Hand from last night (Monday)

bohsman

35 or so players left, blinds are 400/800 Ive got 13k, I get dealt KTo on the SB one of the older players who is an utter rock flat calls in lp, flop comes KQT rainbow, I check BB checks Rock goes all in for 11k, he has pushed all in over the top of raisers a number of times preflop and the only time he was called he had KK, what do you do?

Hitman Actual

First of all, I wouldn't call with KT here in SB... if I'm going to play it I'll raise and try and pick up the BB and limper money; but most of the time it's an automatic fold (for me anyway). I just don't see how KT can be ahead of the rock pre-flop.

When you do hit out of position, a bet is probably the better option... when he moves all-in you've no idea where you stand. He could have KQ (unlikely), or a pair with a draw, maybe a set of tens and he doesn't like the board? The only other thing I can see is a small pair bluff.

Tough one to call, I probably fold reluctantly.

bmc

Nah, he's playing top pair with a big kicker and the draw...

Go with it!

Although I was recently apologising to someone after I egged them on in a similar situation

DeVore

Hmmmmmm toughie. He could have AJ, AK, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, KJ and may well have played it the same way with any of them so of those you are behind 5 out of 8. Not good. Even where you are ahead, they have good draws. AQ is unlikely because he's got mid pair and a middle pin for a straight. If he's a rock he's not pushing all in on that.
The best you can hope for here is AK or AA and even then if an Ace or Queen comes or the river pairs the turn you could be in a world of pain.

Its a toughie, but I'd let it go. I cant see too many hands I'm going to be happy to see him turn over other then a total bluff... So it depends on your read of him too... is he bluffing to capitalise on his image?
I'd probably fold, sitting here in front of a computer. I might not, at the table!

DeV.

Hyzepher

The problem here is all of your own making. I wouldn't necessarily criticise playing KT but you have to bet the flop - even in early position - to get a sense of what is going on. His flat call pre-flop is a big clue to what he has. In fact I would put him on a mid pair or an average suited Ace.

I would have called pre-flop with the KT and then bet out approx. 2500 with the 2 pair. I would also have seriously considered calling a re-raise if he had continued to go all-in - depends if I know his style of play or not.

But that's just me.

Hyzepher

mewso

I do wonder though if here is a missed opportunity to go into the flop with more information. You could make a minimum raise here pre-flop if you are suspicious about this rocks flat call pre-flop. See how he reacts to your raise. Just pondering this. Good idea/bad idea?

Shortstack

So he has over bet the pot of 2400 by another 8600 ? Either he has TPTK and wants to protect it or he has an underpair and it's a bluff. Depends which older player it is. If it is only him, you and the BB would he not have tried to steal preflop with KQ, KT or AJ ? Have you seen him limp with KK or QQ before ? Not many players limp with 10 10 either in LP. It all comes down to your individual read on the situation. If you call and he has a set or a straight you still have outs to a boat! If you fold you are still in good shape but if you call and win you are obviously gonna be delighted. Personally, I would put him on an underpair and you should bust him.
PS: If you are playing KT how much more of the flop do want ?

careca

I would probably put him on KQ and fold even though I agree with Shortstack about how much of the flop do you want. Its just too scary. I can't see him with AJ as he would have probably milked it a bit more. The other hand could be JJ and he wants to win in there and then. Too scary, fold is the safer option.

Iago

I'd call, if he has AJ then he's going to check, not overbet the pot, can't see him limping with pocket TT or above so that rules out a set..

KJ...maybe but you're still ahead here.

I'm putting him on either TPTK or KJ, JJ, or possibly even QT suited. In which case the flop has terrified him and he wants it closed before someone hits a straight or a better two pair.

Have to call

bmc

Iago wrote:

I'd call, if he has AJ then he's going to check, not overbet the pot, can't see him limping with pocket TT or above so that rules out a set..

KJ...maybe but you're still ahead here.

