is henry a "choker"?

lili

he is absolutly brillant in EPL, but can't show the same in CL.
for some, it's because the EPL is not as high level as other leagues. but if we considere chelsea as a potential winner of CL. we have to admit that EPL is underrated.
also henry scored 2 goals against chelsea, means he could do the same to whatever other big european team.
so, what's wrong with him?

Big Ears

Whats 'wrong' with him is the rest of the team , they get the ball up to the forwards much less in CL games (obviously with quality of opposition this is to be expected) and Henry drops deep to try and get things going . He may not score many goals but Henry often plays well in Europe .

The Muppet

The teams in the CL have better defences than most of those on the EPL, This affects Henry in particular because of his style of play. He likes to take the ball deep and run at the defence and this is not as effective against the better defenders in the CL.

Gangsta

Henry has been playing well in europe for a couple of seasons, he is also showing how good he is in the air these days too. They just need to be more ruthless and finish teams off quicker. henry is no choker.

Jivin Turkey

This topic should be funny.

Henry is the third highest scorer in Champions League history. He is only 27. He has only played for Arsenal for five years. I find it hard to understand how he could be a "choker".

lili

i noticed that for people from the north of europe, henry is an incontestable great player. but people which are fan of italian or spanish leagues don't think the same. for them, guys like sheva, ronaldo or ronaldinho are more talentuous. and i don't speak about the way henry is also criticized for his lack of performance with the french squad.

Big Ears

lili wrote:

i noticed that for people from the north of europe, henry is an incontestable great player. but people which are fan of italian or spanish leagues don't think the same. for them, guys like sheva, ronaldo or ronaldinho are more talentuous. and i don't speak about the way henry is also criticized for his lack of performance with the french squad.

Henry is a great player and Shevshenko(best striker in the world), Ronaldo(not as good as Andriy , but still top class) and Ronaldinho(the best attacking midfielder/player in the hole in the world) are all more talentuous than him .

PHB

Its not just his fault, its the Arsenal team which in Europe doesn't get a fast style of play going simply because really good teams don't let them.

He doesn't lose his skill in europe, but the best best part of his game is obviously his pace, which is a lot less effective in Europe.

Both Chelsea and Arsenal need an out and out striker who can nick a goal in the last minute from a nothing chance, thats what they are missing in Europe this year.

Jivin Turkey

lili wrote:

i noticed that for people from the north of europe, henry is an incontestable great player. but people which are fan of italian or spanish leagues don't think the same. for them, guys like sheva, ronaldo or ronaldinho are more talentuous. and i don't speak about the way henry is also criticized for his lack of performance with the french squad.

They are all amazing players, and it is impossible to distinguish who is actually better than who, because they all have so many different qualities.

But when it comes down to it people are far too quick to dismiss Henry as not being on the same level as those players, which is stupid because he has outscored all of the above domestically and in Europe for the last number of years.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

Both Chelsea and Arsenal need an out and out striker who can nick a goal in the last minute from a nothing chance, thats what they are missing in Europe this year.

Chelsea are missing something in Europe? Their group table would suggest otherwise.

PHB

Ok, look at the Arsenal game for example, their two goals came from set peices and had no real attacking options created, especially in teh second half.
There 2-1 offensive style doesn't work very well against really good teams, and they need Gudjohnson to be a better player for it to be incredibly effective.
He's good but hes not amazing, and Mourinho knows this and is also on the look out for a striker to solve his problems.

Arsenal definally need one of these.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

Ok, look at the Arsenal game for example, their two goals came from set peices and had no real attacking options created, especially in teh second half.
There 2-1 offensive style doesn't work very well against really good teams, and they need Gudjohnson to be a better player for it to be incredibly effective.
He's good but hes not amazing, and Mourinho knows this and is also on the look out for a striker to solve his problems.

Arsenal definally need one of these.

What about Drogba? I would consider him an out and out striker. Hes done quite well this year seeing as he has had a lot of trouble with injuries.

PHB

Yeah but hes not good enough.
yesterday he missed an easy chance that gudjohnson would have put away.
He is what CHelsea need though, if only he became as good as he was in France last year. IMO its the only thing missing in the Chelsea team

cournioni

The Premiership has crap defenders. That is why he is so good because he has the speed to frighten these defenders ****less. In the CL and Internationally the defenders are far better and can cope with him easily enough.

BaZmO*

lili wrote:

are more talentuous.

Big Ears wrote:

all more talentuous than him

I must of been out sick the day they thought us that word in English class!!!

jesus_thats_gre

In something like 40 games against Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, Henry has scored 20 goals. So thats a ratio of 1 goal in every 2 games. That is the exact same as his overal goal to game ration..

