thing as "political status" within the Irish prison system? Or is there simply a pragmatic approach to dealing with a large group of prisoners who consider themselves to share a common identity? I'm genuinely asking, as I'm not aware of the concept of "political status" per se.

FTA69 wrote:

Are you seriously telling me you do not believe IRA members are politically motivated?

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what their motivation is: IRA members in prison have generally been convicted of violent crimes. I grant you that IRA membership is itself illegal, but I don't think it's unreasonable that a state should protect itself from treason, do you?