Who's in the house?

Blitzkrieger

Jesus in the house!

I heard this for the first time about a fornight ago and as usual decided to wait a very long time before having a rant on the boards

Some young fella came on the request show, must have been about 11 or 12 and asked the DJ to play Fr. O' Brein. The DJ said "Ohh no, are you serious? You're not going to make me play it are you?" The young fella said yeah, sounding confused and dissapointed so of course the DJ had to play it.

At first I laughed my ass off but it's actually quite disturbing. Not only because that priest probably believed with all his heart that young people would think the song was cool, but because some people did.

To be honest the whole catholic church sickens me. They have the gall to complain about cults influencing peoples minds and they try to do exactly the same thing.

I was playing GTA once and was racking up repeated stunning **** (or was that cunning stunt?) bonuses when the nephew (3 at the time) turned up the volume on the TV loud enough that I couldn't just drown it out. There was some religious cartoon on and some really badly drawn lion was singing "God loves us and hears everything we say, especially when we pray" over and over again.

I accepted the mission where you have to kill 8 police and was involved with that for a while so for at least five minutes that really badly drawn lion was singing that same line over and over again.

You can imagine that it's not the catchest tune in the world. It was on TV so there was no tape stuck and the animation seemed to be going fine so there was no technical glitch in the studio - just this really badly drawn lion singing "God loves us and hears everything we say, especially when we pray" over and over again.

It might sound ridiculos but this had to have been a crude attempt at brain-washing and from the time of the day it was on, aimed at pre-school kids.

And to me that's all the catholic church is about. Parents take their kids to church and they feed them bull**** every week. They're taught that it's a sin not to. They'll burn in hell if they don't. Anybody who says different is an agent of the devil trying to lead them astray.

I saw a piece of american TV from the bible belt. It was about this "hip" (yes, they used the word hip) preacher who was bringing the message of god to young people. There must have been 100,000 jesus freaks packed into a hugh stadium to hear this Vegas reject sing bad pop tunes while trying to dance with four black men. They were screaming and lapping it up!

The climax of his show/sermon seemed to be when he pretended to be a demon reporting in to the devil about the increase in evil. God knows what the numbers were but the number of kids watching violent cartoons, listening to rock music and single mothers were all up.

Well shock, horror. Not drugs, gangs, or elemantary school kids with assault weapons but single mothers are the biggest evil in america. I wonder what the gate receipts were.

Because that's what it's all about - money. "It's nothing but a pack of chants and weird rituals designed to take away the money of fools." Can anybody tell me who's the wealthiest land owner in the world? You've guessed it - the catholic church. Yet whenever there's a famine or a drought who're the first people to ask us to put our hands in our pockets?

There was controversy in Cork recently over a preist giving out to his congregation for not donating enough. Every church I see is palatial but the ****ing church needs more money? Why didn't the ***** - oops, I mean priest get a real job instead of trying to guilt trip his boobs - oops I mean congregation into giving him more of their hard earned money.

They work hard all week for that money. Most people don't like their jobs. Don't feel they spend enough time with their family or friends trying to earn enough to get by, and maybe give their family a bit of happiness while that parasite sits on his ass all day and trys to think up new ways of conning them out of their money.

Getting back to that kid on the radio.....I pity the guy. He really didn't seem to have a clue why the DJ didn't want to play that song. He must have been like a zombie, brainlessly following the church.

The thing that clinches it for me is confirmation. This is supposed to be a re-affirmation of their faith. When they're old enough to chose for themselves if they want to be a part of the catholic church. Why do they have it when the kids are only 11?

Who's mature enough when they're 11 to make an objective decision about whether or not they believe in god? I know when I had my confirmation nobody asked me if I wanted to be part of the catholic church. Even then I knew it was bull**** but if they had asked me, I would have said yes anyway. Apart from the fact I probably would have got a beating and been dragged to the chuch if neccessary, it would have been a scandal to say no. It was done through school so everybody had to do it. All my freinds were getting confirmed and in a jesus freak village like this it would have been a stigma not to. Even the protestant boy had to do it!

