FAS proposes Green-card-type system for non-EU workers

arcadegame2004

Speaking at the organisation’s annual conference, its chairman Robert Berney said that it was time for immigrant workers to be afforded the same conditions of employment as Irish workers.

If by that you mean they should be allowed apply for whatever job they want, then I say no. It would keep Irish wages down. Sorry to the foreigners but charity begins at home and on this point I will not budge.

However, I do think that a greater effort should be made by the State to provide immigrant workers with information on their legal rights including under the EU Working Time Directive (maximum 48-hour working week). The State should endeavour to ensure that laws such as these to protect workers from exploitation are being enforced. There are plainly far too few inspectors with respect to these issues, e.g. the minimum-wage is not being adequately enforced due to a lack of inspectors.

Now I see where you're coming from. You don't care what we pay the fuzzie-wuzzies, as long as Irish pay rates don't suffer. I'll take it you didn't object to Samantha Hutton's cleaning firm (requires registration, I can post the full article if required) exploiting Brazilian cleaners, failing to honour the terms of a contract and forcing 13 hour days on the cleaners. The effect of tying these immigrants to their employer was to infringe their rights. I'll take it thats ok with you.

I do object to her treating those workers that way. Hence read what I have said above. I still won't budge on the question of a blanket policy of handing all foreigners in the world the right to work in Ireland in whatever job they want.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland concurs.

They are unrepresentative of Irish public opinion as demonstrated by their opposition to the Citizenship-referendum amendment, as attested to here:

http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/prczn.htm

where they said:

the only sensible thing to do is to preserve the status quo by voting no."

These self-styled wise men and women are not representative of public-opinion, and in a democracy, public-opinion should guide the actions of a government, not political-correctness.

BTW, to those who argue that the Citizenship-referendum was not representative, I point out that all the polls said that the majority of voters, including of all but one Opposition Dail party, were on the "Yes" side. It was representative but I am quite happy to hold the referendum a second time with compulsory turnout if you like.

Frank Grimes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

They are unrepresentative of Irish public opinion as demonstrated by their opposition to the Citizenship-referendum amendment

So any group's opinion on anything to do with foreign people in this country is going to be judged by you based on their posistion on that referendum?
Yet again, that referendum was about citizenship. Not immigration.
What part of this concept is causing you the problem exactly?

Hence read what I have said above. I still won't budge on the question of a blanket policy of handing all foreigners in the world the right to work in Ireland in whatever job they want.

You're probably right there. There's quite a lot of foreign people in the world.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If by that you mean they should be allowed apply for whatever job they want, then I say no. It would keep Irish wages down. Sorry to the foreigners but charity begins at home and on this point I will not budge.

However, I do think that a greater effort should be made by the State to provide immigrant workers with information on their legal rights including under the EU Working Time Directive (maximum 48-hour working week). The State should endeavour to ensure that laws such as these to protect workers from exploitation are being enforced. There are plainly far too few inspectors with respect to these issues, e.g. the minimum-wage is not being adequately enforced due to a lack of inspectors.

Stunning stuff really. Utilise existing employment legislation to protect the rights of immigrant workers, guaranteeing them a minimum income and a safe and healthy workplace. So why the concern for pay rates for nationals? Surely that same legislation will guarantee the minimum wage for an Irish employee? Or do you now think there is a minimum wage we should pay Johnny Foreigner, and a higher minimum wage we should pay "our own"? Sounds discriminatory to me...

Not exactly free market ideology either. When a trade union tries to protect its members from the harsh realities of the market place you're up in arms, but God forbid we'd let some foreigners into the country for fear we'd reduce the pressure on wages seeing as our native workforce is effectively at a point of full employment.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The consumer has to come first. Business uses airlines and the higher the cost to business of flights to and from the EU, the higher the impact on inflation and that hurts people in their pockets. In the long run a more streamlined Aer Lingus that can give the consumer the lower fares he/she demands, will be far better placed to compete effectively with Ryanair/Easyjet etc.

Market-distorting state-intervention keeps prices artificially high for the consumer.

That was one of your many contributions on the privatise Aer Lingus thread. Funny that you want to streamline an airline by cutting staff numbers and reducing the ability of remaining staff to negotiate on a collective basis to maintain wage levels, yet on the other had you're happy to artificially inflate wages through excessive control of immigration.

You're response to the charge that "The PD's mantra should be "profit yes,worker's rights no" was to say

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So that's why Mary Harney introduced the minimum-wage. :rolleyes:

Make up your mind, please...the minimum wage protected workers rights, yes? So they should have nothing to fear from a little competition for their jobs, no?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I still won't budge on the question of a blanket policy of handing all foreigners in the world the right to work in Ireland in whatever job they want.

Not that anyone I'm aware of is suggesting that course of action...but why let the truth get in the way of a good soundbite?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

in a democracy, public-opinion should guide the actions of a government, not political-correctness.

Ours is a representative democracy. Once we elect them, out government is free to act as they choose. If you're unhappy with what they do during their time in office, you vote for someone else when the time comes. The current crowd are elected to govern, not to hop from one side of the ideological divide to the other trying to be all things to all men (not that they aren't trying...) If they bent to public opinion on every issue, the country would be at a perpetual standstill. You do realise the public changes its opinion as often as it changes its underwear, don't you?

