Who's in the house?

plastic membrane

Faith is a good thing. Faith keeps a person going.

Its when others start trying to control your faith, like what (i believe) the catholic church has been doing, that i get angry. Nobody should have to tell you what to believe and not believe.

Thats why i no longer go to church, or recognise the redundant, out of date, homophobic, patriarchal authority that it represents.

Is there a God ? I like to think so. I hope so. Wouldnt it be great if there was, and he was as kind, benevolent and wise as we would like him to be ?

---

Im going to the bear fights tomorrow, want to come with ??

plastic membrane

And in case you think im a devout, liberal, gibbering, jesus freak hippie, here's a very rude word:


BUM!!!!


<ahem>

Jelvon

Just My 2 cents :
you all are dicussing this topic from a catholic view, here is protestant angle on the whole religon thing and indeed where he fits into our lifes. We believe in faith that the bible is the foundation for our religon, but the religon isn't our life , religon ( protestant or Catholic) should serve to bring us closer to God and strenghen our relation with God but religon cannot start the relationship in the first place ( ie going to church will not get you into heaven neither will believing in God sure even the Devil believes in God). Only through asking Jesus into your life can you gain entry into heaven, is it as simply as that. Of course this can be view a free pass in life, "wahey I am a christian now ,I can do nething I want and everything will be forgiven and I will get to heaven" but if you are really a christian then you won't want to sin ( of course you will sin, since nobody is perfect ). It is hard to explain my love for God and his for me, all I can say is that is alway there , blind faith you could call it. There is a strong argument against this love I typed about , if God really loves us then why does he let bad things happen to us? I believe that this world has been givin over to the Devil , God cannot stand sin and therefore only through Christians can he help the world. There is only two camps in this world , with God or with the Devil ,there is no middle.


Rev.Jelvon


Soz if I sounded a bit preachy , but I feel strongly about posting that ,don't worry I try not to preach nemore *much* . Don't look like that at me , I am not a Jesus FREAK.....

Paladin

Originally posted by Jelvon:
There is only two camps in this world , with God or with the Devil ,there is no middle.

Why not?

---

Jelvon

if I was to believe in a middle then , it would contradict what I have read in the Bible , soz If this isn't the answer you were looking for .

Canaboid

Originally posted by Jelvon:
Only through asking Jesus into your life can you gain entry into heaven

Just wondering where you think that leaves the billions of non-christians when the final trump is sounded for judgement day. Do you not understand that there is a hindu jevlon somewhere typing the exact same "you must have faith" in defense of his own religous beliefs. Are you both right ? Or are you both wrong ?

Jelvon

double post

[This message has been edited by Jelvon (edited 14-10-2000).]

Jelvon

good point Canaboid, you right of course, there is billions of non christians and I can't pretend that hindu Jelvon doesn't exist , cause I just of easly could of been a hindu instead of a protestant. But what does it matter? , the christian msg is for everyone and God is not concerned with religon ,only whether you are a christian or not. I have heard of christian hindus but they dont stay as hindus for long , they in search of a place to worship God come to a religon which recognises him ( ie the catholic church ). I cannot prove to you that God exists or indeed that I am right in my faith argument, it is something you need to find out for youself, what the world wants is : "show me and I 'll believe" but what God offers is "believe and I'll show"

THE END
Jelvon

btw hobbes , IMHO this world is givin over to sin, therefore man and the pointy eared fellow with the spike are in it together runining the world whether we know it or not, I love blaming other ppl , damn human nature.

Hecate

Kind of crude, but a comedian called George Carlin had a few interesting thoughts on religion:

"Do you believe in God" "No" *BLAM*
"Do you believe in God" "Yes", "Do you believe in MY God" "No" *BLAM*

Unfortunatly this seems to sum up what religion has done to the world. I think you'll find that a lot of conflicts have their roots in different religious beliefs, these are always the ones that are bitter, deep seated and continue from generation to generation, rather than wars over land or power.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Jelvon:
if I was to believe in a middle then , it would contradict what I have read in the Bible , soz If this isn't the answer you were looking for .

There are only two camps in the world based on your religion you mean.

As for the world given over to the Devil? I don't agree, I think people just find a way to pass the blame onto something else.