So no, he is not a choker, he is just human.

Big Ears

BaZmO* wrote:

I must of been out sick the day they thought us that word in English class!!!

talented is thw word I should have used.............................I only used it because............I was replyling to lili who used it first .

cournioni

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

In something like 40 games against Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, Henry has scored 20 goals. So thats a ratio of 1 goal in every 2 games. That is the exact same as his overal goal to game ration..

So no, he is not a choker, he is just human.

Henry has played against Arsenal? :eek:

jesus_thats_gre

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Henry has played against Arsenal? :eek:

Stress.

United, Liverpool and Chelsea.

cournioni

I don't think he's scored that many against United. Maybe 3?

jesus_thats_gre

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I don't think he's scored that many against United. Maybe 3?

Good to see you back to your best..

So you think he is not worthy of the praise he gets then?

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I don't think he's scored that many against United. Maybe 3?

Its got to be more , although I can only think of 3 right now , the one where he flicked it up with his back turned to goal and volleyed it in , and the two in the game where Barthez ****ed up badly .

cournioni

I think he's good, but he needs to do more against tougher opposition. He scored two against Chelsea this month so maybe he is coming good, but twice against United in the last year or so he has been anonymous for most of the game (FA Cup Semi Final and United at Old Trafford this season), he was the same against United last season at OT. And again the same in the European Championship this Summer and against Ireland and Israel for France.

Either he is a choker, or he is only capable (ability wise) of playing well against weaker opposition. I'd prefer RvN any day.

lili

BaZmO* wrote:

I must of been out sick the day they thought us that word in English class!!!

huh?!
what's wrong?
don't tell me it's not english. i use it very often!
:eek:

BaZmO*

lili wrote:

huh?!
what's wrong?
don't tell me it's not english. i use it very often!
:eek:

I'm assuming you're being serious?

But I think the word you should be using is "talented"

B.

crowl

what pornapster said pretty much,
against good defenders most of the time he just gets shut out of the game,
against top teams i would always prefer van nistlerooy/schevchenko

lili

BaZmO* wrote:

I'm assuming you're being serious?

But I think the word you should be using is "talented"

B.

well, none told me before.
the shame:D i used it so many time.

Take it

Henry is not a choker, far from it, teams play a set tactic for the EPL but change their tactics in the CL sometimes the tactics I feel don’t suit Henry as its a possession game and wait for your chance to come in the CL when in the EPL they attack looking to create chances rather then waiting for one to occur.

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I think he's good, but he needs to do more against tougher opposition. He scored two against Chelsea this month so maybe he is coming good, but twice against United in the last year or so he has been anonymous for most of the game (FA Cup Semi Final and United at Old Trafford this season), he was the same against United last season at OT. And again the same in the European Championship this Summer and against Ireland and Israel for France.

Either he is a choker, or he is only capable (ability wise) of playing well against weaker opposition. I'd prefer RvN any day.

His record against the top teams domestically (United, Chelsea, Liverpool) is better than any other striker on any of those teams. He is third top scorer of all time in the CL. His record for France since he became a centre forward is better than a goal every two games. How is this not performing against the "tougher opposition"?

If this is not performing against "tougher opposition", how does one do so? What strikers consistently perform well against "tougher opposition"?

cournioni

Who says Liverpool are a top team domestically?

How come he is not performing in the CL and World Cup/European Championship/Qualifiers then? Coincidence?

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Who says Liverpool are a top team domestically?

Consistent top 4/5 finishes would indicate that they are.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

How come he is not performing in the CL and World Cup/European Championship/Qualifiers then? Coincidence?

Can you not read? Or do you just choose not to?

Not performing in the CL, yet third top scorer of all time in it? How do you work that one out?

He was his countrys top scorer in WC98 and Euro200. Incidentally, France lifted the trophy on both occassions. He played less than 120minutes of football in WC2002. He scored twice in four games at Euro2004, hardly bad is it?

Coincidence? What, that you continue to ignore the facts when they are put in front of you? I have a different word for it.............

Gangsta

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Consistent top 4/5 finishes would indicate that they are.


Can you not read? Or do you just choose not to?

Not performing in the CL, yet third top scorer of all time in it? How do you work that one out?

He was his countrys top scorer in WC98 and Euro200. Incidentally, France lifted the trophy on both occassions. He played less than 120minutes of football in WC2002. He scored twice in four games at Euro2004, hardly bad is it?

Coincidence? What, that you continue to ignore the facts when they are put in front of you? I have a different word for it.............

well said. you have him beat.

