Pot Limit Omaha

DapperGent

Just starting to get into the aul Omaha now. I was wondering would anyone have any nuggets of wisdom to share with a beginner or any good links to strategy or tactics.

At this stage I feel like I know what I'm doing with Hold 'Em. I'm a bit lost when it comes to the Omaha though beyond, Double suited-conected good, QQQ3 bad.

I'd just like a rough guide sort of thing. I want to avoid the mistakes I made at the start of Hold 'Em ie. A4o is not a monster. That sort of thing.

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

Just starting to get into the aul Omaha now. I was wondering would anyone have any nuggets of wisdom to share with a beginner or any good links to strategy or tactics.

At this stage I feel like I know what I'm doing with Hold 'Em. I'm a bit lost when it comes to the Omaha though beyond, Double suited-conected good, QQQ3 bad.

I'd just like a rough guide sort of thing. I want to avoid the mistakes I made at the start of Hold 'Em ie. A4o is not a monster. That sort of thing.

Sure, QQ39 single suited is a mediocre hand that should be played from the small blind or possibly on the button in an unraised pot. If the flop comes up 10 9 3 you should probably fold unless you are getting getting huge odds, or you get some overwhelming physical tell.

Apart from that Omaha is actually an easier game than hold em as most of your decisions are clear cut. Its much easier for a tight player to make money at omaha, as you can wait a very long time in hold em for a hand that your prepared to back with your entire stack. Especially if your JP

Hectorjelly

In addition you will get plenty of dodgy advice about omaha, its tempting to play almost every hand, but as with hold em if you tend to play better hands than other people you will tend to do better; you will tend to have more redraws and that sort of thing.

It helps if all of your cards are complementary, ie 3456 double suited is a monster, as is AAQJ, but AK57 unsuited is fairly crap. This is because if you have 3456 you effectively have 6 good holdem hands, wheres as AK57 you only have 1.

DeVore

I'm something similar to yourself, maybe a bit along the road but I can see you in the rear view mirror sort-a-thing!
<In My Experience>
In most of the PL Omaha I've played, preflop play is no where near as active as in HE. Hands dont dominate each other as much (you arent worried that your A9 is facing AQ like in HE) and so raises only lose the REAL muck. Thats my observation from cash Omaha and the Omaha Tuesday tournie. I have a feeling thats not the way it should be though!

Any four card straight or near-straight in your hand is good. I'll limp with any pair in my hand though I have a feeling I shouldn't....

Most of the play seems to be on the flop and turn. Counting outs is important but unlike HE where people tend to call any card that improves their hand an "out" Omaha you could very easily be drawing to the second nuts left right and centre and have no outs. Trips and straights are often crud hands and you need to be on the look out for flushes and houses but at least you can tell that from the board. Drawing for a straight when the board is flushing is a bad idea in Omaha. (Dont start Oscar! I know! )

Other then that there are people here who know a lot more of the theory then I do.
Its a fun, twisted C**T of a game sometimes!

DeV.

Juan Pablo

The easiest way I have found to make money in Omaha is to eradicate those silly errors most players invariably make. You will have the nuts more often than holdem, so only bet it when you have the best of it. If you dont have the stone colds on the river, dont be calling raises. Get out. Too often you see people staying with straights on flushed boards, flushes on paired boards or trips on straight and flush boards. Once you are not one of these, this is where the easy money is. Be creative with your hand selections. Try have two "possibilities" starting out, (ie Ac4c9h9d will be your nut flush draw and a pair, the actual ace here has little value) Another example would be taking cheap flops with two sets of connected cards. 3467 is a nice starting hand, even better if there are raises around suggesting there could be a lot of broadway in the hands of your enemies, flop comes low you hit your nut straight and get paid by Mr AAxx and Mr KKxx. If you find yourself on a draw on fourth you need 13/14 outs to call a pot sized bet (which by then will usually be chunky) factoring in the implied odds of you then making a pot sized bet on the river when your draw hits. Be wary of not nut flush draws if there are a few in the pot. The King high flush will loose you all of your stack against good players if you aren't careful. Although if you can get someone heads up lesser flushes can get you pots "accidently" ie your two rag diamonds make you a flush when you both missed a str8 draw or whatever. There are no real monster starting hands in Omaha, its all about the flop and how you play your draws. In all in situations, you will be outdrawn, sometimes horribly. Deal with it. This is the first time I've tried writing down an Omaha guide so apologies if its a bit fuzzy. Best of luck and enjoy it, its a crueller mistress than that two card game i hear you speak of, but a hell of a game!

