is henry a "choker"?

Gangsta · 22-12-2004 6:38pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

In the 2000 EC his goals came against Denmark, Czech Republic and Portugal. Hardly whipping boys. His goals in the WC98 came against, Saudi Arabia and South Africa.

Every time it is proven to you that he has scored in a big game you move the goals posts and say "well its not actually". Im sure if you analysed all the goals that Raul or RvN have scored in the CL we could knock a few of them off the list as not counting because the form Team X had going into the game.

I do remember that, but a game in the San Siro against Inter is a HUGE game no matter what the circumstances. Who is to say the players werent more fired up seeing as they would want to impress their new manager? And he only got two against Inter, the hattrick came away at Roma (so come on give us some excuse that discredits that ).

Im not making excuses, Im just highlighting that almost every player will throw a strop at some stage of their career when their team is chronically underperforming.

And as far as your little dig at the United Arsenal thing, I dont really recall Henry making any noises as regards unfairness or anything. Some other Arsenal staff yes, but not him.

Again you are COMPLETELY missing the point. It doesnt make Quinn a world class striker. But please quote this and answer it in your next reply. Despite the fact that this is all Quinn did in the tournament, would you say that he had a relatively successful tournament?

No one here is saying he is the best. But you seem to be constantly knocking him despite the evidence of his goalscoring record on all fronts. Over the last three years he has consistently outscored many strikers who are considered the best in the world.

How many times do you have to be shown this? Over his CL career, this year away at Panathonaikos and PSV, last year two away from home at Inter, two in the last 16 at home to Celta Vigo, one away from home in Kiev, the previous year away at PSV (2), Dortmund, Roma (3), and Valencia, EC200 semi final, EC2000 groups against Czech and Denmark, WC1998 groups (3), two against Chelsea this year, two against United last year, one against Chelsea last year, 7 goals in three games against Liverpool, Newcastle, and Leeds following Arsenal being dumped out of Europe and the Cup.

I could go on but to summarise for you, NO PLAYER ON ARSENALS, UNITEDS, CHELSEAS TEAM HAS A BETTER RECORD AGAINST THE OTHER TOP CLUBS DOMESTICALLY. IS EVERY OTHER DOMESTIC STRIKER A "CHOKER"?

One game. WC Final 1998. Is he a choker now?

And finally again Im not saying he is the best in the world, but Ill pose you the question again, and please answer it:

Do you think Henry is a "choker" who can only perform against weaker opposition? Or is he a world class striker who has proven through his achievements over the last six years that he is UP THERE with the best?

haha, this guy is too good. 100% correct. Henry isn't the best in the world but he is a WORLD CLASS striker.

cournioni · 23-12-2004 12:39am

Jivin Turkey wrote:

In the 2000 EC his goals came against Denmark, Czech Republic and Portugal. Hardly whipping boys. His goals in the WC98 came against, Saudi Arabia and South Africa.

Right I'll give you that, he scored against three decent teams at Euro 2000. But the goals in 98 were against whipping boys.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Every time it is proven to you that he has scored in a big game you move the goals posts and say "well its not actually". Im sure if you analysed all the goals that Raul or RvN have scored in the CL we could knock a few of them off the list as not counting because the form Team X had going into the game.

That is fair enough. They are still better strikers than Henry, IMO. They have scored in bigger games.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I do remember that, but a game in the San Siro against Inter is a HUGE game no matter what the circumstances. Who is to say the players werent more fired up seeing as they would want to impress their new manager? And he only got two against Inter, the hattrick came away at Roma (so come on give us some excuse that discredits that ).

No I saw that game, and he did play well. I'll give him that. But still those teams are no great shakes in Europe. When was the last time they were challenging for something.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Im not making excuses, Im just highlighting that almost every player will throw a strop at some stage of their career when their team is chronically underperforming.

I can think of a few that haven't.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And as far as your little dig at the United Arsenal thing, I dont really recall Henry making any noises as regards unfairness or anything. Some other Arsenal staff yes, but not him.

He was throwing tantrums at fellow Arsenal players for not passing to feet after missing a header that was put on a plate for him to score. And in other games he was throwing tantrums towards United players after he hardly had a touch of the ball in each game.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Again you are COMPLETELY missing the point. It doesnt make Quinn a world class striker. But please quote this and answer it in your next reply. Despite the fact that this is all Quinn did in the tournament, would you say that he had a relatively successful tournament?

No he did not have a relatively successful tournament, IMO. But maybe that is down to Ireland being a "shambles, weak and not giving him the ball". See where I'm going?

