Penalty points challenge?

Andy Mc

Hi,

Got 2 points in the post last week and I am unsure whether to accept them or challenge them. I read in the Ireland on Sunday yesterday there is a good change that the DPP wont send challenges to court as the speed guns dont at the moment provide a print out of the speeding offence. A number of cases have already being thrown out on the basis of this.
Should I take my chances and challenge or bite the bullet and take the two points. Any views?

Gurgle

If you challenge the points and lose, you can get extra points and a bigger fine.

Then you can take a constitutional challenge on the issue of punishing people for trying to prove their innocence.

Good luck, and let us know.

Bogger77

Gurgle wrote:

If you challenge the points and lose, you can get extra points and a bigger fine.

Then you can take a constitutional challenge on the issue of punishing people for trying to prove their innocence.

None of this is true,
The penalty points for speeding is 4 points, if you plead guilty without the case having to go to court and waste court space/time, you get a reduction of 2 points. This is the same, as pleading guilty in any other court case with minimum sentences.

If Andy Mc is guilty of speeding, he should pay up, if he thinks he wasn't guilty, ie wasn't breaking the limit, mistaken ID, etc. then take it to court and challenge it.

Andy Mc

My point is that lots of people have challenged the flawed legislation and won and it appears that the DPP will no longer take anyone caught on a speed gun to court. so surely if that is the case and I challenge, the chances are it wont go to court and therefore no points and no fine.

landser

this is true, and a number were thrown out in ballina(?) last week. in addition, one was thrown out last week cos the garda in question hadn't been trained on the gun. the offender in question had been caught doing 78 in a 30 zone

Gurgle

Bogger77 wrote:

The penalty points for speeding is 4 points, if you plead guilty without the case having to go to court and waste court space/time, you get a reduction of 2 points.

semantics

edmund_f

If a number of them have been thrown out this would set a precidence?. Where is it possible to get a list of judgements from local courts that may be relevant?

Bogger77

Gurgle wrote:

semantics

Nope, it's the way it is.

I'm sick of people saying it's 2 points for speeding, and an increase to 4 for going to court.
it's not, it's 4 points, with a reduction for not going to court.

Semantics? more like pedantic

seamus

TBH, Andy Mc, if it was me, I wouldn't try to avoid them unless I knew I hadn't been caught. For example, if I received a ticket for speeding on the M50, I'd be 100% certain that I was innocent, since my bike doesn't go over 70mph (ignore the 60mph abortion bit, I don't drive there).

If, however, I received a ticket for doing 60mph on the N4 inbound, I wouldn't challenge it, since chances are, I was caught.

But you may be the kind of person who'd like to wriggle out of it, even when you're wrong.

edmund_f

correct, the 2 points are a reduction as by paying it you are pleading guilty to the 'alleged' offense, and as such get an offer Tesco would be proud of, 'take two points now and get two points off for free!', This sounds a bit ridiclous to me, i.e. if you break a law, the speed at which you admit to it proves you are less cupable for it?

regarding being a person who would like to 'wriggle' out of it, do not think doing 70-80 on a clear, straight dual carraigway justifies the same response as someone doing 70-80 on a country road, and old point i do know. Perhaps if a few more people 'wriggle' out of the 'soft' detections and cause the Garda some problems then they might spend a bit more time considering quality rather than quantity?.

landser

edmund_f wrote:

If a number of them have been thrown out this would set a precidence?. Where is it possible to get a list of judgements from local courts that may be relevant?

the district court cannot set a precedent and therefore no other district court is bound by it. further the judgements of the district court are unreported (officially) and all you can get are journo's reports

the law is an ass. if you can get out of it, do

Gurgle

landser wrote:

the law is an ass. if you can get out of it, do

amen

BrianD

I am not sure if the legislation is flawed or if our judges are flawed. This printed receipt thing that the judge ruled about is ridiculous. It's unfortunate that we don't have a means of removing these judges from the bench. His decision is clearly against the common good and will only lead to more deaths.

edmund_f

my personal opinion, but i think the thread is straying slightly?. If someone gets trapped in excess of the speed limit and brings it to court, will it get thrown out based on the fact that the gun reading cannot be independently verfied?. Or, again in my opinion, what are the loopholes regarding Garda trapping people on the roads.