J.P.

DeVore

HectorJelly wrote:

It helps if all of your cards are complementary, ie 3456 double suited is a monster, as is AAQJ, but AK57 unsuited is fairly crap. This is because if you have 3456 you effectively have 6 good holdem hands, wheres as AK57 you only have 1.

I note with interest that Mr Jelly (if that is his real name) considers 35o and 46o to be "good Hold 'Em hands". He might say that, I couldnt possibly comment.

DeV.

Hitman Actual

Not playing much omaha lately so I'm a bit bit rusty, but one thing that I think is very important is your choice of starting hands. You really want hands that can hit the flop in several ways... the obvious is something like AAJT double-suited where you can hit a big set, big flush, big straight, monster free-rolling draw, etc. Now obviously this hand doesn't come up very often, but the principle is there.

Hands that can leave you drawing to non-nut hands are also dangerous... 689T is much better than 678T. In fact any hand that can leave you drawing to a second-best hand is dangerous: flopping bottom 2-pair or top-and-bottom 2-pair, or bottom set... these hands are all likely to cost you your stack in pot-limit.

Once the flop is there, it all comes down to maths.

A must-read book is Bob Ciaffone first omaha book (can't remember the name, but it's short and the you could read the sections you need in about an hour). It has some interesting nuggets like "Two good holdem hands don't necessarily make a good omaha hand", i.e. AK78.

Probably the two-plus-two PLO sections are good as well, but I haven't read them yet so I can't give a definate answer (plan to catch up on all that stuff over Christmas).

But back to the starting hands... in the Fitz the gamblers love omaha because they think they can play practically any hand... DONT fall into this trap... keep to decent starting hands and you'll find yourself in much better situations on the flop.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

I note with interest that Mr Jelly (if that is his real name) considers 35o and 46o to be "good Hold 'Em hands". He might say that, I couldnt possibly comment.
DeV.

No such thing as good hands, only good flops!

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

I note with interest that Mr Jelly (if that is his real name) considers 35o and 46o to be "good Hold 'Em hands". He might say that, I couldnt possibly comment.

DeV.

Monster hands! Its been interesting to watch Tom development as an Omaha player, hes storming now with some great results in the Oscars Omaha tournament. I go on and off Omaha, but some of the cash games are really really good. As alluded before anybody prepared to call a big bet on the flop or turn not drawing to the nuts, ie flush when the board pairs etc, is just a walking talking cash machine.

Hitman Actual

BTW, if you want the Ciaffone omaha book, I can leave it at the Fitz cash desk tonight.

Rodge

In my experience, I have found that the main raising hands are AAxx or KKxx becuase in holdem they are the strongest hands. In omaha they are only strong if you hit trips or the full house. AAxx may have outs if they are suited but with KKxx you may be drawing the flush but of course it wont be the nut one and invariably your opponent will have it. I would much rather see JQKA double suited than AAxx.

Basically my main advice for Omaha is to be very careful of pairs. I would pay as little as possible to see a flop with a pocket pair, I would want to see the flop because if it hits then your opponents are drawing dead but if it doesnt you are either dead or drawing to two cards. Get in for as little as possible and get out as cheap as possible. Like HectorJelly's post I think 3456 double suited is a monster (especially in a raised pot) 8910J is another beauty.

Hectorjelly

Some other points are, dont only raise with AAxx, it gives away your hand. If you can get all in or almost allin preflop with AAxx then its nearly always a + EV move. If you cant get all in preflop a hand like AA72 no suits is actually pretty bad.

Rodge

Is being all in before the flop a good thing in Omaha? Unless you are against real muck its pretty much 50 - 50. I dont like those odds.