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No one here is saying he is the best. But you seem to be constantly knocking him despite the evidence of his goalscoring record on all fronts. Over the last three years he has consistently outscored many strikers who are considered the best in the world.

Yes I will continue to do so until I see him perform against a big team. Then I'll stop knocking him.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

How many times do you have to be shown this? Over his CL career, this year away at Panathonaikos and PSV, last year two away from home at Inter, two in the last 16 at home to Celta Vigo, one away from home in Kiev, the previous year away at PSV (2), Dortmund, Roma (3), and Valencia, EC200 semi final, EC2000 groups against Czech and Denmark, WC1998 groups (3), two against Chelsea this year, two against United last year, one against Chelsea last year, 7 goals in three games against Liverpool, Newcastle, and Leeds following Arsenal being dumped out of Europe and the Cup.

Now look at those teams and tell me how many of them have won a CL (or come close to) or the Premiership in the last number of years. Point proven.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I could go on but to summarise for you, NO PLAYER ON ARSENALS, UNITEDS, CHELSEAS TEAM HAS A BETTER RECORD AGAINST THE OTHER TOP CLUBS DOMESTICALLY. IS EVERY OTHER DOMESTIC STRIKER A "CHOKER"?

Evidence?

Jivin Turkey wrote:

One game. WC Final 1998. Is he a choker now?

And finally again Im not saying he is the best in the world, but Ill pose you the question again, and please answer it:

Do you think Henry is a "choker" who can only perform against weaker opposition? Or is he a world class striker who has proven through his achievements over the last six years that he is UP THERE with the best?

I wouldn't rate him, no. Kleberson and Roque Junior have achieved alot at Brazil, doesn't mean crap. They're both shít.

jank · 23-12-2004 12:53am

Sorry gandalf didnt mean to offened anybody i was just trying to make a new point that would show how useless this thread is. Every player under the highest scrunity can be labelled as a choker even ronaldo because of his poor world cup final. I only choose cantona as an example really, should have choosen some player non Man U related

Jivin has said it all imo but also pornapster remember he was voted man of the match in the euro 200 final.

smemon · 23-12-2004 2:16am

the only reason henry isnt admired by the rest of the world is because of his arrogance and cockyness on the pitch. he acts like the hard man with refs etc.., off the pitch he seems like a decent, modest bloke.

he's a fake and its a shame he puts on an act for the cameras. his ego gets to him imo. for example when he scores a goal he'll do something stupid like act all cool and show no emotion. plus he hassles refs over decisions which other players would let go. he goes ott.

im an admirer of his ability at times but his arrogance and fake image destroy him for me, id imagine there are a few that feel the same.

The Rooster · 23-12-2004 10:28am

smemon wrote:

the only reason henry isnt admired by the rest of the world is because of his arrogance and cockyness on the pitch. he acts like the hard man with refs etc.., off the pitch he seems like a decent, modest bloke.

Absolutely right!

And add "Moaner When Things Arent Going Great".

Brilliant footballer, super finisher, but hard to like if you dont support Arsenal - and no surprise that many supporters of Arsenal's biggest rivals hate the guy, and therefore dont give him the credit his ability deserves.

BaZmO* · 23-12-2004 10:40am

PORNAPSTER wrote:

He was throwing tantrums at fellow Arsenal players for not passing to feet after missing a header that was put on a plate for him to score. And in other games he was throwing tantrums towards United players after he hardly had a touch of the ball in each game.

And King Roy never does that?!

smemon wrote:

for example when he scores a goal he'll do something stupid like act all cool and show no emotion. plus he hassles refs over decisions which other players would let go. he goes ott.

And King Roy never does that?!

Personally I'm a big fan of Henry and Roy. They are both World Class and winners. End of!

This thread is going nowhere tbh!!!

B.

cournioni · 23-12-2004 10:47am

BaZmO* wrote:

And King Roy never does that?!

And King Roy never does that?!

He shouts at people for playing a bad pass and not when he is totally at fault for missing a guilt edged chance from 6 yards. In other words when it IS someone elses fault. There is a difference.

And yes, King Roy does show emotion. Whenever he scores he always runs towards the fans with his hand up in the air or whatever. Who doesn't do that? Henry just stands there like an asshole thinking he's smooth and cool. :rolleyes:

The Rooster · 23-12-2004 11:21am

PORNAPSTER wrote:

He shouts at people for playing a bad pass and not when he is totally at fault for missing a guilt edged chance from 6 yards. In other words when it IS someone elses fault. There is a difference.