As a matter of interest AG2004, how would you respond to a mass migration to this country of Irish men and women living in other countries. Lets say for example all the undocumented Irish in the US and Australia for a start, a few legal migrants returning home, along with a couple of hundred thousand descendants of Irish men and women who left this country in previous years. Say 500,000 over 5 years. Thats bound to have an effect on wage rates for nationals currently residing in the Republic, wouldn't you agree? Have a problem with that? And if not, at what point would you say no more?

arcadegame2004

therecklessone wrote:

Stunning stuff really. Utilise existing employment legislation to protect the rights of immigrant workers, guaranteeing them a minimum income and a safe and healthy workplace. So why the concern for pay rates for nationals? Surely that same legislation will guarantee the minimum wage for an Irish employee? Or do you now think there is a minimum wage we should pay Johnny Foreigner, and a higher minimum wage we should pay "our own"? Sounds discriminatory to me...

Where did I say there should be 2 minimum wages? Nowhere is the answer. But you see, even with a common minimum wage, Irish wages can still be kept down beyond what there otherwise will be because the immigrants from developing countries will always work for less than Irish people, even if that "less" is at the minimum-wage.

Not exactly free market ideology either. When a trade union tries to protect its members from the harsh realities of the market place you're up in arms, but God forbid we'd let some foreigners into the country for fear we'd reduce the pressure on wages seeing as our native workforce is effectively at a point of full employment.

That was one of your many contributions on the privatise Aer Lingus thread. Funny that you want to streamline an airline by cutting staff numbers and reducing the ability of remaining staff to negotiate on a collective basis to maintain wage levels, yet on the other had you're happy to artificially inflate wages through excessive control of immigration.

Well the trade-unions I have criticised are in the public-sector, unlike the vast majority of immigrant workers. I don't really think you have to be in a trade-union to get good pay and working-conditions, e.g., most US multinationals pay well in return for you not being a trade-union. They recognise the demagogery that often hijacks trade-unions. I do favour a free market (usually) with respect to the rights of allowing competition between companies. But I have never claimed to be in favour of allowing human-beings to freely enter the job-market and I have never favoured this, and I never will! Too bad!

If you want your wages to be kept down by foreigners, your entitled to that opinion, even if most would find such an attitude a bit strange.


You're response to the charge that "The PD's mantra should be "profit yes,worker's rights no" was to say

As a matter of interest AG2004, how would you respond to a mass migration to this country of Irish men and women living in other countries. Lets say for example all the undocumented Irish in the US and Australia for a start, a few legal migrants returning home, along with a couple of hundred thousand descendants of Irish men and women who left this country in previous years. Say 500,000 over 5 years. Thats bound to have an effect on wage rates for nationals currently residing in the Republic, wouldn't you agree? Have a problem with that? And if not, at what point would you say no more?

Well I doubt returning Irish migrants would be prepared to work for less, having returned from economies with wages as high or higher than ours. Someone from a country like China with an average wage of $400 per annum, on the other hand, is another matter... There is no comparison. I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

Frank Grimes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Where did I say there should be 2 minimum wages? Nowhere is the answer. But you see, even with a common minimum wage, Irish wages can still be kept down beyond what there otherwise will be because the immigrants from developing countries will always work for less than Irish people, even if that "less" is at the minimum-wage.

How would you propose to stop this from happening then?
By your logic we would have to stop all people from developing countries working here, just in case.
I seem to remember you going on about how great Filipino nurses were during the run up to the referendum. They're from a developing country and I don't believe (I could be wrong) that they're driving down the wages for Irish nurses. Or is that just an exception to your "rule"?

There is no comparison. I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

Even if it was having an adverse effect on the economy?

arcadegame2004

I seem to remember you going on about how great Filipino nurses were during the run up to the referendum. They're from a developing country and I don't believe (I could be wrong) that they're driving down the wages for Irish nurses. Or is that just an exception to your "rule"?

Well that is different because as I have said before, I do not object to using immigrants to fill job vacancies that GENUINELY cannot be filled by Irish and Western EU people, and nursing is unfortunately one of those.

Frank Grimes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well that is different because as I have said before, I do not object to using immigrants to fill job vacancies that GENUINELY cannot be filled by Irish and Western EU people, and nursing is unfortunately one of those.

So it's ok to have them doing the menial work or whatever jobs we or the other white people don't want to do?
Or do you include developing EU countries in your list of subservient countries?

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Where did I say there should be 2 minimum wages? Nowhere is the answer. But you see, even with a common minimum wage, Irish wages can still be kept down beyond what there otherwise will be because the immigrants from developing countries will always work for less than Irish people, even if that "less" is at the minimum-wage.

No, what you have said is you want to limit the rights of immigrants to move from job to job in an effort to keep the wages of nationals at their current levels. You do not wish to see immigrant labour moving from low-paid employment to sectors of the economy where they can earn above the minimum wage. You maintain that the existing employment legislation is sufficient to ensure immigrant labout is not exploited. So you're happy to see non-nationals earn the minimum wage and no more (for who are they to demand a wage increase, in their non-unionised empoyment where they rely on their employer for their work permit?), whilst keeping them from sectors of the economy reserved for EU nationals to maintain an artificial second minimum wage.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I don't really think you have to be in a trade-union to get good pay and working-conditions, e.g., most US multinationals pay well in return for you not being a trade-union.

