New Site Design - What Do You Think?

eoge

Hi

I’d like a few opinions on the design of my latest site. It’s just a basic draft at the moment but any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

http://profitmaker.eoghanmccabe.com/15122004_0/

Shrimp

It's good, But could be alot better.

1. Make the navigation bars which the navigation writing is on a bit thicker.
2. Make the content area (everything but the white) a little narrower and longer
3. Have the two lines on either side go all the way down to the bottom of the page.
4. Change the font of the Navigation, and of the logo on the top right hand side... "Profitmaker"
5. Higher the size of the content font up by one.

I dont mean that you have change all those things otherwise it'd look crap, all I'm saying is just mess around with those elements.

All-In-All a good clean looking site with a simple layout.

JustHalf

It looks clean, but lacks purpose. What's it for?

You should increase the clickable area of those links, or else someone will be having Fitts.

Shrimp

yeah.. I'd agree, thats what I meant by "Make the navigation bars which the navigation writing is on a bit thicker"......

dangerman

nah i disagree. i think those nav bars are absolutely fine. but then i'm a fan of nice tight design.

Colour scheme woudn't be my fav but thats a personal thing. The grey and whatever that bluish/aqua/green colour is depress me.

good work overall. would load slightly quicker if the blank grey images were replaced with just HTML table background colours.

deep_end

Blue & Green is like "Grass in top of water" ; opi: change it to blue & light gray.
HTML it doesn't exist any more (DHTML, XHTML, JAVA and SWF) you need all this to spice up your website.

Keyzer

I'm sorry but I think its very dull and boring...
In my opinion a good website boils down to a few things - attractive and pleasing to the eye, user friendly and functional.

This site is like a template I have seen a thousand times before....

Shrimp

yeah.. esthetics are essential in web-design

eoge

Hi. Thanks a mil to everyone that has replied. You’ve been very helpful.

So what do you think of this latest draft then?

http://profitmaker.eoghanmccabe.com/21122004_0/

"HTML it doesn't exist any more (DHTML, XHTML, JAVA and SWF) you need all this to spice up your website"

I'm not trying to make a spicy web site. Using such technologies here may impress you and other coders but not the visitors of my client's site. They should be allowed find the information they require provided and presented to them in and accessible and effective manner. This requires no flash and certainly no Java. Java has its place in Computer Science, but rarely - I believe - is that place on a web site. We learned that in the nineties! I accept that it is time for me to look into XHTML, but I’ll get by for the moment and for many years without it. :P

On the "Blue & Green" issue, #2E7B98 (the base of that blue colour) and #A5AB3D (the base of the green-ish colour) are tetrad harmonies of each other. They work very well together - but I respect a personal distaste for certain colour combinations, designs, etc. Not much can be done for individual preferences but suit my own.

Keyzer

eoge wrote:

Java has its place in Computer Science, but rarely - I believe - is that place on a web site. We learned that in the nineties!

What are you talking about? HTML and all other web design languages were developed as a result of computer science. What do you think powers formmails etc.?
Without other technologies being tinkered with and devolped by web designers we would be looking at rubbish on the web day in and day out. What do you think powers e-business?

eoge wrote:

I accept that it is time for me to look into XHTML, but I’ll get by for the moment and for many years without it. :P

Then your website will only ever appeal to a niche market....

Shrimp

worse.. sorry thats my opinion.. the green just distracts me! instantly thats what I seen.. take away all the diagonal lines.. i donno they crowd it.. emm also make far less writing in the text...

Drapper

What are the changes???

still the same !!

make it larger !!! some people have bad eye sight QQQQQ :-)

weemcd

Aesthetics

JustHalf

deep_end wrote:

HTML it doesn't exist any more (DHTML, XHTML, JAVA and SWF) you need all this to spice up your website.

XHTML won't make it any better from the perspective of a regular user, definitely not spiced up... and you should NEVER add DHTML, Java or Flash to a website just for the sake of it.

You should always have a good reason for putting something into the design of a site. Look at every page element... if you can't give a reason for its presence that you honestly agree with, strip it from the design.