Blaming the devil is just a way to make sense to the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no reason at all.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by Paladin:

Pro-religious use the numbers as an argument saying "How can so many be wrong?".

yeah - that has to be the dumbest argument ever

Whatever mistake I made about that comedy thing (I never watch RTE) I think you're missing the point :

Originally posted by Paladin:

Personal Opinions:

• People who blindly follow a religion out of fear and insecurity are pitiful wretches, for whom I cant say I have a great deal of respect.

Mention the word "cult" to someone and probably the first words to spring to mind would be brain washing and thought control. To my mind this is exactly what religion does.

[not trying to insult Jevlon] Look at what Jevlon says. He believes (correct me if I'm wrong) that "Hindu Jevlon" will not get into heavan. It doesn't matter if he's a good man - it doesn't matter if he's ****ing Mahatma Ghandi, because he's not christian, he won't get into heavan.[/not trying to insult Jevlon]

The idea that an omnipitent being would make distinctions like that is laughable. Why would an omnipitent being give a **** what religion people are?

Excelsior

i agree with jevlon.
that is my faith.
jevlon is very brave to share things with people he doesn't know, over the web, all the time knowing that there is no way he can explain these things to you.
blitz, we believe in the bible. read the bible and your question will be answered.

but i agree with one thing pretty universally. religion hasn't worked as an organisation. and i am not a member of one. i am a jesus freak, or at least, someday i would like to be called such, and personally, i am secure in the knowledge that my belief, and faith, is right. which doesn't infringe on your faith. or belief. or lack therof. i think the vast majority of true christians feel the same way.
so don't be prejudiced against us. i and my christian friends aren't to you.
we aren't that different at all.
so does that make sense?

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Excelsior:
there are no reasons to believe jesus didn't exist. there are examples of work he did which can be described as other-worldly and that is where faith comes in.

Debatable, to say the least. There are no reasons to beleive he did exsist, either. I think that an influential rabbi or holy man did exsist around that time, around whom the stories and myths in the Bible are based.

These 'examples' that you mention are stories recounted in a book, nothing more - the expolits of James Bond are told in books too, and no-one's doubting that they are made up.

Blitzkrieger

I'm not attacking your faith - I'm attacking religion - the catholic church specifically but all of them really.

It's almost impossible to argue over faith. Personally I don't have any but if you do that's your choice. It's religion and what's done in the name of religion (some would argue they're the same thing) that I have a problem with.

As far as Jesus existing goes - isn't there a theory gaining popularity with historians that "jesus", mary magdalin and a few others went around faking miracles and making the prophecies of the bible come true?

Excelsior

the faith, castor, comes in when you choose to believe he did exist.
there are very personal reasons why that decision might be made.
but i think all of us can accept that neither christians nor non-christians will prove the existence of or non existence of a God called jesus anytime soon. it will remain faith.
as for your historian theory, blitzie, there may well be, but that means nothing at all to me.
partly because their theories are overruled by my faith but also, instinctively because mary magdelen means nothing to me as a christian. i amn't a catholic so i dont intend to placate women and hide my mysoginist theories behind the worship of two marys who play minor roles in this whole thing.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Excelsior:
as for your historian theory, blitzie, there may well be, but that means nothing at all to me.partly because their theories are overruled by my faith

Blind faith must be nice - to just be able to say 'oh no you are wrong because I beleive something different' - how cosy that must be.

Excelsior

i am so grateful i have you to look down on me castor. it makes me even more warm and secure than my beloved myths and legends.

Jak

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
Blind faith must be nice - to just be able to say 'oh no you are wrong because I beleive something different' - how cosy that must be.

...Not to mention dangerous.

Hobbes

I believe I am what you call an agnostic.

This is turning into a flame war, let's make it a bit more light hearted.

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods, admiring all that the "accident of evolution" had created. "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself....

As he walked alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. As he turned to look, he saw a seven-foot grizzly charge towards him! He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him. He tried to run even faster, so scared that tears were coming to his eyes. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer! His heart was pumping frantically as he tried to run even faster, but he tripped and
fell on the ground.

He rolled over to pick himself up and saw the bear right on top of him, raising his paw to kill him. At that instant, he cried out "Oh my God!"...and all time stopped.

The bear froze; the forest was silent; the river even stopped moving. A bright light shone upon the man, and a voice came out of the sky saying, "You deny my existence all of these years; teach others I don't exist, even credit my creation to a 'cosmic accident,' and now do you expect me to help you in your time of need? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist, ever so proud, looked into the light and said "It would be rather hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all
these years, but could you make the bear a Christian?"