And as a newly arrived non-EU national on a work permit tied to an employer, what chance would you have of a pay rise?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I do favour a free market (usually) with respect to the rights of allowing competition between companies. But I have never claimed to be in favour of allowing human-beings to freely enter the job-market and I have never favoured this, and I never will! Too bad!

:eek: Too bad! Well, that's put me in my place. Whether you claim to be in favour of allowing immigration to fill the demand for jobs in our economy or not, the fact is it is necessary. Immigration by non-nationals will continue to fuel growth rates that are the envy of our European partners, without such immigration we would be screwed. Deal with it, don't bury your head in the sand.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If you want your wages to be kept down by foreigners, your entitled to that opinion, even if most would find such an attitude a bit strange.

But I don't want my wages kept down, thats the point. I do want to see a figure identified by a government agency every year to help decide a maximum number of non-EU citizens we should allow in every year. And that gives scope for no new entrants in certain circumstances, just as much as it does many new entrants. You see, you favour closing the door, locking it, throwing away the key, and shoving a chair under the handle just in case. I favour allowing people to ring the doorbell, and then deciding ourselves whather there's room or not.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well I doubt returning Irish migrants would be prepared to work for less, having returned from economies with wages as high or higher than ours. Someone from a country like China with an average wage of $400 per annum, on the other hand, is another matter... There is no comparison. I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

Do you know how a market economy operates? You do realise its the not the nationality of job applicants but rather the number of qualified applicants that drive wage rates? Whether you doubt it or not, a massive increase in our educated workforce will have a dampening effect on wages without an increase in the number of available jobs. Current wage rates in the construction industry reflect the shortage of skilled labour. I've many relatives involved in construction, and the money they're receiving at the moment is astronomical. The average plasterer earns more than teachers and junior doctors. My brother-in-law ran his own firm for a while, he was paying the labourers twice what he made a year! Increase the number of qualified applicants to work in the construction industry, and pressure to increase wages will reduce.

Do you think that returning Irish emigrants will sit around with no job until they find a position that pays the wage they believe they should be paid? Cop yourself on sunshine, people have mouths to feed and bills to pay.

Alex27

Let`s say the company A been closed. 50 workers on word permits are to go home. While the company B needs 55 workers (could not find enough local people willing to take the job) and they have to go through the lenghty process in order to bring workers (from non EEA region) in. And there are a number of companies like that.

Now if the work permit would allow one to change his workplace this people could be re employed and the company B would save time and money.

Sometimes workers in question when lost their job are employed in the black market (they hardly pay any taxes) and there is an increase in the numbers of undocumented workers. Then new people brough in (under the current work permit scheme) to fill vacancies and eventually they been let go (there is no employment for life in Ireland) and the cycle repeats itself. Tension, distortion, etc are the likely outcomes if the system are to be operated in a such way in the long term.

The numbers of migrants coming each year under the new sheme can be regulated based on the needs of Irish economy and employment situation at the time. Plus as been mentioned before Ireland might loose it`s competitve edge due to the high wages. So certain adjustment could in fact benefit Irish economy and created a more jobs versus loosing jobs.

Well I doubt returning Irish migrants would be prepared to work for less, having returned from economies with wages as high or higher than ours. Someone from a country like China with an average wage of $400 per annum, on the other hand, is another matter...

A person might agree to work for less when he is empoyed in the black market(e.g a student working more than 20h per week, person overstayed his permission to remain, undocumented person coming from UK.) or tied to one employer (take what we offer or go home).
The person that can change jobs will eventually move on from low paid job to higher paid one or he will get a raise(if they dont want their competitors to employ them ).

Have to say there is alot of decent companies employing non EEA nationals and paying them good wages now as we speak.

There is certain sectors that pays wages near to the minimum yet they pay the same wages to all empoyees perfoming similar functions regardless of the country of origin, etc. And you would not get higher pay from them becouse you are Irish

I would welcome a return of Irish migrants to keep Irish people the majority in their own country.

I wonder why US don`t import anglo saxons from UK Please say who you consider to be Irish? Be specific if possible. Can one become Irish? Perhaps you can address this questions in the new thread since its a bit different topic.

Memnoch

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well that is different because as I have said before, I do not object to using immigrants to fill job vacancies that GENUINELY cannot be filled by Irish and Western EU people, and nursing is unfortunately one of those.

why? because its beneath you?

Really just shut up and go to hell you ignorant racist.

And maybe i will get banned for this, but it will be worth it, becuase you are nothing more than an ignorant racist scumbag.

I hope the irish economy collapses and people like you are forced to look elsewhere for jobs and recieve the same treatment you want to bestow on others.

Once again, go to hell racist biggot. Loosers like you know nothing because they are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and you would deny people the opportunity to work for a better future for themselves and their families for your own selfish petty needs, because you are a coward that is affraid to compete with people that are more skilled and hard working than you.

What a looser.

arcadegame2004

Memnoch wrote:

why? because its beneath you?

Really just shut up and go to hell you ignorant racist.

I'll thank you to stop twisting and distorting what I said:

Well that is different because as I have said before, I do not object to using immigrants to fill job vacancies that GENUINELY cannot be filled by Irish and Western EU people, and nursing is unfortunately one of those.