It's no accident they call them their flock.

Paladin

Aaah, ummm, I uuh THINK, that that song ure talking about, is, umm, well a pi$stake :-/
Not actually seen as religious as such.
Fr.Brian and the Fun Lovin Cardinals?
Pi$stake of Fun Lovin Criminals.
"Fr.Brian" is that guy who was on Good Grief Moncrief, ya know the squinty eyed plumpish smartass blackhaired guy?

And yes the song does suck.

And as for the other stuff, which I only half read, well I just ignore most of it
You seem a bit "ranty" I might add - kinda went off topic - GTA missions?
Fun game wasnt it

Hobbes

REPENT SINNER!!

Mills

It was indeed a pi$$take started on the last series of Dont feed the Gondolas. If I remember right he'd been taking the **** out of several religions in the weeks before "Who's in da house"

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I am inflatible !

Paladin

Sry. Me mixed up good grief moncrief with dont feed the gondolas.

Shinji

Blitz - I think what you're trying to say here is, "Religion sucks ass". You won't find any disagreement from this camp!

Excelsior

you're allowed to believe that.
you don't know much about it though.
"jesus freaks" certainly don't equate to catholics.
it seems very odd to me that you can describe christians as the ones who follow the flock.

what will people think when they find out i'm a jesus freak?

Canaboid

We already know but we haven't given our Lord Satan your home address just yet

Hobbes

Manach

In defence of the faith, in 3 or so paragraphs.

Can you say overreaction, to 'Who's in the house'. Rather bemused when I first heard the song, especially as it came on just after Enimen's latest. I think is just a mild-parody with a good chuckle factor. Then came the ads, saying that if I purchased their product my life would be perfect from then on.
(/sigh the only voices I hear aren't Catherine of the Wheel but the latest Telebingo jingo /sigh)

When the collection plate is passed around I voluntary give a couple of coppers, try this with the revenue-men. As you say that the Church has a alot of land, but does this not equate to wealth (= selling bloated overpriced S/W from Seattle) or to power (a certain Superpower that intervenes militarily when and where ever it feels it's threaten ie all the time). A sole reason for it's existence, to a non-believer at least, would be a bulwark to the State. My view a State exists for its own benefit, regardless of it's professed political system. The Church is an independent entity which makes it so very popular to the present mainland Chinese government.

BTW you seem to taking examples from Protestantism and Catholicism to support your argument, both Excelsior & myself would agree they are wee a bit different.

As a member of the church, I am because of belief in God and I reckon that the Church is the best of the bunch as a meme-carrier for this value system. I won't pretend that they aren't issues that I have no solution for, the problem of Evil or that people use Religion as a weapon of terror, such as Torquemada or Moses, and a lot more besides. But on balance I deem the Catholic Church (and other Religious systems) a force for good. So I try to make that ongoing leap of faith every day.

Finally, regarding the DJ, I suppose he was just too busy trying to plug the latest Westlife track next.

fair is the prize and the hope is great

Hecate

Why do some people bother?:

Hobbes

Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean you have to believe in the church.

When we moved into our new home the local priest came around to say hi and give us the collection envelopes (nothing else really). The mother is not overly religious, I mean she doesn't go to mass but she does believe in God and despite finding the prist somewhat rude in how he give us the envelopes she still filled them.

My Grandmother on the other hand was extremly religious.

We had been living there for 2 maybe 3 years when my Grandmother was real sick and possibly dying. She moved back from England because she wanted to die in Ireland, but she stuck around for almost another year (lot more healthy living in Ireland).