PHB

Just look at the games in the CL and the Euro that he scores in, and not to be blunt, but he'll score against Sparta Prague, and score 3, and will not score against Milan.
Hence why hes top scorer, but that is totally irrelevant to the question is he a choker?

Big games, he doesnt turn up. IMO he'd make a great winger in big games

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

Just look at the games in the CL and the Euro that he scores in, and not to be blunt, but he'll score against Sparta Prague, and score 3, and will not score against Milan.

That sounds more like Van Nistelrooy than Henry to me to be honest.

Last year he got two away from home at Inter, two in the last 16 at home to Celta Vigo, one away from home in Kiev. This year he got one away at Panathonaikos and PSV. The Chelsea tie last year aside they are pretty much all the big games that Arsenal have played in the CL recently. Am I missing something???

/edit

Ive just checked the previous season too, where he scored away at PSV (2), Dortmund, Roma (3), and Valencia.

PHB wrote:

Hence why hes top scorer, but that is totally irrelevant to the question is he a choker?

What exactly is a "choker"? Since it has just been proven that Henry obviously does show his worth in the big games, by producing goals has a new definition of "choker" been invented?

PHB wrote:

Big games, he doesnt turn up. IMO he'd make a great winger in big games

As I said, his strike rate against the big teams domestically is the best in comparison to any other player. He scores regularly in the big games in Europe, as pointed out above. He has been his countrys top scorer in their two recent international successes. What more do you want?

The Muppet

Jivin Turkey wrote:

That sounds more like Van Nistelrooy than Henry to me to be honest.

I don't see why you have to bring RVN into this thread but as you have you should have a look
here before comparing him to Henry.

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

I don't see why you have to bring RVN into this thread but as you have you should have a look
here before comparing him to Henry.

And a marvelous record he has in the CL, about ten or twelve goals more than Henry yet he is not considered a "choker".

I just mentioned his name in response to a claim that Henry would be likely to score three against Sparta Prague and draw blanks against Milan. When in fact I remember RvN scoring four against Prague and Henry getting two goals in the San Siro against Inter, three in the Stadio Olympico against Roma, and also scoring in Arsenals victory over Juventus at Highbury.

jank

Jesus christ is this thread still going!

What is it lately about bashing henry. I keep hearing claims that "he is a choker" or "the premiership makes him good" etc etc etc

What is a choker exactly??
If you want to talk about choking how about rasing the stakes a little

IMO the biggest choker of them all was Cantona. What did he do in europe or for france!

Did I just open a can worms.... eh no my point is that one set of fans will claim cantona to be one of the best player of all time others may share the same view as I. Its the same with all players and its the same now.

However currently he has 15 goals in 18 games in the league and twice in a row got voted to be one of the top three players in the world

taking this in mind, all international coaches are idiots and boards.ie have the most intelligent fans anywhere or maybe just maybe he is actually a top world class player.....hmmmm...?

Did you notice the word world by the way

cournioni

Cantona's record was 5 goals in 16 appearances in the CL for Manchester United.

His record for France was 20 goals in 43 games for a poor French side.

That isn't bad considering he wasn't even an out and out striker.

eirebhoy

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Cantona's record was 5 goals in 16 appearances in the CL for Manchester United.

His record for France was 20 goals in 43 games for a poor French side.

That isn't bad considering he wasn't even an out and out striker.

C'mon, you just dismissed Jivin's stats out of hand.

The Muppet

FFS can we not discuss anything without it decending into the usual Arsena;/United crap. This thread was started about Henry by a fellow national of his who has no alegience to Man U AFAIK so why does it have to descend into the tit for tat childish rubbish which will undoubtably be closed.

If you want to discuss Cantona or any other player start a thread on it and stop trying to turn this one into a slagging match by taking it off topic .

I would urge fellow United supportes not to fall for this one again. Anytime a thread starts here that is derogatory about Arsenal; It is dragged the same way by the same people and the mods end up with no option but to close it.

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Can you not read? Or do you just choose not to?

Not performing in the CL, yet third top scorer of all time in it? How do you work that one out?

He was his countrys top scorer in WC98 and Euro200. Incidentally, France lifted the trophy on both occassions. He played less than 120minutes of football in WC2002. He scored twice in four games at Euro2004, hardly bad is it?

Coincidence? What, that you continue to ignore the facts when they are put in front of you? I have a different word for it...

OK, he scored 3 goals at World Cup '98 and 3 at Euro 2000, I'll give him that. He is also as you say, third top scorer of all time in the CL, which he also deserves credit for. I never said he was a bad striker, I said I'd prefer RvN.