Finally, perhaps the point that it is obivious that the Garda are trapping an ever increasing number of people, but the number of deaths are increasing, thus i doubt we can blame the judges, but perhaps we may look a bit more closely at where our hard earned tax euros are being spent regaring road safety, training and enforcement?

Gurgle

edmund_f wrote:

the Garda are trapping an ever increasing number of people, but the number of deaths are increasing

Oh my god, you mean not all road deaths are directly due to speeding ?

Maybe stupidity, incompetence, drunkeness and the spiderweb of donkey tracks we call a road network are a factor too ?

edmund_f

Gurgle,

Now you are getting the idea!, the days of holding 'boy racers' (Ahem*, car modifiers) up as being the root of all evil, and their reckless speeding being solely responsible for everything evil in our world (thought i did see Bin Laden driving a Galanza? ) are numbered. (IMHO anyone who spends 20-30K on improving a car will not then go out and systematically get themselves banned from driving?)

I think this tread is a symptom of this, i.e. if a person was caught for speeding where it is actually dangrous then they would probably have no problems paying the fine and taking the points, and consider themselves lucky to have gotten off lightly.

To come back to the point, what are the loopholes, there is a system of presidence in Ireland, how does that work, can it be used against the speed cameras?. Are there any alternatives?. If the Garda are using an unfair system against the general public, letting them do this to us means we are indirectly supporting the actions of Garda hiding behind bushes at speed limit changes on motorways.

Gurgle

edmund_f wrote:

To come back to the point, what are the loopholes, there is a system of presidence in Ireland, how does that work, can it be used against the speed cameras?. Are there any alternatives?. If the Garda are using an unfair system against the general public, letting them do this to us means we are indirectly supporting the actions of Garda hiding behind bushes at speed limit changes on motorways.

The problem is that stupidity and incompetence don't get in the way of getting a driving license.

Drunk driving is only a crime if you don't have the right connections.

Speeding is the easy one, the limits are precisely defined, if your driving faster then you are unargueably breaking the law, regardless if you're posing any danger to yourself or anyone else.

Maybe we should have a tiered licence system - Provisional drivers only allowed to drive at 40, same applies to anyone who has been responsible for an accident in the last 3 years.
People with 10 years driving without ever having any kind of an accident could be excluded from speed limits.
(You would need long range RFID tags embedded in your license so the gardai could tell if your were over your speed limit)

Of course we'll all have autopilots sooner than a scheme like that being brought in.

daymobrew

Andy Mc wrote:

the speed guns dont at the moment provide a print out of the speeding offence. A number of cases have already being thrown out on the basis of this.
Should I take my chances and challenge or bite the bullet and take the two points. Any views?

You can request a printout of the photo taken at the time. I rang the Penalty Office, gave the ticket number and it was posted out. Took 3 weeks. I was able to determine the sneaky location of the camera, for future reference.
The photo showed the speed I was travelling at. I can't remember if it showed the speed limit.


Bite the bullet? You mean "admit responsibility"? Admit you were wrong and learn. As I now drive the speed limit it obviously annoys those behind me but I am not willing to get more points; 2 is enough for me.

Gurgle

daymobrew wrote:

As I now drive the speed limit it obviously annoys those behind me but I am not willing to get more points.

I'm the same, I used to drive as fast as I considered safe, which was often considerably above the speed limit. Now I generally drive just at the speed limit. I was willing to take a chance on the occasional fine but not on points..

magpie

Anyone know of any loopholes for GATSO? I received a notice in the post alleging I was travelling at 43 mph on the N7 Naas Road which has a speed limit of 30mph.

I was reading something about a loophole in the UK whereby if you fill in the form but don't sign it it doesn't constitute a record. Any ideas?

Nuttzz

Get someone based overseas to agree to take the "fall" for you. You pay the fine on their behalf and they cant get the points

magpie

If you request the photograph do they give you an enlargement to show where exactly you were at the time of the alleged offence? All I have so far is a grainy shot of my reg.