Corben Dallas

Some basics that I’ve picked up at the table etc.
(Apologies if this is obvious) I would suggest JP's sage advice as the inside track on all things Omaha)

Ref the QQQ8 or AAA6 aren’t very good Omaha hands as its unlikely u'll hit the last Q or A in the deck and all u have is a pocket pair, most ppl bin these hands.
Same with getting three or four of the same suit i.e. 3 clubs even with AK8clubs-x mean u’ve drastically cut down your odds of getting a clubs flush draw.
Hands ranks that are worth playing gen. start at a min of trips and u prob really need to be on a straight draw to have a realistic chance of taking the pot
IMO the best hand in Omaha is AAKQ double suited or other reg. Omaha players reckon anything like 8910Jos is the top hand Omaha.
In HE there might be some advantage to slow playing monster hands pre flop in Omaha u generally want to get your raises in pre flop as there’s little advantage in slow playing big hands (If I could only work out what are the monster hands in Omaha! LOL )

Ive only ever played the HE/Omaha Tournament PL game in the Fitz and its really interesting how different players play the HE round to the Omaha. It alternates between a round of each, every time the dealer button goes round the table.
In HE u put in a PL bet in any position and gen everyone folds and u might have 1/2 players going to the river with u. In Omaha u make a PL bet in any position and 4/5 players are all in, even when u know u have a good hand the always follow u.Grrrr.
I really don’t like the PL part of this it means u cant get the ‘one caller only’ to a big hand that u can with HE.
This is because ppl aren’t used to played the game and don’t know the strong hands or maybe ppl just go mad because PL Omaha lends itself to randomness that maybe more ‘weak’ hands storm thru and out draw u more often.

Feel free to disagree with any/all of the above.

Hectorjelly

Rodge wrote:

Is being all in before the flop a good thing in Omaha? Unless you are against real muck its pretty much 50 - 50. I dont like those odds.

If your called by a nice hand it might be close to 60 40, but a lot of the time you will be a called by hands that you dominate badly. I picked some examples here at random, and I guarantee that you will be called by hands worse than below at the Fitz. Note that you are a significent favourite even against KK1010 double suited, and most omaha players would bet their kids life on that hand.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666163
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah tc 9d - ad kc 4c 4h
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc 9d Ah 371143 74.23 126500 25.30 2357 0.47 0.745
Kc 4c Ad 4h 126500 25.30 371143 74.23 2357 0.47 0.255

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666166
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah tc 9d - td 9c 7c 6d
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc 9d Ah 304783 60.96 157099 31.42 38118 7.62 0.648
9c 7c Td 6d 157099 31.42 304783 60.96 38118 7.62 0.352

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666170
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah tc 9d - td 9s 8s 7d
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc 9d Ah 299212 59.84 175363 35.07 25425 5.08 0.624
9s 8s Td 7d 175363 35.07 299212 59.84 25425 5.08 0.376

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666172
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah tc 9d - kh kd th td
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc 9d Ah 324147 64.83 175063 35.01 790 0.16 0.649
Kd Td Kh Th 175063 35.01 324147 64.83 790 0.16 0.351

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666173
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah tc 9d - 3h 3d 4h 4d
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc 9d Ah 291335 58.27 208665 41.73 0 0.00 0.583
4d 3d 4h 3h 208665 41.73 291335 58.27 0 0.00 0.417

bohsman

If you can get all in preflop with aces youve a lot going for you, if your only up against one person and the board pairs theres every chance Aces and will take it also your other two cards are live the problem is when Charlie Power runner runners a poker.

Other than the advice already given and I have to admit Im a terrible Omaha player I dont have the patience, avoid playing hands with a dangler, no matter how good the first three cards are if youve got AJT6 the 6 is destroying your hand, In holdem you should be seeing about 20% of flops, in Omaha thats closer to 15%

DeVore

Hehehh... I've had great results in Oscars Omaha Tournie as we'll call it! I have a terrible feeling its rather like the BL though, in that ye though I wander through the valley of death, no 2-outer-draw shall I fear!

It gives me underending pleasure to be the "Mr Magoo" driving blindly through JP/Ken/HJ/Oscars carefully crafted hand selection and intelligently weighted bets. Parp! Parp! Here comes the blind crazy guy with his 2-outer... oh look, he's hit, \o/
Its fun to watch Oscar chewing the table edge muttering darkly about 17-out monster draws with a wrap around!

What Rodge says makes a lot of sense and I've found out the hard way about paired hands that have little else going for them. Nice if you hit and easy to get away from if you dont but otherwise they arent much of a hand.

