FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

MadsL

I said controls. I never said those sorts of controls! How presumptious of you!

Thin end of the wedge.

BTW, are you saying the rest of Europe are "totalitarian"?

Name me one other European country that 'exports' it's surplus non-EU labour in the manner that you are suggesting.

I'll also answer your other question for you. Although immigrant wife has done a sterling job on this already.

Roisin Arcade Dubh Game wrote:

Why do you think that Irish citizenship is necessary for foreigners working in Ireland?

It is not. But the problem is it that there is very little else on offer for the long-term immigrant. Here are your options;

1. Stay with the same employer until you qualify for citizenship (5 years) during which time the employer knows you have very little choice as to working conditions. If conditions become intolerable you have the choice of;

a. Attempt to change jobs - alll dependant on the employer being able to prove that an Irish worker cannot be found for the job.
b. Attempt to obtain permission to remain whilst you look for work.
c. Go illegal (bang goes your citizenship)
d. Marry an Irish citizen (even then you can still be deported)
e. Marry an EU citizen (even greyer area)

Should you decide that you do not wish to take out citizenship (some countries require that you renounce your citizenship and will not give dual nationality) this situation continues indefinately until you die or leave, regardless of the amount of tax you pay.

Now surely, there should be some form of intermediate step for long-stay workers (perhaps with an Irish-born child, or unmarried partners here) that gives them some flexibility in working conditions - like the FAS Greencard proposal - Is that too much to ask?

Roisin Dubh

Now surely, there should be some form of intermediate step for long-stay workers (perhaps with an Irish-born child, or unmarried partners here) that gives them some flexibility in working conditions - like the FAS Greencard proposal - Is that too much to ask?

I would only accept this if the jobs the person can move between are in sectors of the economy experiencing labour-shortages.

To allow complete freedom of job choice would mean allowing competition with Irish labour. Irish workers will always lose out when competing for work with cheap labour.

ArthurDent

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I would only accept this if the jobs the person can move between are in sectors of the economy experiencing labour-shortages.

To allow complete freedom of job choice would mean allowing competition with Irish labour. Irish workers will always lose out when competing for work with cheap labour.

These are the areas in which non-EU citizens are allowed apply for work visas:

Information and computing technologies professionals/technicians
Architects
Construction Engineers
Quantity Surveyors
Building Surveyors
Town Planners
Registered Nurses
Medical Practitioners
Dentists
Diagnostic or Therapeutic Radiographers
Dieticians
Occupational Therapists
Orthoptists
Medical Physicists
Psychologists
Speech and Language Therapists
Social Workers
Medical Scientists
Physiotherapists
Hospital Pharmacists
ECG Technicians
Neurophysiological Measurement Technicians
Cardiac Catheterisation Technicians
Audiologists
Biochemists.


None of these areas strike me as ones in which minimum wage applies - so how will "cheap labour" beat Irish to these jobs. Or are you saying that if qualified people in these areas are allowed more freedom of movement in looking for jobs that they will move into lower paid jobs and take them from the Irish (shouldn't that be EU citizen anyway?)

Roisin Dubh

ArthurDent wrote:

These are the areas in which non-EU citizens are allowed apply for work visas:

Information and computing technologies professionals/technicians
Architects
Construction Engineers
Quantity Surveyors
Building Surveyors
Town Planners
Registered Nurses
Medical Practitioners
Dentists
Diagnostic or Therapeutic Radiographers
Dieticians
Occupational Therapists
Orthoptists
Medical Physicists
Psychologists
Speech and Language Therapists
Social Workers
Medical Scientists
Physiotherapists
Hospital Pharmacists
ECG Technicians
Neurophysiological Measurement Technicians
Cardiac Catheterisation Technicians
Audiologists
Biochemists.


None of these areas strike me as ones in which minimum wage applies - so how will "cheap labour" beat Irish to these jobs. Or are you saying that if qualified people in these areas are allowed more freedom of movement in looking for jobs that they will move into lower paid jobs and take them from the Irish (shouldn't that be EU citizen anyway?)