Also, does anyone know, is the whole of the N7 a 30mph zone? I was labouring under the obviously false illusion that it was a 40mph zone leading up to the roundabout.

kdouglas

Gurgle wrote:

The problem is that stupidity and incompetence don't get in the way of getting a driving license.

Drunk driving is only a crime if you don't have the right connections.

Speeding is the easy one, the limits are precisely defined, if your driving faster then you are unargueably breaking the law, regardless if you're posing any danger to yourself or anyone else.

Maybe we should have a tiered licence system - Provisional drivers only allowed to drive at 40, same applies to anyone who has been responsible for an accident in the last 3 years.
People with 10 years driving without ever having any kind of an accident could be excluded from speed limits.
(You would need long range RFID tags embedded in your license so the gardai could tell if your were over your speed limit)

Of course we'll all have autopilots sooner than a scheme like that being brought in.

Provisional drivers only allowed to drive at 40 - yes and then provisional drivers will be despised more by the general driving public, i have a provisional licence myself and the way some drivers treat you because of this is ridiculous, and, not being one to blow my own trumpet but i know how to drive, im not the kind of learner who crawls along at 10mph all day and doesnt know where they're going.

carerra

Well my boyfriend got done for speeding a couple of months back on the belgard rd 55 in the 40 zone and explained that he was rushing to get his friend to the hospital as his grand father was about to die . this is actually true but as you can imagine the guard treated it like that was bul**** . so he issued the fine and points . his father knew a commissioner that owed his dad some money for work he did and asked for his help in making the problem disappear silly i know. stupid guard didn't bother doing anything and didn't bother letting them know he had not sorted it out . so local guard comes with summons yesterday and now my boyfriends a court date. now he can show a death cert for his friends grandfather or ask for proof that it was actually him speeding . but i know of a simlar case and the fella got 4 points 1000 euro fine and an endorsement on his licence basically they screwed him. :eek:

markpb

carerra wrote:

his father knew a commissioner that owed his dad some money for work he did and asked for his help in making the problem disappear silly i know. stupid guard didn't bother doing anything and didn't bother letting them know he had not sorted it out

Out of curiousity, why was the Garda stupid for not "making the problem disappear"? Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it, approaching an official for a favour when they owe you money is downright dodgy.

BrianD

Magpie - If you don't sign it they will return it to along with the payment highlighting what has not been completed. Obviously the clock to prosecution continues to tick.

Naas Road - Badly signed for speed limit from the Long Mile Junction to the Red Cow. You could take issue with them on this. The zone is 50KMH. There is no signage for traffic entering from the Long Mile Rd. The only sign is "double hung" on a LED sign after McDonalds (may be a corresponding one on the right). GATSO normally hangs out around the Sam Hire office close to the Red Cow Inn. They don't usually do the inbound side any more as they were apparently told to stop blocking a gateway they used to park in.

Red Cow - Newlands X - this is a 60KMH zone outbound. I think it is lower on the inbound section. GATSO likes both sides of the road on a Sunday for some reason.

You can request the full photo

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD wrote:

Naas Road - Badly signed for speed limit from the Long Mile Junction to the Red Cow. You could take issue with them on this. The zone is 50KMH. There is no signage for traffic entering from the Long Mile Rd.

There is a 50km/h sign, just before Bikeworld.
The limit on this section of the Naas Rd is utterly stupid and impossible to observe without putting yourself at risk of getting hit from behind.

is_that_so

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/index2.php?fn=points_issued.html

As the numbers of deaths and the number of points issued rise , the system becomes laughable. As regards the OP, you take your chances going to court although as I posted elsewhere there is something seriously questionable about automatic guilt. Maybe you can try making new law.

BrianD

ninja900 wrote:

There is a 50km/h sign, just before Bikeworld.
The limit on this section of the Naas Rd is utterly stupid and impossible to observe without putting yourself at risk of getting hit from behind.

There may well be but when you turn onto the Naas road from the Long Mile Road in the direction of the red cow, there are no speed limit signs until after McDonalds.. There is no reason to assume that the speed limit would be 50KMH the same as the Long Mile Rd.. Every stretch of road should have the speed limit posted within 20m of an entry point i.e junction, roundabout but excluding private entrances. This something that both south Dublin local authorities are particularly poor at - positioning and quantity of speed limit signs on roads in their areas.