In the last weeks that my Grandmother was around, my mother went to the priest and mentioned that she wanted to hold the funeral mass in the church and was told "I'm busy, anyway she isn't part of my parish and she has never come to this church so why should I?". You can imagine how my mother was after that, we actually had the funeral in our old Parish (as the priest knew everyone)

A little while later the local priest knocked on the door wondering here his church collection envelope was as he didn't receive it in the last three weeks (I mean the whole ****ing street knew about the funeral). Well lets just say my mother was anything but nice to the priest and he doesn't call around anymore.

So in my opinion the church is ****ed up.

Excelsior

christians are just normal people who live differently. we aren't all mentalists who go around hating women who have abortions or who use their organisation's power for political ends. myself and a huge amount of christians are not part of a religion. we don't take part in anything that could exert corrupt power in the way catholicism does.
we also aren't idiots.
some of us are, but all groups have 'em. that guy in the photo is one. i have about 5 arguments with him a year.
but we have a right to believe and what's more we can argue that (on a personal scale) we are right to believe. that doesn't infringe on you blitz. but you should try and think about it.

props to manach. as usual.

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http://www.challenge-ie.com/columns/excelsior

Blitzkrieger

I've said this before - I'm not trying to infringe on anyone's right to worship whatever they want - I'm just laughing at them. In short I'm saying :

Originally posted by Hobbes:
in my opinion the church is ****ed up.

Are you saying that you agree with the jesus freak who thought that single mothers were a big "evil". If not, how can you be a member of the same church?

Excelsior

blitz,
what church do you presume i am part of?
i would be happy to be described as a "jesus freak," but anyone who uses that phrase without it being laden with humour is a little odd.
catholic priests as a group however couldn't by any means be described as "jesus freaks."

what church is it blitz?
what is a christian?
or are you so poorly informed that yoy cant tell the difference?
manach, would you like to tell him about martin luther?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:
Are you saying that you agree with the jesus freak who thought that single mothers were a big "evil". If not, how can you be a member of the same church?

What is evil?

Is evil what the church defines? Bear in mind your talking about a church that a while back was letting people buy themselves into heaven and killing in the name of God.

Manach

Being a self-professed member of a corrupt, powerful & omnipotent organisation (sounds a great chat up line) in quick response!
If I were being catty I'd describe Luther as someone who publicly burned the Summa Theologica and the Works of Aquinas. Meow. I'll just say that he was a former Augustine Monk who should have tried to reform from within the Church instead of causing fragmentation which continues to this day. Asserted that the Bible is the final authority on relgious matters.

Thks Hobbes for the lack of any timeframe so from memory,
Indulgences, major scandal in the 16th, Trent re-iterated that only effective if genuinlly sorry and part of good works.
Wars, Last Pope in the field was I think Julius II from about the same period, Rex Harrison played him in the film about Michaelangeleo . Please don't mention the Borgia-Popes.
Seems a funny old mix, how Religion can inspired the worst(War etc) and best (Pieta, Gregorian Chants, Book of Kells) in people. Very human.
In a counterattacking mood, might I suggest reading Solzhenitsyn (converted to Orthodoxy in the camps) about the power of a modern state which wishes to achieve heaven on Earth.

(PS Excelsior am I good or bad cop?)

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fair is the prize and the hope is great

Shiminay

Interesting the way this thread's gone...
Anyway, here's my 2 pence...

I'm not a believer in God, but I totally respect anyone's wishes if they want to believe. It's their choice (as it's my choice not to believe).

