FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

Poker_Peter

Memnoch wrote:

but all immigrants ARE NOT asylum seekers, therefore to take an attribute (weather real or imagined) about asylum seekers and apply it to immigrants is purposefully misleading, and only serves to weaken the arguement.

Do you deny that the main motivation for Third World migrants coming to Ireland is an economic one?

oscarBravo

Poker_Peter wrote:

I don't accept the use of the word "permanent" as a credible legal definition of an immigrant. Otherwise you could argue that no-one is an immigrant until they are dead, which is kind of crazy :rolleyes:

That's a stupid argument. I've lived in Ireland all my life; never lived anywhere else. Are you going to tell me I'm not a permanent resident because I might live in another country in the future?

Poker_Peter

oscarBravo wrote:

That's a stupid argument. I've lived in Ireland all my life; never lived anywhere else. Are you going to tell me I'm not a permanent resident because I might live in another country in the future?

No! But you are not an immigrant in the sense that you did not migrate into this country.

oscarBravo

Poker_Peter wrote:

No! But you are not an immigrant in the sense that you did not migrate into this country.

I see. So the word "permanent" has a different meaning in the phrase "permanent immigrant" to that which it has in the phrase "permanent resident"?

Poker_Peter

oscarBravo wrote:

I see. So the word "permanent" has a different meaning in the phrase "permanent immigrant" to that which it has in the phrase "permanent resident"?

Taking that definition of an immigrant, there are therefore ZERO or almost zero Third World immigrants in Ireland then! :rolleyes:

(Shows the planet some of my opponents in this debate are living on!)

mycroft

Poker_Peter wrote:

(Shows the planet some of my opponents in this debate are living on!)

Still waiting for proof Al Qaeda are alledgedly operating in Ireland there PP

buellershow

As an American, my desire to move to Ireland is by no means economic. Not everyone relocates for those reasons.

Memnoch

Poker_Peter wrote:

Do you deny that the main motivation for Third World migrants coming to Ireland is an economic one?

when did I say it wasn't? The main motivation for a lot of people moving to a lot of places is economic. However in the case of asylum seekers people here make a lot of claims regarding how they are "sponging of the irish state," which is entirely different to people who come here legally and seeking to work and improve their lives through their hard work.

Lastly, what exactly is wrong with having an economic motivation?

SackvilleII

buellershow wrote:

Call this naieve but shouldn't legally clean people who wish to move to another nation to work for opportunity or love of the nation be allowed to do so in as many instances as possible? If one is truly seeking freedom, should not an American who wishes to work in Ireland be able to do so as simply as possible, and the same for the Irish citizen who wishes to come here. I've long held the dream of moving to Ireland (and have family background there, although not close enough to qualify for citizenship on that basis.) I do find some of the laws to be confusing, and perhaps even restrictive for someone who would want to be self-employed without a ton of start-up capital. But I have full faith that with perserverence at some point I will fulfill the dream of myself and my fiance' to have a new life in the land of our heritage, following our careers to the best of our God-given abilities. I believe things should be as simple as possible for normal law-abiding citizens who wish to make their way in the world. It's that simple for EU members who can go anywhere they wish at any time, should it not be also made simpler for others?

Just my rambling thoughts,

Bueller

In a perfect world Beuller the answer would be yes.

The problem with open, or at least loose borders in the early 21century is that there is simply too much imbalance in the world ( economic , demographic, developmental etc).

The push-pull factors which determine the rate, volume, skill level etc of immigration work to greatly in favour of mass, rapid, low-skilled immigration targeting the Countries of the 'North' .

This is potentially problematic for Northern Countries because of pressures it places on resources, low-skilled natives, social tensions and cultural preservation, assimulation problems, impact on environment , in the case of Europe Particularly Islamand its incompatibility with west culture etc.(and to some degree the Southern ones who are in constant danger of brain-drain).

Within Northern Countries there are those like neo-liberal economic ideologues (like The U.S Neocons), business interests and various fringe but very vocal (misguided IMO)'anti-racist' political movements who also support (sometimes fanatically) loose and even (de facto) zero border controls. This in itself is a source of tension within the host Countries.

That being said there is a Demographic problem in many of the Northern Countries so in is often in their interest to have a controlled immigration policy.

Sensible debate unfortunately seldom gets off the ground primarily due to the ‘anti-racists’ the new fascists of the West ,bullying, censoring, and maligning anyone who’d dare raise any real concerns (even though they are widespread and reasonable) and who delight in smearing as 'racist' any brave soul who’d dare utter a squeak questioning their fixed dogma.