By this I mean that in recent years, the Irish Health-Service has had a BIG problem trying to attract Irish workers, especially nurses. Hence, this category is one of those that GENUINELY requires immigrant-labour. It is therefore different to those parts of the economy NOT experiencing labour-shortages and hence, fillable by Irish labour. I see nothing racist in that viewpoint of mine but then, there is a minority in this country with very extreme views to the effect that they believe that any questioning of liberal immigration policies is tantamount to Nazism. It isn't. Such namecalling as you have demonstrated above is reflective of a desire to silence alternative viewpoints to yours. Notice that I have never used such language towards others on this forum. I would welcome an apology for your vitriol above! :mad:

And maybe i will get banned for this, but it will be worth it

Then I wish you every success

I hope the irish economy collapses and people like you are forced to look elsewhere for jobs and recieve the same treatment you want to bestow on others.

You hope the Irish economy collapses? Well if that's not unpatriotic then I don't know what the hell is.

Once again, go to hell racist biggot. Loosers like you know nothing because they are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and you would deny people the opportunity to work for a better future for themselves and their families for your own selfish petty needs, because you are a coward that is affraid to compete with people that are more skilled and hard working than you.

Rubbish. Denying peoplke entry to Ireland is not denying someone entry to the First World. Ireland is at the other end of the continent to where persons from the developing world come from. A small country like Ireland with a small tax base cannot possibly be reasonably expected to bear an unquantifiable burden with respect to health-care for hundreds of thousands of extra immigrants. The process has to be under our control and I believe that, whatever about the legalistic minutia that my opponents on this argument may refer to to try to divorce immigration from the citizenship-referendum, the result of that referendum demonstrated similar views to mine among most Irish people.

What a looser.

Sticks and stones!

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

A small country like Ireland with a small tax base cannot possibly be reasonably expected to bear an unquantifiable burden with respect to health-care for hundreds of thousands of extra immigrants.

Hundreds of thousands, based on your wonky maths.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The process has to be under our control and I believe that, whatever about the legalistic minutia that my opponents on this argument may refer to to try to divorce immigration from the citizenship-referendum, the result of that referendum demonstrated similar views to mine among most Irish people.

The result of the referendum in addition with the post-election poll showed that less than 32% of the electorate demonstrated similar views. 32% is far from "most".

Alex27

A small country like Ireland with a small tax base cannot possibly be reasonably expected to bear an unquantifiable burden with respect to health-care for hundreds of thousands of extra immigrants.

Unquantifiable? Well I believe since under the new proposal a certain number of people living outside EEA are to be admitted it`s quantifiable. Burden? How come that person who is working and paying taxes is a burden?

Sick, etc people willing to work for peanuts are coming to Ireland in huge numbers aww

The process has to be under our control

Who are we? And it is under control as we speak and managed by the departmens in charge and the Irish goverment.

Please tell us are you in favor of the present system were work permit are tied to employer? If yes why you are against of enhancing the system as proposed by FAS?

What is control to you? A restriction attached to the work permit so one can`t do any jobs apart cleaning, etc? Can you expand your statement so it can be understood clearly.

Or maybe you would like to come up with a better proposal than FAS one? If so do post it here.

and I believe that, whatever about the legalistic minutia that my opponents on this argument may refer to to try to divorce immigration from the citizenship-referendum, the result of that referendum demonstrated similar views to mine among most Irish people.

What is the legalistis minutia you are refering to? If you are dismissing it by using word whatever please at least quote what are you brushing aside without desire to address?

And please if you can answer the questions asked in the previous post.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

By this I mean that in recent years, the Irish Health-Service has had a BIG problem trying to attract Irish workers, especially nurses.

The reason they did was because if I recall because the wages are absolutly crap for the amount of work+hours nurses were expected to put in.

I see nothing racist in that viewpoint of mine but then, there is a minority in this country with very extreme views to the effect that they believe that any questioning of liberal immigration policies is tantamount to Nazism.

No it is when people like yourself say "Lets keep the romainans, nigerians out because they are spongers/wasters" (sic) is when you get called racist

Notice that I have never used such language towards others on this forum.

Notice that you happly skip over questions people ask that may cause problems in being able to reply to and instead focus on the people calling you names.

You hope the Irish economy collapses? Well if that's not unpatriotic then I don't know what the hell is.

I think he was more suggesting you walk a mile in someones shoes.

A small country like Ireland with a small tax base cannot possibly be reasonably expected to bear an unquantifiable burden with respect to health-care for hundreds of thousands of extra immigrants.

Not even if those immigrants were tax paying, which they would be?

The process has to be under our control

Who is this "our" ? Also you keep clutching onto the referendum as some kind of shield, you have already been told it had nothing to do with Immirgration.

Immigrant wife

I have read this whole debate and am amazed that the person who started it didn't even get his facts straight. The following quote is from Minister McDowell's speech on 10 December 2004 when he announced the possibility of a green card type system being introduced:

"A more structured approach to the selection of migrants may be necessary and the models of "green card" systems in other countries are worth considering. Clearly such systems have benefits, but there are also disadvantages. We must be careful to avoid the introduction of a rigid form of centralised planning of labour needs by the State. Our current system has had the benefit of being directly responsive to the needs of employers. It must also be remembered that, as is the case in other countries where such systems operate, a "green card" system can never deal with more than a small proportion of the total labour migration needs, mainly in the highly skilled area. A "green card" system can not therefore be seen as the total solution to the issue."