I've come to actually *prefer* PL Omaha in the HE/Omaha cash game now, simply because its more exciting and I havent analysed the *sh|t* out of it. Its solution-space is far far more complex then Hold 'Em, particularly because of the 2-card-from-hand rule. In that way, it suits emotive players better then HE, more so then the analytical players imho.

DeV.

DeVore

Hector, I like the twodimes stuff you post here occasionally.
If you use [.code] [./code] around it it will keep its formatting like this:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666163
pokenum  -mc 500000  -o ac ah tc 9d  - ad kc 4c 4h 
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards             win   %win    lose  %lose   tie  %tie     EV
Ac Tc  9d  Ah  371143  74.23  126500  25.30  2357  0.47  0.745
Kc 4c  Ad  4h  126500  25.30  371143  74.23  2357  0.47  0.255

DeV.

Juan Pablo

bohsman wrote:

In holdem you should be seeing about 20% of flops, in Omaha thats closer to 15%

In Omaha STT's online when I win I'll have seen between 70% and 75% of all flops. Slightly amended startegy for a 5 hand game obv but if its cheap, i'll be there.

Hectorjelly

[url]http://twodimes.net/h/?z=666173[/url]
pokenum  -mc 500000  -o ac ah tc 9d  - 3h 3d 4h 4d 
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards             win   %win    lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
Ac Tc  9d  Ah  291335  58.27  208665  41.73    0  0.00  0.583
4d 3d  4h  3h  208665  41.73  291335  58.27    0  0.00  0.417

Wow thats much better. Thanks Dev.

DeVore

yeah, in the cash game in the Fitz, I'll be in any hand that isnt

1. utter muck, I mean, 47TK rainbow.
2. Raised before me.

The fact is that the starting hands selected by the table are low too. So while everyone is there, they're there with crappy hands. Its a very loose-passive game in the Fitz I've found. Also, unless the Omaha specialists are out in force, the standard of play is pretty poor and theres a lot of "gambling" going on. Even the aformentioned
47TK hand can hit 44 on the flop and a king on the turn sort-of-thing. OK the usual argument against that is that the number of times you call and DONT hit or call and get reraised out of the hand makes it -EV.
However, the time you DO hit you'll make 100 notes easy, paying for all those limps week in week out

Now personally 47TK falls under my radar of "+EV starting hands" because I judge the odds to be too long but QQ93 can certainly be played from any position. It *shouldnt* be playable from any position but the tables looseness commonly allows it!

DeV.

Hectorjelly

Juan Pablo wrote:

In Omaha STT's online when I win I'll have seen between 70% and 75% of all flops. Slightly amended startegy for a 5 hand game obv but if its cheap, i'll be there.

Those figues arent comparable, in an stt once it gets heads up youll be playing 90/100% of hands.

Lafortezza

1) 5 players to the flop, you have Ah3h Qs8s, the flop is KhJh3c.
You're 3rd to act, its checked to you. Do you bet your draws? nut flush and gutshot straight draw in this case.

2) you have JJ 56 un suited. 3 to the flop you're last to act. Flop is 2 7 8 rainbow, you've over pair and open ended straight draw. EP checks, MP bets 15 into €30 pot, call/raise/fold?

3) You're on the button, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises to 6, MP2 raises to 15, 2 players fold. You have Kh5h Kc6c, Kings double suited, do you reraise this?

I've found in the Omaha, especially in the cash game, I'll be holding some kind of hand that looks quite tempting, KQ 89 with some suitedness going on. I limp for €1 or €2, by the time it gets back to me its €25 to see a flop, and there'll be 6+ players along for the ride too. I know Omaha has big variance but sometimes its just mental.

Do you bet your draws? I think at this stage I have a very very tight image on the round of omaha, ie I only bet/call with the nuts or near-nuts, should I bet draws then bet them again if I miss by the river? I just have a nasty fear of getting to the river in omaha and having A-high or something equally embarrassing.

bohsman

1 Im betting.
2 Calling.
3 Calling, Ill only raise to get value in the pot incase I hit my flop at 15 there is enough value and you can get away from it if you miss.