They, along with interested pro-immigration owners control the media (including Discussion forums ) and, like the older fascists, dictate and abuse their even most reasoned and mild opponents.

Nonetheless they don’t have truth or the great mass of any population on their side. They are in the long term bound for failure and infamy-to be seen in the same light as the original Fascists they accuse so often of their opponents. Tyrants, misanthropes and bullies to the last!

MadsL

The problem with open, or at least loose borders in the early 21century is that there is simply too much imbalance in the world ( economic , demographic, developmental etc).

In what ways does Ireland have 'loose' borders? How specifically would you propose to tighten these borders? Are you saying that existing legislation is not tight enought. What specific laws would you change?

The push-pull factors which determine the rate, volume, skill level etc of immigration work to greatly in favour of mass, rapid, low-skilled immigration targeting the Countries of the 'North' .

What statistical evidence do you have that this is the case in Ireland?

This is potentially problematic for Northern Countries because of pressures it places on resources, low-skilled natives, social tensions and cultural preservation, assimulation problems, impact on environment , in the case of Europe Particularly Islamand its incompatibility with west culture etc.(and to some degree the Southern ones who are in constant danger of brain-drain).

Any incidents at all that you can point to that demonstrates this incompatability in Ireland? From what I can see Islam is very assimilated in Ireland (and peacefully so) - Any evidence to the contrary?

Sensible debate unfortunately seldom gets off the ground primarily due to the ‘anti-racists’ the new fascists of the West ,bullying, censoring, and maligning anyone who’d dare raise any real concerns (even though they are widespread and reasonable) and who delight in smearing as 'racist' any brave soul who’d dare utter a squeak questioning their fixed dogma.

In your opinion. Let's be objective then. What specific concerns do you have based on real evidence (as opposed you your opinion)?

They, along with interested pro-immigration owners control the media (including Discussion forums ) and, like the older fascists, dictate and abuse their even most reasoned and mild opponents.

It's a conspiracy then?? And boards is somehow part of this!?? :rolleyes:

Nonetheless they don’t have truth or the great mass of any population on their side. They are in the long term bound for failure and infamy-to be seen in the same light as the original Fascists they accuse so often of their opponents. Tyrants, misanthropes and bullies to the last!

So what is the truth? Do enlighten us with the hard evidence I have requested. Maybe we will all see the light!

Tyrants, misanthropes and bullies

Err...who exactly?

SackvilleII

MadsL wrote:

In what ways does Ireland have 'loose' borders? How specifically would you propose to tighten these borders? Are you saying that existing legislation is not tight enought. What specific laws would you change?


What statistical evidence do you have that this is the case in Ireland?


Any incidents at all that you can point to that demonstrates this incompatability in Ireland? From what I can see Islam is very assimilated in Ireland (and peacefully so) - Any evidence to the contrary?


In your opinion. Let's be objective then. What specific concerns do you have based on real evidence (as opposed you your opinion)?


It's a conspiracy then?? And boards is somehow part of this!?? :rolleyes:



So what is the truth? Do enlighten us with the hard evidence I have requested. Maybe we will all see the light!

Err...who exactly?

QED!

billy the squid

what happened to sackville one?

pete

billy the squid wrote:

what happened to sackville one?

deported

Roisin Dubh

Hi Memnoch. Just reading through this thread and something you said back there interests me:

when did I say it wasn't? The main motivation for a lot of people moving to a lot of places is economic. However in the case of asylum seekers people here make a lot of claims regarding how they are "sponging of the irish state," which is entirely different to people who come here legally and seeking to work and improve their lives through their hard work.

Lastly, what exactly is wrong with having an economic motivation?
21-02-2005 21:49

I agree that in one sense letting asylum-seekers work would reduce perceived "sponging". But....

Regardless of your opinion on the immigration issue, e.g. liberal or stricter, I think it stands to reason that we have a sovereign right to control immigration into our state. Now that might mean future governments wanting to liberalise/toughen the policies on immigration into Ireland. However, an essential component of this is separating out economic-migration from the asylum-system. I don't personally agree with letting asylum-seekers work because that amounts to bypassing legal-channels, e.g. work-permits, and the possible future Green Cards. Hence, it is unfair to the legal migrant workers, who had to pay for the work-permit, whereas the asylum-seekers didn't. Letting them work would be like a free work-permit. Hence it's unfair to those who took the legal channels.