What I can't abide is people who "believe" in God - the kind of people who go to mass/church out of obligation and not out of desire. This is more a fault of the church (as an institution) than the individual.
I can't speak for other religions, but I was raised as a Roman Catholic and when I was younger, I used to like going to mass and was an alter boy for over 2 years (no jokes please!). So what changed my mind? Well, all the scandals and stuff that hit the Catholic church forced me into thinking about religion. I suddenly realised that I didn't actually believe in God! Why was I going to mass and stuff? Because, if I didn't, my mother'd have kicked the be-jaysus outta me
One day, I said I'd had enough and told my mother I wasn't going to mass anymore. Let's just say, the resulting arguement wasn't pretty. At this stage, I should point out that my mother is a church musician - it's her career and she's damn good at it (30 years at it this year). The church has always featured heavily in her life (she works in Knock Shrine as assistant organist!), but to this day, she still won't answer me when I ask her whether or not she believes in God. She keeps saying that I'm "putting on this big show" by not going to mass and so on. I do find this hurtful that my own mother can't respect my religious beliefs (or lack of), but I respect her's. (there is a point - bare with me!)
One day I completely lost the plot with her and spent 10 minutes screaming at the top of my voice at her and her sister (who was visiting) about they're stupidity about not thinking for themselves and going to mass and stuff out of obligation and habit rather than belief.
When I calmed down, I appologised as I was well out of order (my aunt has a very strong belief and that's good), but I calmly explained why I was mad because she has absolutely no respect for my belief and that makes her a hypocrite.

Anyway, after all that. Here's my point.
Religion isn't bad. Churches can be. The 2 are very, VERY different things.

btw, to clarify, when I say Religion, I mean having a belief in God (or whoever). When I say Churches, I mean things like the Roman Catholic Church and it's representatives etc.

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)
My page of stuff

Excelsior

sorry i left that reply but i had to go.

kharn, mate, your opinions are spot on. where you finish with the word religion i would say faith. and where you finish with the word church i would say religion.

we mean the exact same thing though.

as for you manach, you are a pretty good spokesperson for that church we are all familiar with. i am certain you would agree with me when i say that the catholic church in my opinion does more social good in this country (with regards to charity, guidance and shelter) than any other organisation. they also have 100,000s of faithful follwers.
that means you shouldnt laugh at them blitz.
they are a human organisation and therefore make mistakes (contraception anyone?) but i have never met a crazy priest- they are a (diminishing) minority.
my parents and sisters are catholics. they dont like my choice alot either. i have a similar response as kharn gets, but they do believe in catholicism. their unconnected human fear of the unknown or perceived rebellion leads to that response. you can't label them sheep to the church.
jesus freak is a term used by christians blitz. it isn't an insult, its a joke. it describes behaviour you will never see in the catholic church. so stop mixing christians and catholics up.

it is extraordainarily popular to bash the church, go right ahead. i disagree. but you have a right too. but you can't laugh at the people, many people, who go to mass (or church, or whatever faith based servive) on a sunday with every intent to get closer to their Maker. that is ignorant, insulting and pathetic.

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http://www.challenge-ie.com/columns/excelsior

Hobbes

Well... isn't that SPECIAL!




[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 11-10-2000).]

Bard

On the contentious topic of religion, there is much debating to be had and many conflicting opinions to be expressed. What does it all boil down to?

Catholicism: If sh!t happens, I deserve it.
Protestantism: sh!t won't happen if I work harder.
Judaism: Why does this sh!t always happen to me?
Buddhism: When sh!t happens, is it really sh!t?
Islam: If sh!t happens, take a hostage.
Hinduism: This sh!t happened before.
Hare Krishna: sh!t happens Rama Lama Ding Dong.
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this sh!t.

Okay, maybe not... but it made me laugh...

Chill, dudes... chill

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Bard
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-me-

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 11-10-2000).]

Canaboid

God is an alien.

Excelsior

a man with faith is a brother manach.
we both have the same God. its just you have a church and i don't.

but blitz mixes up the extremly rare parts of your church with my belief.
the catholic church is a huge force for good blitz. it has its....
must respond in an hour.
programming lecture. dagnamit!

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by Excelsior:
you have a church and i don't.

I was assuming that the majority of people here were christian and catholic. The guy I was referring to was catholic and you say you were raised as a catholic so I wasn't far wrong

The church might do some good but how many times have you seen the organiser of a church bake sale spend the entire day drinking tea and gossiping about anybody who comes in, rather than trying to help and actually donating themselves. By organiser I mean they give everyone else tasks, stay long enough to guilt them into doing it then sit back and moan when the sale isn't very successful. Then at the end of the day gets into her Rolls and curses the knackers parked within -oh my god! - two miles of her house!