It's not impossible to keep to the 50 limit and there is no risk of being hit from behind. It is difficult to observe if there are no speed limits clearly posted.

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD wrote:

There is no reason to assume that the speed limit would be 50KMH the same as the Long Mile Rd.

Why not? There's no reason to assume the speed limit changes as there's no sign telling you of an increase.

Every stretch of road should have the speed limit posted within 20m of an entry point i.e junction, roundabout but excluding private entrances.

Why bother when the speed limit doesn't change? The limit applying is the last sign you passed.
It's changes in the limit that need to be signposted.

This something that both south Dublin local authorities are particularly poor at - positioning and quantity of speed limit signs on roads in their areas.

As a built-up area, all of Dublin is assumed to be 50km/h unless signed otherwise.

It's not impossible to keep to the 50 limit and there is no risk of being hit from behind.

Try it on a motorcycle - you will be tailgated to within an inch of your life (literally) even at 35-40mph. A lot of the traffic on that road does 60mph when there are no tailbacks. You have 3 choices:
- keep up with the traffic i.e. way over the limit
- stay in middle lane, do 35-40 and hope the driver behind isn't going to get too annoyed at having to move over one lane (poor diddums)
- do the legal limit in left lane, which means everything will be overtaking you (usually leaving it to the last millisecond to change lane, and encroaching on your lane as they pass), and leaving you at the mercy of drivers pulling out of the petrol station without looking properly - its signs obscure the view badly.

BrianD

Sorry, Nija I don't agree at all. The international norm is to have every section of a road signed. Remember, this is not a city street it is an R road up to the Red Cow and a N road after that. It MUST be signed correctly and the driver should assume nothing. Also the Long Mile road is 60K up to the Naas Rr reducing to 50K for the junction. It would not be unreasonable for a driver to assume that now he/she is on a 3 lane dual carriageway that it would revert to a higher limit unless otherwise indicated.

The speed limit NEEDs and MUST be displayed after any point that traffic can enter a road irrespective of whether there is a change in limit. This should apply to any road that is a R, N or M route. It obviously it must be posted at regular intervals as a reminder.

As regards your statement in keeping to the posted limit - utter exageration and typical Irish driving nonsense (we can't obey the law because ...). I do 50 in the centre lane all the time. Why would I care what the other driver thinks when I am driving legally and correctly?

Saruman

Gurgle wrote:

Maybe we should have a tiered licence system - Provisional drivers only allowed to drive at 40, same applies to anyone who has been responsible for an accident in the last 3 years.
People with 10 years driving without ever having any kind of an accident could be excluded from speed limits.
(You would need long range RFID tags embedded in your license so the gardai could tell if your were over your speed limit)

I assume you are not being serious here... that is so stupid and not only that but lethal.. If provisional drivers (probably the majority) are only able to drive at 40 then by your reckoning more experienced drivers will be stuck behind them and be forced to overtake them. Unless you think only people with a clear 40 years driiving should be able to overtake a slower diver??

If you were serious then you are a muppet.. if it was sarcasm or whatever then you are excused.

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD wrote:

As regards your statement in keeping to the posted limit - utter exageration and typical Irish driving nonsense (we can't obey the law because ...). I do 50 in the centre lane all the time.

Is the left lane going even slower?

Why would I care what the other driver thinks when I am driving legally and correctly?

Exactly, why would you - when you occupy the full width of a lane, are surrounded by a steel cage and have a rear crumple zone? The point is that very few drivers will allow enough room to overtake a motorcycle safely. It's simply safer for me to not make myself a target, even if that means breaking the (ridiculously low, on this stretch) speed limit.
A couple more signs on this stretch wouldn't go amiss, but the limit should be raised to 60km/h (or greater if the petrol station exit is made safer.)

Gurgle

Saruman wrote:

I assume you are not being serious here... that is so stupid and not only that but lethal

Sarcasm.
I agree, it would be stupid and lethal, but not for the reasons you suggest.