Government control over economic-migration from outside the EU, in so far as it exists, is represented by the work-permit system. It allows the Government, having hopefully made an assessment of labour-shortages in Ireland, to let in the required numbers. But if you let asylum-seekers automatically work, then you effectively take the power over economic migration away from the Government, since all who enter, irrespective of numbers, can just work. I see that as a dimunition of national sovereignty, and I also feel it is undesirable because at some stage in the future e.g. a recession, we might find ourselves no longer in need of economic migrants, and might need to deport them. To do that, we need some form of traceability, e.g. work-permits. But if you let asylum-seekers work, it is harder to trace them.

gandalf

Sackville you have been banned from here already. I have now banned your new account and will ask the admins to remove your account(s) from Boards permanently.

Roisin Dubh

gandalf wrote:

Sackville you have been banned from here already. I have now banned your new account and will ask the admins to remove your account(s) from Boards permanently.

Gandalf if its ok, I would like to ask why Sackville was banned. Thanks

Immigrant wife

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I see that as a dimunition of national sovereignty, and I also feel it is undesirable because at some stage in the future e.g. a recession, we might find ourselves no longer in need of economic migrants, and might need to deport them. To do that, we need some form of traceability, e.g. work-permits. QUOTE]

What kind of government are you advocating. Deportation is an extremely serious move and a foreign national has to commit a serious breach of the law for it to be imposed. Once one is deported form a country, it is almost imposible to be granted entry into any other country inthe world. If Ireland starts deporting people because they need them economically, Ireland will almost certainly be charged with human rights offences and have sanctions imposed on it by the countries whose citizens they deported. I don't think the USA will appreciate having its citizens deported on economic terms if they have not breached the immigration laws. Refusing to renew work permits is one thing, deportation completely another.

Roisin Dubh

Immigrant wife wrote:

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I see that as a dimunition of national sovereignty, and I also feel it is undesirable because at some stage in the future e.g. a recession, we might find ourselves no longer in need of economic migrants, and might need to deport them. To do that, we need some form of traceability, e.g. work-permits. QUOTE]

What kind of government are you advocating. Deportation is an extremely serious move and a foreign national has to commit a serious breach of the law for it to be imposed. Once one is deported form a country, it is almost imposible to be granted entry into any other country inthe world. If Ireland starts deporting people because they need them economically, Ireland will almost certainly be charged with human rights offences and have sanctions imposed on it by the countries whose citizens they deported. I don't think the USA will appreciate having its citizens deported on economic terms if they have not breached the immigration laws. Refusing to renew work permits is one thing, deportation completely another.

Considering that you can earn so much more in the US, I find it hard to believe that there can be that many US people on work-permits here in this country. Regarding sanctions from the Third World, I wouldn't be that scared of that. Unlikely their sanctions could do that much harm to our economy.

I don't agree with your assertion that once they are deported from Ireland, no one else in Europe would take them. Countries that have skills-shortage problems might need them. In fact, I think we should consider deporting workers we no longer need to other EU countries experiencing skills-shortages, - unless the worker would prefer to go home.

BTW, my reference to deportations of this kind is hypothetical .We probably don't need to do it yet. But in a future economic crisis where unemployment rises we may need to consider it.

gandalf

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Gandalf if its ok, I would like to ask why Sackville was banned. Thanks

For continually posting opinion as facts.

MadsL

Considering that you can earn so much more in the US, I find it hard to believe that there can be that many US people on work-permits here in this country.

There are 165 companies of American Origin operating in Dublin alone...think about it.

http://www.idaireland.com/home/company_search.aspx?id=4&company_name=&company_area=0&company_county=DUBL&company_country=US+

In fact, I think we should consider deporting workers we no longer need to other EU countries experiencing skills-shortages, - unless the worker would prefer to go home.

Err... like who. To where. Don't they get a say in this??

Imagine Garda Immigration Bureau....
Germany or Home? What's it to be, mate? Hurry up, 390 of you lot to process..<mutter>....be quicker with gas chambers...

Do me a favour and Cop the f.ck on.

Popperised

pete wrote:

deported

Yes, absolutely. -To the (cyber) Gulags that is!!! :mad:

In a repressive society truthtelling is a form of resistance!!

Popperised

gandalf wrote:

For continually posting opinion as facts.

And by doing so have shown that 'anti-racism'= militant 'open borderism'/open border fundamentalism

no immigration releted threads/ posts here have served to disprove this equation.