I'm putting him on either TPTK or KJ, JJ, or possibly even QT suited. In which case the flop has terrified him and he wants it closed before someone hits a straight or a better two pair.

Have to call

My sentiments (all be it, fleshed out a little more completely) exactly!

Juan Pablo

Hmm the all in bet is sus; it really depended which old lad it was. i'll sit on the fence with this one and say either fold or all in depending on your gut. but prob all in!

Had a hand early last night where i contemplated folding Cowboys. Blinds at 25/50 teddy has just done me for half my chips so i'm down to 1950 and get the cowboys utg. i make it 300 to go and the punter on my left makes it 2000 real quick and is called by a tight player who only ever seems to play big slick. Which is what i put her on. but what has muggins on my left got. big raise like that. Has he the boots and should i drop these boys? Nah overbet lie that smelt like big slick also. Flop comes out rag rag rag rag ..... Ace! Lassy goes allin for the rest of her chips and is called; she flips over Big Slick to take the pot he shows AQ and i'm getting an expensive rebuy!

That rebuy went fairly quick thans to having PP's runner runner flushed two hands in a row and i'm out just before the break. Then loose all my hard earned brag money when my crappy AA runs into a J9 monster at the cash game and i was also clamped while all this was transpiring :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

[end rant\;

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

I do wonder though if here is a missed opportunity to go into the flop with more information. You could make a minimum raise here pre-flop if you are suspicious about this rocks flat call pre-flop. See how he reacts to your raise. Just pondering this. Good idea/bad idea?

Sorry to disagree again but this is bad idea. You have a mediocre hand and you are out of position, so putting more chips into the pot is a bad idea; plus what information are you going to get? Hes never going to fold, all he might do is raise if hes slowplayed a big pair (which I think is very unlikely). So he call, which tells us that he still has two cards.

Hectorjelly

My guess is that he has a set, and 10 10 10 is the most obvious one. Massive overbets tend to be very strong hands, but not the nuts (except on the river) so I dont think he has AJ. KQ is another possibility, and AK a very distant one. I think a fold is in order since you beat so little of his possible hands.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Sorry to disagree again but this is bad idea. You have a mediocre hand and you are out of position, so putting more chips into the pot is a bad idea; plus what information are you going to get? Hes never going to fold, all he might do is raise if hes slowplayed a big pair (which I think is very unlikely). So he call, which tells us that he still has two cards.

*splutter*


Mediocre what now?! KT is a monster. HJ I'm surprised and shocked at you.


Shocked so I am.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

*splutter*


Mediocre what now?! KT is a monster. HJ I'm surprised and shocked at you.


Shocked so I am.

DeV.

Its certainly no Kj offsuit

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its certainly no Kj offsuit

I think my KJ is good too

DeV.

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

Sorry to disagree again but this is bad idea. You have a mediocre hand and you are out of position, so putting more chips into the pot is a bad idea; plus what information are you going to get? Hes never going to fold, all he might do is raise if hes slowplayed a big pair (which I think is very unlikely). So he call, which tells us that he still has two cards.

Yeah you're right. I suppose the bet on the flop is move or is this one of those situations you can't avoid unless you let the KJ go pre-flop.

bohsman

I put him on trip tens or KQ and is overbetting the pot to not let any lone jack draw earlier he had overbet to get rid of any potential flushers, if I had raised preflop I am sure he would have gone all in, I dropped it and went on to make a monkey for 9th but that was the one hand that stuck out

Spiritus

Shortstack wrote:

PS: If you are playing KT how much more of the flop do you want ?

Well said.

bohsman

well KKT would have been nice, I was planning on check raising till the all in.

Davey Devil

Why did you check the flop Oscar? Were you trapping or did you sense you were behind?

I'd say you were ahead and would have taken the pot with a pot-sized bet.