This isn't a joke. This is a woman I know. She's the cheapest ***** anyone could know and spends all her time moaning about how young people (i.e. me) never give any time to good causes.

Of the people who go to mass - how many to you think actually beleive? How many go so they won't get the eqivalent of the bayjaysus beating out of them by their mother.

'damnit - time for Software Engineering
how are we supposed to have a discussion with all these classes going on

Bard

Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:
I was assuming that the majority of people here were christian and catholic. The guy I was referring to was catholic and you say you were raised as a catholic so I wasn't far wrong

And what do they say about assumption being the brother of all fu<kups? Brother, mother, any other sibling...

Being raised as a catholic doesn't equate actually being Christian/Catholic as I myself, and many of my own friends, and acquaintances through the years, would be testament to.

I don't believe in God and I don't trust the church, but I don't make an issue out of it and I don't generally get into a debate about it - my beliefs are my own and I don't impose them on anyone or argue with anyone that their beliefs are wrong. I do think though that there's far more disillusionment with and far less interest in the catholic church these days, particularly among young people - and that it's not always a safe assumption in this diverse and fu<ked up world to expect that most of the people you are talking to are Christian/Catholic.

My (perhaps slightly off topic?) 2 cents

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Bard
_____
-me-

Baz_

Well the thing I can't believe is that quite a sane discussion descended from blitzy's stupidity in believing that Brendan O'Connor's song "who's in the house" was a real song of worship. (Good Lord).

About religion though, I also think it's stupid that children (11 and 12 year olds) are asked at such an early age to make a commitment to one church/religion/faith (or at least pretend, so they can get lots of money hehe), even though they are not legally allowed to make a decision about any other part of their life, i.e. home, school, sex anything. A load of pants.

C B

The vast majority of people posting here were raised as Catholics yet we have all managed to make rational decisions in our adulthood regarding our spiritual beliefs. Yes confirmation is a silly ritual but its hardly detrimental to a childs upbringing.

Kali

cant believe no-one posted any plif stuff:

C B

it's a little bit ironic to use somebody elses thoughts to prove that the church steals people of independent thought.

Hobbes

Originally posted by C B:
The vast majority of people posting here were raised as Catholics yet we have all managed to make rational decisions in our adulthood regarding our spiritual beliefs. Yes confirmation is a silly ritual but its hardly detrimental to a childs upbringing.

Confirmation is nothing but "How much money can I make" day for kids. You ask any child how was thier confirmation day and I'll bet most will say "Great! I made over 80 quid!"

Baz_

And I didn't even imply that confirmation is detrimental to a child's upbringing, but only that it is a ritual performed too early in a childs life, not damaging to the mind but none the less when most kids confirm their faith in God most of them hear cash registers ringing when they say whatever words it is they say. Therefore the whole exercise is a waste of time because there are very few kids who have properly or logically (or spirirually) ever examined anything never mind their faith.

C B

but you did imply that it was a bad thing where as in truth it is neither a negative or positive experience for most people.

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I think Kharn has really hit the nail on the head in relation to most peoples attitude to the church. It is not about a realationship with the church but with parents who can't accept their childs lack of faith. In my experience most ex-Catholics who hold hostile views regarding the church are in actual fact hostile towards their parents.

Bard

Originally posted by C B:
but you did imply that it was a bad thing where as in truth it is neither a negative or positive experience for most people.

That really is getting into semantics now... something can be a bad thing but not be a negative experience.

Baz_ was saying that the whole exercise of confirmation is a waste of time. I would say that having your time wasted is a bad thing - that doesnt necessarily make the experience itself that wasted the time particularly negative, but further into word play on the subject, you should not really go

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Hobbes

Blessed is the holy spirit for he will get you a bicycle if you can hit as many relations as possible in one day.