The absolute worst drivers in the country are between 40 and 70 with full licences and "decades of experience".

1. Half of them bought a driving licence in the post office at a time when there was no such thing as a provisional.
2. They learned to drive on empty roads and many refuse to change their habits just because theres 100 times the traffic the same road network.

(No, I'm not saying all, or even most, 40-70 yos are crap drivers)

In_the_sea

I would advise not to challenge the penalty points system.
If you are unfortunate enough to get them you should pay. I thinks its fair to just pay it and get the points, it will deter you from doing it again and could save you or some elses life someday. just think about it, you are not in full control of a very fast car. There are a lot of idiots on the road, slow drivers, fast drivers, dangerous stunt drivers, and of course the jolly old clowns you come across everyday.
I have received 2 penalty points on my licence and I paid €80 to the station. I have a full licence, and I feel as though its my stupid fault for getting my licence dirty I dont know if it will affect my insurance. I normally break the speed limit when im on a good road with good visibilty and VERY late for work. To be quiet honest its really making my life miserable stressing myself out! I dont justify speeding. it makes me cringe to see a family out for the day and being wiped out by some d**ckhead who doesnt want to slow down! Where are a lot of them going? its not just young drivers, its also older ones in big mercedes who bamp the horn if ur going 60mph on a main road!!
I think opposing penalty points is like assaulting someone and thinking you are right and try to get away with it. True I speed sometimes but I dont go over 70mph on a national road. True I may come across as a racer, but still I agree with penalty points but I think you should be notified immediately when u get them! If you got 4 camera shots in the same day and in general you dont speed, its unfair. The whole system for penalty points is too black and white!! I think it should be reviewed and made fairer than what it is at the moment.
just my view ladz, nothing personal. I just think it should be made fairer. So we can all be safe and happy with the governments way of handling it. If they give the points out and we take the negative attitude we will feel like the gardai are against us and we will feel as though we want to rebel. The gardai have a big part to play in how we perceive them. I dont like working with people who dont like me, so i dont like gards using the power trip and talking to u like u are a criminal because you committed a speeding offence. Its just wrong! they are on our side, but we all have roles to play:
obey the law, and gards to treat citizens with respect. We are not numbers, we're people!

Calina

Point in passing: south of France, the cameras are not hidden. They are full view so you can't miss them. Main autoroute to Nice: there's a 110km zone which has several sets of cameras in it. You can't miss them.

I could sort of see (albeit not justify) the idea of hiding them when it was a revenue farming exercise. But if safety is the issue, then cameras, lots of them and highly visible is the way to go.

At least that way, people will know they will be caught if they speed. It's not such a gamble.

fiachs

I thought that the point would be more that if you don't know where the cameras are they could be "anywhere" so you don't speed even when you can't see an obvious camera. If you know where all the camera's are then you're just going to encourage speeding where there aren't any cameras.

Calina

fiachs wrote:

I thought that the point would be more that if you don't know where the cameras are they could be "anywhere" so you don't speed even when you can't see an obvious camera.

doesn't seem to be working as an idea though.

is_that_so

fiachs wrote:

I thought that the point would be more that if you don't know where the cameras are they could be "anywhere" so you don't speed even when you can't see an obvious camera. If you know where all the camera's are then you're just going to encourage speeding where there aren't any cameras.

Would you slow down if you saw a flashing blue light? It works for me. The approach to the whole idea of road safety in this country is both lazy and over simplistic. Lots of points does not equal safer roads or better driver behaviour but makes great headlines.
It reminds me of hide and seek - looking for the place no-one would ever find you. :rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

In_The_Sea wrote:

but still I agree with penalty points but I think you should be notified immediately when u get them!

Within 14days is not unreasonable like in the UK. In the UK if they fail to nofify the reg keeper within 14 days the offence is dead. Why can't the cops here get their act together?

BrianD

Covert speed cameras are not entirely successful. There needs to be a mixture of both. Covert cameras will catch people but will not impress on people that there is wide enforcement out there. This is probably why speed cams in the UK are now painted day-glo yellow. People see them and think "jeez, these things are everywhere, I will get caught if I don't heed the speed limits".