Irish Euro Skeptics

Draco

So, now that we are going to become a net contributor to the EU, people like Sumo DeValera are saying we should move away from Europe because it is having a bad influence on our culture. We excuse me, but I'd rather a growing adapting culture than the stagant, twee, backward, pig-ignorant shambles that her Granddad put forward. Being part of the EU has only benifited us, and now we can give something back, Sumo comes out and starts bad mouthing them. Wagon.

Draco

C B

They don't believe in parlimentary democracy and would not take there seats if elected (this is the main difference between the SWP and Joe Higgins Socialist Party). I only have this in print copy and I couldn't be arsed typing it all out.

I Think its a bit of a kop out to say that the current government are Fu(king the country up. They have done some good things and the country is better of now, in many ways, than it was a number of years ago. But there still are huge solvable problems in the country such as homelessness, public transport, hospital waiting lists, increased levels of racism, and inflation. Some of these issues are not mutually exclusive i.e. spending on health care and housing will drive inflation.
Asking those who seek your vote exactly what they are going to do about these issues is infinitly more constructive than a protest vote. (If the SWP reflect your opinion on the issues that matter to you then by all means vote for them)

C B

Castor,
Sorry for staying off topic. (you can delete this when you've read it, cause it doesn't really relate to Draco's question.)

My source is a Socialist Party Pamphlet entitled "The Struggle for Socialism Today". This publishes a series of correspondance between the SP and the SWP regarding cooperation in last local elections. The SP refused on the grounds that the SWP have continually critisised the SP's parlimentary approach. In this correspondance Kevin Wingfield of the SWP set out their policy in realtion to parliment,

"The SWP believes, along with Lenin in his famous pamphlet THE STATE AND REVOLUTION, that the existing state is organised to suit the interests of big business. Its structures cannot be adapted by workers for their use. Instead it must be smashed and replaced by a workers council (my emphasis)

TwoShedsJackson

Hmmm, you live and learn, thanks CB. Were these 'structures' or 'worker's council' described in any detail?

C B

The structures refer to parliment and other parifinalia of modern liberal democracy.
The workers councils are "directly elected deputies from workplaces etc."

Shiminay

Being a part of the EU has been fantastic for our country. Being from Mayo, I've seen it's benefits BIG TIME! We've had new roads, a library, schools, a hospital, a police station, fire stations etc all because of it. That's just in Mayo. Makes me happy to see it

The Euro on the other hand. well, it's not been kind to us at all. Our currency is very low (see Castor's post about the value of the dollar a few years ago).

A debate mightn't be abad idea, but for the moment, I'd be in favour of sticking with it and for contributing some of our surplus' to it.

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
My page of stuff

C B

Originally posted by Kharn:

I'd be in favour of sticking with it and for contributing some of our surplus' to it.

Hear, Hear.

I'm currently working on a project trying to assess how much we spend as a nation on environmental protection and without the EU the answer would be almost zero.

But in relation to the Euro its not all bad. We are net exporters and all export companies are now much more competitive in the global economy.

Its also cheaper for other EU countries to import from us rather than the US, which helps a booming software industry. and aids a fundemental reallignment of our economy by increasing our trading relations with other EU nations which is in our long term economic interest.

UNIFLU

Originally posted by C B:

But in relation to the Euro its not all bad. We are net exporters and all export companies are now much more competitive in the global economy.

Its also cheaper for other EU countries to import from us rather than the US, which helps a booming software industry. and aids a fundemental reallignment of our economy by increasing our trading relations with other EU nations which is in our long term economic interest.

Damn straight this country has seen unprecedented growth in the technology market over the years and it still grows at a staggering pace. Also, it is indeed unfortunate that the value of our currency has weakened but the levels of income have risen across the board at a greater rate that the punt has devalued so all in all we havent come out too bad.


[This message has been edited by UNIFLU (edited 20-09-2000).]

Blitzkrieger

NSF001
SMASHTHESTATE




"Worker's council"? Sounds nice but there's bound to be corruption in that too.

C B

I don't support it I was just giving castor the info he wanted

I think the Dail can work well if people cared more. Corruption only happens when people stop looking.

Manach

My view, as some one who voted no to all previous euro-polls.
The economic side to the EU has indeed been of great benefit to Ireland. But remember it was originally an Economic Community, the future political-unity agenda is being imposed on us from outside.
2 points
1. The Irish-electorate know best for the country and not bureaucrats in Brussels.
2. DeValera what ever else you might say about him, did realise a Policy of Neutrality, which comes under increasing strain.

C B

I think that we do need to debate the evolving role of the EU rather than blindly accept it. I believe that the EU has had, and will contiue to have, a positive influence culturally and economically on this island. However the political nature of our realationship with the EU needs to be examined. It's institutional structures are becoming increasingly less democratic and representitive.

TwoShedsJackson

We have got a lot of good out of our time in teh EU so far e.g. a semi-decent road system in some areas - now that it is time to start giving back you get people moaning and whinging - a typically Irish attitude if you ask me.

On the other hand, our being linked to the Euro is but one reason that inflation is shooting up so fast, the dollar is almost at parity with Irish punts now - when i went to the States three years ago it was nearly 1.80.

That and thick headed management by the current government - Ahern's style seems to be to just push blindly on and ignore any and all criticism or indeed sensible suggestions.

Looks like I'll be voting Socialist Worker again next election

C B

Originally posted by Castor Troy:


Looks like I'll be voting Socialist Worker again next election

Why vote for people who won't take their seats (also the SWP aren't to keen on the EU either)?