That site won't be made any better if the boxes move in a Flash animation, or by jamming a Java applet into the site "because Java makes sites better".

JustHalf

eoge:
Glad to see you've made the clickable areas larger.

Quick fixes:
Make the links more distinct, both from each other and from the rest of the page.
Don't use justified text, unless you know exactly what you are doing. Auto-justifying algorithms in browsers are, in a word, sh*t. The variable and excessive word-spacing is making your text hard to read.
Increase the font size (10px is way too small), and increase the line-height.

Overall it is a mild improvement, but you've made several steps backwards. The new banner image breaks the flow of your eye across the page. There is little done to make sections distinct. There are three products listed on the front page, but they are given as much weight as the last line of the text.

Keyzer

Not to get into a debate, but a website aimed at selling something or promoting a company is supposed to be attractive, aesthethically pleasing and functional. Whether you agree or not its a simple fact of marketing and advertising which is what your website is supposed to do for your company, market you and advertise you.

If that means adding xhtml, dhtml, java or flash then so be it.

If your site is as boring as watching paint dry, which this one is, then forget it, its futile....

Examples:
www.play.com - its bright, easy to navigate, attractive.
www.smartwebby.com - again bright and easy to navigate, nice pop down menus on the top.
www.elara.ie

JustHalf

Keyzer wrote:

Not to get into a debate, but a website aimed at selling something or promoting a company is supposed to be attractive, aesthethically pleasing and functional. Whether you agree or not its a simple fact of marketing and advertising which is what your website is supposed to do for your company, market you and advertise you.

I agree fully.

Keyzer wrote:

If that means adding xhtml, dhtml, java or flash then so be it.

The most important word in that sentence is if. You need to have a good reason for using any particular tool.

You don't need to use DHTML, Java or Flash to make your site look good. And if you use Flash, you should use it in a way that supports your design.

Far too often, Flash and DHTML are used as a crutch. Any technology will also have it's own limitations and problems, that need to be accounted for.

You can't really improve a site just by jamming Flash into it. If you do use Flash, it needs to be incorporated properly in a way that supports the design as a whole. Any design should be a cohesive whole (unless you really know what you're doing).

Keyzer wrote:

If your site is as boring as watching paint dry, which this one is, then forget it, its futile....

Well, all I'm trying to do is help the guy improve what he has done, not turn it into a masterpiece. Not unless he wants to pay me for it

dangerman

HTML it doesn't exist any more (DHTML, XHTML, JAVA and SWF) you need all this to spice up your website.

That is such a strange thing to say and complete rubbish. As justhalf said, only if these things are necessary to add to the user experience should they be used. There's far too much of the mentality - i know flash so i'll add it - around.

Leaving that aside, one thing I noticed is the symbols to the left of ProfitMaker - they look kind of like text symbols - i thought for a second your name might be 'ando' and those symbols were some logo for that. -I think it's because the 'o' of profitmaker is the same symbol used in the last shape of the 4 little boxes. I think the profitmaker logo should be made to standout more, at the moment it just blends into the nav bar.

The products should have much more emphasis, instead of just being lines of text, you could have graphics for each of them.

Keyzer

As per the last 2 posts, I agree that theres no point in having rubbish flying around the webpage or stupid unneccesary menus if they are not needed or just make the site look bad.

But if on the other hand the added elements add to the site then there is no reason why they shouldnt be used. I always say that less is more with webdesign, but the lesses part needs to be quality to begin with, then throw in a nice add on (one, 2 max).

Anyway, back to the original question, I think the guys site is still boring and unattractive.

eoge

Hi all. Thanks again for the feedback – and insult.

Keyzer:
“What are you talking about? HTML and all other web design languages were developed as a result of computer science. What do you think powers formmails etc.?
Without other technologies being tinkered with and devolped by web designers we would be looking at rubbish on the web day in and day out. What do you think powers e-business?”

Oh dear. You’ve missed my point entirely. You also seem to have a very funny idea of what computer science is.