It is obvious that the government is only considering green cards for the highly skilled workers who occupy jobs that Irish citizens have not been able to. The only reason this is being invisaged is to try and keep these immigrants in the country as the conditions here for immigrants do not compare favourably with other countries and they leave to go and work elsewhere where their families are accepted.

I use the term accepted because the families of immigrant workers, be they highly skilled or not, are tolerated rather than accepted. The spouses are not allowed to work unless the immigrant holds a Work Authorisation or Work Visa and that only applies to people in the medical, construction and IT sectors as well as third level lecturing staff and researchers. All other immigrant non EU workers hold a Work Permit which has far greater restrictions on it. Although the wives of Work Authorisation holders have since mid 2004 been allowed to work, they still have to apply for a work permit and although they are granted it automatically and the employers don't have to pay for it, many employers still do not want the hassle of having to apply and not being able to employ the applicant until the work permit has been granted. Also once their children leave school any third level education costs an arm and a leg especially if the immigrant had not been resident in the country for three years prior to their child starting their education. Once they finish they then have to apply for work permit which will only be granted in certain employment sectors. This means the child will have to leave Ireland. If the child is over 18 when the family emigrates to Ireland, they may not even be allowed in - especially if they are black! (The Zimbabwean nurse working here who spoke at the Immigrant Council book launch who has been refused a student visa for her 18 year old son because he might overstay his visa, is testament to this, a problem my white daughter did not encounter!) Many other countries accepting highly skilled immigrant workers accept the family unit and give the whole family the ability to work and become part of society. It is primarily because of the difficulties in leading a normal life that their families face in Ireland that highly skilled workers choose not to renew their Work Authorisations every two years but instead move to more accommodating countries.

Thus the government by introducing a "green card" system whereby highly skilled workers and their would be given permanent residence is only looking after its own interests. After all, if the doctors, engineers and architects etc. who all brought their skills to this country free of charge, left the country, would Ireland be able to pay to educate all that it needs. Surely those doctors, engineers etc. who were recruited in their home countries and bring many years of expensive education and invaluable experience with them which has cost the state nothing, should be able to expect to be treated like any other doctor or engineer in the country and not have life made difficult for their families. There is a moral issue here. Ireland surely doesn't want to be known as rip off Ireland in every field!

Redleslie2

Memnoch wrote:

I hope the irish economy collapses and people like you are forced to look elsewhere for jobs and recieve the same treatment you want to bestow on others.

Actually if the economy collapses AG2004 will be looking elsewhere for a generous immigrant friendly welfare state as he's on the scratcher.

BEAT

so what is the news on this, is it going to be voted on?
I am all for it since I dont qualify for a visa and cant find an employer to give me a work permit. I think a greencard would be great for people like me who want to live and work in the country but cant find a way in.
Anyone hear if this proposal is moving forward?

bonkey

Memnoch wrote:

Really just shut up and go to hell you ignorant racist.

And maybe i will get banned for this, but it will be worth it, becuase you are nothing more than an ignorant racist scumbag.

You're right. One week...and I'll be discussing with the other poltiics mods whether or not this should be a permanent ban.

If this type of behavior continues on this thread, the next poster to inflict my wrath gets a permanent ban without question.

I'm getting *really* fed up of the increasing hostility that people seem to think is the appropriate response to opinions they find loathsome or even just ill-informed.

And if - like Memnoch - you think that these outbursts are "worth it", ask yourself who's cause you're supporting? That of the person you spew bile against, who's argument you're only implicitly supporting by demonstrating an inability to argue logically against it, or that which you believe in yourself which you show an inability to argue logically for???

arcadegame2004

Thus the government by introducing a "green card" system whereby highly skilled workers and their would be given permanent residence is only looking after its own interests. After all, if the doctors, engineers and architects etc. who all brought their skills to this country free of charge, left the country, would Ireland be able to pay to educate all that it needs. Surely those doctors, engineers etc. who were recruited in their home countries and bring many years of expensive education and invaluable experience with them which has cost the state nothing, should be able to expect to be treated like any other doctor or engineer in the country and not have life made difficult for their families. There is a moral issue here. Ireland surely doesn't want to be known as rip off Ireland in every field!

We are right to look after our own interests. The first duty of a government is to look after its own citizens first and foremost, and we need not apologise for that. I would not leave Irish patients on trollies to accommodate illegal-immigrants. There can be no excuses for asylum-seekers living in Britain travelling to Ireland. They cannot claim justifiably that there lives depend on travelling across the Irish sea to our shores. Hopefully the system being discussed at EU level of housing future asylum-seekers in safe countries (pending an acceptance or rejection of their applications) closer to their home countries will prevent these unnecessary burdens being placed on our shoulders in future. Asylum-seekers must not be allowed to work pending the final decision on their application because that would give people an economic incentive to claim asylum and therefore hold up the queue for whatever genuine asylum-seekers are in the queue (which admittedly can't be that many given Ireland's geographic location and the Dublin II rules).