Why don't you think the minimum-wage applies to these occupations?

ArthurDent

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Why don't you think the minimum-wage applies to these occupations?

I meant , I doubt that any of these professionals are paid a minimum wage - I would imagine their salaries are considerably higher

Roisin Dubh

ArthurDent wrote:

I meant , I doubt that any of these professionals are paid a minimum wage - I would imagine their salaries are considerably higher

Well then yes, if they were allowed to work in jobs other than those on the list they might indeed get jobs for working as cheap-labour. Cheap labour need not mean below the minimum wage either, since the minimum wage is only 7 euro an hour.

ArthurDent

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Well then yes, if they were allowed to work in jobs other than those on the list they might indeed get jobs for working as cheap-labour. Cheap labour need not mean below the minimum wage either, since the minimum wage is only 7 euro an hour.

Oh please - do you expect anyone to believe that these well qualified, well paid professionals are going to leave these jobs, if there was more freedom of movement and head for jobs paying 7 euros an hour?

MadsL

Why would professionals work as cheap labour. Immigrants are looking to maximise their earning as much as anyone else?

I don't understand your reasoning - surely if they had the option to move they would move within the industry upwards in terms of salary??

MadsL

By the way 'Roisin' - you are Arcadegame2003, aren't you? I noticed you haven't denied it yet.

Roisin Dubh

MadsL wrote:

By the way 'Roisin' - you are Arcadegame2003, aren't you? I noticed you haven't denied it yet.

I don't know what gobbeldeegook you are talking about. I have no other name on this forum. However, I wonder can the same be said about you, given the propensity of posters on this forum to support liberal immigration policies. Are you "ArthurDent"?

ArthurDent

Roisin Dubh, instead of posting about possible split identities of posters (and by the way I've only ever used this name on boards.ie) any fear of you answering the questions posted to you, like the one below.....

ArthurDent wrote:

Oh please - do you expect anyone to believe that these well qualified, well paid professionals are going to leave these jobs, if there was more freedom of movement and head for jobs paying 7 euros an hour?

MadsL

I don't know what gobbeldeegook you are talking about. I have no other name on this forum. However, I wonder can the same be said about you, given the propensity of posters on this forum to support liberal immigration policies. Are you "ArthurDent"?

My apologies Roisin, I just find it odd that the starter of this thread was banned for 2 weeks in late Feb, and has not been seen since, and you show up in late Feb, and have only posted in these two immigration threads. No doubt Ecksor will have a point of view on this....

Personally, I am what I am and no other. I don't post under any other name.

dub45

MadsL wrote:

Why would professionals work as cheap labour. Immigrants are looking to maximise their earning as much as anyone else?

I don't understand your reasoning - surely if they had the option to move they would move within the industry upwards in terms of salary??

Many from non-western countries do! It can worth more for somebody professionally qualified to work in a menial job because they can actually earning more!
U have no ecomonic cop -yet you ban people who show a far deeper undestanding of socio-ecomonic issues.

dub45

MadsL wrote:

Nobody is suggesting that. However most countries with green-card schemes offer workers access to the job of their choice - that's the point being discussed here. Now, what part of that do you have a problem with.

Also, have you come up with the statistics to prove your opinion about a growing trend toward developing countries nationals coming here en-masse? Any time you are ready...

Don't be so pig ignorant. In any forum people can express a view without some little fascist creep using suppression of that by demanding backup. any civilised person understands a everyone has aright to aview and nobdy is bound to buy it totally or at all.

You should really try to understand the principles of freedom speech.

An dof course there' s any amount of the aboved mentioned swarming in.

dub45

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I would only accept this if the jobs the person can move between are in sectors of the economy experiencing labour-shortages.

To allow complete freedom of job choice would mean allowing competition with Irish labour. Irish workers will always lose out when competing for work with cheap labour.

2 rite!!!

but that won't cut ice with these open border headers!

MrPudding

dub45 wrote:

Don't be so pig ignorant. In any forum people can express a view without some little fascist creep using suppression of that by demanding backup. any civilised person understands a everyone has aright to aview and nobdy is bound to buy it totally or at all.