I don't believe in Dogmatic law. Does this mean I will go to hell?

Dogbert law on the other hand.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Bard:
That really is getting into semantics now... something can be a bad thing but not be a negative experience.

I think CB wants to know if he can flame me or not.

Hobbes

I am hostile to the church because I am hostile to my parents? Where did you's dig that little gem up.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by C B:
In my experience most ex-Catholics who hold hostile views regarding the church are in actual fact hostile towards their parents.

And what experience is that? That is a quite ridiculous statement to make.

C B

I did not say you in particular but people in general.

Almost all children get their introduction to religion from their parents.

In Ireland most Catholic parents (as in the the case kharn described) are quite forceful in passing on their religous beliefs.

When I discuss with people their hostility towards the Church they invariably refer to be forced to go to Mass. this is generally done by parents not by priests. Therefore I believe that ex-catholics who maintain hostility towards the Church are generally more hostile at the way in which they were introduced to religion or in the way it was presented to them.

I believe that if at the age of 12, people left the church and nothing was said to them they would not bare the kind of hostility which is being expressed on this topic

Hobbes

You may not directed the comment at me but I'm hostile to the Church.

Or better put, I am hostile to what the church stands for, not the people in it nor the religion.

Being forced to go to church when I was a kid (which I was never) has nothing to do with it.

Excelsior

well i sure as heck amnt hostile to it. i just left it.
so i cant support you on this one cb.

Paladin

/Paladin lends his valued thoughts.....

Pagans believed in sun gods (among others). Romans, Norse, Egyptians, Greeks, etc. once believed there were many gods. Christians, Jews etc. believe in one god. Buddhism, Islam etc. have even more beliefs.

Why so many? Whats the connection?

Everywhere there is a belief in a higher being and an afterlife. Hundreds of these beliefs (some too small to mention). And all independant of each other.

Pro-religious use the numbers as an argument saying "How can so many be wrong?".

Here is my view:
All religions exist out of mans insecurity, fear, and lack of understanding.

We are afraid of death so we say there is an afterlife.
We dont understand something - God made it so we wouldnt understand (romans didnt understand the sun - modern day, ppl dont know how the universe was created, although they have theories).

Everyone feels these things, and thats why there was always "gods" in every culture.

Which one is right? Thats another interesting question. Ive asked Catholics how they know their god is the true one and not Allah? They have no answer. They still believe blindly in the catholic god.

Personal Opinions:

• There may, or may not be a God - I dont know for certain, nor will I ever claim that I know that my way is right.
• I see no reason why any particular religion is more believable than another.
• I dont believe you need religion to be a good person.
• People who blindly follow a religion out of fear and insecurity are pitiful wretches, for whom I cant say I have a great deal of respect.
• People who follow a religion because they have faith, believe in being a good person, and accept that they might not be right, but still believe they are, deserve respect.

I think there might be a god. I dont have complete faith. You can go to fúck if you think you can convince me he is definitely Catholic.
I accept there might not be anything after I die. I might cease to exist. I might find there is an afterlife and I cant get in because I didnt have faith in the right god.

The thing is, someone believes in whatever they believe in, and not in a voluntary way.
Im willing to wait till I die to find out.
Meanwhile Ill remain a pretty decent guy, and hope, whatever I find be it afterlife or no afterlife, that Ive led a good life, and enjoyed it.

(sorry this is so long )

GeneJoker

I havent finished reading all these, but I have to go now and i just wanted to say this.

Did you know that the pope(a previous one, i forget which)gave Ireland to England in an attempt to stamp out the pagan practices present at the time(This was before protestantism). The English occupation of Ireland came about due to Queen Elizabeth the whateverth's irritation about having the official title Queen of England and Ireland yet recieving no taxes from the latter.(This was much later.) apart from this, there was really nothing England wanted in Ireland at the time.
The Churches granting of Ireland to England was never repealed, and we are (officially) still a subsidiary of england in its eyes.