Addressing your post more specifically, Michael McDowell is spot-on in what he is saying when he states that a Green card cannot be the panacea that will address all the issues surrounding migrant workers. I am glad that the Government has not yet decided on this and may be reluctant to introduce a full Green card. I would tolerate a situation whereby an Ireland-specific type of Green card were introduced whereby a migrant worker here LEGALLY could move between ijobs experiencing skills-shortages, but these need to be clearly defined and the holder should have to renew his/her card every year according to whatever changes in the scope of "skills-shortage" industries are decided by the Government. A carte-blanche approach of awarding Green cards without restrictions on what jobs the holders can work in would lead to competition with Irish labour in industries not affected by skills-shortages and might fuel racial-tensions and that is not to be desired, either from a race-relations viewpoint or from the perspective of protecting Irish people's well-being (and I'm not just talking about the fatcats that want to employ cheap-labour that is more tolerant of low wages than Irish people!).

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

We are right to look after our own interests. The first duty of a government is to look after its own citizens first and foremost,

I thought you said we lived in a representative democracy?

If thats the case, then the first duty of a government is to represent those people who elected them, and to act in a manner consistent with the wishes of their electorate. If the electorate are willing to make sacrifices to help others, then that is exactly what their elected officials should see about doing.

There can be no excuses for asylum-seekers

...being introduced into a topic about Green Cards and immigration?

I assume thats what you meant to say, or would you like to drop the pretence that we're discussing Green Cards - a topic you started?

As for your "keeping Irish wages down" argument, I'd like to make a small suggestion. I'd like you to take the average wage, the average wage increase and the acerage rate of inflation of the same time-period that you've taken your immgration rates from. I'd like you to project forward the resultant average wage in Ireland, and what the averate wage in Ireland would be were it only to grow by the rate of inflation would be.

When you present those figures, I'd like you to explain how Ireland would be able to be competitive against anywhere in the world in 35 years time, (when we would have lost our majority if we didn't keep foreigners out ). This will be the cost - using your logic - of "keeping our wages up", so I'd like you to actually show that you've thought this through as thoroughly as your population-threatening argument.

If I see you mention your population-skewing figures, wage increases/flattening, or any related argument before you present these figures, unless to withdraw your claims regarding them as being insupportable, I will conclude that you have no interest in actually discussing the points you are making to this thread, and will remove you from it and the forum.

When you're done with that, we'll address the outrageous comments you made regarding the Muslim religion...so I'd be careful about bringing that one back in too.

jc

sackville

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The 80% "Yes" in the Citizenship referendum together with the exit-polls seem to strongly indicate my views are closer to the pulse of the nation than yours, with all due respect.

I am not a racist or a bigot. However, you seem to have a bigoted attitude to people who favour immigration controls.

Yes, you sum up only too well how 'liberals' are out of touch with mainstream opinion- this despite the blatent, concerted and, on the whole, hamfisted attempts at mass conditioning to accept what is obviously primarily a bosses' agenda.

what's most striking about them is the strange combination of naivety combined with their propensity for bullying and defaming. It's as if the their egos were lying dormant all their lives( or al at least since kindergarten) waiting for the first moral bandwagon for them to jump on and then attempt to trounce any opppostion as aggressively or as rudely as they choose with total impunity- shielded by the misplaced use of the concept of tolerance.( and backed by big business interests, even if they they'd be loathe to admin it)

The term 'useful idiot' is never too far from an accurate description of both them.

arcadegame2004

As for your "keeping Irish wages down" argument, I'd like to make a small suggestion. I'd like you to take the average wage, the average wage increase and the acerage rate of inflation of the same time-period that you've taken your immgration rates from. I'd like you to project forward the resultant average wage in Ireland, and what the averate wage in Ireland would be were it only to grow by the rate of inflation would be.

Bonkey, I do not have a crystal ball. I cannot predict with absolute precision what future growth rates etc. are going to be. I cannot prove 100% that I am right, but neither can I be absolutely proven 100% wrong. But that doesn't mean we should not follow the precautionery principle.

You are asking me to provide projections for the next 35 years and this I cannot do. But I can say this: the human desire to travel to other countries for a better life is something which history has proven, e.g. migration from Ireland to the US and UK until the 1990's, and surely does not require statistical evidence to back it up. This is the primary reason I give for my position on this whole Green Card issue. I believe the card would be forged and distributed among illegal immigrants, in the same manner that illegal immigrants used falsified passports to get to Ireland and other EU/Western countries. I provide evidence here that fake US Green Cards are easy to get
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0829/p1s4-ussc.html

There are strident voices for whom no statistics or gut-feeling will ever be enough to persuade of the case persons such as me (and the greater number of the people in this country judging by the referendum) are making. To deny the relevance of the Citizenship referendum to the immigration (and therefore Green Card, since it can only go to immigrants) issue is to fail to see the wood for the trees. The "No" side thought it was a "racist referendum" and constantly brought up immigration in the campaign, thereby contradicting their recent argument that the vote had nothing to do with immigration. To those on this thread who are saying things like "oh well only 32% supported your position due to a 60% turnout", my reply is that this means only 6.04% support your position. I think I am more representative of the public-opinion on looser immigration-controls, and I consider the proposed Green Card as an example of such loosening and therefore relevant to this argument.