You should really try to understand the principles of freedom speech.

Don't think freedom of speach strictly works here.

The rules wrote:

When offering an opinion, please state so. Please do not present an opinion as "fact" - it only leads to flamage.
When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. Simply saying "a quick search on google...." is often, but not always, enough. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

You will find them here:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46807

MrP

MadsL

U have no ecomonic cop -yet you ban people who show a far deeper undestanding of socio-ecomonic issues.

Err...what??? Ecomonic cop??? I ban people????

sceptre

dub45 wrote:

U have no ecomonic cop -yet you ban people who show a far deeper undestanding of socio-ecomonic issues.

I believe the user you're addressing has no power to ban anyone, even himself. I on the other hand do and have some economic cop (assuming you're referring to either economic cop-on or some actual economics knowledge) which I've been willing to use here where it's worth the bother but haven't ever banned anyone for their views. As for freedom of speech, all that lark and allowing someone a soapbox (I call it a playground) where they're not willing (or sometimes able) to discuss their views (the word is "discuss", not "babble", not "declaim" and not anything else that isn't "discuss"), I reckon Mr Pudding (who also hasn't the power to ban anyone) has referenced and linked to the relevant section of the rules made to facilitate discusion on political (and sometimes economic or socio-economic) matters for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Put simply, if you want to state unreferenced opinion (or if anyone else chooses to do likewise) on any topic, that's all very well as long as you're ready for people to point out that it's got no verifiable basis in anything except for your own mind. Should you wish to state something as fact, be prepared for people to justifiably ask for some reference to back up your point. As for mixing up the two deliberately, I rather think none of us have time to sift through that. Anything else is a waste of everyone's time. Opening with effectively calling someone (though I'm not so sure who) an idiot is hardly a basis for reasonable anything, ditto calling someone "pig ignorant" so if you'd like to discuss something that's great but if you persist in threading your posts with insults you won't be allowed to, regardless of the expertise you bring to the table.

If you'd like to discuss the moderation on the board, it might be better if you did it with one of the mods (I'll happily volunteer) by PM or on the Help forum or Feedback forum if you care to do it in public. Having a side discussion on that here is basically just a disruption when there are other outlets and avenues.

Immigrant wife

If you think that qualified professionals i.e doctors, engineers, architects, etc. are going to take menial jobs in this country, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. What kind of menial job is going to earn them the kind of money they earn form their professions, or afford them any kind of job satisfaction.

Living in this country is expensive and in order to be able to live the kind of life that professionals from other countries are accustomed to in their own country, which is the same as any Irish professional here expects, they have to earn the same as an Irish professional, and do.

You seem to have a skewed idea of economics. Just because someone earned less in another country in euro terms, doesn't mean they were any less off. It all depends on the cost of living in a country. It can be explained like this:
If a person earns e.g. 1000 euro in Ireland but it costs them 980 euro to pay bills, eat etc., they will have very little to spend on luxuries.
If in a foreign country a person earns the equivalent of 200 euro but to pay their bills, eat etc. it only costs 100 euro, they will have spent only half of their earnings and have the rest to spend on luxuries.
Therefore earning 200 euro in a foreign country can be equated to earning 2000 euro in Ireland.
Therefore one can be considerably richer in a foreign country despite earning what seems in Irish terms to be far less. It is therefore completely meaningless to compare salaries without comparing the cost of living in the
different countries.
(P.S. I am not suggesting that Irish professionals only earn 1000 euro!)

Professionals move to other countries for many different reasons and I have yet to meet one who would take on menial work if given the chance. Some move so that they can earn more in their field, others because of lack of advancement opportunities, opportunities for their children, worries over security or crime, the opportunity to see the rest of the world, etc. There may well be a handful of people who would rather choose menial work but the vast majority have spent many years educating themselves (in a majority of cases at their own expense) and have chosen their career because of their abilities and interests. They are no more likely than an Irish doctor or engineer to decide to choose menial work.