"Very well," said the voice.

As the light went out, the river ran, and the sounds of the forest continued, the bear put his paw down. The bear then brought both paws together,bowed is head and said: "Lord, I thank you for this food, which I am about to receive."

Canaboid

Nice "parable" Hobbes

Blind faith without the ability to reason why or justify, is exactly the crux of the problems caused by all organised religons. We are right because we blindly believe and therefore we can justify any wrongdoing in the eyes of our one true Lord in whose name we act and fu(k everyone else because they're heathens.
Blind faith is a pathetic cop out in the absence of facts. I don't know the facts of creation either but I'll continue to seek answers until I come up something better than "Thats the why".

Can I ask the pro god lobby if they feel I will be excluded from the kingdom of heaven (assuming I'm wrong) based on my (lack of) belief ?

TwoShedsJackson

I'm not looking down at you Excelsior - it's more looking sideways in disbelief.

C B

In reality we all have belief systems (be they spiritual or not), and all belief systems are based on some degree of faith. Problems should only arise when we refuse to abandon our beliefs when facts prove them to be incorrect. In the words of Charles Darwain:

I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved (and I cannot resist forming one on every subject), as soon as the facts are shown to be opposed to it.

in truth nobody can disprove the beliefs of Christians (or Budhists or whatever) but most of us have faith that they are wrong and will be disproven.
We should not therefore be dismissive of the faith of others when our own opinions are also based on faith.

---

What about China? Have you seen the great wall?

All walls are great if the roof doesn't fall!

C B

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
Debatable, to say the least. There are no reasons to beleive he did exsist, either. I think that an influential rabbi or holy man did exsist around that time, around whom the stories and myths in the Bible are based.

Well I hate to side with the God boys and jesus freaks again but there is actual prove in Roman census that a Jesus did exist. he was born in bethleham in 4 BC (ironic ) and was cruxified in 29 AD. There are also scethcy non-Bible accounts of his religious activities. i believe that Christ was a great social philosipher (i mean do on to others as you would like them to do to you - pretty revolutionary stuff for Jewish society) and that all the spiritual bull**** was added (by himself or somebody else) to make it more acceptable to the people at the time.)

---

What about China? Have you seen the great wall?

All walls are great if the roof doesn't fall!

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 16-10-2000).]

Shiminay

OK, in a turn around of things - I think the "God Squad" will support me here (j/k name guys)...

For those of us who don't believe in a one true God (or whatever religion you're against), what do YOU think happens after you die?

Personally, I believe in re-incarnation. I don't believe in the "leading a good life and be rewarded with a better one next time round" thing (that's Buddism, innit?). I believe I'll come back as a regular Joe (or Josiphine) Soap as I started this life.

This is what frightened me out of belief of God - I couldn't handle the whole soul in heaven thing. It freaked me out! I (up untill I came to my current belief) used to have nightmares about my "soul" being trapped in a coffin in the ground. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I suppose all faith has a touch of silliness about it (if one looks at it in a light-hearted way).

So, let's have ye infidel-pig-dogs!

---

All the best,

Hobbes

Agnostic = One who believes that there can be no proof of the existence of God but does not deny the possibility that God exists

So who is to say what happens after we die?

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by C B:
Well I hate to side with the God boys and jesus freaks again but there is actual prove in Roman census that a Jesus did exist. he was born in bethleham in 4 BC (ironic ) and was cruxified in 29 AD.

I am not disputing that a man of that name exsisted at that time per se. What I would question is if he was the son of God. Also, Excelsior, I am not trying to put you or other Christians down, but I think you suffer some sort of persecution complex - when anyone posts anything here that questions your Christian beliefs you are on the defensive so fast it'd make your head spin.

WhiteWashMan

i fond it funny that people can have blind faith. a sort of mulder approach. personally i dont. im pretty scientificly minded.
isnt it ironic thought that if there is a a higher being or god involved, its called faith, if its something otherwise, its called witchcraft....
makes you wonder really.

do you believe in the virgin mary. lets face, protestants dont (one up on the catholics there ). seriously can you honestly say you believe in the virgin mary.
i bet you dont. but whats different in believing that one story and believing in a god?
whats the difference? is it because we both know basic biology? or we dont know about something that hasnt been discovered by the peons of humanity. something secret that only the special are allowed in on and snigger behind hands at the rest of us about?

again, whats the difference in faith and superstition?