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by C B:
Why vote for people who won't take their seats (also the SWP aren't to keen on the EU either)?

Why vote for people who will continue to fu<k up the country? Also, I don't ever recall seeing anything about SWp not taking their seats - its more that they have no chance of being elected

btw I am entirely open to correction on this so if you can tell me where you read/saw that they would not take their seats if elected, let me know.

C B

Originally posted by Manach:

DeValera what ever else you might say about him, did realise a Policy of Neutrality, which comes under increasing strain.

ireland never had, does not have, and is unlikely to ever have a Policy of Neutrality . What DeValera gave us was a policy of anti-British involvement.

Von

2 Counter Points

1: The Irish electorate is evidently a bunch of clitwits who elect imbeciles and crooks as a matter of course.
2: De Valera also gave us a civil war and attempted to force his crazy, magic mushroom inspired vision of an Oirish utopia upon us; Comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and the like. ffs m8s!

As for Sile...what...are these bad influences on our culture? Personally, I approve of the swarms of hot European women swanning about everywhere. More I say.

TwoShedsJackson

I fully agree Von. Take the last election when Michael O'Leary, a known crook and liar stood for re-election in Tipperary North. One of the guys opposing him was on an anti-corruption platform: he got about 80 votes, O'Leary got over 11,000.

Until the strokers and cronyism is driven out of Irish politics this will continue. I beleive there is a saying 'a people get the government they deserve'.

As for Ireland's neutrality, C B is right in that was more a policy of doing whatever the Brits didnt like. Now we are in the PfP against the wishes of 75% of the population - brought in without a referendum in a full u-turn from Bertie's promises before the election.

C B

I agree with your points castor but the guys name is Lowry (I think the CEO of RYANAIR might get a bit piissed off if he thought you were accusing him of being a politican)

i also think it should be possible to sue political leaders for breach of contract. I mean at the last election Fianna Fail stated in its manifesto: if you put us in power we won't join PfP without a referendum. People accepted this pledge (god knows who these peeps are) at put the ****z in office, and what do they do they break their pledge. Surely this is breach of contract.

Manifestos have to be seen as offers and votes are aceptance. ergo a contract has been made with the nation.

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 21-09-2000).]

Dustaz

Originally posted by Von:
Where else in Europe would someone like Jackie Healy-Rae get elected?

I could be talkin thru me **** , but although he speaks for a grand total of 0 mins in the dail, doesnt he do good work for his constituency?

Von

His impressive "a lad in the pub told me so it must be true" style of politics would go down well with the French National Front..
http://www.independent.ie/2000/127/y42a.shtml

C B

Originally posted by Von:
His impressive "a lad in the pub told me so it must be true" style of politics would go down well with the French National Front..

except for one major difference which is highlighted in the piece you qoute he is not likely to force this issue just letting the idiots know "that he is not soft on the issue".
The NF on the otherhand a founded on the premise that blacks are inferior.
I dislike Jackie Healy-Rae but he's not a patch on the National Front ffs!!

TwoShedsJackson

From that Indo piece:

First, he claimed that 80,000 immigrants have arrived in Ireland, most of them off the backs of lorries. Where did he get this figure? He explains: ``Well, I am told'' (but he doesn't say who told him) ``that it is suggested'' (not stated, merely suggested by someone unknown) ``that in some paper'' (some newspaper, which he didn't read) ``that we have about eight thousand.''

And how does he make 80,000 out of that? It is the belief of Mr Healy-Rae that there are, he told the Irish Times, ``twenty times more than we are being told''. So it seems he took the 8,000 figure and multiplied it by 20. And somehow got 80,000.

This means that of the 80,000 immigrants who are here to take advantage of our social welfare, 72,000 have not notified the authorities, are not claiming the meagre benefits or looking to be housed. How they are to benefit by remaining underground is not at all clear.

He's an ignorant moron, and he is pandering to those of his constiuents who are also ignorant morons by sputing this sort of crap. He (and Ivor Callely of FF to name another example) know that there are votes in the 'send 'em back where they came from' style of rhetoric.

C B

Yeah Yeah Healy-Rae is a moron but there are morons elected everywhere.
This has gone a bit off topic what about the enlargement of the EU?

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

Von

Where else in Europe would someone like Jackie Healy-Rae get elected?

C B

Originally posted by Von:
Where else in Europe would someone like Jackie Healy-Rae get elected?

the National front get over 10% of the vote in France (give me Jackie any day)

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Its not how you fall, but how you land.

Manach

I for one simply adore Jackie's satorial elegance

Manach

Denmark 1
Euro 0

C B

Denmark -1
Euro -2

(but the final result will leave Denmark alot worse off)

TwoShedsJackson

Well the Euro is doing us fu<k all good atm, unless you enjoy higher prices and inflation all round.

And those clueless fools in FF will probably give us another giveaway Budget in a couple of months to get votes to stay in next time, regardless of the long term effects.

C B

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
Well the Euro is doing us fu<k all good atm, unless you enjoy higher prices and inflation all round.

as much as i loath to repeat myself the euro is good for exporters and does accelerate the shift in our import patterns away from the UK and towards our European partners which is in the long-term economic interests of the country.

Excelsior

cool topic. i was following this in denmark while the euro campaigning went on. even my lobbying couldnt dissuade them from staying out.
the euro is a good thing.