Actually Roy doesnt really do that. If its an obvious mistake, Keano rarely says anything. If a guy makes an obvious mistake, he'll know himself he's fecked up - he doesnt need anyone shouting at him. Only idiots shout at lads who've made obvious stupid mistakes (an easy way of identifying a sh!te captain). Keane knows this. The worst Keane will do is turn away and shake his head, or give a stonewall look. If its someone he likes, such as JOSH, then he'll actually go over and give him a pat on the back, and try to help his confidence.

On the other hand, if someone makes a mistake that they get away with, or they look like they dont realise or dont care that they've made a mistake, then Keano will lay in with all guns blazing!

cournioni · 23-12-2004 12:36pm

I was actually talking about Henry, he missed a header from 6 yards in the last minute of a match. He then turned around and gave Lauren a right roasting for not playing the ball to his feet. He was persisting with it the whole way down the tunnel. The next day it was in the papers that there was a scuffle between Henry and Lauren in the tunnel.

All due to Henry missing a header and trying to make one of his own team mates look bad so he doesn't take the blame. The guy is an asshole.

What you said about Keane is right Rooster. That is why Keane has such a great influence on United and Ireland.

gandalf · 23-12-2004 1:03pm

lili wrote:

gandalf, i hope you are not like your avatar:D

well, i opened this thread because in another site i use to go, there is maybe like 10 threads about him. choker or not, this guy don't let people cold.

Naw Chucky is a humanitarian compared to me

I think Henry still needs to prove himself at the International stage properly. He is an excellent forward player but is not a goal poacher and never has been. Arsenal need a player like Morientes, an out and out goal poacher who can slot goals from the 6 yard box on a regular basis.

The Rooster · 23-12-2004 1:16pm

PORNAPSTER wrote:

What you said about Keane is right Rooster.

All credit to me

___________________________________

Happy Christmas to all

Jivin Turkey · 23-12-2004 1:41pm

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Right I'll give you that, he scored against three decent teams at Euro 2000. But the goals in 98 were against whipping boys.

Yes but you are still claiming he hasnt scored against "big teams". Im just after showing you he has. Obviously he has scored agasinst SOME goals smaller teams.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

That is fair enough. They are still better strikers than Henry, IMO. They have scored in bigger games.

Right, Im sorry its come to this. What "big games" has RvN scored in? At least then Ill be able to have some definition of what a "big game" is because Im exhausted proving and proving to you that Henry has done it.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

No I saw that game, and he did play well. I'll give him that. But still those teams are no great shakes in Europe. When was the last time they were challenging for something.

How many things are you going to "give him" before you cop on and realise he is an amazing player.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I can think of a few that haven't.

Name one.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

He was throwing tantrums at fellow Arsenal players for not passing to feet after missing a header that was put on a plate for him to score. And in other games he was throwing tantrums towards United players after he hardly had a touch of the ball in each game.

You have one example there. Players are always giving stick to the opposition in United/Arsenal games, dont single him out. So what if he was giving out to Lauren, he wanted the ball to feet, thats his strength. As has been pointed out, Keane gives out yards to team mates constantly. Yes some of it is justified, but he makes mistakes himself, does anyone give out to him? But I wouldnt consider this a weakness in Keanes game, in fact its a strength. But of course since we are talking about Henry its one of the reasons why he is not world class :rolleyes:

PORNAPSTER wrote:

No he did not have a relatively successful tournament, IMO. But maybe that is down to Ireland being a "shambles, weak and not giving him the ball". See where I'm going?

No I dont. If anything Im understanding this as making a point against your own argument. Im also sure you are one of the only people here to think that Quinn wasnt relatively successful during the world cup.

But besides going back to what I was saying, I dont understand how a striker can score two goals and win a penalty for his team in four games and yet still have a crap tournament.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Yes I will continue to do so until I see him perform against a big team. Then I'll stop knocking him.

Well go out and watch some football with your eyes open then. Ive proven to you time and time again. Did someone even say he was the MOTM in the EC200 final???

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Now look at those teams and tell me how many of them have won a CL (or come close to) or the Premiership in the last number of years. Point proven.

Dortmund and Valencia have both won the CL in recent years. PSV, Celta Vigo, Kiev, Roma and Inter are regular fixtures in the knockout stages/second group phase.

As regards donestic stuff, do you know how stupid what you said sounds? "How many of them have won a CL (or come close to) or the Premiership in the last number of years?" What are you going to criticise him because he has only scored against one premier league winner? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Anyway to humour you, United have won premier leagues, Chelsea and Liverpool have both been runners up in recent years.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Evidence?