The site is for a VERY niche market, by the way. The company produces software for use in the factories of window manufacturers in Ireland and the UK. There aren’t too many of these!

Keyzer:
“If your site is as boring as watching paint dry, which this one is, then forget it, its futile....

Examples:
www.play.com - its bright, easy to navigate, attractive.
www.smartwebby.com - again bright and easy to navigate, nice pop down menus on the top.
www.elara.ie”

play.com is bright but I find it’s excited colours extremely distracting and painful to read through / around. I find it – as a whole, because some of the elements, such as the logo and the nav bar are cute – to be a badly designed site. This tells me quite a bit about your sense of design and teaches me how to deal with your critique - although, I do appreciate it. smartwebby.com is a nice demonstration of an effective structure for a site with a lot of content. This is far from the type of site I am designing. Mine is a brochure site with very little content. smartwebby.com is pretty clean though – I like that.

Drapper:
“make it larger !!! some people have bad eye sight QQQQQ :-)”

You’re dead right on the text size – it’s on my fix-list, along with increasing the size of the nav fonts. Most people have mentioned this when they look at the site.

JustHalf:
“Glad to see you've made the clickable areas larger.”

Yeah, I read that Fitts article. Very useful – it inspired the way the buttons work now. Thanks!!

JustHalf:
“Overall it is a mild improvement, but you've made several steps backwards. The new banner image breaks the flow of your eye across the page. There is little done to make sections distinct. There are three products listed on the front page, but they are given as much weight as the last line of the text.”

I agree with the banner breaking the flow somewhat – will have to look into that. Maybe my planned change to the logo element will help…

I’ve changed the text layout just a little, what do you think?

http://profitmaker.eoghanmccabe.com/21122004_0/

dangerman :
“…one thing I noticed is the symbols to the left of ProfitMaker - they look kind of like text symbols - i thought for a second your name might be 'ando' and those symbols were some logo for that. -I think it's because the 'o' of profitmaker is the same symbol used in the last shape of the 4 little boxes. I think the profitmaker logo should be made to standout more, at the moment it just blends into the nav bar.”

I never thought about that with the symbols - 'ando'. Lol. As mentioned above, I plan to rework the logo slightly and make it stand out a little better.

Thanks to all again. I find it amusing the differing reactions to my designs that I get on different forums. One particular site I use – with a forum dedicated to design critiques – is frequented by designers and they like my site!

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218038

This says a bunch of different things to me – but it is important that the average Joe likes it too. (Yeah, I’m calling you guys average Joes!! He he. :P (Except Mr. Barrett, he seems to have some sort of design sense and experience. dangerman too. Although I really don’t know the first thing about you guys. Sorry, I’m just bitter!))

On the Java/Flash/Fancy-Hoopla-Web-Technology debate. I’ll admit to showing off my Flash and Java abilities in the past but I soon realised they helped the sites by no amount and only hindered their use. Since then I’ve cut out these thing from my pages and everyone is much happier. XHTML is a nice idea, and I will embrace it when I have time. I weigh the amount I’m getting paid and the amount of time each of these jobs take me and know without a doubt that my clients will be none the happier just because I’ve implemented some new standard. I know it’s not a very noble position, but I’m in business and I’m not trying to impress my peers – not in the technical arena anyway.

If any of you guys would like an objective critique of your work, give me a shout – I’d like to repay the favour.

Shrimp

Look, If you come on here and ask us for our opinion, you have to be prepared for some Harsh, but true constructive criticism. We gave you our hoinest opinion. If it was good we would say, if it was bad we would say. If your not happy with what was said deal with it, it's our opinion.

Keyzer

eoge wrote:

Hi all. Thanks again for the feedback – and insult.

Keyzer:
“What are you talking about? HTML and all other web design languages were developed as a result of computer science. What do you think powers formmails etc.?
Without other technologies being tinkered with and devolped by web designers we would be looking at rubbish on the web day in and day out. What do you think powers e-business?”

Oh dear. You’ve missed my point entirely. You also seem to have a very funny idea of what computer science is.

The site is for a VERY niche market, by the way. The company produces software for use in the factories of window manufacturers in Ireland and the UK. There aren’t too many of these!