Roisin Dubh

MadsL wrote:

There are 165 companies of American Origin operating in Dublin alone...think about it.

http://www.idaireland.com/home/company_search.aspx?id=4&company_name=&company_area=0&company_county=DUBL&company_country=US+

Oh come on. I am clearly not talking about First World immigrants. I am talking about developing world immigrants. Economic factors are far more likely to attract someone from the Third World to the West from a developing world, than to attract persons from other First World countries. I am not including bosses in my argument. I am referring to employees of Third World origin. 133,000 have gone to the UK from the new member states in the 6 months since EU Enlargement alone and I think that backs up what I am saying. Read the source below. Okay so they are from the new EU states, but the pull-factors are clearly at work there, and are therefore suitable for comparing with immigration from the Third World in general.:

http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=18481

Err... like who. To where. Don't they get a say in this??

Imagine Garda Immigration Bureau....
Germany or Home? What's it to be, mate? Hurry up, 390 of you lot to process..<mutter>....be quicker with gas chambers...

Do me a favour and Cop the f.ck on.

Gas chambers? I don't recall mentioning those. Over active imagination methinks.

I would arrange that as part of the procedure for getting a work-permit, the applicant would need to sign a form agreeing to the procedures I mentioned in my earlier post. So they DO get a say in it

billy the squid

Oh come on. I am clearly not talking about First World immigrants. I am talking about developing world immigrants. Economic factors are far more likely to attract someone from the Third World to the West from a developing world, than to attract persons from other First World countries. I am not including bosses in my argument. I am referring to employees of Third World origin. 133,000 have gone to the UK from the new member states in the 6 months since EU Enlargement alone and I think that backs up what I am saying. Read the source below. Okay so they are from the new EU states, but the pull-factors are clearly at work there, and are therefore suitable for comparing with immigration from the Third World in general.:

you are just as free to go to their country as they are to come to this one, (new eu citizens that is) that is what the EU is all about nowadays.

Roisin Dubh

billy the squid wrote:

you are just as free to go to their country as they are to come to this one, (new eu citizens that is) that is what the EU is all about nowadays.

I know that. I was just using the immigration statistics as backing for my argument that economic pull-factors encourage migration from poorer countries to richer ones, and hence most of the work permits would be going to persons from poorer countries. Whether immigration controls should be applied to persons from the new EU member states is another issue entirely.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your claim that this is what the EU is about anyway. If that were true, 13 EU states wouldn't be imposing immigration restrictions on the new 10 members.

buellershow

So where does this leave the Americans and Canadians in this all? I know several people, myself included, who have Irish ancestry and would be far happier making less money in Ireland than more in the States just to be a part of a country we could love and cherish in a way we don't feel about where we currently live?

Roisin Dubh

buellershow wrote:

So where does this leave the Americans and Canadians in this all? I know several people, myself included, who have Irish ancestry and would be far happier making less money in Ireland than more in the States just to be a part of a country we could love and cherish in a way we don't feel about where we currently live?

I am only talking about Third World migrants so you are not affected. There is hardly going to be a stampede of migrants from the First World to Ireland so I don't have so much of a problem there.

Even so, there are procedures in place already governing what you asked about and so if you want to come here, I advise you to pursue them

MadsL

There is hardly going to be a stampede of migrants from the First World to Ireland so I don't have so much of a problem there.

But the largest groups of migrants in Ireland are from first world countries not EU-enlargement countries and Third World countries.

Roisin Dubh

MadsL wrote:

But the largest groups of migrants in Ireland are from first world countries not EU-enlargement countries and Third World countries.

OK. But what evidence have you that on a trend basis, more First World migrants than Third World migrants are coming here annually?

billy the squid

and hence most of the work permits would be going to persons from poorer countries

wouldnt that exclude most of the world given that Ireland is now one of the richest countries in the world?

However, I don't necessarily agree with your claim that this is what the EU is about anyway. If that were true, 13 EU states wouldn't be imposing immigration restrictions on the new 10 members

isn't that only for seven years? and my apologies if you misunderstood my point. but wasn'. the original purpose of the european union to encourage free trade, and later free movement of people within its member states.

as an aside I personally disagree with the 7 year delay on new members having free movement within the EU. I think it is a little rich for the likes of Germany to vote for this in leu of the fact that when east and west Germany were unified, and east Germany then became a member of the EU, there were no such restrictions on east German citezens. even though they were just as poor if not poorer than the 10 new EU countries.