[This message has been edited by WhiteWashMan (edited 17-10-2000).]

Blitzkrieger

just to clarify - I wasn't condoneing blind faith as an excuse for whatever wrong you want to perpetrate - I was just pointing out if you believe something sometimes there doesn't always have to be a rational argument. I persoanally don't beleive in god but I know there's many things we don't understand about oursevles

C B

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
personally i dont. im pretty scientificly minded.

So are you saying that you only believe in thing where you can be 100% certain?

I think this is simply false as you express a variety of personal opinions on a variety of topics on which you are not fully informed ( this is not meant as an attack on you we all make leaps of faith to fill in the gaps in our knowledge and arrive at opinions which are acceptable to our principles)

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 17-10-2000).]

Excelsior

i thought i would be done in writing to this topic.
i get defensive, i would give you that. but castor, surely you can accept that faith, be it christian or otherwise is constantly attacked. i have reason to be passionate on these things.
faith is blind. otherwise it isn't faith. and the idea that it is inherently dangerous is wrong.
it is only dangerous if misplaced.
and not one of you can prove that to me.
i do not intend to prove the inverse either.
i amn't here to convert you, i couldn't and have no desire to. but i feel a need to improve understanding of christianity. it isn't irrational and we as christians aren't either.
i am studying to be a scientist. i am not an unscientific man.
i am not a catholic. so i believe in the existence of mary. whether she is a virgin is a moot point, but she is not someone i pray to or worship. i pray only to my God. mary and all the saints are but people and they can do nothing for me.
MASSIVE OPINION COMING UP: ARGUE IT AS SUCH;
to say that jesus was a great teacher somehow has always rang false with me.
he is either the son of God, sent to redeem us and save us, or he is a lunatic with psychotic delusions who struck it lucky, in the form of david koresh or l. ron hubbard.
why? if he wasn't God, he sure as heck believed he was, and he had people die on his behalf because of it. he wasn't to be trusted because he was a loon. as my science friend rory says, "his brain was looped." because of this little mistake of his with regards to personal identification, he can't be trusted on anything. i wouldnt let someone falsely caliming to be God into my life, and neither would i trust his teachings.
i believe he wa God because of the gospels. they are between myth and history, but not quite either. they are lit by a source uniquely different to both. they are lit by a source outside of this world.
this might shock and astonish people but this is the truest thing i know;
when i pray to God, he responds. i feel Him in and around me. my troubles that i pray about resolve themselves. worry and aggression is relieved and i know that there is a prescence there. that is why i have faith.
don't mock it.
don't deride it.
don't analyze it away.
accept that as a personal testimony.
and if there is a reason why i shouldn't believe based on it, i guess my blind faith needs to be destroyed so share it with me.

i think i have taken up enough of this topic.
sorry for the length and the weirdiness.

Canaboid

Excel, I don't agree with a single word you've said but fair play to you for wearing your heart on your sleeve. At least your honest so theres hope for you yet

If I'm wrong about all this I'm going to bunk in to heaven over the wall anyway.

Chubby

Originally posted by Excelsior:
but castor, surely you can accept that faith, be it christian or otherwise is constantly attacked. i have reason to be passionate on these things.
faith is blind. otherwise it isn't faith.

So would you kiss hank's a$$??!?! http://www.sonic.net/~jhuger/kisshank.htm. Please read the little story in the url.


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 17-10-2000).]

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by C B:
So are you saying that you only believe in thing where you can be 100% certain?