I understand that the US Green Card system allows immigrant to move between jobs and residency and citizenship. The Irish people have just indicated their opposition to more liberal citizenship laws, so the Government would be unwise to bring in a system identical to this. If, however, a system can be brought in allowing limited transfer of migrant labour between jobs where the jobs concerned are solely those related to skills-shortages, and the card is made forge-proof, e.g. use iris scans, then I will accept this. As for bringing in their families, I have some concerns about this. A possible way of addressing this would be to allow such relatives in provided they too are confined to job vacancies in industries experiencing labour-shortages. But we must not have a carte-blanche approach whererby all the relatives of immigrant workers can just come here.

I believe there are two extremes: those who want unlimited immigration with no restrictions, and those who want zero migration and to enforce this. I believe my position is somewhere in between these 2. I have never stated that the latter is my position. I say let them in wherer jobs vacancies cannot be filled from Irish people, or where they are EU citizens, though I qualify the latter position by saying that it is contingent on the rest of the EU 15 also letting in all EU citizens.

Immigrant wife

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I would tolerate a situation whereby an Ireland-specific type of Green card were introduced whereby a migrant worker here LEGALLY could move between jobs experiencing skills-shortages, but these need to be clearly defined and the holder should have to renew his/her card every year according to whatever changes in the scope of "skills-shortage" industries are decided by the Government.



You seem to have a total lack of understand as to what the green card will entail. The present work authorisations operate as you describe above. The reason the government wants to introduce a green card system for highly skilled immigrant workers is that the present system is resulting in immigrants becoming disgruntled by the restrictions placed on their ability to live a normal life here and they leave. In order to keep highly skilled workers such as doctors, you have to give them stability so they know they can buy a house and educate their children without the possibility of suddenly not having their work authorisation renewed. The green card should give the worker and their family the right to live and work in Ireland permanently without restrictions. Many countries have this system to attract skilled immigrants and it results in them attracting and retaining top workers.

arcadegame2004

Immigrant wife wrote:

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I would tolerate a situation whereby an Ireland-specific type of Green card were introduced whereby a migrant worker here LEGALLY could move between jobs experiencing skills-shortages, but these need to be clearly defined and the holder should have to renew his/her card every year according to whatever changes in the scope of "skills-shortage" industries are decided by the Government.



You seem to have a total lack of understand as to what the green card will entail. The present work authorisations operate as you describe above. The reason the government wants to introduce a green card system for highly skilled immigrant workers is that the present system is resulting in immigrants becoming disgruntled by the restrictions placed on their ability to live a normal life here and they leave. In order to keep highly skilled workers such as doctors, you have to give them stability so they know they can buy a house and educate their children without the possibility of suddenly not having their work authorisation renewed. The green card should give the worker and their family the right to live and work in Ireland permanently without restrictions. Many countries have this system to attract skilled immigrants and it results in them attracting and retaining top workers.

The purpose of keeping the work-permit in the hands of the employer is obviously intended to accomplish two things:to stop forgeries of work-permits, and to ensure workers are matched to skill-shortage industries. Unless we can be sure we can create a forge-proof Green card/work-permit, the employer should continue to hold it. Regarding allowing the family of immigrants from outside the EU to come here, I think we need to be very careful that the term "family" is not given an unduely liberal definition, i.e. being extended to include adult brothers/sisters.

billy the squid

I didn't say they were all spongers. I actually made the point that it isn't necessarily good to let them work, if they are going to work in industries not experiencing labour shortages thus losing Irish jobs to cheap labour. This WOULD happen and denying it is just being silly. THe present work-permit system should continue keeping the work-permit in the hands of the employer, and not the employee. This is necessary A: to prevent forgery of work-permits, and B: to tue an foreign-employee to a labour-shortage industry where they wont compete with Irish workers on a cheap labour basis.

yes you did arcadegame, you asked which of us was going to pay for their medical attention. we4ll to answer your question, if they are working here then their taxes will pay for it the same way as yours will.

and why are you only objecting to eastern europeans and africans, why not object to british and american people wishing to work here.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well that is different because as I have said before, I do not object to using immigrants to fill job vacancies that GENUINELY cannot be filled by Irish and Western EU people, and nursing is unfortunately one o

non-whites in otherwords.

are western europeans not immigrants too.

arcadegame2004

non-whites in otherwords.

Please don't put words in my mouth. If that was what I felt then I would be complaining about African-Americans and Asian-Americans coming here, which I have NOT done.

yes you did arcadegame, you asked which of us was going to pay for their medical attention. we4ll to answer your question, if they are working here then their taxes will pay for it the same way as yours will.

and why are you only objecting to eastern europeans and africans, why not object to british and american people wishing to work here.

The reason I am not objecting to Westerners coming here is that there is obviously not going to be a huge demand by people from these countries to come to Ireland, because of their living standards and wealth being comparable, and sometimes superior, to ours. That is not the case in the developing world.

Regarding the first part of the quote, our taxes as it stands are not paying for the kind of health-service we need. Why will it be any differernt when the third-world immigrants are paying taxes?

billy the squid

The reason I am not objecting to Westerners coming here is that there is obviously not going to be a huge demand by people from these countries to come to Ireland, because of their living standards and wealth being comparable, and sometimes superior, to ours. That is not the case in the developing world.

the 100,000 westerners, irish in nationality, in our social welfare benefit system are having more of a drain on our economy than any other nationality.

as for coming to ireland to seek a better life, isnt that what the irish did right up to the 1980s?