I know this for a fact. And Ill stick my neck out and if anyone can prove me wrong Ill take it on the chin. Think about it. Im sure we can rule anyone from Chelsea out as they dont have a goal grabbing striker and havnt done for a while. So its down to Henry and RvN. Henry already has two against Chelsea this year, one last year, two against United last year (at Highbury and in the CS), I can think of two against United when Barthez cocked up and the one where he flicked it up and volleyed it. Hattrick against Liverpool last year. Im up to eleven already and thats off the top of my head.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I wouldn't rate him, no. Kleberson and Roque Junior have achieved alot at Brazil, doesn't mean crap. They're both shít.

So you dont rate Henry? :rolleyes:

Its different between those Brazilians and him. He has individual accolades. Like WORLD PLAYER OF THE YEAR RUNNER UP. He scored 30+ goals individually for five years! They were cogs in a huge collective team, there is no comparison.

When it comes down to it, when I prove to you he has done it in "big games" you raise the bar on what "big games" are. Dont worry Ill apply the same scrutiny to RvN (who I agree is a world class player and no choker) when you show me the "big games" he has scored in.

Gangsta · 23-12-2004 3:13pm

gandalf wrote:

Naw Chucky is a humanitarian compared to me

I think Henry still needs to prove himself at the International stage properly. He is an excellent forward player but is not a goal poacher and never has been. Arsenal need a player like Morientes, an out and out goal poacher who can slot goals from the 6 yard box on a regular basis.

yes I'd like Wenger to make a bid for Morientes. I just love that player, he's got everything Arsenal need.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I was actually talking about Henry, he missed a header from 6 yards in the last minute of a match. He then turned around and gave Lauren a right roasting for not playing the ball to his feet. He was persisting with it the whole way down the tunnel. The next day it was in the papers that there was a scuffle between Henry and Lauren in the tunnel.

All due to Henry missing a header and trying to make one of his own team mates look bad so he doesn't take the blame. The guy is an asshole.

What you said about Keane is right Rooster. That is why Keane has such a great influence on United and Ireland.

Actually, Lauren took a shot and plonked it, didn't he? I'm pretty sure that's wat happened. Then Henry gave out coz he was in a better position. The reported tunnel incident was never proved and Henry came out and said that it was a lie.

Gary Neville I heard from somewhere (I think) said they had a scuffle. 'nuff said.........Gary Nevile

Jivin Turkey · 23-12-2004 4:36pm

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Henry just stands there like an asshole thinking he's smooth and cool. :rolleyes:

And this is another reason as to why he is not world class. Yet when Eric Cantona does it he is a "legend".

Im not asking you to like the guy, Im asking you to admit to yourself that he is one of the best.

cournioni · 23-12-2004 5:48pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And this is another reason as to why he is not world class. Yet when Eric Cantona does it he is a "legend".

Im not asking you to like the guy, Im asking you to admit to yourself that he is one of the best.

Never said that was the reason why he was or wasn't world class, I said that he is an asshole for doing it. Cantona is indeed a legend.

I'm saying to you that I do not think that he is one of the best. That is all, like him or not I don't think he is one of the best. I think he is overrated. He's a good player, but I can think of plenty of players I'd have in my team before him.

Gangsta · 23-12-2004 6:18pm

we're not discussing whether pornapster thinks henry is an asshole or not. even tho jivin is right with your hypocrosy. stick to wats being asked.

cournioni · 23-12-2004 6:48pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Yes but you are still claiming he hasnt scored against "big teams". Im just after showing you he has. Obviously he has scored agasinst SOME goals smaller teams.

Not convinced. He still goes missing in most of the European matches I've seen him play.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Right, Im sorry its come to this. What "big games" has RvN scored in? At least then Ill be able to have some definition of what a "big game" is because Im exhausted proving and proving to you that Henry has done it.

Well for starters, he scored four vital goals in order to get Holland to the semi-finals of Euro 2004, considering that Holland were a poor team this year. Henry has never scored 4 goals at any one international tournament.

2001-2002:
Three goals against Deportivo. Two against Newcastle. And a goal in the CL semi final. But all in all 35 club goals in his first season and 4 international goals.

2002-2003:
He scored a hattrick against Newcastle when they were considered as one of the Premiership title favourites. Two goals against a "top" Liverpool team. Two goals against Deportivo. Two goals against Juventus (over two matches). He's scored against Real Madrid in the Bernabeu and at OT (two goals against the CL holders). And three goals against a Leverkusen side that got to the CL final the year before (over two matches). All in all 44 club goals and 3 international goals.

I don't have the stats for 2003-2004, but I know that he scored 30 club goals and 4 international goals that season.