He played less that 120 minutes because he was sent off in WC 2002 out of frustration. Why did he do this? Was he cracking up? Yes he did score two goals in Euro 2004, but should he not be doing better for one of the "best strikers in the world"?

Ignorance of facts? I think not.

Take it

'the muppet' I think you will find that it was a manu fan who brought up RvN in the first place

Jivin Turkey

What you did say was:

PORNAPSTER wrote:

In the CL and Internationally the defenders are far better and can cope with him easily enough.

and

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Either he is a choker, or he is only capable (ability wise) of playing well against weaker opposition.

Now you are admitting:

PORNAPSTER wrote:

OK, he scored 3 goals at World Cup '98 and 3 at Euro 2000, I'll give him that. He is also as you say, third top scorer of all time in the CL, which he also deserves credit for. I never said he was a bad striker, I said I'd prefer RvN.

Im sorry when you say something like "Either he is a choker, or he is only capable (ability wise) of playing well against weaker opposition" I would consider that labelling him a bad striker (in world terms which is what we are talking about).

I have also pointed out to PHB that the goals he scores in the CL regularly come against "big" opposition, in away matches.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

He played less that 120 minutes because he was sent off in WC 2002 out of frustration. Why did he do this? Was he cracking up? Yes he did score two goals in Euro 2004, but should he not be doing better for one of the "best strikers in the world"?

Is every player not allowed get frustrated from time to time? The whole France team was a shambles, the strikers got frustrated because the team was weak and they got no ball.

And as regards Euro2004, France were again crap, but he still managed two goals, got taken down for a match winning penalty against England. And I might be mistaken here but did he get fouled for the free kick that Zidance scored? Thats not that bad a return to be honest.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Ignorance of facts? I think not.

Thats debatable.

One final question do you think Henry is a "choker" who can only perform against weaker opposition? Or is he a world class striker who has proven through his achievements over the last six years that he is up there with the best?

eirebhoy

The Muppet wrote:

FFS can we not discuss anything without it decending into the usual Arsena;/United crap. This thread was started about Henry by a fellow national of his who has no alegience to Man U AFAIK so why does it have to descend into the tit for tat childish rubbish which will undoubtably be closed.

If you want to discuss Cantona or any other player start a thread on it and stop trying to turn this one into a slagging match by taking it off topic .

I would urge fellow United supportes not to fall for this one again. Anytime a thread starts here that is derogatory about Arsenal; It is dragged the same way by the same people and the mods end up with no option but to close it.

Any particular reason why I was quoted?

The Muppet

eirebhoy wrote:

Any particular reason why I was quoted?

I was going to reply to that and other posts but decided against it. Sorry about that , I will remove the quote now.

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Im sorry when you say something like "Either he is a choker, or he is only capable (ability wise) of playing well against weaker opposition" I would consider that labelling him a bad striker (in world terms which is what we are talking about).

What teams has he scored goals against in world terms then so? I don't seem to remember him contributing in any of the finals he's played in.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I have also pointed out to PHB that the goals he scores in the CL regularly come against "big" opposition, in away matches.

Big opposition doesn't exactly mean good teams. When he scored his hattrick against Inter their form was at an all time low they had sacked their manager (Hector Cuper) and Vieiri was fighting with everyone at the club. You have to remember that.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Is every player not allowed get frustrated from time to time? The whole France team was a shambles, the strikers got frustrated because the team was weak and they got no ball.

You're making excuses for him now. We all know that Henry throws his rattle and dummy around whenever anything goes wrong, even if he was the one missing the chances. Any time Arsenal have been beaten by United he always tried to shove the blame onto others.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And as regards Euro2004, France were again crap, but he still managed two goals, got taken down for a match winning penalty against England. And I might be mistaken here but did he get fouled for the free kick that Zidance scored? Thats not that bad a return to be honest.

Niall Quinn got a penalty against Spain in WC 2002 along with an assist against Germany. Does that make him a world class striker? Just because Henry got two goals against a poor Swiss team and a penalty against England doesn't make him the greatest striker in the world.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

One final question do you think Henry is a "choker" who can only perform against weaker opposition? Or is he a world class striker who has proven through his achievements over the last six years that he is up there with the best?

Never said he wasn't up among the best, but the best can be a broad subject. He is not the best. He hasn't scored in big games, which is what matters.

vorbis

in fairness, now no striker in the world stands up to the scrutiny you're on about. At international level he has contributed heavily to two international triumphs and had 2 other poor ones. That would be imo comparable to any other striker. In the CL, he's scored goals in most of the Arsenal's big matches.