Edit: Just saw your post, I think Mr.Rock was taking advantage of his image. Check, Check he's got a piece of it and reckons he can take it down with a big bet. I'm calling this one but I would have bet the pot in which case he would have folded.

Hectorjelly

Rocks dont tend to capitilise on their rock image, and they dont tend to make huge overbets with Top Pair Good Kicker.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Rocks dont tend to capitilise on their rock image, and they certainly dont make huge overbets on stone cold bluffs.

Smart Rocks do...


Cos, I didnt see you turn over 64o the other night when everyone folded to your min raise UTG..

DeV.

Davey Devil

I think the rock knows the other 2 players are very weak on this flop. They have both seen the flop from the blinds. He is in position after the 2 players checking. I'm putting him on K,J or Q,J maybe A,10. He's cought some of the flop, thinks he's a mile ahead and so doesn't mind lashing all his chips at it because he knows he's not getting called in a million years. It's a brave call but I think I'm a good bit ahead with K,10 the way this hand has been played.

Hectorjelly

Davey Devil wrote:

I think the rock knows the other 2 players are very weak on this flop. They have both seen the flop from the blinds. He is in position after the 2 players checking. I'm putting him on K,J or Q,J maybe A,10. He's cought some of the flop, thinks he's a mile ahead and so doesn't mind lashing all his chips at it because he knows he's not getting called in a million years. It's a brave call but I think I'm a good bit ahead with K,10 the way this hand has been played.

There is 2400 in the pot. Why would anyone bet 11k? Good/Normal players tend to only make gigantic overbets for very good reasons. A bet of 2/3k is enough to find out if anyone else has part of the flop.

Davey Devil

Oscar said he was a rock, he never said he was a good player.

bohsman

Hes not one of the better rocks but good enough to have been overbetting to stop anyone from hitting their straight, possible he had AJ and was looking to catch someone, I dont think hes good enough to use his rock image to bluff.

Davey Devil

I'd seriously doubt it. The only hand I think he can have here that's beating you is K,Q. I think he would have raised with any of the other hands that are beating you.

Hectorjelly

Davey Devil wrote:

I'd seriously doubt it. The only hand I think he can have here that's beating you is K,Q. I think he would have raised with any of the other hands that are beating you.

Lots of people limp in with 10 10, or as Bohsman said he might of been fishing for some action with AJ. Id be very surprised if K10 was ahead here.

dirkey_wynne

Juan Pablo wrote:

Hmm the all in bet is sus; it really depended which old lad it was. i'll sit on the fence with this one and say either fold or all in depending on your gut. but prob all in!

Had a hand early last night where i contemplated folding Cowboys. Blinds at 25/50 teddy has just done me for half my chips so i'm down to 1950 and get the cowboys utg. i make it 300 to go and the punter on my left makes it 2000 real quick and is called by a tight player who only ever seems to play big slick. Which is what i put her on. but what has muggins on my left got. big raise like that. Has he the boots and should i drop these boys? Nah overbet lie that smelt like big slick also. Flop comes out rag rag rag rag ..... Ace! Lassy goes allin for the rest of her chips and is called; she flips over Big Slick to take the pot he shows AQ and i'm getting an expensive rebuy!

That rebuy went fairly quick thans to having PP's runner runner flushed two hands in a row and i'm out just before the break. Then loose all my hard earned brag money when my crappy AA runs into a J9 monster at the cash game and i was also clamped while all this was transpiring :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

[end rant\;

Ah, JP, it's good to finally put a face to the name. You're the guy from the national lottery ad right? You know the one - you're that guy, the one who buys the banana at the end right??

Davey Devil

I wouldn't but we will never know. I just think the blinds looked weak and thought it was an easy steal because he cought some of the flop and most likely is miles ahead.

Put yourself in the rock's position. He probably thinks the blinds are playing junk and he can take this one down easily with a big bet.

I think if he'd have limped with 10's, he's not gonna lash all his chips at it when it looks as though the blinds can't even beat a bluff.