I personally dont see anything wrong with people coming from developing countries as long as they are willing to work and pay taxes.

oh and one more question, who decides which countries are worthy of us and which countries are not.

and it is a bit of a coincidence that the people in these countries which you would discriminate with are coloured in skin isnt it.

Immigrant wife

[QUOTE=arcadegame2004)

The purpose of keeping the work-permit in the hands of the employer is obviously intended to accomplish two things:to stop forgeries of work-permits, and to ensure workers are matched to skill-shortage industries. Unless we can be sure we can create a forge-proof Green card/work-permit, the employer should continue to hold it. Regarding allowing the family of immigrants from outside the EU to come here, I think we need to be very careful that the term "family" is not given an unduely liberal definition, i.e. being extended to include adult brothers/sisters.[/QUOTE]


Again you display complete ignorance of the difference between a work permit and a work authorisation or work visa. A work permit is held by the employer and has to be renewed every year whereas a work authorisation or work visa is held by the immigrant himself and is valid for two years. It is only given to qualified workers in specified sectors where there are shortages of highly skilled workers. The work authorisation enables the holder to change jobs as many times as they wish during that two years as long as they remain in the designated sector for which they were granted the work authorisation. The work authorisation is issued to people from countries that don't require a visa to enter Ireland eg. Australia, South Africa, America and a work visa issued to people from countries requiring a visa to enter Ireland. The green card is being contemplated by the government because despite giving highly skilled immigrants the ability to change jobs, they are still leaving once their two year period is up because their families i.e. spouse and children,face considerable difficulties living here and they are unable to plan for the future as they do not know whether the work authorisation will be renewed. With the skills they possess they are welcome in almost every country in the world so don't need to stay here when obstacles are put in their way that most other countries don't bother with. It is because the work authorisation is not a good enough incentive to stay that the government is considering a green card system that would encompass the family unit. Immigrants, except for a small minority, are not looking for something for nothing but when they come and bring their skills, but they expect to be treated fairly by the government and when they are not they leave. Its as simple as that. Either you treat them like human beings who are expected to have a family accompanying them or you treat them like machines only there to churn out highly skilled work for the benefit of the Irish who are prepared to give nothing in return.

The green card as far as can be ascertained is only being contemplated for work authorisation and work visa holders and a small number of academics in tertiary institutions who hold work permits. The spouses of these people since mid 2004 are able to work in any field they wish as long as they apply for a work permit which is issued automatically without any payment required. However their children, once they become adults are generally not able to work in Ireland as they have to apply for a work permit which is only given for certain sectors. No administrative or craft positions qualify for a work permit. As the family will be forcibly split apart by staying in Ireland many of the most experience workers opt to move as a family to a country that will allow them to remain together.

Oppose a green card system if you wish but you will be choosing to deprive Ireland of some of its most valued workers.

arcadegame2004

Immigrant wife wrote:

Again you display complete ignorance of the difference between a work permit and a work authorisation or work visa. A work permit is held by the employer and has to be renewed every year whereas a work authorisation or work visa is held by the immigrant himself and is valid for two years.

What is the point in allowing their relatives to come here if they are only going to stay here for 2 years?

You say that we need to make these concessions e.g. allowing people to move between jobs, in order to deter them from going to other Western countries. However, there is clearly tons of demand to get here given the 40,000 work-permits the Government handed out in 2004, 2003 and 2002. I don't accept that we need to liberalise the system beyonf allowing the workers to switch between CERTAIN job-types i.e. in sectors experiencing labour-shortages.

arcadegame2004

billy the squid wrote:

the 100,000 westerners, irish in nationality, in our social welfare benefit system are having more of a drain on our economy than any other nationality.

as for coming to ireland to seek a better life, isnt that what the irish did right up to the 1980s?

Yes but in that case the countries of destination were a hell of a lot bigger than us, i.e. US and Britain. They were in a far better position to pay for their needs and there numbers were still too small to cause large numbers (proportionately) of the US workforce to lose their jobs to cheap labour.

I personally dont see anything wrong with people coming from developing countries as long as they are willing to work and pay taxes.

Entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to disagree. But I ask this question: are you saying you would allow unlimited numbers to come here provided they are willing to work, or would you place any limits on it?

oh and one more question, who decides which countries are worthy of us and which countries are not.

I resent you putting it that way. I will thank you to stop trying to twist what I am saying to make it look racist, e.g. saying I am saying certain peoples are not "worthy". I do not use that sort of language nor have I on this forum or outside. My discrimination is on an economic basis, not colour or creed. I differerentiate between Western First World migration and Third World, developing-world migration. The former is acceptable to me because it is unlikely that a sufficient pull-factor exists to lure too many people to these shores such that would overburden a health-service already creaking at the seems, unlike the latter.

and it is a bit of a coincidence that the people in these countries which you would discriminate with are coloured in skin isnt it.[/QUOTE]

I am not discriminating on the colour-basis. Much of the population of South America is white and I am equally determined to apply the restrictions on non-EU workers to them.