That again is comparable to any other player including Ronaldinho. So I would say that there is no way that you can call Henry a choker unless you're calling every other player in the world a choker.

cournioni

vorbis wrote:

in fairness, now no striker in the world stands up to the scrutiny you're on about. At international level he has contributed heavily to two international triumphs and had 2 other poor ones. That would be imo comparable to any other striker. In the CL, he's scored goals in most of the Arsenal's big matches.

One man. Ronaldo.

gandalf

Jank stick to the topic at hand or I will be banning you !!!!

This is not a forum to see who can piss the furthest or highest. If you want to discuss Eric Cantona or any other footballer other than "Thierry is God" then start a new thread.

lili

gandalf wrote:

Jank stick to the topic at hand or I will be banning you !!!!

This is not a forum to see who can piss the furthest or highest. If you want to discuss Eric Cantona or any other footballer other than "Thierry is God" then start a new thread.

gandalf, i hope you are not like your avatar:D

well, i opened this thread because in another site i use to go, there is maybe like 10 threads about him. choker or not, this guy don't let people cold.

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

What teams has he scored goals against in world terms then so? I don't seem to remember him contributing in any of the finals he's played in.

In the 2000 EC his goals came against Denmark, Czech Republic and Portugal. Hardly whipping boys. His goals in the WC98 came against, Saudi Arabia and South Africa.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Big opposition doesn't exactly mean good teams.

Every time it is proven to you that he has scored in a big game you move the goals posts and say "well its not actually". Im sure if you analysed all the goals that Raul or RvN have scored in the CL we could knock a few of them off the list as not counting because the form Team X had going into the game.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

When he scored his hattrick against Inter their form was at an all time low they had sacked their manager (Hector Cuper) and Vieiri was fighting with everyone at the club. You have to remember that.

I do remember that, but a game in the San Siro against Inter is a HUGE game no matter what the circumstances. Who is to say the players werent more fired up seeing as they would want to impress their new manager? And he only got two against Inter, the hattrick came away at Roma (so come on give us some excuse that discredits that ).

PORNAPSTER wrote:

You're making excuses for him now. We all know that Henry throws his rattle and dummy around whenever anything goes wrong, even if he was the one missing the chances. Any time Arsenal have been beaten by United he always tried to shove the blame onto others.

Im not making excuses, Im just highlighting that almost every player will throw a strop at some stage of their career when their team is chronically underperforming.

And as far as your little dig at the United Arsenal thing, I dont really recall Henry making any noises as regards unfairness or anything. Some other Arsenal staff yes, but not him.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Niall Quinn got a penalty against Spain in WC 2002 along with an assist against Germany. Does that make him a world class striker? Just because Henry got two goals against a poor Swiss team and a penalty against England doesn't make him the greatest striker in the world.

Again you are COMPLETELY missing the point. It doesnt make Quinn a world class striker. But please quote this and answer it in your next reply. Despite the fact that this is all Quinn did in the tournament, would you say that he had a relatively successful tournament?

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Never said he wasn't up among the best, but the best can be a broad subject. He is not the best.

No one here is saying he is the best. But you seem to be constantly knocking him despite the evidence of his goalscoring record on all fronts. Over the last three years he has consistently outscored many strikers who are considered the best in the world.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

He hasn't scored in big games, which is what matters.

How many times do you have to be shown this? Over his CL career, this year away at Panathonaikos and PSV, last year two away from home at Inter, two in the last 16 at home to Celta Vigo, one away from home in Kiev, the previous year away at PSV (2), Dortmund, Roma (3), and Valencia, EC200 semi final, EC2000 groups against Czech and Denmark, WC1998 groups (3), two against Chelsea this year, two against United last year, one against Chelsea last year, 7 goals in three games against Liverpool, Newcastle, and Leeds following Arsenal being dumped out of Europe and the Cup.

I could go on but to summarise for you, NO PLAYER ON ARSENALS, UNITEDS, CHELSEAS TEAM HAS A BETTER RECORD AGAINST THE OTHER TOP CLUBS DOMESTICALLY. IS EVERY OTHER DOMESTIC STRIKER A "CHOKER"?

PORNAPSTER wrote:

One man. Ronaldo.

One game. WC Final 1998. Is he a choker now?

And finally again Im not saying he is the best in the world, but Ill pose you the question again, and please answer it:

Do you think Henry is a "choker" who can only perform against weaker opposition? Or is he a world class striker who has proven through his achievements over the last six years that he is UP THERE with the best?