He has been top scorer in the Champions League with 8 goals in 6 matches (maybe less), 4 in one game, and two away to Lyon. Considering he has been injured for much of the start of the season that isn't bad.

Happy?

Jivin Turkey wrote:

How many things are you going to "give him" before you cop on and realise he is an amazing player.

Because he isn't an "amazing player" because I don't have any more to "give him". He's overrated.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You have one example there. Players are always giving stick to the opposition in United/Arsenal games, dont single him out. So what if he was giving out to Lauren, he wanted the ball to feet, thats his strength. As has been pointed out, Keane gives out yards to team mates constantly. Yes some of it is justified, but he makes mistakes himself, does anyone give out to him? But I wouldnt consider this a weakness in Keanes game, in fact its a strength. But of course since we are talking about Henry its one of the reasons why he is not world class :rolleyes:

Yes players shout at others during the game. But not to the extent that Henry gave to Lauren on that occasion. Fact is that Henry missed an easy header from six yards and turned around and blamed it on someone else.

When players know they've made a mistake they'll hold their hands up (like Keane and many other players). But Henry on many occasions tried to shove the blame onto some of his fellow players. Read what Rooster posted about Keane giving out to his fellow players.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No I dont. If anything Im understanding this as making a point against your own argument. Im also sure you are one of the only people here to think that Quinn wasnt relatively successful during the world cup.

But besides going back to what I was saying, I dont understand how a striker can score two goals and win a penalty for his team in four games and yet still have a crap tournament.

You tell me. I think he had a crap tournament, who had little to offer in 3 of the 4 games he played in it.

My point was that Quinn made chances for others around him, he actually contributed to some of Ireland's results although it was not a successful WC, he still done his best to help Ireland progress. Where as Henry offered very little other than a few annoying tantrums towards his team mates.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Well go out and watch some football with your eyes open then. Ive proven to you time and time again. Did someone even say he was the MOTM in the EC2000 final???

You have proven nothing to me. I don't know if he got MOTM in the EC2000 final, if so it was the wrong decision. He contributed very little to that match as the Italian's totally shut the French out. I don't think he assisted any of the goals if I remember correctly.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Dortmund and Valencia have both won the CL in recent years. PSV, Celta Vigo, Kiev, Roma and Inter are regular fixtures in the knockout stages/second group phase.

Valencia have never won the CL, they've been to the final twice, never won it. Dortmund won it 8 years ago, and have been in it very little since. PSV are an average European side, Roma have not been a regular fixture in the knockout stages, Kiev are a good solid side, as for Celta Vigo?!! You really are having a laugh!

Jivin Turkey wrote:

As regards donestic stuff, do you know how stupid what you said sounds? "How many of them have won a CL (or come close to) or the Premiership in the last number of years?" What are you going to criticise him because he has only scored against one premier league winner? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Anyway to humour you, United have won premier leagues, Chelsea and Liverpool have both been runners up in recent years.

Well alot of what you are saying sounds very stupid to me too. Its just a matter of opinion.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I know this for a fact. And Ill stick my neck out and if anyone can prove me wrong Ill take it on the chin. Think about it. Im sure we can rule anyone from Chelsea out as they dont have a goal grabbing striker and havnt done for a while. So its down to Henry and RvN. Henry already has two against Chelsea this year, one last year, two against United last year (at Highbury and in the CS), I can think of two against United when Barthez cocked up and the one where he flicked it up and volleyed it. Hattrick against Liverpool last year. Im up to eleven already and thats off the top of my head.

Do you really want me to get out Ruud's stats against those clubs again? Because I will. And you will be proven wrong.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

So you dont rate Henry? :rolleyes:

Its different between those Brazilians and him. He has individual accolades. Like WORLD PLAYER OF THE YEAR RUNNER UP. He scored 30+ goals individually for five years! They were cogs in a huge collective team, there is no comparison.

When it comes down to it, when I prove to you he has done it in "big games" you raise the bar on what "big games" are. Dont worry Ill apply the same scrutiny to RvN (who I agree is a world class player and no choker) when you show me the "big games" he has scored in.

Five years my arse, it has been the last three or two and a half years at the most.

He has not scored in "big games", read what I have said above. Maybe its just a thing with you Liverpool fans but those teams wouldn't be the cream of Europe if you know what I mean. Please read the list of goals I have posted above.

gandalf · 23-12-2004 8:12pm

OK thread closed. Typical anything involving Arsenal or Man Utd. turns into a who can piss the highest match !!!

Lads you are starting to irritate me and you know what happens when you do that !

is henry a "choker"?

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