I once won a 300 odd euro pot with a pair of tens, I was betting my wrap all the way Joe was calling we had practically identical hands except I had hit a pair on the flop and my straight draw was one pip higher, we both checked the river but I was sure my pair was good and would probably have called a bet

Hectorjelly

1) Id bet it sometimes, more so against good players.
2) Id fold, you have 4 clean outs, 2 more if you include a J on the turn
3) absolutely not you could make a case for folding this hand now

When you bet your draws your semi bluffing, IMO you only need to use this tactic against good players who will fold from time to time. So not much use at the merrion. However if your shortstacked your far better off betting yourself if you plan to call a bet anyway, gives you two ways to win.

DeVore

1. Depends on the table. I'd probably bet it.

2. Likely fold this. I dont like it at all. Even your Jack makes a player holding 9T the nut straight. Ick!

3. As Collette put it so succintly recently on a table I was on "you bunch of ball-less wonders!". I reraise this hand to 45 euro. I want to be heads up and I'm willing to pay 30 to take the others out of it. If they come along for the ride then I'd better hit something nice (like K55 ) but with a raise, reraise, rereraise, I'm literally betting its me and the last guy to act heads up.

DeV.

bohsman

I have seen someone go all in for 500 preflop with KK22double suited, when it was very obvious the other person had aces and caught a King on the turn

Juan Pablo

1: Ram and Jam this one

2:Fold. Even for €5, fold.

3:Most of the time I'd probably lay this down, unless it was raised and reraised by Chin and LambChop.

Rodge

1) I am taking this one all the way to the bank 9 times out of 10.

2) Open ended str8 draw it maybe but it isnt really as a 4 is the only card here that you would want to see. If I think he is betting with trips then I will call because I have outs, otherwise fold.

3) definetely no raise, I would be struggling to call as well.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

3. As Collette put it so succintly recently on a table I was on "you bunch of ball-less wonders!". I reraise this hand to 45 euro. I want to be heads up and I'm willing to pay 30 to take the others out of it. If they come along for the ride then I'd better hit something nice (like K55 ) but with a raise, reraise, rereraise, I'm literally betting its me and the last guy to act heads up.

DeV.

Have you ever seen a player reraise in Omaha and the fold to a rereraise of €30? Maybe Im too tight but KK56 double suited isnt that great a hand. You have a pair of Kings, which could already be dominated, two non not flush draws and 56.

Almost completely off topic but I really hate when older players make condensending remarks at the table, collette I forgive because shes cool, but one of the younger guys whos involved in the club (who I like normally) raised in EP with 34s, showed it to the table, and then launched into a tirade "wow look at me raising with low suited connectors you young guys play too tight you wouldnt get a move like that, too busy waiting for AK" all with a self satisfied smugness that put be so far on tilt I started playing better. He then called an all in for 3/4 of his chips with Q5s. Wow good move man.
[/rant]

DeVore

Yeah, it annoys me when people make comments like that too unless they are good players (who generally DONT do that, in fact the better the player the less likely they are to be arseholes in my experience) or kidding around (like Joe does occasionally).

I make the occasional "Don't tap on the glass!" (I *love* that remark, kudos to Spiritus!) or "You paid to see, lessons are extra" comment when I out draw someone and want a laugh after they inevitably bitch about "how could you bet/call with that etc etc". I've rarely seen people be completely arrogant on a table. I saw one bunch of younger players who were very cocky in the Gutshot but Chris utterly *spanked* them on the NLH cash table and they were so far on tilt the chips were rolling out of their pockets to her!

Yesterday I had to laugh at Paddy Hicks. Paddys a great guy, someone I always like to see join my table even though he's a terror to play against. The man has no fear, cant be driven off of a hand that he wants to see more cards with!
Anyway, I have JTh in the big blind and everyone limps for 50. I pop it up to 100 with a min raise and it gets round to Paddy who looks at me funny and says "I'll have a little bet" and raises it up about 800. everyone folds and I think about it and think that Paddy is at his slow-play-with-big-pairs trick that I've seen him do a few times and despite the fact that I want to try and crack aces or kings with JTh, I fold saying "I think you are at your tricks again, limping in and then reraising Paddy" and he looks at me and says "Ah, you have to put down puppyism whenever you see it!"

Aparently he took my min raise on the BB to be the work of a cheeky pup and promptly slapped me!!

DeV.