I think this is simply false as you express a variety of personal opinions on a variety of topics on which you are not fully informed ( this is not meant as an attack on you we all make leaps of faith to fill in the gaps in our knowledge and arrive at opinions which are acceptable to our principles)

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 17-10-2000).]

understood, but im incline to go with things that can be proved and understood. it doesnt mean i dont have my opinions on space aliens etc, i just happen to with what seems sensible and provable.
akeems razor (or however you spell it) theory....the simpilest reason is usual the correct one...
being pretty scientifically minded doesnt mean only believing the provable things it means being more on the side of provable ideas. in my eyes anyway. and theres no way you can scientifically prove an opinion anyway?

what i wrote wasnt an attack as suh, i just find it mildly amusing that some people catagorise one thing as one thing and another thing as another, and yet the two things are in principle the same...

personally i have no belief. nor do i have a problem with belief, like anyone, unless its pushed on me.
mind you i had a friend once who was really trying to push his amways pyramid selling on me. that offended me more than any religious freaks who anooyed me on my doorstep...
makes you wonder whos more eveil. the religious people, or the sales people, sorry, sales executives

pepperkin

Oh my goddess, how did I miss this topic? Bard, why didn't you tell me!
I am going to toss in MY two cents! (but why not, everyone else is!!)
I'm PAGAN! Yep, that's right, I don't believe in Jesus, God, Satan, or the Bible.
I believe in nature, and life, and a Goddess and a God, I believe in reincarnation, and I think most horoscopes are bunk.
I don't run around chanting with crystals, or trying to reach Elvis through "channels" I am NOT a bloody New Age freak, I'm just...pagan. and extremely proud to be so.
I think my beliefs are right...FOR ME.
I also believe Excelsior beliefs are right...for HIM. and so on, and so forth, down the line, to each and every person who reads this.
Faith is faith simply because it can not be proven, it is illogical. Yet you gather any random 6 people from any given church, and their beliefs will be different in some ways. That's because we ALL believe in what we feel, deep down, is right to believe...or NOT to believe, as the case may be.
Does that make it right to slaughter babies in the name of some Satan? NO! Because to cause harm in the name or for ANY religion or belief system is wrong, no matter HOW you look at it.
We have one rule. "An It Harm None, Do As Thou Wilt."
Get the picture? Religion is not wrong, on the other hand there's organized religion...well, they had the right IDEA, unfortunately you gather more than ten people together and you usually get a mod mentality. To quote from a movie (10 points to whomever recognizes it) "A person is smart, PEOPLE are stupid."
and to finish up my two cents (or was it ten cents?) worth...to quote from another movie, a line in which I wholeheartedly agree..
"It doesn't matter WHAT you have faith in, as long as you HAVE faith."
I take that to mean as long as you have faith in something, even something so small as the sun will rise in the morning and set in the evening, then you're on the right track.
The pagan has spoken! (Oh and lest I forget, the sinner pagan is also a single never been married mother of two PERFECT children, who has broken every commandment in the "Bible" at least once, and whom tends to avoid church...yet my children are well fed, happy, good kids, I rescue spiders and set them outside, and every stray in the neighborhood finds me knowing they'll have a home, and my friends tell me they simply can't live without me because I help them out so much...am I damned? do I care?)
*grins* this was not a heavy message, I laugh at myself frequently, feel free to join in.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by pepperkin:
(Oh and lest I forget, the sinner pagan is also a single never been married mother of two PERFECT children,....

Up until there I was thinking it is Gary Coleman!!!

Originally posted by pepperkin:
"A person is smart, PEOPLE are stupid."

This is kinda what I was saying but replace people with the catholic church / any religion. O - and replace person with me

pepperkin

oh, my gods. Gary COLEMAN??
I'm the wrong race, wrong sex, a little taller and a lot cuter
And like I said about organized religion...it was a good IDEA...but.
And I do have to admit, the Catholic Church does tend to have their head stuck up their posterior in a lot of ways...

Canaboid

Cuter than Gary Coleman - impossible.
He's as cute as a bug's ear.

Bard

It's true.

She is.

Oldman doesn't hold a candle to her.

---

Canaboid

Originally posted by Bard:
Oldman doesn't hold a candle to her.

What you talkin' bout Willis
It's coleman not oldman.

C B

Originally posted by pepperkin:
He's pickin' on meeeee!!!! That's what's going on here!
Just a sinnocent blonde...that's all...just me...
*grins*

Would that be more sin than nocent?

pepperkin

*grins* THATS a secret

Bard

Originally posted by Canaboid:
What you talkin' bout Willis
It's coleman not oldman.

Bah... Oldman, Coleman, Coalman, any old man,... Makes no difference, pepperkin's still cuter

---

C B

O.K what the he11 is going on here. Less smiles and more flames I say.

pepperkin

He's pickin' on meeeee!!!! That's what's going on here!
Just a sinnocent blonde...that's all...just me...
*grins*