Canaboid

Pretty much spot on Paladin.

To revert to my earlier post of "God is an Alien" - I'm only half joking.
In so far as we would consider an Alien to be a) A different species
b) A higher inteligence
C) Not a resident of planet earth

Then yes he is. Make a leap of faith here (soz bad pun) and you have an alternative God. A superior being/beings.
We have advanced in the field of chemistry, physics and biology at an astounding pace in the last 50 years and our rate of learning seems to be accelerating. It is indicitve of our intelligence that we constantly need to learn from and experiment with our surroundings. This has led to for example the decoding of the human genome and cloning has also taken it's first few faltering steps (be afraid). Speculate that in X hundred years time we have colonised nearby planets and can write our own genetic code (quite similar to computer code in a basic way). A logical next step would be to start up a "petri dish" planet and toss in a few "GM Cultures" and then see what grows. Will we develop the expertise to acomplish this in the future ? I don't know. Has another sentient race already done this ? I personally wouldn't be suprised.
My beliefs on our creation have changed many times over the years but this explanation believe it or not holds the most sensible answers to the questions I have always had.

God is an alien. Earth is his petri dish. I hope I'm not insane

C B

and your point is

Bard

I think his point is that kids today don't appreciate fully the intended meaning behind confirmation. That's a fact - one that we all know to be true for 90% of kids (at least) and one that's been true for the past 30 years at least.

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Bard
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-me-

C B

yes but what exactly has that to do with my post

Excelsior

i just feel a need to clear up the idea that i am a catholic because i believe in jesus.
that all catholics are pretending
that the catholic church is inherently evil and deliberately so
that anyone with faith must be guilty of a logical fallacy or just plain stupid
and that you can laugh at people for belief in something diffeent to you.

Bard

You said that confirmation is "hardly detrimental to a childs upbringing" - I'd say Hobbes was agreeing with you (as I was) by saying that confirmation is meaningless to children as the whole religious meaning behind it is lost on them, and as it is meaningless to them in that way, it doesnt get a chance to be detrimental to their upbringing in any way.

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Bard
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-me-

C B

Originally posted by Excelsior:
well i sure as heck amnt hostile to it. i just left it.
so i cant support you on this one cb.

I did not say that you were hostile to it. At the risk of being repetative, people who express a great deal of hostility to the church are generally upset at the way they were forced to be a part of it.

P.S. How is it that I continually seem to end up defending the ****ing Church here? I feel like Grandpa Simpson when he goes to work in the fast food place and all the other old fogies are complaining. "hey, i should be out there with you guys"

Excelsior

this must be one of the most mature and viable discussions i've seen here on the boards. (who-hooo!) and it all started from blitzie's ridiculous mis-interpretation of comedy.

there are lots of reasons paladin why i am a christian and believe in it. there are no reasons to believe jesus didn't exist. there are examples of work he did which can be described as other-worldly and that is where faith comes in.

Paladin

Originally posted by Excelsior:
there are no reasons to believe jesus didn't exist.

No reasons to believe either.

Take my friend Gamoul.
He doesnt exist. I just made him up. He was a guy who was sacraficed to a Goddess and thrown into a bog in Tollund.
There is evidence he exists. "The Tollund Man" (a 2000 year old body that was recovered in near pristine condition in Tollund, Denmark).
This evidence isnt right of course, because I just made him up. But if I was to contimue my claim he existed, then I would have evidence (dont confuse evidence with proof ppl).

Anyway, I can use different analagys to show my reasons for doubting almost all religious stuff.
I wont bother coming up with anymore for a while

Im not saying that I know Jesus didnt exist btw.
Im just saying that I personally doubt that an actual son of god called Jesus existed.

Im not quite so arrogent about things I cant possibly prove. Many others are not.