It wasn't an insult, just constructive criticism.
Why do I have a funny idea of what computer science is?
How do you define computer science?

Just because you are catering for a niche market does that mean its ok to offer that market a boring website?

play.com is bright but I find it’s excited colours extremely distracting and painful to read through / around. I find it – as a whole, because some of the elements, such as the logo and the nav bar are cute – to be a badly designed site. This tells me quite a bit about your sense of design and teaches me how to deal with your critique - although, I do appreciate it. smartwebby.com is a nice demonstration of an effective structure for a site with a lot of content. This is far from the type of site I am designing. Mine is a brochure site with very little content. smartwebby.com is pretty clean though – I like that.

So basically I list play.com as a good site, you disagree and this tells you that I my sense of design bad if I mention play.
Then I list smartwebby, which you like, does this mean I'm back in your good books? The logic seems to be missing.

Listen, I'm not arguing with you, its pointless and a waste of time.
If I annoyed you by giving you my opinion then thats the way it goes.
Either way it was meant to be constructive.

eoge

Shrimp wrote:

Look, If you come on here and ask us for our opinion, you have to be prepared for some Harsh, but true constructive criticism. We gave you our hoinest opinion. If it was good we would say, if it was bad we would say. If your not happy with what was said deal with it, it's our opinion.

I've said more than once that I appreciate the feedback. Chill...

eoge

Keyzer wrote:

Listen, I'm not arguing with you, its pointless and a waste of time.
If I annoyed you by giving you my opinion then thats the way it goes.
Either way it was meant to be constructive.

Right. Apologies - but in fairness, simply saying "boring and unattractive" is not constructive, it's just criticism.

Keyzer

eoge wrote:

Right. Apologies - but in fairness, simply saying "boring and unattractive" is not constructive, it's just criticism.

In my opinion I think its boring and unattractive, therefore to make me like your site you need to change what you have into something lively and attractive.

Anyway, lets all calm down and have a group hug.

Shrimp

Exactly... down to a Tea(bag) Keyzer

deep_end

Your web site is your storefront and can mean the difference between your success and failure. Prior to designing your web site, you must have a clear understanding as to exactly what it takes to succeed. This involves much more than simply putting up a web site. You must look at the entire picture and plan each step very carefully.

Although many new Internet entrepreneurs believe that all they need to do to make money online is to put up a web site, that couldn't be further from the truth.

The truth is developing a successful Internet business takes a great deal of time, thought and effort. It takes a sincere commitment, a lot of patience, and a lot of personal drive.

There are a lot of lessons that must be learned, and a lot of failures that must be endured. However, if you're truly passionate about your business and success you will succeed.

eoge

deep_end wrote:

Your web site is your storefront and can mean the difference between your success and failure. Prior to designing your web site, you must have a clear understanding as to exactly what it takes to succeed. This involves much more than simply putting up a web site. You must look at the entire picture and plan each step very carefully.

Although many new Internet entrepreneurs believe that all they need to do to make money online is to put up a web site, that couldn't be further from the truth.

The truth is developing a successful Internet business takes a great deal of time, thought and effort. It takes a sincere commitment, a lot of patience, and a lot of personal drive.

There are a lot of lessons that must be learned, and a lot of failures that must be endured. However, if you're truly passionate about your business and success you will succeed.

And for more, see original article here: http://www.bestwebdesignsbytyler.com/HowToDesign.html :rolleyes:

dangerman

eoge wrote:

And for more, see original article here: http://www.bestwebdesignsbytyler.com/HowToDesign.html :rolleyes:

that website looks **** & it's not displaying properly in firefox for me.

eoge

dangerman wrote:

that website looks **** & it's not displaying properly in firefox for me.

I know. I'm takin the piss out of yer man - that's the page where that deep "your site is your storefront" speech came from.

angelofdeath

not getting into the debate here, but my two cents on the website posted originally... i like it, its clean, simplistic and minimalist which suits my taste, but everyone has personal tastes, some will like it others won't, simple as